1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Gengarite Tiering Discussion

Discussion in 'Policy Review' started by McMeghan, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion

    Aug 25, 2010
    As promised, the OU Council will now open a discussion thread before deciding weither or not we should quick-ban something.

    As you guys can guess, this is where discussion on the tiering status of the Gengarite will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that the Gengarite should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.

    Yes, I totally ripped off Jabba's post.
    darkie likes this.
  2. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Aug 16, 2011
    I was promised we'd be banning Pokemon rather than formes. :|

    I literally said "Are you ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY SURE?" and got like three yeses.
  3. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Secret Boss Mod

    Oct 13, 2009
    It would be an item ban, not a forme ban. In this case they're basically one in the same, but the technicality is it'd be a ban on the item, which we have precedent with BrightPowder and Soul Dew.
    PK Gaming, Bughouse, cbt and 4 others like this.
  4. Aldaron

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Aug 5, 2007
    I have always said we would be banning the item, so I'm not sure who you asked Zarel >.>

    The only people who could even answer that question are the council members so :X
  5. Style_Dota

    Style_Dota formerly MikeDecIsHere
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 28, 2010
    Just posting the best Pro/Con Ban arguments I found in the thread here for people to gander at:

    Pro Ban:
    Against Ban:
    Pocket, soulgazer, Lady Alex and 2 others like this.
  6. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Jan 2, 2010
    I am personally neutral right now, but from what I've observed, popular opinion is not decisive enough either way to justify a quickban, which should only be reserved for obviously broken things, like Blaziken and Deoxys-N. Thus, I feel the best course of action would just be to include this guy in the round 1 suspect pool, along with other probably-but-not-obviously broken Pokemon (Deoxys-S, etc.).
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  7. TheFourthChaser

    TheFourthChaser #TimeForChange
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Oct 13, 2008
    Im on my phone atm so forgie me for typos and shorter exlplanations.
    I think Mega Gengar is more obviously broken than at least Blaziken. The anti-ban, or at least the Zracknel post, side mentions that you just have to prepare for it in the teambuilding process. How is that done when Gengar just comes in and traps a mon of the players choice? Mgar has two main trapping sets (offensive and perish song) and 140 base speed to abuse and very few, if anything at all, will beat both. Im not huge on the prediction argument since you have to take both players into consideration but with the overabundance of shit like Genesect and Rotom-W, it really isnt that hard to get any pokemon in while holding onto to momentum at all. The big difference here between any pokemon and mgar is that mgar has Shadow Tag, 140 speed, and 170 spa. Basically, Gengar is getting guaranteed kills of the players choice with multiple methods and the few things that would like to switch in and fight it cant, thus freeing up room for anything else on the users team to sweep. Tacitally and strayegically limiting to the point where it feels like a dosadvantage not running it. Also good idea bringong ip genesect and deoxys smb, fuck those guys.
    Fireburn, alexwolf and ryan like this.
  8. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Jan 18, 2009
    I support quickbanning Gengarite.

    Firstly, the argument that "you can prepare for Mega Gengar" is total bull. You can't prepare for something you can't switch out of; it's just not possible. The only way to "prepare" for Mega Gengar is to have 6 Pokemon that can either kill it before it can move or that it can't trap, which is totally nonrealistic and extremely centralizing to a degree not even Ubers has seen. The problem is not beating Mega Gengar, the problem is beating it before it can do its job, which, given its insane stats, insane movepool that includes totally unfair support moves when comboed with Shadow Tag like DBond and Perish Song that the other trappers could only dream of, and excellent typing (which only got better in Gen 6), is impossible.

    Secondly, Mega Gengar isn't even that frail. Attacks that would kill regular Gengar easily fail to OHKO Mega Gengar. Factoring in SR (Mega Gengar spinblocks btw), CB Scizor fails to OHKO with Bullet Punch, Ferrothorn fails to OHKO with Gyro Ball, even 252+ Atk Aegislash fails to OHKO with Shadow Sneak - that is STAB SE priority, for the record. On the whole, it takes hits much better than normal Gengar. Often it doesn't need to take a hit at all with useful Normal/Fighting immunities and an abundance of U-turn/Volt Switch users to give it a free pass into battle.

    I think the reason why a lot of people in the general discussion thread in UT think its underwhelming is because they send it out and expect it to 6-0 teams or do something inane like that by itself. That is not what you use Mega Gengar for. It is not a bulldozer; rather, it is a sniper, used to eliminate one or two or even three high value targets on the enemy team to make way for your teammates. Being able to eliminate basically any target you want on the enemy team without them being able to do anything about it is the ultimate support you can give any Pokemon. At worst, Mega Gengar is looking at a 1-to-1 trade, which is still in the user of Mega Gengar's advantage since the opponent only has ONE turn to react to Gengar before it can trap something - if it escapes your Ttar, which it can do easily with moves like Disable, Substitute, or even just Focus Blast (and if it has FBlast, Tyranitar is the one getting trapped, not Gengar), you are screwed. And to those people who say Mega Gengar is weak, this post presents pretty clearly the sheer amount of Pokemon Mega Gengar can trap or revenge with basically no effort. And that's not even factoring Destiny Bond at all or Perish Trap for anything but Blissey, which Gengar doesn't need to beat (Taunt), and Gastrodon. If you want to argue that we shouldn't quickban Mega Gengar because "Perish Trap doesn't exist!" in a metagame that will become obsolete in one month and for the temporary illegality of a move that is really only necessary to beat freaking Gastrodon of all things, I don't really know what to say to you.

    tl;dr Mega Gengar is extraordinarily uncompetitive and should not be let anywhere near OU. It doesn't need a test - it needs the boot.
  9. Colonel M

    Colonel M Like a Pope
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Aug 5, 2007
    Oh great shitty users like TFC have access to this place?

    J/k bro.

    I posted a lot in the thread in Empty Cave- I mean Uncharted Territory. I have a lot of posts, but this was my main one in the thread that addressed to the fools that counters exist.

    To clarify I know you guys aren't saying it. But there's more information than just that.
    I support a Quick-ban; however, I also do not mind a fair trial for it.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)