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Get on the offense

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by elDino, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Xephyr

    Xephyr

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    The OP still doesn't mention Darmanitan and shit on sun teams D:

    Just because he's UU doesn't mean he doesn't absolutely desecrate most of OU.
  2. Innocent Criminal

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    With Excadrill and Thundurus gone, I've had good success with heavy offense, and a combination I find particularly effective is Deo-S + Wobb + Cloyster. However, I feel like the set in the analysis isn't optimal in the current metagame, and this one has worked much better for me :

    Cloyster @ Life Orb
    EVs :12 SpA / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
    - Shell Smash
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rock Blast
    - Hydro Pump

    244 Speed EVs let it outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Hydro Pump is vastly superior to Razor Shell as it OHKOes Scizor, Skarmory and Metagross. Even with not defensive investment or White Herb, it only takes around 60% from Scizor, Conkeldurr and CBNite's priority after the defense drop.

    Deoxys-S sets up SR to break Skarmory's sturdy and prevent the opponent from setting up their own. Behind Reflect, Cloyster can also set-up on virtually every physical attacker lacking a SE STAB.

    While the Standard Wobbuffet invests heavily in speed to take advantadge of walls, a bulkier 28 HP / 252 Def / 228 SpD Bold spread seems more fit to heavy offense. Wobbuffet easily removes Ferrothorn from the game (by switching into an attacking move and encoring it) as well as scarfers and priority users : it takes no more than 30% from CBZor's BP and OHKO back with Counter. By switching it into other troublesome pokemons, opponents are put in a lose-lose situation : either they attack and lose their precious check, or they don't and give Cloyster a free set up, as Encore lasts three whole turns against faster opponents and Icicle Spear breaks through substitutes.

    The downside is that you only have 4 offensive pokemons and need careful planning to avoid wasting screen turns on Wobbuffet, but its effectiveness at removing counters and giving free turns is definitely worth it.
  3. surly

    surly

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    Thanks for the reply - looking at your team tough it shows that you use a set of 4 physical and 2 special sweepers ... is there a reason why you're not using a straight 6 physicals or 6 specials team?

    Running a team with both types included seems like you would be forced to switch more often (=loosing tempo advantage). Also, when you focus on one direction, you're basically playing 6 vs 5 imo - e.g. they pack a Skarmony and Blissey as their main physical and special walls while you're playing a team full of physicals you can more or less ignore Blissey. However, if you play a mixed team both of them become relevant again.

    Just my point of view though ;)
  4. elDino

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    So you're saying you should only run a team that's purely physical or special? Most teams use both kinds of sweepers as to beat force out counters and cause residual damage. For example, Choice Specs Latios can be paired with a Pokemon like Scizor, as they both like to switch in on each others counters. E.g., Latios comes in and the opponent switches to Blissey to take the Draco Meteor. Blissey then takes damage from Stealth Rock and the Draco Meteor, which forces it to recover as Latios switches to Scizor. Scizor can then U-turn out of the incoming Gliscor switch in to Latios, and Latios can then fire off another Draco Meteor at the Blissey. Both the defensive Pokemon get slowly weakened until one of the offensive Pokemon can break through and sweep through their counters.

    That's why having a mix can be good. Having a team that's all physical or special will often have trouble if the opposing team packs a few solid walls. Going mixed is virtually always the best option...
  5. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    Well, by running all physical / all special, you can overload the counters. For example, running something like SD Scizor / SD Terrakion / SD Luke / DD TTar lets you overload their common counters, such as Gliscor, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Tangrowth, and Slowbro thereby allowing the other Pokemon to easily clean up the team due to the other team not having a counter to the remaining 3 Pokemon.
  6. gookie

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    It sounds good on paper, but going all physical/special lacks versatility in utility moves and coverage, it also makes your team a lot more predictable and leaves you susceptible to more things.

    Also you'll have trouble with your team being unable to force other stuff out, unless your movesets are particularly creative, e.g., an example situation would be the SD Terrakion you mentioned, unless it's packing rock gem it has no chance of ohkoing the standard Gliscor, and you'll lose it to EQ, in addition you can't switch anything else in on your team to force it out. This situation forces you to play really aggressively and continuously sac your pokemon, and this harkens back to my earlier point, it makes you predictable.
  7. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa a choir master sings sharp so others hit the right note
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    Doesn't matter whether a team is predictable or not. Your argument about creative movesets applies to every single team with the advent of team preview period

    I can't comprehend what you mean by lack of utility. I guess we don't have any... phazing? What are you getting at?

    As for coverage, boosted dragon moves have perfect coverage for all intents and purposes as far as anyone should be concerned. Also gliscor's eq isnt a 100% certain ko on terrakion. Gliscor is weak as shit.

    Playing aggressively is always advantageous, the pressure will be on your opponent which will lead to mistakes. As for sacrificing, it is an integral part of every style of play and is unavoidable.

    A better reason to dislike heavy offense is:

    1. its easy to mess up because there is no opportunity to scout movesets (though team preview helps heavy offense make better guesses)
    2. Once you mess up it may be hard to regain momentum, and the complete loss of a sweeper is often too much of a disadvantage to overcome
    3. Using moves like outrage can lead to you getting counter swept, but there is no alternative
    4. Great reliance on speed, so anytime you are slower or can't move first youre screwed
    5. giant weaknesses to gimmicks like trickroom and tailwind, even focus sash pokemon or sturdy pokemon.


    Also any offense that isnt hazards+5 set-up sweepers can just be said to be an offensive team. hazards+ 5 sweepers is called heavy offense, stathakis is generally credited for naming the style that originated with him.
  8. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Who cares about our lack of status, phazing, or whatever? If you want to do that go play a more balanced or stall playstyle. Offense is about punching holes in everything and I mean everything you come by, not about going all "Oh, I need to burn his Dragonite, poison his Volcarona, lalalalallalalallaa...."

    No. On offensive teams, you should be focused on KILLING that Dragonite, and KILLING that Volcarona, and punching holes in your opponent's walls. There's absolutely no room for Whirlwind on an offensive team because phazing is not the point of running an offensive team.
  9. gookie

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    I was arguing about going all physical / special.

    My argument about creative movesets was about standard pokemon on your team being unable to force out the same pokemon by switching in, because your pokemon all have the same counters. I'm not saying you can't have all physical and not have pokemon that are all cockblocked by the same thing, I'm saying that they'll be a lot more similar and the aforementioned situation is more likely to occur.

    By utility I was mainly getting at priority, which is mainly physical based, and you'll be most likely missing out of if you go pure special.

    My gliscor example was an example, replace with slowbro then.

    Playing aggressively is not always advantageous, especially if you're forced to - this equates to make predictions, which can always go wrong.

    Sacrificing plays a much larger part in heavy offense than bulky offense and definitely stall; sacrificing's presence and unavoidability doesn't mean the degree to which it is necessary is dismissible.

    Dragon is pretty universal I agree, but STAB dragon distribution is so that you're forced to run a very specific type of team if you want two or more dragons, i.e., enter the dragon / variants of dragmag.
  10. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I strongly dislike this statement. ANY style you play no matter what it is - whether it be stall, U-turn offense, or offense, requires prediction. It's part of the game.
  11. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa a choir master sings sharp so others hit the right note
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  12. gookie

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    You're missing my point man, I'm merely arguing for the diversity offered by having both physical and special over either one. If anything, I'm merely reiterating elDino's point for ssbm.

    It's not that walls cannot be forced out, it's more that they'll be harder to be if you tend towards a single attacking spectrum.

    Ok, pure special hyper offense is not very viable, my point anyway.

    My point about examples is that it is as it is, an example, you understand the point it is meant to convey and do not take it out of context. An example is specific, and after checking the calcs neither Slowbro nor Gliscor ohko's with their stabs; I picked a poor example. Let's have a new one: lucario vs slowbro, let's say your team is all physical, slowbro scalds - your team risks a burn (you can argue lum, fire physical, water veil, blah blah) all I'm getting at is that if you have special / physical you don't fear specific things so much, e.g., reflect, burns.

    If you're forced to play aggressive it means that you can't go on the defensive, this comes back to fearing switches and forcing sacrifices for yourself. This forces you to attack more and switch less, forcing predictions (I realize hyper offense is all about not switching but I don't think that is viable this gen anyway, it's much easier to pack resistances / checks on offensive 'mons, and that will be much easier if you go physical / special).

    My point about sacrificing was the degree to which it plays on a certain type of team; you can dismiss an argument about it being non-essential to rudimentary pokemon, but you cannot dismiss how instrumental sacrifice is to a team in its effectiveness. Basically, if a team is based around playing aggressive and sacrificing, it is much more liable to lose from a single misplay than one that doesn't.

    Also, LucaroarkZ - don't quote out of context, please. There really isn't any point or meaning left if you do.
  13. That Noob

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    The main point of HO is to overload your counters, a mix is NOT HO and will give stall teams a LOT easier time. On Luke vs Slowbro, you use Crunch/ES/Swords Dance as he scalds and sac Luke to weaken slowbro; that's the whole point. Using your logic, an stall opponent has a heavily weakened 15 % hp gliscor that just KOed your scizor. Now you send in your Latios and you lose all your momentum as they swap their heavily injured gliscor for a brand new chansey. This is the point of HO: to keep the momentum flowing until a sweeper breaks through their defense. Also, I would argue that while a misplay can cost you, a misplay is a lot less common in HO where basically you set up screens and hazards and then keep attacking the enemy.
  14. Eggbert

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    If you team is built so that nothing can set up on you, you won't be swept very often at all. Stall is probably swept more than hyper offense since most stall members are set up bait where hyper offensive mons are very difficult to set up on. Worse comes to worse, you always have LO bullet punches and extreme speeds to fall back on. Also, special hyper offense is viable. The only mons that set up hazards against HO teams are teams with things like Tyranitar that you need to play it safe and reflect on first. Tentacruel should never get toxic spikes up. Blissey is also breakable if you prepare for it.

    Regarding your Slowbro example, you should also be prepared for the top physical walls. Ie you know everyone runs Gliscor / Skarm / Tangrowth / Slowbro / Jellicent so you should have mons that can set up on them. Also I think a team should have some lum berry users. LO is better on Scizor who can check things with BP. Lum is better on Nite and Haxorus as many rely on status to stop them.
  15. Drifloon

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    What is the best type of offense?

    - Heavy offense will always do the best in this metagame, as long as the player knows when to make switches and keeps their prediction going. Honestly, heavy offense is probably one of the hardest styles to use due to the fact that one wrong prediction will be a huge detriment to you, but if you can pull off the double switches and predictions, you'll be able to do real well. Hyper offense is also a good style, but breaking down walls can be a bit tough especially when the wall is like a Slowbro/Tangrowth core where they can keep regenerating.

    How does offense do in the current metagame?
    Very well, with the advent of Excadrill leaving, offense has become a viable playstyle again. Pounding walls with continuous attacks still makes it hard for them to retaliate. The speed tiers also aren't messed up anymore and you don't have to overprepare for sand teams as much. Also, Deoxys-S is singlehandedly the best pokemon on any Offensive team besides maybe bulky offense.

    What issues are there with offense?
    If you lack the raw muscle to punch through stall teams, they will cause huge problems. Since offensive teams usually rely on many of the same kind of pokemon/stacking to break through a wall, stall usually consists of more than one wall and offense will be easily torn apart. Still, stall is for pussies offense can rip through stall if the walls our taken down using lures like SD Haxorus.
    How does each playstyle fair against the others?
    Don't really understand the question, so I'll pass.
    What combinations of offensive Pokemon work well?
    Stacking fighting types is really, really good. Terrakion+Mienshao+Conkeldurr forms a really well bulky offensive/Hyper offensive/Defensive core.
  16. Myzozoa

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  17. gookie

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    Well it seems like we're on the same page then?

    @That noob, hypothetical situations are great and all but you can argue in the opposite direction for your definition for HO: packing the same kind of pokemon leaves you weak to an opposing scarfer or faster pokemon. Furthermore, the advent of regenerator slowbro / tangrowth and protect + poison heal gliscor makes it a lot more difficult to break certain threats, not to say it can't be done. Additionally, this brings me back to my difficulty of switching in, let's say you have luke out and they bring in jellicent, you don't have crunch, forcing you to switch in on a potential burn / taunt; this problem is almost mitigated if you chose to run a mix of attacking spectra.

    Also I think HO can be a mix of physical / special, just that they all need to have set up moves and each pokemon can be a 'win condition'. You can easily have enough pokemon to overwhelm both sides of the defensive spectrum as well.
  18. That Noob

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    HO is defined as 5 set up sweepers on one end of the spectrum, so no to your last point. Also, I love arguments so this is pretty cool lol. Ok, in HO you want 5 sweepers with similar counters like SD Luke, sd scizor, dd tar, double dance terrakion all on one team. Knowing that gliscor counters you, sd luke and dd tar will both usually use ice punch, and gliscor will have a hard time countering anything but double dance terrakion now. also, in luke vs jelli, unless they bring in jelli for free you can do the condemned thing and switch; also if luke is on low hp you can poke it with ice punch and bring in another sweeper to ensure you haven't lost much momentum. If you had a latios in the wings, you could switch to that and eat the scald, but then they could switch in their blissey. Plus, you're using a hypothetical situation too =p.
  19. gookie

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    Well at this point we're just arguing semantics really; a case of agreeing to disagree.
  20. ssbbm

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    HEAVY OFFENSE

    INTRODUCTION:
    Heavy Offense, also commonly referred to as HO or Dual Screens Offense, is the most offensive style in Pokemon possible.

    It has a simple concept: set-up screens or hazards, and then use Pokemon with similar counters on the team to quickly set-up and weaken the opponent's counters (often requiring many sacrifices) before easily sweeping through the weakened opposition. By following this simple concept, HO teams eliminate the need to switch, and thus, the need to predict. This makes HO teams the most reliable teams; however, this does not mean that HO teams are "mindless" at all. HO teams require possibly the longest long-term planning skills of any type of team.

    Despite the time it takes to learn how to play HO successfully, HO is probably one of the most satisfying teams to play with - not only do they have very few "unwinnable" match-ups, they also end matches incredibly quickly and are, for the most part, unaffected by hax.

    THE CONCEPT OF MUTUAL COUNTERS:​

    One of the most common fallacies that most beginners to Pokemon suffer from is the idea that all teams should be "Physical Wall / Special Wall / Physical Sweeper / Special Sweeper / Spiker / Rapid Spinner". While a team that has that form could be effective, it is hardly necessary to run such a team to be successful.

    On HO teams, it is almost necessary to run either all Special or all Physical Sweepers. (The metagame is a lot more welcoming to Physical Sweepers at the moment.) This is because running sweepers of the same spectrum means that the Pokemon that wall your team are halved - an all Physical team will only have to deal with Physical Walls, and an all Special team will only have to deal with Special Walls.

    The majority of Bulky Offense teams will only carry one Physical Wall or one Special Wall, and Stall teams will run three Physical or three Special Walls at most. This means that there is only one Pokemon on a Bulky Offense team must be killed for your team to be able to sweep, and it means that Stall basically starts out at a 6-3 disadvantage!

    Although the previous statement was a gross oversimplification, it illustrates a very good point - by not mixing sweepers, it puts a lot more pressure on your opponent to maintain the health of a few Pokemon, while you can happily sacrifice all of your Pokemon just to weaken a few Pokemon because you are guaranteed a sweep if those few Pokemon are weakened or KOed.

    A very good example of this idea of mutual counters is through a common HO core of SD Scizor and DD Haxorus. DD Haxorus is walled (and even then, not completely) by very few Pokemon; its main counter is Skarmory. By running SD Scizor, Skarmory will be forced to switch in to wall it, only to see that it will fall at the hands of a +2 LO Superpower. Even if Scizor dies to a Brave Bird, Skarmory will be weakened to the point of being unable to wall Haxorus anymore, and Haxorus will be able to sweep the opponent's team.

    MOMENTUM:​

    In Pokemon, one of the most important (yet one of the hardest to define; see: Tomohawk) concepts is "Momentum". Momentum, is, most simply, control of the game. Although momentum is quite intangible, its effects are quite obvious - momentum is seen through weather control, hazard control, and, most importantly for non-weather HO teams, free turns.

    Heavy Offense is built on the idea that the opponent should have no free turns; if the opponent has free turns then that means that they are not pressured enough and that they will be able to recover from your attacks - it also means that they might be able to set-up and sweep you. Additionally, HO thrives on having free turns - each free turn is a turn of set-up that gives another opportunity to weaken a wall or sweep the opponent's team.

    However, it is not enough to have a free turn; it is important to capitalize on each turn, or else all the momentum will be lost, and the opponent will be able to respond to your attacks. HO is all about controlling momentum so that the opponent will not be able to recover to your attacks. Furthermore, you should be the aggressor, not your opponent. Your opponent should be forced into a defensive playstyle where they must respond to you, as that is the playstyle that HO thrives against.

    HOW TO MAINTAIN MOMENTUM:

    As talked about above, momentum is quite important. The question is, how do we maintain it? How do we not allow our opponents any free turns? The answer is simple; just keep on pounding at your opponent with attacks, and never let up. Never switch; to switch is to allow your opponent a possibly deadly free turn.

    Obviously, it would be stupid to just keep attacking an opponent if your attacks do barely anything, as it would mean that your opponent could just set-up on you and sweep you; for example, attacking a Gyarados repeatedly with a Caterpie will just allow it to set-up to +6/+6 and sweep you. Therefore, it is essential while team-building to pick Pokemon that can threaten basically any Pokemon; it is almost impossible (and quite stupid) to set-up on a DD Haxorus as there is no Pokemon which Haxorus does not threaten - it is in your opponent's best interest to attack Haxorus.

    Even if you do run into a situation where you might not be able to threaten the opponent' Pokemon (for example, you have a +1 Lucario with Close Combat / Extremespeed / Ice Punch in against a Bulky Gyarados), often times, it is beneficial to not switch and let Life Orb recoil take its toll; if you are at 15%, you can simply Close Combat twice of Close Combat + Extremespeed instead of switching; this way, you dent Gyarados while being able to switch at the same time.

    After you sacrifice your Pokemon, you should be able to switch into another Pokemon that has a favorable match-up. This gives you a free turn to set-up while making sure that the opponent has had no free turns; you have maintained momentum.

    PRIORITY:
    Obviously, there will be some times that you will not be able to stop a Pokemon from setting up against you, or, alternatively, an opposing Pokemon is faster than all of your team and has a strong move that none of your Pokemon resist (for example, LO Latios or Specs Jolteon). Thankfully, the majority of these Pokemon are quite frail; therefore, it is possible to overcome these threats with the power of priority.

    The two most common priority users seen on HO teams at the moment are Scizor and Lucario. Between the two of them, all threats should be revengeable.


    Scizor's powerful Bullet Punch allows him to revenge a huge list of threats - this list includes Terrakion, Scarf Tyranitar, Latios, Latias, Salamence, and Dragonite. Note that many of these threats require prior damage to be KOed by Bullet Punch.


    Lucario's powerful Extremespeed allows him to revenge such threats as Tornadus, Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon, and Starmie after prior damage.

    LONG TERM THINKING:
    As opposed to the HO of 4th Generation, 5th Generation HO has gained one major boon: Team Preview. Team Preview allows you to analyze the opponent so you can see which Pokemon you need to eliminate and what Pokemon you need to be careful of; this allows you to generate a plan of what you can sacrifice and what you need to keep alive. The main thing about long-term thinking is that by Turn One, you need a plan of how you will sweep the opponent's team, and you should be able to visualize how the end-game should be.

    COMMON PROBLEMS WITH HEAVY OFFENSE:

    Although HO is an incredibly good playstyle, it still has some obvious problems.

    Dragonite is probably one of the most difficult Pokemon for HO to deal with; if the opponent gets it in with Multi-Scale intact, then it will most likely rip through your team as it will be able to boost up to +1/+1 and go on a rampage. As long as you have Stealth Rock and / or screens up, then this Pokemon shouldn't be too hard to deal with.

    Naturally speedy Pokemon also hurt HO teams a lot; HO teams love to outspeed the opponent so that they can attack first, but fast Pokemon don't allow HO teams to do so. The main way to deal with these Pokemon is through powerful priority and through tanking hits under screens (or with naturally bulky Pokemon such as Tyranitar). However, despite these methods of dealing with them, fast Pokemon are one of the main reasons HO is so difficult to master.

    Such "anti-metagame / gimmick" strategies such as Tailwind or Trick Room are possibly the hardest matchup for Heavy Offense teams. They complete deny the strategy of HO of outspeeding the other team, and, to top it off, Tailwind and Trick Room teams tend to have incredibly strong firepower with which to blow holes in HO teams. The best way to deal with this is to try and prevent Tailwind or Trick Room from being set up through use of Taunt, or, if this is impossible, to capitalize on the free turn you get by them setting up Tailwind / Trick Room and making them sacrifice their Pokemon.


    MATCHUPS OF HEAVY OFFENSE IN FIFTH GEN:

    Heavy Offense vs Stall:

    This is probably Heavy Offense's most interesting match-up, in my opinion. The main focus of Heavy Offense is to eliminate the few walls and sweep; in matches against stall, defeating that key wall will allow you to win 100% of the time as you do not have to worry about being revenged. Heavy Offense should always win this, in my opinion, unless it is misplayed. DD Haxorus behind screens tends to be amazing at this; Stall teams absolutely have no check to Haxorus besides Skarmory or Ferrothorn, and they are both beaten by Haxorus if screens are up.

    Heavy Offense vs Bulky (Rain or Sand) Offense:

    You should win this almost as much as you win stall. The only variation is that these type of teams tend to run revenge killers, so it is important to use revenge killers as set-up after they revenge a Pokemon. SD Lucario tends to dismantle Bulky Offense single-handedly.

    Heavy Offense vs Sun Offense:

    This match-up is actually in the favor of Sun Offense, unless you run something like DD Tyranitar on your Heavy Offense team. Since sun teams generally hate Stealth Rock, keeping Stealth Rock up works very well in assuring your victory. Also, running Dragons on your team also helps as most Sun teams cannot handle +1/+1 Dragons.

    Heavy Offense vs Volt-Turning Teams:

    Volt-Turning teams are actually handled quite similarly to Bulky Offense. Strong Rock types tend to hurt Volt-Turning teams quite a bit, and generally the only Dragon check will be Scizor, so it is quite easy to over load it with strong Outrages.

    Heavy Offense vs Heavy Offense:

    This is a match-up that comes down to speed ties and prediction, basically. You can hope to win this through superior long-term planning, but it's really hard as you both will just be firing off attacks and, oftentimes, hoping that you win the speed tie. Remember that if you set-up that you will most likely win, and capitalize on that fact.
  21. Eggbert

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    ok hyper vs heavy it doesn't matter. We know what he is referring to. Great post, you covered most of the points very well.

    I'd like to add that the biggest disadvantage hyper offense has is weakness to scarfers and priority. Since the concept of hyper offense is to weaken counters, being revenge killed before you hit anything is really bad. Teams with excessive scarfers and priority are tough to deal with at teams, even with screens. Another thing you might what to add are the physical special walls you have to break and how to prepare for them. Physical you have Quagsire (the strongest physical wall), Skarmory, Gliscor, Jellicent, Tangrowth, Slowbro. Special is Quagsire, Blissey / Chansey. I think this should be made into an article to clear up alot of confusion (and the insane amount of teams running choice items + screens which makes me cringe)
  22. gbagcn

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    I prefer choice band lucario over life orb lucario. I really can't stand the hp loss due to life orb. The extra attack power from choice band really shouldn't be underestimated and you can free up another moveslot instead of having swords dance. I hate how using swords dance discourages you from switching since I like to switch alot. Also I have had some good luck using earthquake on lucario since it counters tentacruel and jirachi well especially since they don't expect it. Its probably not a good idea on a swords dance set though.
  23. Adamant Zoroark

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    I'm sorry, but Choice Band Lucario just sounds like a bad idea. If I recall correctly, Lucario does not have access to U-turn nor Volt Switch. A Magnezone can easily come right on in when you're choice-locked into Crunch, and kill Luke with HP Fire. If you're going to use a Choice Bander, use Scizor or Infernape. They just do CB better in every way.

    Also, virtually any attack aimed towards Lucario is going to OHKO it, so it's not like the HP loss due to Life Orb matters or anything.
  24. gookie

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    CB Lucario isn't amazing, but not for the reasons you described, it's because CB Terrakion is better in most aspects, making up for a lack of priority and steel typing by having better bulk, auxiliary stab, more speed, and more power.

    However, you could probably pair CB Lucario with SD Terrakion for some decent results; it's definitely not a bad set in its own right, especially because of access to strong priority + stab.
  25. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Field Ranger

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,015
    I advise you guys don't get caught up in the terminology, as it's pretty much 100% arbitrary. when i use the word "heavy offense" or "hyper offense" or even "offense" these all mean the same thing to me, that I'm trying to kill the other guy before he kills me. that's the bottom line. pretty much everything ssbbm said I agree with and it is extremely informative, but it might be a tad specific.



    here are 2 concepts that I think go into having a good pokemon team:


    1. make the opponent respond to you. this goes back to Surgo's original D/P threat list, where he made a disclaimer that you should always be trying to make the opponent respond. He said that in gen IV, there were simply too many different threats to play a reactive play style consistently, hence the better idea is to pose the threat than react. in gen V, there are even more threats and the only really notable defensive pokemon gained were burungeru and ferrothorn, off the top of my head.

    NOTE: this does not mean stall is bad, but rather that the good stall is going to be the aggressive kind that gets its hazards up quickly and eliminates wall breakers quickly. in other words, the kind that doesn't just sit around waiting to get smashed. if you look at the greats, most notably IPL in my eyes, you'll see that this is an underlying theme.



    2. have a unified purpose that every member of the team contributes to. this is a concept that is true of most real-time strategy games, with the easiest parallel to draw being various tcg decks. you don't just throw a bunch of strong cards together: they must work towards a purpose. similarly in pokemon, you will do much better if your pokemon help each other in some way. they don't necessarily have to lead to one pokemon's sweep or anything like that, but they should help each other out. i.e. if you have dual screen deoxys as a lead, you should have lots of pokemon that like not taking much damage for a few turns. conversely, if you have dual hazards deoxys, you should have lots of pokemon that hit hard on things that stay in, forcing the opponent to switch a lot and take maximum extra damage. little things like this cause your team to work better as a unit.

    additionally, if you fulfill #2, you are far more likely to fulfill #1 because your opponent is forced to try and respond to your play unless they let you carry it out without a hitch, in which case you should win.



    3. don't 100% rely on only one way to win. if your team makes life perfect for cm rest sleep talk suicune, but can't win without him, and your opponent just happens to carry raikou, celebi, roar vaporeon, explosion heatran, and other things that make his life difficult, then you are going to lose. thus, your team should be able to win in multiple ways, not just one. in the above example for instance, if heatran exploded on your suicune, that might be okay if you can toxic spikes them to death. toxic spikes also help suicune a lot by stalling stuff. oh hey, suddenly you're not lost without suicune.



    these concepts are I think pretty basic and apply to all pokemon teams, not just offense. keep in mind, there are no hard and fast rules. if you blindly follow rules, you only limit your own creativity. thus, I encourage you guys to question every "rule" that I or anyone else tells you about pokemon.


    anyways, how does this all apply to offense? well, I think ssbbm covers a lot of that, but remember, you should never blindly follow rules but always be questioning them. anyways, I'll give a little summary of how I think the above concepts apply to offense.



    1. make the opponent respond to you. well, I think this is where a lot of the controversial things I say come from. like, I don't like choice scarfs, because they lock you into a move without very much power attached to it. this means your opponent can very easily come in and take advantage of you with a resist or bulky pokemon, forcing you to switch around and be on the back foot. basically, I think the less you have to switch, the better, because switching takes a turn where you could be doing something towards winning and spends it changing pokemon instead. obviously, you have to switch, so you shouldn't just stay in all the time, but if you make your team so that you don't have to switch as much, you can spend more of your turns smashing things with strong attacks that your opponent has to respond to.

    the easiest way to not have to switch is to use pokemon that set up. by nature, they don't like switching. they can switch moves, and usually because of boosts they are very powerful and don't give away many free turns. of course, there are other ways as well. I'm sure you guys all know how specs tornadobro works. flying is barely resisted by anything, so shooting off a huge attack that isn't resisted by much coming off of fast speed, you don't have to switch much. you can just spam hurricane. that's just one example. strong u-turners fit the bill too. I mean, if you hit an opponent with a cb u-turn from scizor, you are switching but you are still using a strong attack, and if they switched that means you can go to a pokemon that beats them. you haven't wasted any time, and you are still forcing the opponent to respond to you. that's the bottom line. keep the opponent on the back foot and you will win.


    2. have a unified purpose. I think this one is pretty easy for offense, since the purpose is always "kill the opponent fast." to do this, you have to do things like kill walls and kill revenge killers. this is where the "all physical" or "all special" concept comes from. if you use a bunch of special sweepers, and your opponent's team is a bunch of physically bulky pokemon and blissey, then once you kill blissey you are hitting the rest of the opponent's pokemon on their weaker defense stat, helping you kill them faster. thus, all of your pokemon suddenly become really dangerous to that team, because only blissey can handle them. that means no one pokemon is supremely valuable to your team in this battle, because you can do huge damage with all of them. thus, if you sacrifice two guys to do, say, 60% to blissey, and then force her out and take more sr/spikes damage when she comes back in, she can't handle the next guy. so, even though you've lost 2 pokemon to only do a little more than half to one pokemon, suddenly you are at the advantage because blissey can no longer handle the rest of the team, and the rest of the team is short pickings afterwards. if you use lots of different types of attackers, then your opponent is more likely to have an answer to every pokemon you have, meaning you have to kill lots of pokemon before you can win, rather than just one or two.

    this doesn't mean that you have to go all physical/all special though. if you have a bunch of pokemon that are very difficult to counter outside one or two answers that counter them all, then you slap those all on a team. let's say, in gen IV, you have dd gyarados, agility empoleon, life orb heatran, dd salamence, and other pokemon that are all countered by defensive water types. your opponent might carry two at most. once you overpower them by sacrificing your guys to do damage, you will make short work. note that this hypothetical team has 2-3 physical and 2-3 special sweepers (disclaimer: this is all off the top of my head so if the team sucks/is incomplete, don't judge me, it's just for an example).



    3. don't rely on one way to win. this is also easy for offense, since almost every pokemon you use will be able to do a lot of damage quickly and thus win games. a nice rule of thumb that I like is once you have your team of 6 pokemon, take out one pokemon and turn it into a team of 5 pokemon. could it still work decently well in a hypothetical 5v5 metagame? do this with every pokemon, and if you can answer yes for every guy on the team, then you know you are really not relying on anyone. that should also show you that sometimes, if called for, it's ok to sacrifice a guy for the good of the team, even if he's not "death fodder" (i.e. weakened and useless).

    again, that's not a rule by any stretch of the imagination, and a team is not necessarily bad if it can't do without a pokemon. it's just a little exercise I like to do.



    If you apply these concepts to offense, you get a type of offense that doesn't switch much and tries to force the opponent to react, as opposed to the kind that facilitates maneuvering around the opponent with revenge killers and defensive pokemon. this is a good type of offense too, just different. to differentiate the two, I used to call the former "heavy offense," referring to the idea that it skips the bells and whistles and focuses more heavily on hurting things. some of my friends called it "hyper offense," with the same idea in mind. we shortened it to "HO" because that's easier to type fast. the bottom line is there is no official terminology. at the end of the day it's all just offense. this take on it has been around long before me as well, so I'm not trying to take credit for naming it or whatever.


    anyways, if you apply these concepts, this sometimes means lots of setup sweepers since they switch less. if you have enough, dual screens fit well. thus, the concept of "dual screens + 5 sweepers." I wouldn't say that type of team is the definition of "heavy offense," just an example.




    sorry for the length of the post. I could probably make it more concise or format it and make it pretty but I can't be assed right now. thanks for reading.

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