1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Ubers Giratina-O

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Muk, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    [​IMG]

    Overview
    ########

    Giratina-O's immense base 150 HP and decent base 100 defenses, coupled with its six resistances and three immunities, grant it ample opportunity to switch in and wreak havoc with its deceptively powerful Griseous Orb-boosted STAB moves. Due to its neutrality to Stealth Rock and immunity to all other entry hazards courtesy of Levitate, Giratina-O has no trouble assuming the role of a reliable Defog user for its team. Moreover, it boasts the ability to defeat nearly every common Taunt user in Ubers one-on-one, and it cannot be trapped by the ubiquitous Mega Gengar. Finally, its ability to check many of the dangerous physically based boosting sweepers within the Ubers metagame, as well as its access to invaluable utility moves including Shadow Sneak, Dragon Tail, and Will-O-Wisp, should not be understated.

    While Giratina-O's Ghost-type STAB is now much more potent offensively as Steel-types no longer resist it, the introduction of the Fairy typing and the buff to Dark-type moves make Giratina-O more vulnerable to super effective hits than ever. Additionally, Giratina-O's average Speed allows opposing Pokemon with a super effective STAB move to easily force it out, and its lack of reliable recovery outside of Rest requires it to compete with support Arceus formes for a team slot as a Defog user. Lastly, its formerly coveted ability to spinblock is considerably less important than in previous generations, and its mandatory item limits its versatility. Despite these shortcomings, Giratina-O remains a phenomenal and unique Pokemon that is sure to leave an impact on the XY metagame. If a dependable Defog user, a bulky attacker that can switch in easily, an overall utility Pokemon, or any combination of the three is needed, one need look no further than Giratina-O.


    Physical Defog
    ########
    name: Physical Defog
    move 1: Defog
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Dragon Tail
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Earthquake / Stone Edge
    ability: Levitate
    item: Griseous Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 248 Def / 8 SpD
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========

    Defog is the defining move of the set, removing all entry hazards from both the user's and the opponent's side of the field, as well as the odd Light Screen or Reflect from the opponent's side. Giratina-O is one of the best users of the move by virtue of its ability to switch in easily, defeat common Taunt users, and bypass Shadow Tag. Shadow Sneak is a solid priority STAB move that is able to nail the numerous Psychic- and Ghost-types that litter the metagame for super effective damage and is made even stronger by Griseous Orb. Dragon Tail completes Giratina-O's combo of utility STAB moves, dealing a fair amount of damage and allowing it to phaze any Pokemon that is not a Fairy-type or behind a Substitute. Will-O-Wisp is the optimal choice in the final slot, allowing Giratina-O to incapacitate physical attackers and add a source of consistent residual damage to its opponents. However, Earthquake can be used to hit Heatran and Klefki, while Stone Edge can be used to hit Ho-Oh. None of these Pokemon have trouble with this set otherwise.

    The last slot is very flexible. Thunder Wave and Toxic are alternative status options that can cripple fast and bulky switch-ins, respectively. Shadow Force is a much stronger STAB move that is notable for its ability to hit through King's Shield, though its charge turn makes it easy to play around. Lastly, Magic Coat can be used to send Taunt, Toxic, and other status moves back at their users.


    Set Details
    ========

    Maximum Attack investment is used to ensure that Giratina-O's STAB moves hit as hard as possible, boosting the power of its priority attack and phazing move. It also guarantees the 2HKO on Mewtwo with Shadow Sneak. 248 Defense EVs are recommended as they guarantee Giratina-O will survive a +2 Life Orb Shadow Claw from 252+ Normal Arceus, even after Stealth Rock. These EVs also allow it to check other dangerous physical threats more effectively, including Blaziken, Swords Dance Ground Arceus, and offensive Groudon.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Generally, Giratina-O should be switched in on a Pokemon it can wall and/or predicted attacks it resists or is immune to, and use Defog if needed. Otherwise, it should fire off its STAB moves, using Shadow Sneak to pick off weakened Pokemon and against those that it hits super effectively. Dragon Tail should be used sparingly if your opponent has a Fairy-type waiting in the wings, but it is otherwise your go-to attacking option. As Dragon Tail greatly benefits from having your own entry hazards up, it's often wise to avoid using Defog immediately, if at all. The move chosen for the fourth slot should be used as needed.

    Because it lacks reliable recovery, keeping Giratina-O healthy rather than continuously switching into Stealth Rock and using Defog is crucial if it is your only check to a specific Pokemon on your opponent's team. Similarly, if you require Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak to deal with threats such as Deoxys-A, make sure it is not mindlessly switched in and worn down.

    Team Options
    ========

    Naturally, Pokemon that appreciate Defog support are obvious choices for potential teammates. Ho-Oh in particular stands out as an excellent teammate for Defog Giratina-O, having great defensive synergy with it; Ho-Oh can take the special Dark-, Ghost-, Dragon-, Ice-, and Fairy-type attacks and Will-O-Wisps aimed at Giratina-O, which in turn can sponge Water-, Electric-, and most Rock-type attacks. As previously mentioned, Stealth Rock support complements Dragon Tail nicely, making dedicated Stealth Rock users such as Dialga and Groudon great teammates. Groudon can also wall many of the physically inclined Dragon-types that force Giratina-O out, such as Zekrom. Pokemon that handle Fairy-types well also make good teammates. Steel Arceus, Scizor, Aegislash, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi stand out, all of which also have a useful Dragon-type resistance and four of which can set up Stealth Rock. Poison Arceus works similarly against Fairies, especially if it has Roar for Geomancy Xerneas. Klefki can annoy Dark- and Fairy-types and provide Spikes support, while Tyranitar defeats Dark-types that lack a Fighting-type move, can set up Stealth Rock, and is able to Pursuit trap dangerous wallbreakers such as Choice-locked Kyurem-W. Heatran walls Ho-Oh without Earthquake, can beat most Steel-types, gets a Flash Fire Boost from Will-O-Wisp, is immune to Toxic, and can deal with Fairy-types that lack the appropriate coverage move.

    Calm Mind and Swords Dance Arceus formes warrant a special mention. Thanks to the Defog support Giratina-O provides, they can switch in and boost without being plagued by entry hazards. More importantly, however, using Defog Giratina-O eliminates the need to run a support Arceus forme with Defog. Calm Mind Fairy and Electric Arceus stand out in particular, as they are able to deal with many of Giratina-O's checks.


    Mixed Attacker
    ########
    name: Mixed Attacker
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Dragon Tail / Shadow Ball
    move 4: Toxic / Defog
    ability: Levitate
    item: Griseous Orb
    evs: 180 Atk / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
    nature: Rash

    Moves
    ========

    Draco Meteor hits very hard with maximum Special Attack investment and the boost from Griseous Orb and is able to severely dent or OHKO many prevalent switch-ins to Giratina-O. To give an idea of Draco Meteor's power, Darkrai is OHKOed while defensive Yveltal is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. Draco Meteor also strips off a huge chunk of health from common switch-ins expecting a physical set. For example, Gliscor is usually OHKOed by Draco Meteor unless it is running significant Special Defense investment. Shadow Sneak is unarguably the best move Giratina-O has access to on any set and is able to 2HKO most Pokemon weak to it, most notably Mega Mewtwo Y. Dragon Tail can be used to phaze boosting sweepers and rack up entry hazard damage in the process, while also dealing a solid amount of damage itself. However, Shadow Ball can be used in its place as a consistent and reliable STAB move that does not lower Giratina-O's Special Attack nor leave it helpless against Fairy-types. It's also useful against Steel-types, which would otherwise wall this set.

    Like the previous set, the last slot is extremely flexible. Toxic can put a timer on Ho-Oh and Fairy-type switch-ins, while Defog can be used to clear hazards and dual screens. Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave are different status options that can be used to neuter physically based and fast switch-ins, respectively. They're also useful against Pokemon that might stay in and attempt to boost against Giratina-O. Several damaging moves are usable as well. Earthquake is an option against Heatran and other Steel-types if Giratina-O is not running Shadow Ball. Stone Edge can be used to OHKO Ho-Oh. Finally, Thunder can be used if Giratina-O's team struggles versus Kyogre.

    Set Details
    ========

    The purpose of running maximum Special Attack investment is fairly straightforward, as doing so allows Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball to hit as hard as possible and guarantees the damage outputs mentioned above. 76 Speed EVs are used for Giratina-O to outrun defensive Yveltal, while also making it faster than uninvested Gliscor and Landorus-T. A minimum of 108 Attack EVs is required in order to guarantee the 2HKO on Mega Mewtwo Y with Shadow Sneak, and the remaining EVs are also placed in Attack to increase the power of Shadow Sneak and Dragon Tail.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Appropriate usage of Draco Meteor is what makes or breaks this set. If you predict that your opponent will switch in a Fairy-type, do not mindlessly throw it out; doing so will render Giratina-O complete setup bait and/or force it to switch out. It is key to lure in other common switch-ins, however, and smack them with a Draco Meteor. The combination of Draco Meteor and Shadow Sneak is capable of dealing with even more threats than those already mentioned, including Mega Mewtwo X and offensive Dialga. By itself, Shadow Sneak is still incredibly handy and should be used to pick off weakened foes and check Pokemon that it hits super effectively. Dragon Tail in conjunction with hazard support is extremely useful for weakening the opponent's team as well as checking boosting sweepers; once again, if you need a healthy Giratina-O to check a Pokemon your opponent has, do not let it get worn down by constantly switching it in on resisted hits. If Shadow Ball is used instead, it is usually a much safer move to start with than Draco Meteor, since the only Normal-type in Ubers that has any business switching in on Giratina-O is Blissey. It should also be used in situations where Draco Meteor's Special Attack drop could otherwise be taken advantage of, namely against Substitute users. As with the previous set, use the move chosen for the fourth slot when necessary.

    Team Options
    ========

    Stealth Rock support is practically mandatory when using this set, as it guarantees specific OHKOs and 2HKOs with Draco Meteor and Shadow Sneak. These include OHKOs on Gliscor and offensive Yveltal and 2HKOs on Landorus-T and Ho-Oh. Stealth Rock support also aids Dragon Tail shuffling quite a bit. Thus, dedicated Stealth Rock users such as Groudon and Dialga make good teammates, with Groudon's physical walling capabilities again coming in handy against physically based Dragon-types. Giratina-O can also remove the aforementioned Landorus-T and Gliscor and even opposing Giratina-O, allowing offensive Groudon to sweep.

    Ultimately, most of the teammates suggested for the previous set also pair well with this one. Steel-types such as Scizor, Klefki, Aegislash, Steel Arceus, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi can keep opposing Fairy-types in check; the last four of these are also able to set up Stealth Rock, while Klefki can set up Spikes. Additionally, the listed Steel-types that are weak to Dark-type moves greatly benefit from the removal of Darkrai and Yveltal. Heatran is a particularly helpful Steel-type teammate, being immune to both Will-O-Wisp and Toxic and having access to Stealth Rock. It can also deal with opposing Steel-types and Ho-Oh, provided Ho-Oh is not running Earthquake. Tyranitar easily defeats Dark-types that lack a Fighting-type move, while also being able to set up Stealth Rock and Pursuit trap wallbreakers that threaten Giratina-O. If Defog is used in the last slot, Pokemon that appreciate the support the move provides such as Ho-Oh make good teammates.


    Other Options
    ########

    There are several worthwhile options not mentioned that Giratina-O can opt for. Roar can be used over Dragon Tail or in the last slot on either set for its ability to hit Geomancy Xerneas, an extremely common switch-in, and ideally make it waste its Power Herb. Roar is also useful for its perfect accuracy and ability to hit through Substitute. Iron Tail can be used to hit Fairy-types hard, but its accuracy is detrimental. Likewise, Iron Head can be used but is rather weak. Rest is Giratina-O's only form of reliable recovery and is usable with cleric support or Sleep Talk. Aura Sphere hits Tyranitar, but it is not useful for much else, and Tyranitar dislikes status anyway. A purely special set involving some combination of Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Calm Mind, Aura Sphere, Thunder, Earth Power, and Hidden Power Fire is an option, but Giratina-O will sorely miss having Shadow Sneak. Lastly, Destiny Bond is an option for Giratina-O to make the most of its last turn and allows it to check Swords Dance Normal Arceus packing Shadow Force.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Xerneas**: Xerneas can switch in on any Dragon-type attack and proceed to set up with Geomancy, remove its team's status conditions with Aromatherapy, or KO Giratina-O with Moonblast. It needs to watch out for Shadow Force or the odd Steel-type attack though.

    **Fairy Arceus**: Fairy Arceus doesn't mind anything Giratina-O has other than status or the rare Steel-type move, can Recover off any damage, and can KO with Judgment or set up Calm Mind.

    **Sylveon**: Sylveon can switch in on Dragon-type moves, heal itself if needed with Wish, and KO Giratina-O with a Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voice. It doesn't mind status as it always runs Heal Bell, but it needs to be careful of Shadow Force or the rare Steel-type move.

    **Yveltal**: Yveltal can come in on Ghost-type moves, Taunt Giratina-O, and KO it with a Dark-type attack while being able to Roost off any damage. However, it needs to be wary of status moves. Additionally, Draco Meteor followed by Shadow Sneak from the mixed set will KO offensive Yveltal after Stealth Rock, while defensive variants will fall to two Draco Meteors.

    **Darkrai**: Darkrai can come in on Ghost-type moves and use Dark Void or Dark Pulse but is OHKOed by a Draco Meteor from the mixed set.

    **Dark Arceus**: Dark Arceus can stomach any attack from Giratina-O and heal itself with Recover, set up Calm Mind, and KO Giratina-O with a super effective Judgment, though it needs to watch out for Toxic if it is not carrying Refresh.

    **Tyranitar**: Tyranitar can switch in on anything from Giratina-O other than status moves and Earthquake and then trap it with Pursuit. It really dislikes Will-O-Wisp and Toxic though.

    **Ho-Oh**: Provided Stealth Rock isn't up, Ho-Oh can repeatedly switch in on Dragon Tail or Draco Meteor thanks to Regenerator and Recover/Roost and can retaliate with Brave Bird. It needs to watch out for Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Stone Edge though.

    **Gliscor**: Gliscor can Toxic stall Giratina-O and is not threatened as long as it doesn't switch in on Will-O-Wisp before its Toxic Orb activates or against a special move.

    **RestTalk Kyogre**: This variant of Kyogre can take any attack from Giratina-O well bar Thunder or strong physical moves. It can then Rest off the damage and fish for Scald burns or Roar Giratina-O out. It doesn't care about status moves either.

    **Faster Dragon-types**: These include Palkia, Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and Zekrom. While they cannot switch in directly, they force Giratina-O to switch out under the threat of a super effective STAB move.

    **Toxic**: As Giratina-O does not have access to a reliable recovery move other than Rest, it can be Toxic stalled quite easily. Also, a surprise Toxic from an offensive Pokemon such as Terrakion is practically a death sentence for Giratina-O.

    old skeleton lol (open)

    Overview
    ########

    -massive hp and decent defenses allow it to sponge attacks well
    -griseous orb boosts its good offenses, but somewhat limits its versatility
    -3 immunities, therefore gets many switch-in opportunities
    -great defogger due to the above + SR neutrality and immunity to all other hazards thanks to levitate, also beats many common taunt users 1v1 (e.g. deoxys-s, mewtwo, thundurus)
    -no reliable recovery is a major shortcoming when compared to other common defog users (e.g. arceus forms)
    -type chart changes are a mixed bag; gained fairy weakness but ghost STAB is now much more potent offensively
    -solid check to many common threats (e.g. EK arceus, groudon, blaziken)
    -still blocks rapid spin
    -laughs at mega gengar


    Physical Defog
    ########

    name: Physical Defog
    move 1: Defog
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Dragon Tail
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Earthquake / Stone Edge
    ability: Levitate
    item: Griseous Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 248 Def / 8 SpD
    nature: Adamant


    Moves
    ========

    -defog removes hazards of course, giratina-o is one of the best users of it for the reasons mentioned above (isn't hazard weak, can beat many taunt users)
    -shadow sneak is a solid priority/STAB move made even stronger by griseous orb
    -dragon tail is put to great use on giratina-o as it forces a lot of switches, also lets giratina-o check several boosting sweepers remarkably well
    -will-o-wisp permanently cripples physical attackers, and is more appealing than ever as it had its accuracy buffed to 85% this gen
    -earthquake is a moderately powerful attack without negative priority, allows giratina-o to hit things that would normally wall this set easily such as aegislash and heatran
    -stone edge is an option to OHKO ho-oh, which would otherwise wall this set and can repeatedly switch into dragon tail with impunity if stealth rock isn't up thanks to regenerator
    -shadow force is a much stronger ghost-type STAB option, and is notably able to hit through king's shield
    -thunder wave and toxic are alternative status options for the last slot that can cripple fast and bulky switch-ins, respectively
    -magic coat can be useful vs taunt users in particular, but also as protection against things like toxic as giratina-o is a common target of status


    Set Details
    ========

    -max attack lets its STABs hit as hard as possible, making dragon tail that much better for shuffling
    -max attack also gives it a very strong priority move, notably guarantees the 2HKO on 0/4 mewtwo
    -248 defense guarantees it survives a +2 LO shadow claw from max attack normal arceus, and helps it take hits better overall as it will usually be switching in to check physical threats


    Usage Tips
    ========

    -switch in on one of your 3 immunities or 6 resistances and use defog if needed, revenge/phaze/burn things otherwise
    -dragon tail spam isn't as effective this gen due to the introduction of fairies; should be used cautiously
    -revenge things like mewtwo and deoxys forms, as well as low hp mons in general, with shadow sneak
    -it's often important to keep giratina-o alive to phaze the dangerous boosting sweepers it handles so well (e.g. SD groundceus, blaziken, offensive groudon, ekiller) rather than constantly switching in and using defog


    Team Options
    ========

    -ho-oh loves defog support and can take a lot of the dark/ghost/ice/dragon/fairy moves aimed at giratina-o, as the majority will be special
    -stealth rock complements dragon tail nicely (though obviously you may not want to use defog if your own rocks are already down) - reliable stealth rock users such as dialga work well with giratina-o
    -groudon in particular can set up stealth rock and wall many of the physically-based dragons that force giratina-o out
    -pokemon that handle fairies well are great partners, e.g. aegislash, jirachi, bronzong, metagross (three of which can also set up SR, and all of which also have a valuable dragon resistance)
    -similarly, steelceus and poisonceus can help deal with fairies, particularly if they have roar
    -klefki is a good answer to xerneas/yveltal and can support with thunder wave/spikes
    -tyranitar can beat dark-types lacking a fighting move and ho-oh
    -heatran
    -cm arceus forms


    Mixed
    ########

    name: Mixed
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Dragon Tail / Shadow Ball
    move 4: Toxic / Defog
    ability: Levitate
    item: Griseous Orb
    evs: 180 Atk / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
    nature: Rash


    Moves
    ========

    -draco meteor hits extremely hard with max spa and the griseous orb boost, and is able to severely dent common switch-ins to giratina-o and/or opponents expecting a physical set (e.g. physically defensive yveltal takes 60-70%)
    -shadow sneak is once again used as a strong priority STAB move that hits many ubers super effectively
    -dragon tail is used for phazing/shuffling and does a decent amount of damage, especially with the listed attack investment
    -shadow ball can be used as a reliable STAB attack for its ability to damage things consistently, as well as hit fairies
    -toxic is an option to cripple common switch-ins, such as xerneas and support arceus
    -defog can be used to clear hazards
    -a ton of other support options are available for the last slot, including will-o-wisp and thunder wave
    -similarly, a number of attacking options are available depending on your team's needs, such as stone edge, earthquake, and thunder/thunderbolt

    Set Details
    ========

    -max spa is used to make draco meteor hit as hard as possible, also guaranteeing an OHKO on 0/0 darkrai
    -a minimum investment of 100 atk EVs is needed to guarantee the 2HKO on mega mewtwo Y with shadow sneak
    -76 speed EVs are used to outspeed 0 speed yveltal; draco meteor does roughly 60-70% to 252/0 yveltal (also good for outspeeding lando-t and gliscor with minimal investment)
    -remaining 80 EVs are placed in attack to make dragon tail and shadow sneak hit harder, though they can also be placed in defense in order to help giratina-o check physical threats better


    Usage Tips
    ========

    -this set plays similarly to the first due to the inclusion of giratina-o's two core moves (shadow sneak and dragon tail), even more so if defog is used in the last slot
    -draco meteor allows giratina-o to muscle past physically bulky pokemon, as well as letting it hit common dark-type switch-ins hard
    -take advantage of giratina-o's great set of immunities and resistances to switch in and use draco meteor, which will leave a large dent in just about anything that doesn't resist it (and isn't a pink blob); it's a good attack to throw out but be wary of doing so if your opponent has fairies or steels remaining
    -if giratina-o opts to run shadow ball, throw it out in place of draco meteor, as it is much safer - the only normal-types that have any business switching in on giratina-o are blissey and the occasional wallceus
    -toxic is particularly useful for predicted switch-ins of bulky arceus forms, as they can take a draco meteor with ease and recover off the damage


    Team Options
    ========

    -again, this set plays similarly to the first, especially if defog is used in the last slot - thus, nearly all of the teammates mentioned above are good teammates for a giratina-o running this set
    -however, the use of draco meteor allows giratina-o to lure in and hit common switch-ins (particularly dark types) very hard; pokemon that appreciate the removal of threats like darkrai and defensive yveltal (e.g. ghostceus, lugia, stall-oriented pokemon in general) pair well with this variant of giratina-o


    Other Options
    ########

    -roar can be used over dragon tail or in the flexible last slot of each set for its ability to hit geoxern, an extremely common giratina-o switch in, and ideally make it waste its power herb (also useful for its perfect accuracy and ability to hit through substitute)
    -iron head can be used with thunder wave for a gimmicky geoxern lure
    -similarly, iron tail hits fairies hard but its accuracy is unappealing
    -rest is giratina-o's only form of recovery and can be used with cleric support or with sleep talk
    -a purely special set is an option (though the loss of shadow sneak and dragon tail hurts); giratina-o has great special attacking options in draco meteor, dragon pulse, shadow ball, calm mind, aura sphere, thunder/thunderbolt, earth power, and hidden power fire
    -aura sphere is notable for its ability to hit tyranitar


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    -xerneas
    -yveltal
    -darkrai
    -darkceus
    -fairyceus
    -tyranitar (does not like being burned, though)
    -ho-oh if giratina-o is lacking stone edge, and if stealth rock isn't up
    -gliscor
    -forced out by faster dragons
    -sylveon 2HKOes, and 252/4 sylveon is only 2HKOed by the rare iron head or OHKOed by shadow force after stealth rock
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2014
  2. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    982
    Overview

    This fares well vs. some variants of Lando-T, like the Double Dance set, but hates support sets with Toxic unless it carries Draco Meteor. I'd remove the Lando-T mention since it isn't always a great match-up for Giratina.

    When you bring up the 3 immunities, mention Levitate briefly because not caring about Sticky Web/Spikes/Earthquake spam is cool for a defogger

    Mention a lack of reliable recovery as a MAJOR weakness, Giratina-O would be even better if it had Roost. Giratina-O does better vs most common Taunt users than the other defoggers do, save Darkrai, but Scizor, Skarmory, Arceus, etc all have reliable recovery :(.


    Set

    Slash Will-O-Wisp before the situational Earthquake.


    Moves

    Looks good, just change "doesn't care about hazards" to "it isn't hazard weak" because Levitate does not grant it a SR resistance/immunity; not caring about Spikes or Sticky Web is cool though!


    Set Details

    Moves that are too good for OO but not good enough to get a slash go in this section. Talk about the perks of Stone Edge, Toxic, and Magic Coat here IMO.

    Talk about alternative EV spreads; a Physically Defensive spread can check EKiller, Offensive Groudon and Ground Arceus far better than an offensive spread can. Likewise, it can run Special Attack investment if it chooses to run Draco Meteor.


    Usage Tips

    Mention that Dragon Tail spam isn't as good this generation as it was last generation due to hazards not being as dominant and Fairy types existing. It's still a good move, but should be used more cautiously.

    Deadly threats like Swords Dance Ground Arceus and Blaziken are handled by this thing. Therefore, sometimes it's better to conserve Giratina-O for those threats instead of having it come in and repeatedly Defogging (and thus getting worn down in the process). If you need Giratina-O for a specific Pokemon, it is often advantageous to set up your own hazard(s) and force your opponent to Defog, or simply play with SR on both sides.


    Team Options

    Bronzong/Aegislash are cool because they beat Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy; you can mention Roar Arceus-Steel and Arceus-Poison here too.


    Other Options

    Move Magic Coat and Shadow Force out of this section and into Set Details.

    Mention Rest with Aromatherapy support, as well as HP Fire to 2HKO and to nail the uncommon Ferrothorn/rare Forretress. Substitute still seems alright but not NEARLY as good as last generation because the presence of Fairies. Giratina-O cannot really punish them without resorting to a suboptimal move like Iron Tail or Thunder Wave (actully Toxic can annoy Fairy Arceus and Xerneas I guess, but Giratina rarely if ever run Sub and Toxic on the same set).


    Checks & Counters

    Gliscor beats Giratina if it lacks Draco Meteor.

    Remove Lugia, Giratina can status it and it gives Giratina defog opportunities.

    I guess you can mention Ice Arceus briefly even though it is rare/awful.

    Good job overall, though it's 4:30 AM so I probably missed some stuff. QC will discuss whether to add more sets; I am on the fence at the moment.
  3. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,090
    I don't think the first set spread is quite up to date, iirc the speed was for Tentacruel/Jirachi, both less viable. Earthquake is a great option, especially for Blaziken, but I think Stone Edge deserves a slash as well. Iron Tail goes in moves as a decent option to hit Xerneas on the switch in with. With this said, my suggestion of a set would be:

    Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Spd / 248 Def or 184 Atk / 76 Spd / 248 Def (with Stone Edge)
    Adamant Nature
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Dragon Tail
    - Defog
    - Will O Wisp / Earthquake / Stone Edge

    248 def never dies to +2 LO adamant Ekiller Shadow Claw after SR. If Stone Edge, 76 speed allows you to be faster than 0 speed Yveltal, allowing you to burn it and possibly put some pressure on it with Stone Edge. It is not technically speed creeping, as you target a 0 speed threat, but the 76 evs you invest also helps vs Ho-oh. I will comment more later.
    alexwolf likes this.
  4. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    Thanks to both of you. @hack, ty for mentioning the 184 atk / 248 def / 76 spe spread in particular. I actually used that spread last gen to check EK arceus (after it was suggested to me by anikrahman, or whatever else he goes by), now that I think about it lol
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  5. Steeljackal<3

    Steeljackal<3

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    602
    Shadow Ball is actually a lot better than Shadow Force, it is less easy to play around, doesn't care about KS, and is much more damaging vs things like MMX, Hippo, and Gliscor. Honestly, I think specially biased gira-o could have its own
    set--it is much better than it was last gen.
    Furai likes this.
  6. Player-0

    Player-0 (*′☉.̫☉)

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Messages:
    98
    Adding a portion under the team option about pokemon to get rid of fairy types would be helpful. Giratina-O's niche has gotten hampered drastically since the introduction of fairy type. Lugia, gengar, and ho-oh come to mind. Giratina-O really needs some form of team support.
  7. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Am I the only one that thinks we should actually keep a mix set on site? I just don't think an Other Options mention is enough.

    Giratina-O's defenses are amazing but letting it go mixed also lets it check some other things (a strong Shadow Ball / Draco Meteor will now let it very nicely check Mega Mewtwo X) in exchange for slightly lowering that defense. It also is really nice to help it defog since Draco Meteor + Shadow Sneak can tear off a huge chunk of health for users of Stealth Rock especially if that Stealth Rock user is a Groudon / Hippowdon / Landorus. Even somewhat weakened Arceus forms may fall to the combination of the two moves. It also helps Giratina-O anti lead against opposing Deoxys-S / A using hazards. They have to Taunt as Giratina-O defogs but if Giratina-O attacks as they use Taunt before hazards are up, then neither Deoxys will be able to get any hazards up. Regardless Giratina-O will still at worst force either lead to get only one hazard up, which isn't bad at all.

    Steelskitty is correct in my opinion. A Giratina-O that utilizes a special move like Shadow Ball or Draco Meteor can do all the things listed above, also suggesting that a mixed set is very viable. The true problem with such a set lies in its inability to do anything to Xerneas, but since the current one can't do anything aside burn Xerneas it shouldn't be that bad at all.

    In my opinion a mixed set should look like this, its not refined or anything and has slashitis and will be discussed so don't put it up yet, but

    Mixed Giratina
    ########

    name: Mixed Defogger
    move 1: Draco Meteor / Shadow Ball
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Dragon Tail
    move 4: Defog / Stone Edge / Will-O-Wisp / Dragon Tail <- Welp the slashitis
    ability: Levitate
    item: Griseous Orb
    evs: 248 Atk / 248 SpA / 8 Spe
    nature: Rash

    Using 100 Atk EVs is the bare minimum since that enables Shadow Sneak to always 2HKO Mega Mewtwo Y. Defense investment is a possibility to make tanking moves in general easier but yeah.

    Iron Tail and Thunder can go in moves as coverage to improve Draco Meteor.

    What's nice about Draco Meteor is you can punish dragons. Shadow Ball puts Geomancy Xerneas in range for Scizor's Bullet Punch though.
    AceSat and Piexplode like this.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,401
    Rest + 3 works well too, nice for checking bulky kyogres and toxic landos and shit. A resttalk set isn't useless either although the appeal certainly dropped.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,208
    If Shadow Sneak is the only physical attak that is slashed first on the mixed set then only 100 Atk EVs should be used to 2HKO MMY as polop mentioned.
  10. cloud15

    cloud15

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2
    I think this set should be included in the analysis.

    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 212 Atk / 252 Def / 44 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Tail
    - Stone Edge
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Will-O-Wisp

    The EVs and Nature give a respectable mix of bulk and power to Gira-O, allowing it to tank physical attacks pretty well. Dragon Tail + Shadow Sneak is pretty standard. Stone Edge allows Giratina-O to nail Ho-Oh and Yveltal on the switch and Will-O-Wisp cripples physcial attackers.

    By the way, credit for the set goes to Edgar.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2014
  11. AceSat

    AceSat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages:
    181
    Here is the mixed attacking set that I run, I replaced hidden power fire with stone edge this generation with the rise of Ho-oh. Tweak it as you may as i believe a negative speed nature allows it to better deal with both sides of the offensive spectrum without compromising the other for attacking power. Considering putting the speed evs in attack and the rest in hp. But without further ado here is my current set:

    Mixed Attacker
    ########
    Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 Atk / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Dragon Tail
    - Stone Edge/Earthquake
  12. portbaron

    portbaron

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    9
    In the physical defog set details part of the reasoning for the Def evs says: "248 defense guarantees it survives a +2 LO espeed from max attack normal arceus". Pretty sure espeed can't hit giratina.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  13. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    I meant Shadow Claw, lol, fixed
  14. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    982
    Slash Shadow Ball with Dragon Tail. It hits a lot of mons hard. Also mention Aura sphere in OO to dent Tyranitar.

    QC 1/3
  15. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    Edited, and thanks.
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,401
    ugh fuck should have mentioned it before but Tina-O looks like one of those mons that is easier to talk about via IRC/PS chat because it's so funky this gen.
  17. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,450
  18. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    Thanks, going to start writing the actual analysis shortly.
  19. Diosjenin

    Diosjenin

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2
    Minor point: Physical Defog should have Roar as a secondary option next to Dragon Tail, for the same reasons it's there in Giratina-A's sets - accuracy, substitutes, Fairies. Roar is particularly nice when a Xerneas comes in and thinks it can get off a free Geomancy while you turn tail and run.
  20. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    It'll very likely stay in Other Options. Unlike normal Giratina, Giratina-O can actually do a lot of damage with Dragon Tail (especially when using that set, which has maximum Attack investment listed).
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  21. Diosjenin

    Diosjenin

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2
    Fair enough. I'm mostly going from personal experience, having used a more defensive variant of that set for the last few weeks. Tried it with both Roar and DT, and Xerneas alone ended up making Roar work significantly better for me.
  22. malefic

    malefic swing by for 1 more
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Messages:
    555
    Ok I have a couple small points you could include when writing this up: firstly, Heatran can be added as a great teammate under the 'teammates that deal with fairies section'; in addition to handling fairies and setting sr it also handles Ho-oh (big plus) and fucks with most other steels. Secondly, that Tina commonly runs Defog and status means CM arceus forms can be mentioned under team options since oftentimes, the reason why teams don't run these is bc they can't forgo the utility of a support arceus. CM fairyceus is a sweeper-cleaner that has great synergy with Tina; eleceus is arguably the most offensively potent CM arceus and can help Tina with Yveltal and Ho-oh.
  23. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    I will do that, thanks.
  24. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    Overview
    Base 100 defenses are only decent in Ubers, they're pretty common with the base 680s. Spinblocking is a much less relevant niche, but still has utility (a few spinners remain viable in Ubers). Also (it's more personal than anything) but I feel that mentioning the type chart feels a little awkward, I'd prefer just mentioning how Steel types lost their Ghost resistance.

    Physical Defog
    "Crux" is pretty much a banned word in analyses, so rephrase that. I also don't like referring to the Overview, someone might want to jump straight into an analysis and look at sets, so please outline what makes Giratina-O a good Defogger. I also wouldn't say Shadow Force is obscenely powerful (base 120 Atk isn't amazing and Griseous Orb isn't exactly CB). In Set Details, 248 Def EVs are for +2 Shadow Claw even after SR, so mention that. In usage tips, I think you can trim down the "keep it healthy and think about your switches if you need it" idea to be more concise. In Team Options, Rayquaza is not necessarily physically based so Groudon is not safe against it (and +2 V-Create deals huge damage from SD sets). Mention Scizor alongside the other Steel types.

    Mixed Attacker
    Again not sure about "extremely", things like Kyurem-W and Kyogre kinda just ruined damage output for everything else in Ubers, so standards are high. I'm also not a fan of calculations in analyses, I would prefer if you just stick to saying stuff is hit very hard, and maybe give examples of things that are OHKOed. Shift the emphasis away from how other options hit switch ins; stuff like Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp can mess with things staying in too (actually very few good Twave targets ever switch in on Giratina-O). Also remove the 0/4 before Mega Mewtwo Y, it's not clear for new players and is the typical spread. In Team Options, don't mention OHKOs or 2HKOs missed without providing examples. Remove mention of Lugia and the like as teammates; just because Darkrai and Yveltal cannot switch in against you does not mean they will not wreak havoc if you have multiple Dark-type weaknesses. Expand on the Team Options a lot; the sets should be independent, rather than referring people around or having them read the whole analysis if they only care about part of it.

    Other Options
    Mention Destiny Bond. It can be a nice way for Giratina-O to get as much out of its last turn as possible, and allows it to check Shadow Force Ekiller.

    Checks & Counters
    There's not much reason not to group the Fairy-types and the Dark-types, so go ahead and do that. Mention if stuff can repeatedly check Giratina-O by having access to recovery (Sylveon, Arceus, Yveltal). Make Toxic its own check, since Giratina-O can't heal and a good number of mons can toxic stall it quite comfortably. Mention RestTalk Kyogre as a check, since it's immune to status and takes almost any attacks from Giratina-O pretty well (Outrage, Thunder and Shadow Force being the exceptions but they're all rare).

    QC: 3/3
  25. Muk

    Muk
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    I implemented the changes, and thanks.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)