Gliscor (Revamp) QC [2/3]

[chimpact]

Still have a few things to finish up.

Overview
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• Resistance to fighting and immunity to Ground
• Poison heal gives it excellent recovery, immunity to status, and makes it a great Knock Off switch-in
• Great stall breaker because of its access to Swords Dance, Taunt, and Poison Heal ability.
• Weakness to Water/Ice
• Limited offensive movepool

Swords Dance
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Name: Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Roost
Move 4: Knock Off / Facade / Ice Fang
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 244 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Spd / 8 Def
Nature: Careful

Moves
========

• Swords Dance boosts your two attacks and makes Gliscor an immediate threat instead of a passive defensive Pokemon.
• Taunt can be used to stop entry-hazards, recovery, set-up moves, and Baton-Pass chains in their tracks
• Earthquake is Gliscor's strongest and most reliable attack.
• Roost gives Gliscor some reliable recovery to go along with Poison Heal to outlive a lot of defensive Pokemon
  
• Knock-Off pairs up very well with both Swords Dance and Earthquake. It enables Gliscor to hit pokemon like Latios and Gengar, so they're not free switch ins.
• Facade is a bit stronger than Knock-Off, but it has poor coverage with Earthquake. It deals with opposing Flying-type Pokemon and levitators a bit better.
• Ice Fang is an option to OHKO bulky Garchomp, opposing Gliscor, and Altaria before it mega evolves.

Set Details
========

• Because of Gliscor's excellent typing and ability it becomes a very difficult Pokemon to take down. Defensive teams often struggle dealing chunks of damage so Gliscor really shines against them
• Gliscor along with a Mega-Pokemon deter opposing Pokemon from spamming Knock-Off.
• 8 Def EVs allow you to always live a Bisharp's + 2 Sucker Punch.

Usage Tips
========

• Do not let Gliscor take too much damage before it is forced to roost. Some Pokemon that Gliscor usually counters may be able to overcome it like Gengar if it is not kept healthy.
• If Gliscor uses Facade, it is unable to beat Gengar so be sure to utilize a Pokemon that can handle it.

Stallbreaker
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Name: Stallbreaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Earthquake / Knock Off
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 244 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Spd / 8 Def
Nature: Careful


Set Details
========

• Instead of using Swords Dance to power through defensive Pokemon, this set uses Taunt and Toxic to wear those Pokemon down. Taunt prevents them from recovering, setting up hazards or boosts, and it stops Gliscor from getting Taunted as well.
• The choice of Knock Off or EQ is dependent on your team. Knock Off is a great utility move, hits a wide variety of Pokemon, but has low damage output. Earthquake is your consistent STAB move, but you fail to hit key switch ins to Gliscor like Gengar.
• Defensive teams have trouble dealing damage to Gliscor as they cannot damage it. However, if you are running Earthquake, have a pokemon that can deal damage to Pokemon like Venusaur, Skarmory, opposing Gliscor etc. You will be stuck in a PP Stall War against Skarmory, and Venusaur will normally beat Gliscor.

Team Options
========

• Talonflame and Pinsir benefit greatly from Gliscor's help. Facade variants can bait in Rotom-W and beat it for Talonflame/Pinsir to have a field day against the opposing team.
• Bulky waters and Grass types are useful for switching in on expected Water and Ice type attacks aimed at Gliscor. Pokemon capable of setting up like Slowbro, Celebi, and Suicune are even more effective with this set as they serve as win conditions that have completely different counters to Gliscor.

SubToxic
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Name: SubToxic
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Protect / Roost
Move 4: Earthquake / Knock Off
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 244 HP / 208 Def / 56 Spd
Nature: Impish

Moves
========

• Toxic hits all non-Magic Guard, non-steel and non-poison types and can rack up damage faster than Ghetsis's Hydreigon. Toxic KOs the opponent in 6 moves if not hit by any other attack, 5 after stealth rock. This is the main form of damage for Gliscor. Can be used on a set-up sweeper to make them lose additional HP over time
• Earthquake is your attack of choice. It's needed to hit Pokemon like Bisharp, Mega-Metagross, and Tyranitar which Gliscor likes to come in on.
• Protect is helpful for the poison heal recovery, stall a turn for poison, and helps scout against choice Pokemon like Keldeo.
• Substitute allows Gliscor to take super effective hits and heal it off. The 25% of HP lost turns into a net of only -12.5% due to Poison Heal. Between substitute and protect you can stall certain moves with low PP like Rotom-W's Hydro Pump.
• Roost allows immediate and reliable recovery when Gliscor forces a switch on physical attackers.
• Knock Off is a great utility move. Removing leftovers from bulkier mons helps Toxic stall them much easier. It ensures you do not get walled by Gengar as well.

Set Details
========

• 244 HP is a Poison Heal number [Max HP can be used but 244 HP EVs improves Gliscor's special bulk]. EVs will be wasted if you utilize 244 HP and have defense investment.
• 56 speed allows you to outspeed base 70s with a neutral nature. 156 EVs can be utilized to outspeed those pokemon with a Positive nature.
• The combination of Substitute and Protect allows you to stall out PP from very important attacks like Rotom and Keldeo's Hydro Pump, while retaining the ability to Toxic Stall. Additionally, Poison Heal and Protect cancels out the 25% cost of Substitute.
• Because of how popular and strong the Swords Dance set is, you can lure bulky waters, Whirlwind Hippowdon, and Unaware users and punish them with Toxic.

Team Options
========

• Mega Altaria is a great partner for Gliscor. They are both very difficult to take down and have great set up opportunities on a lot of the tier. Use Refresh over Heal Bell on Altaria if you are using a mono attacking set, just in case Gliscor's Toxic Orb is Knocked Off.
• Magnezone can trap Bronzong (for facade variants) or Skarmory which are problematic for Gliscor. It also pairs up well with Mega-Altaria to deal with Ferrothorn.
• Ferrothorn can set up on a lot of Gliscor switch ins. Gliscor's weakness to water lures in many water types such as Suicune, choiced Keldeo, Rotom-W, Starmie which allow Ferrothorn to set up on them with Spikes.

Other Options
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• Gliscor also has access to two great moves in U-turn and Taunt, which can replace any other support move. U-turn and taunt both have the ability to scout a pokemon's moveset
• Taunt turns the Klefki and other Utility Pokemon into set-up fodder for sweepers
• Acrobatics can be used to absorb and punish Knock Off users.
• Stone Edge is an alternative to hit Charizard and Talonflame
• Baton Pass could help pass substitutes, attack or speed boosts. It faces competition from Scolipede but with Poison Heal's recovery and Gliscor's bulk and typing it can do it multiple times.
• Gliscor is a decent Stealth Rock user with its speed and bulk.

Checks & Counters
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• Gengar is immune to Toxic, Earthquake, and Facade and can hit Gliscor pretty hard with Shadow Ball. If Gliscor is at 91%, Gengar has a chance to 2HKO it with Shadow Ball with high damage rolls. Some also carry Icy Wind specifically for Gliscor.
• Skarmory is also immune to Toxic and Earthquake, and doesn't really mind losing its item. It can whirlwind out a + 2 Gliscor or one with a Substitute all while setting up spikes.
• Water types give Gliscor a lot of problem as they're usually bulky. Gyarados can Taunt to prevent set up or status, and takes nothing from Knock-Off if it's Mega-Gyarados. Rotom-W, Suicune, Starmie are all capable of taking hits from Gliscor and can 2hko back.
• Mega-Venusaur takes pitiful damage from EQ and can heal itself with Giga Drain. Serperior resists EQ and can 2hko back with Leaf Storm.
• Ice Types like Mamoswine, Kyurem, and Weavile can hit Gliscor with Super Effective STAB Ice attacks. Only Kyurem with recovery can really switch in on Gliscor however.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

I think a Taunt / Roost / Toxic / Earthquake set is definitively worth mentioning as it can stallbreak effectively a lot of thing. The only exceptions being Mega-Sableye and Skarmory (and Slowbro), but Knock Off can be put in place of Earthquake (to also remove Leftovers) I guess and its immunity to status / knock off (after activating the Orb) is also great. And it has a really reliable speed so that's nice.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

No actually SD is on the stallbreaker set since it allows Gliscor to get past Chansey and Sableye. Taunt>SD could work but then Sableye outstalls you.

EDIT: I would remove Defog from OO, it's terrible on Gliscor since you give up its biggest niche poison heal.

 

[Seth Vilo]

I'm mainly curious about the Stealth Rock set. It seems... really odd, and not really doing what Gliscor does best. I've never seen QC people overly thrilled with the whole Fling+Acro idea, and putting everything into Attack and Speed seems like wasting Gliscor's excellent Defensive potential. This is particularly relevant for the Stealth Rock because Gliscor will likely have to set them up again later against teams that have ways to remove them, and with its Defense and pivot ability instead allocated to Attacks and Speed that makes the job much harder. If people are using that set well, of course disregard this, but it just looks odd. I would think something simpler for Rocks like Stealth Rock / Earthquake / Roost / Knock Off | Taunt | Toxic, with the standard Defensive or Specially Defensive spreads as options.

 

[Jukain]

In response to a string of posts (now deleted): Gliscor is a stallbreaker, not a wallbreaker. That much is fact.

Also, it's not really worth posting feedback at this point because these are just old sets, which chimpact is in the process of changing.

 

[aim]

chimpact

 

[DiddlySquat]

No SpDef Gliscor? That thing is a bitch to take down and easy to slap on a lot of teams.

 

[chimpact]

Will be asking for QC soon :]

 

[I like donkeys]

Is max speed a viable EV spread to maximize the utility of sub + protect?

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Mention Ice Fang somewhere maybe? Since Gliscor checks non-HP Ice Landorus-I pretty well, and also deals with Breloom, Lando-T and opposing Gliscor.

 

[Lumari]

Small nitpick but dropping the HP EVs to 244 doesn't really do anything; with a simple 252 (which puts you at 354 HP) you still recover 44 HP from Poison Heal and still make 88 HP subs, and dropping the EVs even lowers your bulk ever so slightly, so there's really no point in doing so

 

[Clone]

Small nitpick but dropping the HP EVs to 244 doesn't really do anything; with a simple 252 (which puts you at 354 HP) you still recover 44 HP from Poison Heal and still make 88 HP subs, and dropping the EVs even lowers your bulk ever so slightly, so there's really no point in doing so

it literally makes no difference either way. the damage dealt is always the exact same when using the standard spread.

0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 240-284
0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Gliscor: 240-284

however, if more spdef is run, such 216+ (hits a jump point and still outspeeds uninvested base 100s), then 244 HP variants are marginally better.

0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 216+ SpD Gliscor: 232-276
0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Gliscor: 236-280

as such, 244 HP EVs is objectively better because its never worse than 252 HP variants, and can be more beneficial in some cases.

honestly, though, this whole fiasco is a moot point because the difference is statistically insignificant and will never come into play often enough to even give it a glancing thought. either one works and its not something worth nitpicking.

 

[Jukain]

This is an example of why you don't use arbitrary calcs to prove points, because there are discrepancies in calcs. It's minutia, but since there's actually a debate over it, 252 HP is pretty much objectively better if you look at the percentage differences in bulk. Running 244 HP increases special bulk (assuming standard 184 SpD spread) by .2% while decreasing physical bulk by .6%, a trade that statistically speaking is not worth taking at all.

 

[tehy]

Yep

just popped in to say, can you spd->Spe, i wouldn't nitpick but it legitimately confused me

 

[Clone]

Lol the difference is so small that it doesn't even matter. its not worth arguing about because it will never come into play during a match

 

[Agent Gibbs]

If you want overall optimal bulk, then 252 HP is the way to go. However, if you want to place an emphasis on special bulk while keeping your maximum recovery intact, 244 HP is fine. You'll lose a little physical bulk, but when Gliscor's special bulk is pretty mediocre as it is, you kinda want every little bit that you can get (and it's not like 244 HP Gliscor is exactly lacking in the physical bulk department anyway). Now, if you were throwing the remaining EVs into Def, then such a spread would be outright bad because it would be completely inefficient. However, if those other EVs are going into speed, then it really becomes an issue of if you're okay with a tiny bit of extra special bulk at the cost of a tiny bit of physical bulk or not. I'll leave it up to QC to decide whether or not that trade-off is worth it, but I personally don't see a problem with giving up a little physical bulk on a naturally physically bulky Pokemon for a little special bulk when it really needs as much as possible.

Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neighborhood EV Nitpicker

 

[Leftiez]

Hey Chimpact.
You should mention that gliscor can learn acrobatic in OO, that was really comon in XY because of Heracross and it can also hit Tangrowth which is great atm.
You can also add Thundurus as check since it's immune to eq and can hard hit him with hp ice.

Toxic hits all non-steel and non-poison types and can rack up damage faster than Ghetsis's Hydreigon.

Magic Guard user also.

I'd suggest to add the SD/Sub pass set too since it's becoming comon these days but it's better to ask aim before.

 

[aim]

chimpact

 

[chimpact]

good y/n?

 

[s_aman]

You are missing 8 EVs on both sets.

 

[Leftiez]

Overview
########

• Resistance to fighting and immunity to Ground
• Poison heal gives it excellent recovery, immunity to status, and makes it a great Knock Off switch-in
• Great stall breaker because of its access to Swords Dance, Taunt, and Poison Heal ability.
• Weakness to Water/Ice
• Limited offensive movepoo

It might be cool to say that he's a mixed tank since he's mainly played spe def which provides solid bulk in both physical/special one.

EVs: 244 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Spd

You're missing 8 EV and i suggest you to put it in def since bisharp can get a chance to OHKO gliscor after a sword dance with sucker punch, while with that you can live 100%.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 298-352 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

You should add Ferrothorn as team option since he can come on most gliscor checks/counters and get free hazard. (Keldeo since it will be locked on icy wind/scald, Rotom, Hippo, Ferro, starmie, Thundurus, slowbro)

Then i would have mentioned that most of water types can check gliscor such as Rotom-W / Keldeo / Starmie, so you should replace gyarados with Water-Types and add them.
Same for grass type, ferrothorn/serperior are pokemons that can give gliscor a hard time.
Plus every pokemons that got ground immu + something that can hit gliscor are good enough to be a check => Thundurus / Gengar / Lando-i, it's better than doing one per one while saying same thing imo.

QC 1/3 after that.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Disagreeing with the sub toxic set still being included on the analysis, its so inferior to the spdef and sd sets and its hopelessly walled by stuff like reuniclus, mg clef, and mega sableye.
e: also I'd really suggest making sd and stallbreaker two diff sets since they play very differently from each other

 

[Alfalfa]

Disagreeing with the sub toxic set still being included on the analysis, its so inferior to the spdef and sd sets and its hopelessly walled by stuff like reuniclus, mg clef, and mega sableye.
e: also I'd really suggest making sd and stallbreaker two diff sets since they play very differently from each other

I second this nomination, SubToxic is nothing more than a gimmick in the current state of the metagame.

I would not necessarily say that Gliscor has a limited offensive movepool, because it has all it would need in Earthquake, Stone Edge, Knock Off, Ice Fang, and even Acrobatics - Gliscor can easily choose what moves it needs according to what threats that it can and wants to beat. While that is a small movepool, Gliscor only needs to choose between those five moves when deciding what Pokemon it wants to check. Remove the mention of it having a limited offensive movepool in the overview.

 

[AM]

Subtoxic should be OO. It faces way too many hurdles in this meta-game and stall-breaker is simply superior enough where it should be the sole set. Make sure to add Leftiez's QC Check. Baton Pass should be in OO and set details on Stallbreaker set should be elaborated more in terms of benchmarks for speed, optional benchmarks of speed to check different stuff such as enough EVs to outpace Bisharp as one example. Also include Physically Defensive Gliscor under OO for its ability to check threats like Excadrill and M-Metagross a bit better. Stone Edge for Talonflames and Charizard switch ins under OO as well.

 

[chimpact]

With the SD set being so popular I feel like the Subtoxic set is still good enough to warrant not being in OO. I implemented all the other checks though.