Gods and Followers [OLD THREAD, PLEASE LOCK]

[Ghoul King]

It's not completely identical. Arceus is whatever type it is outside of battle based on what item its holding, while Groudon transforms in battle if it holds the Red Orb (at least I'm fairly sure that's how it works).

My main point was that Groudon's item cannot be stolen, Knock Offed, or otherwise manipulated to force Primal Groudon to reverse its Primal Reversion, so it's weird to treat Primal Groudon as not being a distinct option -it would be like saying all of Rotom's Forms are treated as Ghost/Electric, even though it's impossible to force them to change Forms.

But it's sort of irrelevant what my point was since, yay, Primal Groudon is a real boy option!

Primal Groudon and all Megas now use their altered typing when determining which types you can use on your team, provided you put their altered form in your teambuilder data.

The Megas thing is interesting for the few type combinations that are impossible to combine except via a Mega -such as Mega Altaria allowing Fairy/Dragon teams. I don't think it affects any current "standard" God choices, but that's OK.

Punishment

Stall actually does care about losing access to priority, particularly stuff like Poison Heal Gliscor potentially having to deal with Fake Out hitting it when it's trying to Protect. It's not nearly as crucial to stall as to other playstyles, and in particular the -1 priority is most punishing to Hyper Offense styles, but it's not actually irrelevant.

One alternative that is relatively neutral on playstyle (Overall it probably hates on Stall most and Hyper Offense least, but one could combine it with the existing punishment to "balance" things out) is to apply some degree of Pressure-style effect on every move used -lose 4 PP per move, say, and suddenly Fire Blast only has two uses, Softboiled only has 4 uses, etc.

coded+hosted

Holy crap

Maaaaan I wish I had the time today/tomorrow. Well, I guess I can design a team and try it out come Tuesday...

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

Suicide wish might become a thing on teams that need it, like an Electric team.
Oddly enough, Salamence of all Pokemon has access to Wish for a Dragon team. Latias also does, and is more likely.
EDIT: I made a team if anyone wants to play sometime. My username is Phishstik.

 

[DinaIsha]

Does anything with high HP get Wish and Final Gambit? Man, that'd be hilarious.

 

[EJ190]

Hey,Jajoken, since this meta already has elements of monotype in it, how about adding another metagame to it?
The pokemon in the "god" slot get a boost in every stat based on their tier (from tier shift) So
Ubers get +0
OU get +5
UU get+10
RU get+15
NU get+20
Little cup get +25(+30 if its not enough). I think this adds a lot of variety to the metagame. And since the rest of the team is limited to the type of your god, you can't just pick, say, moltress and call it a day.

 

[DinaIsha]

I'm thinking Defeatist is a good punishment, one that halves Def and SDef for Moms whose Def/SDef is the highest Stat or Attack and SAtk for Mons whose Atk/SAtk is their highest Stat.

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

Best team to use: PDon, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler.
Seriously, tho PDon teams get an excellent spinner in Excadrill, the priority master Talonflame, Char X or Y, Gliscor, Lando and Lando T, and of course the God among gods PDon.
It might be better if you do limit Groudon to a mono team, if not outright ban it. It's the only S++ rank for a reason.

 

[DinaIsha]

Not necessarily. A PDon team will have its own troubles beating a Bulky pivoting (Crocune/Aloomomola), Stally (Quagsire), Weather-warring (Politoed), SR-laying and Defogging (Empoleon), Spin-blocking and Burning (Jellicent) and Wall-breaking (Azumarill) overrule (POgre).

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Best team to use: PDon, filler, filler, filler, filler, filler.
Seriously, tho PDon teams get an excellent spinner in Excadrill, the priority master Talonflame, Char X or Y, Gliscor, Lando and Lando T, and of course the God among gods PDon.
It might be better if you do limit Groudon to a mono team, if not outright ban it. It's the only S++ rank for a reason.

Not only that. Pdon teams have pokes that possibly counter/check some of the gods like Excadrill for Zekrom, Mamo for Mega Mence, Lando T/Gliscor for opposing Pdon, Talonflame for Blaziken/Mega Blaziken, and ofc Pdon itself that checks on many ubers.

But I think it's kinda too early to say "ban Pdon." I say wait until people used other uber gods and say their opinion on Pdon. Pdon teams has no reliable clerics/wishpassers, making it basically forces you to play offensive/semi offensively.

 

[En Passant]

Not necessarily. A PDon team will have its own troubles beating a Bulky pivoting (Crocune/Aloomomola), Stally (Quagsire), Weather-warring (Politoed), SR-laying and Defogging (Empoleon), Spin-blocking and Burning (Jellicent) and Wall-breaking (Azumarill) overrule (POgre).

Except P-Don itself beats every one of those. Desolate Land prevents all of their Water moves from working, grants 1-turn Solarbeam to hit SE on all but Empoleon (who is destroyed by EQ/PB) plus its one weakness to Ground off of 150 SpA, overrides Primordial Sea if you switch in on it, and cannot be overridden except by said weather. I agree that it's too early to drop the banhammer, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the first to go.

 

[FlameUser64]

Except P-Don itself beats every one of those. Desolate Land prevents all of their Water moves from working, grants 1-turn Solarbeam to hit SE on all but Empoleon (who is destroyed by EQ/PB) plus its one weakness to Ground off of 150 SpA, overrides Primordial Sea if you switch in on it, and cannot be overridden except by said weather. I agree that it's too early to drop the banhammer, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the first to go.

Well, it can be temporarily ignored by Cloud Nine. Golduck4Ubers.

 

[Deathly ♛The King]

Yeah pDon is probably kinda broken... but anyways, I've tried this out a few times and have had great luck with both volcanion and reshiram as gods. Both get based rKiller TFlame, as well as getting good defoggers and rapid spinners such as tentacruel and lati@s. Volcanion was actually used a lot in the battle, and it turned out to be great. I was using an assvest set to make it as bulky as possible, and its steam eruptions hit really hard and gots burns when needed. These are some really cool pokemon to build teams around.

 

[DinaIsha]

As mentioned earlier, PDon teams have no Wish/Heal Bell support. And it's quite easy to Toxic PDon on a switch (Since it will voluntarily switch). Then it's downhill from there. For the same reason, I'd expect to see Vaporeon on every POgre team.

 

[canno]

the best way to beat PDon teams is to run your own PDon team for that based Ground STAB.

Anyways some cool "gods":

Altaria is pretty good because of the new rule, allowing Flying, Dragon, and Fairy Pokemon to be used on the same team. This adds a good amount of variety on these teams - you can run Lando-T, Clefable, Sylveon (for Altaria Stall :p), Latias, Skarmory, hell even Klefki for Xerneus gods. The only drawback I see is that you're trading an Uber God for a normal mon who can mega, which leaves you at a slight disadvantage against Ubergods. I mean, they're Uber for a reason! Still, M-Altaria isn't a bad Pokemon by itself (its actually kind of versatile) and grants a very unique pool of Pokemon.

In similar vein, Mega Charizard X teams can run Fire, Flying, and Dragon on the same team. You can also choose not to run any Dragon-types and fake out your opponent if you want ;p. This lets you run Lando-T (again), Heatran, Latios, Victini, and a bunch of other silly mons. Similar problems to Altaria teams in the shape of trading an Uber god for Zard X.

Xerneus teams might be worth it just because of Xerneus itself! The actual team doesn't have much variety, as there aren't that many Fairies. Still, there are a decent amount, and Xerneus can sweep teams by itself. One thing you need to watch out for is PDon, especially SpDef variants. There aren't a lot of mons to deal with it either in Fairy. However, if you take it down vs PDon teams its pretty much GG due to the main check dying and the debuff losing your god has. Most other mons in PDon teams can be dealt with by things like Azumarril.

Also PDon can run ResTalk or even just Rest if it's really weak to status. It limits moveslots but it deals with the status problem, gives it longevity, and gives it recovery all in one go. Definitely worth it.

As mentioned earlier, PDon teams have no Wish/Heal Bell support. And it's quite easy to Toxic PDon on a switch (Since it will voluntarily switch). Then it's downhill from there. For the same reason, I'd expect to see Vaporeon on every POgre team.

I know Flareon is shit, but come on! It gets both of those :(

 

[FlameUser64]

As mentioned earlier, PDon teams have no Wish/Heal Bell support. And it's quite easy to Toxic PDon on a switch (Since it will voluntarily switch). Then it's downhill from there. For the same reason, I'd expect to see Vaporeon on every POgre team.

That's technically a lie. Flareon may be suboptimal for the role, but it still exists and learns both Wish and Heal Bell. Oh, and Delphox is also able to learn Wish. Flareon is notable as the only Fire- or Ground-type to learn Heal Bell, however.

 

[22323002]

Two paired up

Espeed killer arceus and Ditto

Arceus as last resort but major sweeping.

Ditto for copying gods.

the other 4 i guess

Mega pidgeot cuz mega

Smeargle cuz hazards and baton passing

Blissey and furfrou cuz they synergize well

 

[DinaIsha]

That's technically a lie. Flareon may be suboptimal for the role, but it still exists and learns both Wish and Heal Bell. Oh, and Delphox is also able to learn Wish. Flareon is notable as the only Fire- or Ground-type to learn Heal Bell, however.

Technical, Smechnical. Both are weak to Rock and don't have high enough HP to keep PDon healed for a long time. Not to mention they're weak to Water as well.

Mega pidgeot cuz mega

You're not the hero Smogon OM deserves, but the one it needs.

 

[Jajoken]

I'm willing to suspect Red Orb (though it might get banned from Ubers anyway). However, I'd like to see a little more discussion on why Primal Groudon is overpowered/over-centralizing in this metagame specifically. Some discussion topics:

- What are the viable follower options for a Fire/Ground team?
- What weaknesses does this pool of followers have? (Water-weak, poor clerics, etc.)
- What strengths does Primal Groudon have over other god choices?
- What teams/gods/followers have success in the Primal Groudon match-up?
- What can a P-don team do to counteract these "bad" match-ups?

Replays would be nice if you have them. If there's enough support for a suspect test I'll start a poll -- not convinced enough to quick-ban it.

On the topic of tier-shift changes, I'd rather maintain the Ubers-OU power dynamic than increase the viability of lower tier gods. It's a fun idea, but one that changes the concept of the metagame too drastically.

I'll also hold off on the punishment change for now as well -- it hasn't been long enough to see how the priority debuff functions in actual games. Keep posting ideas, though.

 

[Enerdy]

Altaria is pretty good because of the new rule, allowing Flying, Dragon, and Fairy Pokemon to be used on the same team.

With the "new rule", you can select Altaria-Mega at Team Preview, with it then reverting to normal Altaria until you mega evolve... but this doesn't let you use three types. If you select Altaria-Mega, you can only use Dragon and Fairy types.

 

[FlameUser64]

I personally think that the new rule should be implemented by checking the held item of the lead. That way, you can set the pre-Mega ability for a Mega Evolution that you're using as your team's God. For example, regular Altaria without Altarianite = Dragon/Flying restriction. Regular Altaria holding Altarianite = Dragon/Fairy restriction. Given that you only have to check the lead slot's held item, it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Enerdy]

I personally think that the new rule should be implemented by checking the held item of the lead. That way, you can set the pre-Mega ability for a Mega Evolution that you're using as your team's God. For example, regular Altaria without Altarianite = Dragon/Flying restriction. Regular Altaria holding Altarianite = Dragon/Fairy restriction. Given that you only have to check the lead slot's held item, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Yeah but that's a lot of special cases to code :(

Well, the number of Mega Stones that change the user type isn't that high, but it forces these special cases to be hardcoded, which isn't great. Although it'd be interesting to select the pre-mega's ability.

 

[Jajoken]

I personally think that the new rule should be implemented by checking the held item of the lead. That way, you can set the pre-Mega ability for a Mega Evolution that you're using as your team's God. For example, regular Altaria without Altarianite = Dragon/Flying restriction. Regular Altaria holding Altarianite = Dragon/Fairy restriction. Given that you only have to check the lead slot's held item, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I just did some tests, and this is actually how the code works. Props to xfix -- I only set up the rule the way I did is to make the coding easier, but they found a way to make it work and I didn't even know it! I've edited the OP, but I'll say it here too: you do not need to place the Mega/Primal/Arceus form in the Teambuilder data. The code will automatically detect the proper item and change your requirements accordingly. My test was: basic Altaria w/ Altarianite + Talonflame was denied, but basic Altaria w/ Altarianite + Slurpuff was accepted.

Although fun fact -- in Teambuilder, you can set the ability of the Mega to the desired ability of the base form and it will work normally (ex: Mega Slowbro w/ Regenerator/Oblivious will still become Shell Armor). So this wasn't really a concern, but its nice that its simple.

 

[FlameUser64]

I just did some tests, and this is actually how the code works. Props to xfix -- I only set up the rule the way I did is to make the coding easier, but they found a way to make it work and I didn't even know it! I've edited the OP, but I'll say it here too: you do not need to place the Mega/Primal/Arceus form in the Teambuilder data. The code will automatically detect the proper item and change your requirements accordingly. My test was: basic Altaria w/ Altarianite + Talonflame was denied, but basic Altaria w/ Altarianite + Slurpuff was accepted.

Although fun fact -- in Teambuilder, you can set the ability of the Mega to the desired ability of the base form and it will work normally (ex: Mega Slowbro w/ Regenerator/Oblivious will still become Shell Armor). So this wasn't really a concern, but its nice that its simple.

Wait, you can determine the pre-Mega ability even if you select the Mega? So you just deliberately set Regenerator on Slowbro-Mega even though it shows as illegal, and when it appears as a Slowbro in-game it will have Regenerator before Mega Evolving? I did not know that, that's very nice.

Edit: More on-topic about the meta itself, but Volcanion teams sound fun. Fire/Water is a pretty great combination I think. Plus, Volcanion itself has some real utility as a Pokémon.

Also, Hoopa-Unbound sounds like it would be pretty neat as a leader. Problem is, it's horribly fragile. But it does give you a pair of very nice typings to work with. Gengar deals with many fairies that your Darks are weak to, while Darks deal with the Psychics, Darks, and Ghosts that threaten Gengar. Plus, you get things like Bisharp. Go-to cleric is almost certainly Umbreon.

 

[Jajoken]

Wait, you can determine the pre-Mega ability even if you select the Mega? So you just deliberately set Regenerator on Slowbro-Mega even though it shows as illegal, and when it appears as a Slowbro in-game it will have Regenerator before Mega Evolving? I did not know that, that's very nice.

I think aim pointed it out in one of his videos -- I've heard it somewhere. I usually just use the base form anyway, but its nice if you want to see the Mega stats while teambuilding.

 

[xfix]

I just did some tests, and this is actually how the code works. Props to xfix -- I only set up the rule the way I did is to make the coding easier, but they found a way to make it work and I didn't even know it! I've edited the OP, but I'll say it here too: you do not need to place the Mega/Primal/Arceus form in the Teambuilder data. The code will automatically detect the proper item and change your requirements accordingly. My test was: basic Altaria w/ Altarianite + Talonflame was denied, but basic Altaria w/ Altarianite + Slurpuff was accepted.

Yes. My code checks all Pokemon formes. If any of formes has a required item, and this item is one that is held, the type is assumed to be one of the forme.

By the way, I have a question. If somebody uses let's say, Mega Altaria, should that person be allowed to use Flying Pokemon? Technically speaking, there is no technical issue with that (implementation would be very easy). It's also possible to allow either Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Fairy monotype with Mega Altaria, but not Fairy/Flying.

 

[Jajoken]

Yes. My code checks all Pokemon formes. If any of formes has a required item, and this item is one that is held, the type is assumed to be one of the forme.

By the way, I have a question. If somebody uses let's say, Mega Altaria, should that person be allowed to use Flying Pokemon? Technically speaking, there is no technical issue with that (implementation would be very easy). It's also possible to allow either Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Fairy monotype with Mega Altaria, but not Fairy/Flying.

I think for now we should keep it the way it is. If someone is using a Mega stone, it is assumed that they will Mega evolve at some point, so their team should revolve around the typing of the Mega. It doesn't really effect any Ubers Pokemon anyway, and I don't want to start dealing with tri-type teams. Mega Gyarados shouldn't be a top tier god just because a team built around it has access to more Pokemon.