What do you see in Darkrai over Yveltal? Obviously higher Speed, Nasty Plot and Dark Void are great qualities for a Pokemon, but as a god, you're giving up two great recovery options, a ton of bulk and an entire type option for the team.
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Gods and Followers
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ive been toying with him a little bit, ill get back to you once i have a for sure team built and have enough games with it under my belt to make an informed statement.
Yveltal is probably always better. You get an entire array of flying types, which quite nicely resist the fighting and bug attacks that seek to destroy your darks. Yveltal has the power department down, especially because his odd speed stat allows him to run modest/mild nature.
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 149-177 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 195-230 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 214-253 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 195-230 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 214-253 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Darkrai is in a whole different speed tier, giving him a jump on MegaMence, Palkia, Greninja, Arceus, and others that Yveltal couldn't hope to outspeed (scarf is pretty bad on him). I still think that just isn't a good enough reason to use him, especially because Yveltal's sucker punch would 2HKO all of them anyway:
48 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 168-199 (43.9 - 52%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
48 Atk EV's is the standard mixed set. Add more if you want
48 Atk EV's is the standard mixed set. Add more if you want
Dark Void + Nasty Plot is another of Darkrai's highlights, but it's predictable, not extremely reliable (as accurate as Stone Edge for comparison) and Darkrai's sweep is ended by strong priority or a physical scarfer. If you really want to use Sleep status, Yveltal has flying types who surely can learn Hypnosis or Sleep powder or something.
All together, Yveltal is stronger, provides access to flying type teammates, has priority, can run mixed offensive spreads, and, oh yeah, his bulk:
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 168-199 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 175-208 (62 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 175-208 (62 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I've made the following changes:
5★ -> 4★
3★ -> 4★ (Fairy)
1★-> 2★ (Water)
1★-> 2★ (Steel)
2★ -> 1★ (Ice)
I've also noticed that the 4★ rank is a bit repetitive and would like some discussion on the following gods. If they are about equally effective in the metagame, I don't think there's a problem with keeping both of them at the same rank, but otherwise, one should probably drop.
vs.
(Fairy) : Briefly discussed. Both have a lot of variability but Xerneas has power and item freedom where Arceus-Fairy has bulk, speed, recovery and utility. I think they're both probably pretty equal post Geomancy ban but a little more discussion wouldn't hurt.
vs.
: No movepool differences, but Giratina-A is harder to take down with bulk and Leftovers, while Giratina-O provides offensive pressure and has a better ability. Giratina-A really only fits with full stall from what I've seen and I don't know how solid a stall team you can make with Dragon and Ghost, but maybe people have found success with it.
vs.
: This discussion already kind of happened but it was all over the place and didn't result in much. I think we've decided that normal Kyogre's matchup against Primal Groudon is actually fine unlike in Ubers (see my post on it a few pages back) so my gut instinct favors the normal form for its flexibility and team support, but I know people have strong opinions so I could go either way.
vs.
(Soul Dew): The classic OU debate, round 2. There are merits for both though I will say that Healing Wish is not a deciding factor this time, as using it on your god is really stupid.
I've also noticed that the 4★ rank is a bit repetitive and would like some discussion on the following gods. If they are about equally effective in the metagame, I don't think there's a problem with keeping both of them at the same rank, but otherwise, one should probably drop.
Speaking from experience Giratina-A stall is doable but perhaps not ideal.
Giratina-A,
Mega-Sableye,
Shedinja for some key special attackers,
Hydreigon for a token dark resist,
Tank Chomp for hazards and residual damage,
and unfortunately either doublade as your only possible steel,
or gengar for some decent speed and fairy killing
Then you do alright half the time and then get 6-0'd the other half by combinations that you can't physically prepare for.
I think Giratina-O is the superior choice if you want to utilize the unique typing on the team. Dragon/Ghost is exceptional offensive typing for a team but very lackluster defensively, unable to bring any good steels, fairies, heal bellers, or wish passers. Pretty paper thin defenses. That extra attack stat and gris orb are REALLY nice for clutch shadow sneaks. Also makes your coverage moves such as earth quake have more bite to them.
Offensive teammate options for Giratina-O include Latios, Gengar, Hydreigon with a nice u-turn option, Rotom with a nice volt switch option, Hoopa and Kyurem-B for wallbreaking, Dragonite with its myriad sets, mega Altaria for sweeping, mega Latias for support, mega-Bannete for prankster d-bond, Froslass and Cofagrius and Dragalge have hazards for pressure against fatties, sash Chomp and sash Golurk get up rocks easy, and there's even cheese like Drifblim and Tyrantrum that you can try.
Your team naturally comes PACKED with spin blockers which comes in handy quite often.
Dragon/Ghost is EXTRAORDINARY offensive typing, considering the options you get. Just as most teams don't carry much dark resists at ALL unless they're fairy, most teams also don't carry much ghost resists at all unless they're normal. You can spam those shadow balls and phantom forces with no regard for switch ins. The main weakness of the archetype may be Giratina-O itself which seemingly doesn't hit hard enough for an uber. It's strongest STABs are awkward to use because draco lowers sp.atk and phantom force waits a turn. Giratina-O doesn't really come in and start rekking like palkia, yveltal, and reshiram do. It's not weak, of course. It's just that OU actually has many things that hit harder and faster lol.
The best thing about giratina is definitely the otherwise impossible offensive combinations you can get.
How else can you (reasonably) get gengar and altaria on the same team? How else can you get Hoopa and Garchomp on the same team?
It's alright. I like it. But it's not the best, it just has a super neat typing niche for making some cool HO teams.
Giratina-A,
Mega-Sableye,
Shedinja for some key special attackers,
Hydreigon for a token dark resist,
Tank Chomp for hazards and residual damage,
and unfortunately either doublade as your only possible steel,
or gengar for some decent speed and fairy killing
Then you do alright half the time and then get 6-0'd the other half by combinations that you can't physically prepare for.
I think Giratina-O is the superior choice if you want to utilize the unique typing on the team. Dragon/Ghost is exceptional offensive typing for a team but very lackluster defensively, unable to bring any good steels, fairies, heal bellers, or wish passers. Pretty paper thin defenses. That extra attack stat and gris orb are REALLY nice for clutch shadow sneaks. Also makes your coverage moves such as earth quake have more bite to them.
Offensive teammate options for Giratina-O include Latios, Gengar, Hydreigon with a nice u-turn option, Rotom with a nice volt switch option, Hoopa and Kyurem-B for wallbreaking, Dragonite with its myriad sets, mega Altaria for sweeping, mega Latias for support, mega-Bannete for prankster d-bond, Froslass and Cofagrius and Dragalge have hazards for pressure against fatties, sash Chomp and sash Golurk get up rocks easy, and there's even cheese like Drifblim and Tyrantrum that you can try.
Your team naturally comes PACKED with spin blockers which comes in handy quite often.
Dragon/Ghost is EXTRAORDINARY offensive typing, considering the options you get. Just as most teams don't carry much dark resists at ALL unless they're fairy, most teams also don't carry much ghost resists at all unless they're normal. You can spam those shadow balls and phantom forces with no regard for switch ins. The main weakness of the archetype may be Giratina-O itself which seemingly doesn't hit hard enough for an uber. It's strongest STABs are awkward to use because draco lowers sp.atk and phantom force waits a turn. Giratina-O doesn't really come in and start rekking like palkia, yveltal, and reshiram do. It's not weak, of course. It's just that OU actually has many things that hit harder and faster lol.
The best thing about giratina is definitely the otherwise impossible offensive combinations you can get.
How else can you (reasonably) get gengar and altaria on the same team? How else can you get Hoopa and Garchomp on the same team?
It's alright. I like it. But it's not the best, it just has a super neat typing niche for making some cool HO teams.
I would say it definitly deserves ★★★★★ , in the current metagame there are few reliable Arceus check {M-Sableye , Defensive Yveltal , Skarmory be aware of fire moove) other ubers check are irrevlant because they are or are almost innexistant (Arceus ghost , and for giratina and lugia they get destroyed if rocks are UP and IF they lives because they had no prior damage , yes you phazed him but your gods is so low and it will come in again later ) Well with his natural bulk and carrying a Lum Berry this monster can setup and sweep almost on any mons who isn't a threat for him , im asking myself if this thing need to be suspected .
Deoxys-Attack to ★★ rank
Obviously it needs to hold a Sash , a Latias support and M-Mewto/Souldrew latios outclass him, BUT he have the FASTEST E-speed it means Doexys does beat Arceus if sash keeped indeed , when almost nothing can switch into with a mixed set ( not even dialga team ice beam+lowkick ) while his e-speed hits hard and pickup some nice kill on priority/scarf user (like talonflamme !)
(http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-318926225
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-318518499
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-318491999
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-318487306)
His niche deserves a second star ? I would say Maybe
Kyogre to ★★★★★
Over is primal version it can holds an item , modest scarf under the train hits like a trucks with a decent bulk with only 2 weakness , in mind there are P-Don , Latias , Palkia and the rarelly seen SpeDef Gastrodon who can switch into this monster almost everytime it comes on board it strikes , and hard .
While Arceus E-Killer team is Arceus+Mons who are there dealing dommage/taking care to his checks , Kyogre partners can themselves sweep under the rain , M-Swampert is the perfect mate , Electric immunity, bulk , insane Waterfall drop , Banded Azumarill's Aqua-Jet , Kindra's Meteor .
It's requiere not that much high lvl of prediction , you can sometimes just click your water stab and win .
I will add , half of the top 5/10 off G&F Ladder use Kyogre , It should rise .
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Mq
It's Megaqwer's Time!
Okay heres a team i am playing with and it seems to have no major problems but yeah for now,water teams "do" give a bit of trouble.Skipping my chit-chat back to the team
Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Return
- Earthquake
Salamence is a 5 star god right now, and its easy to see why. I chose it because of its incredible typing, but it's bulk has never failed to net it key setup turns. Flying+ground is amazing coverage, only missing out on Eelectross, non-mow Rotom, Skarmory, Aerodactyl, Zapdos, Thundurus and Archeops. Dragon Dance allows for Salamence to sweep entire teams, and Roost gives it the health to set up multiple times.
Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost
Talonflame is one of the best pokemon in OU, and here its back with a vengeance. With a sharp beak and a swords dance under its bely, brave bird destroys any pokemon that doesn't resist. Flare blitz is another powerful, secondary stab that hits most types that resist flying for neutral damage. Swords dance can take advantage of the many switches talonflame causes, and add a whole new level of fear to the opponents decision making, while roost can allow you to recover hp and deal with pesky Ice or Electric attacks.
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 240 Atk / 16 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
My team was looking weak to setup sweeping and needed a strong rock and electric resist. I then turned to Garchomp, and old OU staple. With a choice scarf, Garchomp outspeeds important threats like +1 Charizard-Mega-X, Thundurus, scarf Hoopa-U, and Mega Lopunny. scarf is there to punish any attempts to KO before it kits because most priority is physical.
Between earthquake and stone edge, garchomp gets perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Bronzong. Fire blast smacks that for se damage and roarst Ferrothorn switchins hoping to deal free damage with Iron Barbs. It also deals solid damage to skarmory. Outrage is a secondary stab to nuke things that don't resist.
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Defog
With talonflame, rocks removal is key. because of this I chose to slap Skarmory on my team. Skarmory's excellent typing and bulk allow it to almost always get of a defog, which Talonflame and Salamence greatly appreciate. Toxic is there to damage switch ins and lets Skarmory do some stallbreaking. Whirlwind allows it to also act as a blanket check to setup sweeping, surviving any hit with sturdy and fazing away their boosts. roost allows for Skarmory to recover health and keep sturdy intact, while Rocky Helmet punishes the physical attackers Skarmory walls.
Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Healing Wish
While this may not seem like it fits the team, Latias is actually one of its most important members healing wish is the crucial one- if I screw up and let Salamence get statused, or Talonflame gets too weak to switch in on rocks, then I can cure that in an instant. It also acts as an emergency special wall, especially for electric and fire types that threaten Skarmory. It even has an offensive presense!
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Explosion
The last slot was mostly a tossup. I had no more pokemon I needed, but I still had this spot. Eventually, I decided on a stronger check to setup- Landorus-Therian. With Intimidate, any Dragon Dance/Swords Dance sweeper losses a lot of their teeth, and it can outspeed the slower ones. It has the wonderful edgequake coverage, and u-turn to pivot out. While I debated knock off in the last slot, the coverage wasn't needed and my team already beats Chansey. I instead chose the power than is explosion, which can ko most things that would try to switch in and is a great way to gain momentum vs foes that can survive a u-turn and you cant afford to let stay in.
Just asking that,is M-Sableye broken?
Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Return
- Earthquake
Salamence is a 5 star god right now, and its easy to see why. I chose it because of its incredible typing, but it's bulk has never failed to net it key setup turns. Flying+ground is amazing coverage, only missing out on Eelectross, non-mow Rotom, Skarmory, Aerodactyl, Zapdos, Thundurus and Archeops. Dragon Dance allows for Salamence to sweep entire teams, and Roost gives it the health to set up multiple times.
Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost
Talonflame is one of the best pokemon in OU, and here its back with a vengeance. With a sharp beak and a swords dance under its bely, brave bird destroys any pokemon that doesn't resist. Flare blitz is another powerful, secondary stab that hits most types that resist flying for neutral damage. Swords dance can take advantage of the many switches talonflame causes, and add a whole new level of fear to the opponents decision making, while roost can allow you to recover hp and deal with pesky Ice or Electric attacks.
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 240 Atk / 16 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
My team was looking weak to setup sweeping and needed a strong rock and electric resist. I then turned to Garchomp, and old OU staple. With a choice scarf, Garchomp outspeeds important threats like +1 Charizard-Mega-X, Thundurus, scarf Hoopa-U, and Mega Lopunny. scarf is there to punish any attempts to KO before it kits because most priority is physical.
Between earthquake and stone edge, garchomp gets perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Bronzong. Fire blast smacks that for se damage and roarst Ferrothorn switchins hoping to deal free damage with Iron Barbs. It also deals solid damage to skarmory. Outrage is a secondary stab to nuke things that don't resist.
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Defog
With talonflame, rocks removal is key. because of this I chose to slap Skarmory on my team. Skarmory's excellent typing and bulk allow it to almost always get of a defog, which Talonflame and Salamence greatly appreciate. Toxic is there to damage switch ins and lets Skarmory do some stallbreaking. Whirlwind allows it to also act as a blanket check to setup sweeping, surviving any hit with sturdy and fazing away their boosts. roost allows for Skarmory to recover health and keep sturdy intact, while Rocky Helmet punishes the physical attackers Skarmory walls.
Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Healing Wish
While this may not seem like it fits the team, Latias is actually one of its most important members healing wish is the crucial one- if I screw up and let Salamence get statused, or Talonflame gets too weak to switch in on rocks, then I can cure that in an instant. It also acts as an emergency special wall, especially for electric and fire types that threaten Skarmory. It even has an offensive presense!
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Explosion
The last slot was mostly a tossup. I had no more pokemon I needed, but I still had this spot. Eventually, I decided on a stronger check to setup- Landorus-Therian. With Intimidate, any Dragon Dance/Swords Dance sweeper losses a lot of their teeth, and it can outspeed the slower ones. It has the wonderful edgequake coverage, and u-turn to pivot out. While I debated knock off in the last slot, the coverage wasn't needed and my team already beats Chansey. I instead chose the power than is explosion, which can ko most things that would try to switch in and is a great way to gain momentum vs foes that can survive a u-turn and you cant afford to let stay in.
Just asking that,is M-Sableye broken?
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These are my thoughts on the whole God v God thing.
Kyogre v PKyogre -
Gira-A v Gira-O -
Xerneas v Arc-Fairy -
Soul Dew Latios v Soul Dew Latias -
And also, all these MegaMence teams being posted makes me want to submit my own relatively successful one (I got to #175 on the ladder with it :D). I have it mostly written, but I just need to post it.
Kyogre v PKyogre -
I honestly feel Kyogre is better than POgre here. It's ability allows the running of rain offense teams, which can really plow through your team if you're not ready. I feel rain teams are the best way to run it as it doesn't have much of anything else that's viable in terms of team support - mono water is. Scarfed Kyogre with Water Spout can sweep teams on it's own if given half the chance and hazards are off the field, or at least from my experience. Primal Kyogre... I don't feel it. I think the main reason it's run in Ubers over base is because PDon is everywhere and it can check it. Kyogre has Water Spout which hits harder than POgre's Origin Pulse, and with scarf, it is an absolute monster of an offensive threat, because, unless it's up against a PDon, and assuming it's health is high, there are VERY few switchins for a Kyogre's Water Spout. Specs Kyogre's Water Spout gets to such a point of absurdity that I think only Soul Dew Latias, Palkia, and PDon are the only commonly seen reliable switch ins - And they're all Gods.
On top of that, Kyogre's teammates can do massive damage, as using it's rain to foster a rain team is a huge missed opportunity. It's got tons of great partners, like Mega Swampert, who is pretty much rain's equivalent of Excadrill minus the Life Orb, Kingdra, who can drop dracos and throw out massive Hydro Pumps, and, speaking of massive Hydro Pumps, you get terrors like Omastar, who gets Swift Swim and a hefty special attack stat to go with it, Keldeo, who with specs, was suspected in B/W because of it's sheer power, and is a very good offensive 'mon in OU and can really dent normal teams. However, Primal Kyogre does have a lot more special bulk, and has more power than scarf as well as being able to mix up attacks if it needs to, but it's slow for a God, and it's physical bulk is meh for a God. tbh I kind of think Base Kyogre should be ★★★★★ and Primal Kyogre ★★★★
On top of that, Kyogre's teammates can do massive damage, as using it's rain to foster a rain team is a huge missed opportunity. It's got tons of great partners, like Mega Swampert, who is pretty much rain's equivalent of Excadrill minus the Life Orb, Kingdra, who can drop dracos and throw out massive Hydro Pumps, and, speaking of massive Hydro Pumps, you get terrors like Omastar, who gets Swift Swim and a hefty special attack stat to go with it, Keldeo, who with specs, was suspected in B/W because of it's sheer power, and is a very good offensive 'mon in OU and can really dent normal teams. However, Primal Kyogre does have a lot more special bulk, and has more power than scarf as well as being able to mix up attacks if it needs to, but it's slow for a God, and it's physical bulk is meh for a God. tbh I kind of think Base Kyogre should be ★★★★★ and Primal Kyogre ★★★★
Gira-A v Gira-O -
Giratina-A is, quite frankly, as bulky as they come. Lugia might be slightly bulkier, but that's only slightly. To be honest though, Gira-A's bulk is a tad overkill. Gira-O is already extraordinarily bulky - It can live a single +1 MegaMence's Return from an offensive variant UNINVESTED, from my experience. However, by Uber standards (in fact, by OU standards to a degree), even Gira-O's attack is lacking. Griseous Orb gives it's STABs a kick, but even then, it's damage is falling short of several OU threats like Latios, and is FAR below the standards of many Gods. It's ghost STAB is a 2 turn move, giving a team with a normal type ample opportunity to switch into it, and it's other STAB is either too weak, kills it's special attack, or just makes it complete fairy or steel bait.
However, what they both provide defensively is excellent - They're both pretty much the bulkiest spin blockers available that isn't an Arceus form. Giratina-A is extremely passive, though, much like Lugia, and it's team options are... Meh in terms of stall. It gets Mega Sableye The Stall Enabler, sure, but it's other options for stallier teams are meh at best. Giratina as a whole is also weak to the relatively common and pretty good Yveltal, and it's options to beat it are basically Hydreigon (who can't hit super effectively) and hoping to Arceus it's physical so Mega Sableye or Giratina can burn it, and then remember it also gets Foul Play so that's not helping. Overall, I feel Gira-O is the better option because it can actually damage things, as small as that damage may be, and it's teammates are actually good on it's playstyle..
However, what they both provide defensively is excellent - They're both pretty much the bulkiest spin blockers available that isn't an Arceus form. Giratina-A is extremely passive, though, much like Lugia, and it's team options are... Meh in terms of stall. It gets Mega Sableye The Stall Enabler, sure, but it's other options for stallier teams are meh at best. Giratina as a whole is also weak to the relatively common and pretty good Yveltal, and it's options to beat it are basically Hydreigon (who can't hit super effectively) and hoping to Arceus it's physical so Mega Sableye or Giratina can burn it, and then remember it also gets Foul Play so that's not helping. Overall, I feel Gira-O is the better option because it can actually damage things, as small as that damage may be, and it's teammates are actually good on it's playstyle..
Xerneas v Arc-Fairy -
Honestly, they break even. Sure, Xerneas can hold an item and hits harder with it's STAB, but Arceus is very bulky, fast, and has a much larger movepool. Arceus Fairy has recovery and tons of cool options, but Xerneas has options that can benefit it's team, like Aromatherapy. They're both fine where they are imo.
Soul Dew Latios v Soul Dew Latias -
I think Latios is the clear winner - Latias' big niche over Latios is Healing Wish, and that's very, very bad for a God, so that's out of the equation. Latias' only niche here is checking Kyogre, PDon, and most non-Dragon special attackers more reliably. Latios can already Defog and has nice recovery options already. Sure, they both have astronomical special bulk, but Latios is the only one of the two with a commonly invested in stat that gets boosted by Soul Dew. Unless Sp.Def Latias became popular recently, that is.
I think it's quite crazy, definitely ★★★★★, but probably not ban worthy. And please, let's TRY not to ban every single sweeper God. GeoXern and Mega Ray were special cases (GeoXern could beat almost all of it's checks some way, and MRay flat out had none except MAYBE prankster Thunder Wave/Will-O-Wisp), but Arceus has actual checks, limited to types as they may be (though that it is the inherent nature of these Gods - They were banned from OU because these things were so strong they had no counters or were just mascot legends). EKiller is checked by MegaMence, Skarmory (Sp.Def Skarmory beats even Fire Blast variants btw), MSable, defensive Yveltal/Xerneas, Lugia, Clefable, Ferrothorn (in spite of the occasional Fire Blast move), Giratina (both forms), and more, relatively reliably. That's already a LOT more than either MRay or GeoXern. For reference, GeoXern only had checks on 5ish types. EKiller Arceus checks exist on at least 7 types, and that's just the ones I listed. You're not exactly having to use relatively meh sets or Gods just to beat them like with GeoXern. MegaMence and Yveltal aren't exactly bad, the former especially. Personally, if any God is going to be suspected, it'll probably be MegaMence. Do note though, if it's deemed too much, I'm not entirely opposed. What I'm saying is that it's a LOT easier to beat than GeoXern or MRay. I'll probably change my mind if someone prooves it's almost much less stoppable than I thought.
And also, all these MegaMence teams being posted makes me want to submit my own relatively successful one (I got to #175 on the ladder with it :D). I have it mostly written, but I just need to post it.
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Not every team can really cope with Darkrai's presence at all. It's lightning fast, with few OU options able to outpace it without a Scarf, it can mostly-reliably buy itself a turn with Dark Void to then Nasty Plot, making it extremely difficult to manage a switch in on it, particularly since it can predict an attempt at a Sleep fodder switch in and often 2HKO whatever tried to absorb the Sleep, many teams have little or no access to priority, let alone priority effective against it/strong enough to substantially threaten it, etc. It's incredibly threatening when it's in your face, and not every God has anything to use as a hard stop to it. (Not a Fairy God? No Clefable for you)
If I'm building a team and my God's utility in the fight itself is a low priority, Yveltal is definitely superior. Darkrai edges out Yveltal in ability to pressure the enemy team and potentially grab a sweep, often even when the enemy team has suffered little or no damage.
Wait, there's Flying types that have Nasty Plot alongside highly reliable Sleep now, and enough Special Attack and a good, widely effective Special STAB to abuse this all with?
Dexsearch says: no, no there's not. Crobat (Hypnosis) and Chatot (Sing) are the only Flying types to even have a Sleep-inducing move and Nasty Plot. Neither of them comes close to Darkrai's 135 Special Attack. (Though Chatot's access to Boomburst arguably makes up for this)
The point of Dark Void is that it allows Darkrai to initiate setting up and sweeping on anything that isn't immune to Sleep, isn't Magic Bounce, and doesn't carry Sleep Talk. It's not simply about Sleeping a key threat, though it can do that too.
Not every team has strong priority. Groudon has nearly no access to priority of any kind, for instance, being limited to a couple of Ice Sharders, a few Sucker Punchers (Only Golem and maybe Dugtrio being sensical to run it on), and three Quick Attackers, Diggersby being the only one that's even slightly notable for potentially using it. Note that Breloom, Infernape, Magmortar, and (hah) Ledian are the only Pokemon in the entire game that have Mach Punch that aren't pure Fighting types -so Fire, Grass, and technically Bug and Flying teams, in addition to Fighting teams, can bring to bear a Mach Puncher to hard-stop Darkrai. Other priority is not necessarily strong enough to be a problem.
Grass? Grass is kind of shit for Gods and Followers, with the only Uber Grass types being Shaymin-Sky (Tried it, it's not very good) and Arceus-Grass. (Has much better options to be running) Ledian is awful, period. That leaves Fighting and Fire teams -and frankly Darkrai's fear of Fighting types is pretty obvious (Mono-Dark and all) and something its team will be constructed to account for, presumably. (Blaziken, Mega Lucario, and Arceus-Fighting are the only Fighting-team Gods, and in my experience the first two tend to struggle and nobody has ever fielded the last one that I've seen. Might give it a shot myself, honestly)
The Scarfer, meanwhile, can't switch in directly, safely. (Oh, and Scarves are generally unused on stall and semi-stall teams) If Darkrai KOs something before you can get the Scarfer in, it's done work. Being a Dark type, it's not even that scared of Pursuit, poor Physical defense or no, and, again, many teams don't even have access to Pursuit anyway.
tl;dr version: There are multiple Gods that Darkrai can murder them+their team where they have a devil of a time successfully implementing checks or counters of any kind, let alone bringing them in to check/counter Darkrai without suffering a casualty somewhere along the way.
Yveltal is less matchup-influenced and has more diverse teams, of course, and in particular is more resistant to offensive pressure, but I don't think Yveltal simply crushes, singlehandedly, entire otherwise-viable teams the way Darkrai can.
---
On Kyogre vs Primal Kyogre, I also feel like Kyogre is generally the better God, enough so to justify dropping Primal Kyogre a star. It can support a Rain team, and its Scarf Spout sets are murderous against non-Primal Groudon teams. Primal Kyogre has the ability to switch into Primal Groudon and shut off its weather, of course, but that's iffy -Primal Groudon can 2HKO Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades, while Primal Groudon can switch in on Primal Kyogre's Special attacks a lot more safely, so the advantage Primal Kyogre has against Primal Groudon is smaller than you'd think.
The other God close comparisons I have no particular opinion on.
megaqwer:D If you're using a secondary Scarf then I suggest Kyurem as you get another Ice neutrality, a good win condition against opposing MegaSalamence teams, a great way to pressure Yvetal / Groudon / Lugia teams & a check to Kyogre.
Kyurem is a great choice, especially since it sits in a better speed tier. However, there are a few downsides, namely-
Kyurem has no pivoting move. If it got volt switch from Zekrom it would, but it doesn't.
Kyurem has no edgequake (it does get boltbeam, but one of them is special)
Kyurem has no way to remove itself from the battle.
Kyurem doesn't have intimidate. Kyurem black is a good choice, but it is still slower that common ou threats at +1 while lacking intimidate to soften their blow. It has its advantages, but its not totally superior.
Mq
It's Megaqwer's Time!
thx!i will try that and reply ASAP as i can
The problem is that Landorus is redundant alongside Garchomp, as they pretty much revenge the same stuff, the only real downside is lack of U-turn but otherwise if you're using them both to revenge kill then it's better to use Kyurem as to not be walled by the exact same pokemon, and because this way you don't completely lose to Ice Shard users once Landorus is a little bit weakened (or if they boost).
So: Fighting Arceus. It's... a thing.
It's not precisely bad... and Fighting Judgment is a serious problem for a surprising number of teams, especially when backed by Calm Mind. I've given serious consideration to dropping Shadow Ball in favor of Refresh -I almost never use Shadow Ball, in practice, where I frequently run into trouble from Paralysis or Toxic, and Ghosts aren't very common on teams and my other team members are generally able to handle the Ghosts anyway.
Still, it's difficult to find an answer to friggin' Talonflame, since only three Fighting types aren't weak to Flying (Terrakion, Cobalion, and Lucario), recovery outside of Drain Punch is nearly nonexistent, hazard management is limited, clerical options are nil... at the same time, the sheer, overwhelming firepower Team Fighting can bring to bear is surprising, and many teams aren't actually prepared for this consistent level of force.
I'm having fun with it, but it's not nearly as stable as my Primal Groudon team at winning. When problems crop up, they tend to cascade: one Pokemon death becomes two, and now I can't cope with some other problem Pokemon. That kind of thing.
It's not precisely bad... and Fighting Judgment is a serious problem for a surprising number of teams, especially when backed by Calm Mind. I've given serious consideration to dropping Shadow Ball in favor of Refresh -I almost never use Shadow Ball, in practice, where I frequently run into trouble from Paralysis or Toxic, and Ghosts aren't very common on teams and my other team members are generally able to handle the Ghosts anyway.
Still, it's difficult to find an answer to friggin' Talonflame, since only three Fighting types aren't weak to Flying (Terrakion, Cobalion, and Lucario), recovery outside of Drain Punch is nearly nonexistent, hazard management is limited, clerical options are nil... at the same time, the sheer, overwhelming firepower Team Fighting can bring to bear is surprising, and many teams aren't actually prepared for this consistent level of force.
I'm having fun with it, but it's not nearly as stable as my Primal Groudon team at winning. When problems crop up, they tend to cascade: one Pokemon death becomes two, and now I can't cope with some other problem Pokemon. That kind of thing.
I remember you destroyed my MLuc team with that Arceus. 120 speed firing off +1 fighting Judgements against a team composed of steel and fighting types is a very terrifying thing. Your team seemed to be really good against offensive teams with ground, dragon, normal, water, or steel type gods, but I can't really see it beating a MegaMence/Rayquaza team, which are extremely popular.
It's a good team though, I have to give you credit for how great a sweep you had
Annoyingly, I haven't fought either of those with the team. I dunno how well it performs in practice against them.
Thus far, the biggest problem for the team has actually been Mega Sableye -if I drop Shadow Ball on Arceus for Refresh, I have no real answers to it, not even stuff like Guts Conkeldurr. (Meloetta-Pirouette and Gallade are the only Fighting types to so much as have Dazzling Gleam, Fairy moves-wise) I thought Bulk Up Shed Skin Scrafty would work, but it's too slow -the enemy just switches in some other problem Pokemon. I'm going to give Scrappy Pangoro a shot, though I foresee problems from its inability to switch in on a Will O Wisp without Lum or something.
Flying and Psychic teams are nuisances, but tend to hinge more on good prediction on my part than anything else. I usually can defeat them fairly reliable, and in particular if I can get Arceus into position to get up a Calm Mind or two in reasonable safety, very often I can sweep from there.
Fairy teams are aggravating. Strangely, the most problematic Pokemon has been Mega Diancie -so much so I've considered Bullet Punch Lucario just to have a hard stop to it.
The lack of real walls (Outside Arceus itself) makes it tricky to switch in on problem Pokemon, which is maddening. Fighting is just bad at providing switch-ins to... a lot of types of things. I thought Conkeldurr would work as a Status absorber, and... no, not really? Like, it can take a Will O Wisp from Mega Sableye, but then it can't do better than 30-35% to it with Knock Off without boosting, its only boosting is Bulk Up, and improving its ability to take on Mega Sableye tends to hurt its ability to take on other teams.
Oh, and of course the Hitmons are your only hazard manager, which is imperfect.
Surprisingly, the team does fairly well against Yveltal teams. It's tricky switching in on it, since it'll just spam Oblivion Wing, but a lot of my team members terrify it so that's not so bad a threat.
My worst matchup so far is Lugia. I actually implemented Toxic on my Scarf Terrakion pretty much entirely to deal with Lugia.
Your bulkiest fighting types based on the 3 defensive stat BSTs, ability and resistances would be:
Scrafty (295 + Intimidate)
MegaHeracross (300)
Cobalion & Virizion (292)
Throh (290)
Chesnaught (285)
Hitmontop (255 + Intimidate)
Poliwrath (275 + Water absorb)
Conkeldurr (265)
Haryama (264 + Thick Fat)
MY MAN RIGHT HERE Machamp (255)
and Eviolite Gurdurr/Machoke
MegaHeracross (300)
Cobalion & Virizion (292)
Throh (290)
Chesnaught (285)
Hitmontop (255 + Intimidate)
Poliwrath (275 + Water absorb)
Conkeldurr (265)
Haryama (264 + Thick Fat)
MY MAN RIGHT HERE Machamp (255)
and Eviolite Gurdurr/Machoke
This list is of course selective, I tried to pick ones with decent chances at being defensive (Emboar has 110/65/65 = 240, but it is never used defensively and for good reason). Anyway, out of the options I would have to declare Scrafty w Intimidate to be the best overall fighting-type switchin, because of its added dark typing, high defenses, and -1 Atk for the opponent. Poliwrath and Throh are bulky phasers, the former with resistances and one immunity, the latter with Guts for status absorbing and higher overall bulk. Chesnaught is great for hazard laying and walking EdgeQuake among other combos. Cobalion & Virizion are offensive pivots for their respective defensive stat. Hitmontop can spin and take a hit, however his offense is lacking comparatively.
Those are my suggestions, I'm sure you have looked at most of them already, but in case there are some you didn't consider here they are.
Mq
It's Megaqwer's Time!
Jajoken did you forget to add this team to the op?I can see mine but not his......Hi , going to show a Greninja team , i peaked at 1 , got actually no proof of it sadly . I had no clue there was a ladder for this meta , only latter i noticed it LMAO , i was 24/2 and dropped to 25/7 and lost around 110~120points (4of them are against the same guys and his shaymin-s team if you come by here , big up to you!) Ps: 3Knock off miss in a row on a defiant defog imade me tilt a lot :p
Before descripting the team , let's talk about me :im from UU and got a lot a knowledge about it and that's why there's a lot of this meta impregned into this team (Lastyear before the reset i had 5account top 30-50 and reached some times top 5 , first and snd were actually hold by pif and bob with some much points :s)
I cameback when i heard from a friend dawnt was retested and finally got unbanned <3<3<3 humhum ...
That's all about me there the team ( for being honest set and evs spread migth not be the truth i'll probably post the real one later but you should get the grand line , every decent builder don't give his secret to anyone :PPP)
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Low Kick
Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Roar
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 216 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Toxic
- Knock Off
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
- Psyshock
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Brave Bird
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Toxic
How i built the team :
So we start with our god ,
Being classed at 2stars you migth think this mons sucks when you can pick some "broken" other god but this thing blows hole , he got so much coverage and sheerpower with a good speedtier
So i needed a rock setter , with our ninja god typing there wasn't that much of good mons who had this post, adding the fact that thing got a flying resist because fly spam is strong af , got acces to a stabbed pursuit for lugia ,latias and cie , hit like a truck while being uninvested , phaze aswell and can lure some mons with the right set and evs (kinda helps about what i wrote earlier for the neophyte) while being bulky in BOTH stats because of the sand <3) note: Swampert might be a choice over m-tyra for the electric immunity but isn't couteau-suisse like as tyra (and he's ugly meh) if you do that swap slowbro for the mega version ( let's be honest regenerator core is stupid with the two next mons , they almost 2v6 a lot of bad p-don team/arceus-ground)
Here goes the aids-rege core of slowbro and alomola and got a nice wish for our fatty m-tar , now you are ready to stall with burn/poison+weather dommage , i loved that core before ORAS went out and slowbro got moved to OU (with raikou T_T )
Im a big fan of honchrow, after a moxie it can ohko a looot of thing , you know this thing is dumb after +1 it does half of yvental hp with a suckerpunch .. and it's a bird, because bird spam and we do not get acces of talonflamme with our actual god
Hazard removal was still left , we add another ground immunity acces to a decent fast taunt if you run it over toxic thing i probablly do :p and you beat m-sableye 1v1 after he got m-evolved , overcoat sosandstorm.Despite his apparence and being a UU mons it does really well eating d-metor like a breakfeast
For the list of threat i may be adding it later if ppl asks for it , im done
Have a good day ,)
The problem is, a wall/pseudo-wall needs to be able to switch in on problem Pokemon to help the team. Scrafty and Pangoro are actually decent at switching in on (most) Psychic types, between the immunity to Psychic and their general bulk allowing them to tank a lot of neutral hits and even some weaker super effective coverage hits, for example, making them usable at switching in on most Psychic types, which are of course a problem for an all-Fighting team... but of course are hilariously bad at switching in on Fairies and aren't that good at switching in on Flying types, either.
I might have to bring in Cobalion just because it has none of Fighting's weaknesses and is reasonably bulky.
Emboar is actually only marginally more bulky than Infernape if they both run Physically or Specially Defensive, and Infernape has Slack Off. I might go with it as a combination Status absorber/Status spreader/Fairy check. (Not much help against Togekiss, mind...)
Talonflame is still the most frustrating problem. What I wouldn't give for a Flying immunity Ability (Or a priority immunity Ability) on a Fighting type... that wasn't vulnerable to Fire...
As we progress into the last week-ish of the ladder, I'd like to start updating the replays section of the OP. If you've participated in/watched a particularly close or skillful match (especially for unique god matchups) and have the replay saved, I highly encourage you to post it in this thread. Just list the two gods and (if you'd like, a short description of why it's a good replay) and I'll post it in the OP.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Mq
It's Megaqwer's Time!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321594104
Well i was against a Mega Rayquaza which is no big deal,but the match is.Worth to watch
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321594104
And sorry guys! I got shitted by G&F ladder :/
Well i was against a Mega Rayquaza which is no big deal,but the match is.Worth to watch
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321594104
And sorry guys! I got shitted by G&F ladder :/
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Had a recent close match between my 'mence team (which I still need to post :V) and someone's Genesect team. If they were scarfed Genesect they probably would have won, but I think they were Shift Gear.
Mega Salamence (me) v Genesect: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-320746150
EDIT: I want to point out I made a lot of predictions that match, so that's why some of my plays make no sense (eg. why I Focus Blasted MBeedrill with Thundurus instead of just TWaving like I probably should have in hindsight)
I got a few other good ones but I didn't save them. I have a close one where I found +1 Jolly Max Speed 'mence outspeeds Mega Swampert in rain, but I didn't play THE best. Rain teams are threatening lol
Mega Salamence (me) v Genesect: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-320746150
EDIT: I want to point out I made a lot of predictions that match, so that's why some of my plays make no sense (eg. why I Focus Blasted MBeedrill with Thundurus instead of just TWaving like I probably should have in hindsight)
I got a few other good ones but I didn't save them. I have a close one where I found +1 Jolly Max Speed 'mence outspeeds Mega Swampert in rain, but I didn't play THE best. Rain teams are threatening lol
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Surprised nobody has pointed this out already, but the main post mentions, under the Sweeper Gods strategy section, GeoXern, which is banned as of the banning of Geomancy. I guess Rayquaza or Mega Salamence could be put in it's place, because they're both terrifying setup sweepers, MegaMence especially because it's easy for it to set up on just about any physical Pokemon that isn't part ice once it's checks are gone. Just figured I'd mention it :)
EDIT: Fixed now!
EDIT: Fixed now!
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Mq
It's Megaqwer's Time!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-salamence-balance-team.3562680/#post-6635284 check it out!RMT of g&F :)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-322431187
A fight vs. Megaqwer's psychic team, I completely forget about EQ and decide to CM in the end; Also I forget the key Poison/Dark Type :[
EDIT: I also get outscarf'ed by gardevoir :/
TS:DR; I'm Bad.
A fight vs. Megaqwer's psychic team, I completely forget about EQ and decide to CM in the end; Also I forget the key Poison/Dark Type :[
EDIT: I also get outscarf'ed by gardevoir :/
TS:DR; I'm Bad.