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Gen 2 Going Back In Time(RMT)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by IntoTheRain, Oct 6, 2007.

  1. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    Milling around with one of my Advanced teams the other day, I noticed it would fit nicely as a G/S/C team with a few alterations. Its my first attempt at a G/S/C team in a long while, so I'm sure I missed some things.

    Umbreon:leftovers
    -mean look
    -baton pass
    -moonlight
    -toxic

    With far less frequent substitute leads in G/S/C, Mean Look Umbie makes a solid lead that allows for easy set ups. Its also excellent at making a hole for a sweeper to exploit later in the game.

    Gengar:miracle berry
    -hypnosis
    -explosion
    -thunderbolt
    -ice punch

    Can sweep decently if the Snorelax/Blissey/Hypno is out of the way, but more than likely will be exploding on something annoying after putting something else to sleep.

    Starmie:miracle berry
    -surf
    -psychic
    -recover
    -reflect

    In Advance, Starmie had the most sweeps of anything on my team. This version is much more defensive, but keeps its high damage output. (albeit without its great surf/ice beam/thunderbolt coverage)

    Charizard:leftovers
    -belly drum
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -flamethrower

    Requires a bit more setup than Tentacruel, but I think its worth it. Especially since both Umbreon and Gengar are optimized to pick out and remove certain threats. He plays differently without access to salac, so I'm still getting my bearings when using him, but as soon as you clean out their counter he tends to sweep.

    Rhydon:quick claw
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -rest
    -roar

    Power, toughness, and horrible typing all rolled into one neat package. Replaced Skarmory and is my primary answer to other Snorelax.

    Snorelax:leftovers
    -body slam
    -earthquake
    -curse
    -rest

    I always loved Snorelax, but its a bit depressing to see it on every team in G/S/C. (Blissey is WAY underrated in this format) Very dangerous when it finally starts cursing on turn 20 or so.

    Notes:
    -No Rapid Spinner: spikes get a fairly significant downgrade in G/S/C, enough so that I'm not sure i see the point in having one seeing as how every Pokemon that is affected by spikes but gengar (who explodes) has a healing move.
    -3 Fighting weaknesses along with 2 resistances and an immunity. Extremely double edged. I still manage to get pounded by Machamps fairly commonly though.
    -vs Jolt/Wak:If I see a Jolteon lead I immediately go to the Snorelax and Body Slam off the Substitute. If he Agilities instead you are in great shape.
    -vs. Stall: My primary goal is to set the Charizard up. Keep track of their counters, and clean them out with Umbreon/Gengar. If that fails your pretty much forced to let your team die out and set up your Snorelax.

    Rate.
  2. Ace777

    Ace777

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    Well, since you're not using Starmie as a spinner might as well use a Slowbro with Thunder Wave over it. It'll increase the chance of Charizard getting a Belly Drum. You're also lacking something that can absorb sleep so consider using a Sleep Talk Snorlax or even a Sleep Talk, Rest, Surf, Thunder Wave Slowbro or just use Blissey over Snorlax to help with that problem, but you'll lose some offense.
  3. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    Updated:

    Umbreon:leftovers
    -mean look
    -baton pass
    -moonlight
    -toxic

    Gengar:miracle berry
    -hypnosis
    -explosion
    -thunderbolt
    -ice punch

    Starmie:miracle berry
    -surf
    -psychic
    -recover
    -rapid spin

    Charizard:leftovers
    -belly drum
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -fire blast

    Rhydon:leftovers
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -curse
    -roar

    Snorelax:leftovers
    -body slam
    -earthquake
    -curse
    -rest

    Notes:
    -I'm personally not a fan of the Charm set
    -Miracle Berry seems better than Leftovers on Starmie to me. It relies to heavily on its speed to risk a paralysis. (I miss natural cure)
    -Rhydon without Rest makes me feel vunerable to Snorelax, but I will try it
    -Good catch on the flamethrower/fire blast, I forgot about no blaze.
  4. Borat

    Borat

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    Milling around with one of my Advanced teams the other day, I noticed it would fit nicely as a G/S/C team with a few alterations. Its my first attempt at a G/S/C team in a long while, so I'm sure I missed some things.
    Umbreon:leftovers
    -mean look
    -baton pass
    -moonlight
    -toxic
    With far less frequent substitute leads in G/S/C, Mean Look Umbie makes a solid lead that allows for easy set ups. Its also excellent at making a hole for a sweeper to exploit later in the game.
    Only when Skarm becomes NU and phazers disappear from the metagame.
    Gengar:miracle berry
    -hypnosis
    -explosion
    -thunderbolt
    -ice punch
    Can sweep decently if the Snorelax/Blissey/Hypno is out of the way, but more than likely will be exploding on something annoying after putting something else to sleep.
    Any "sweeper" that relies on Snorlax being dead isn't a sweeper at all. What's with not using Leftovers? This IS Pokemon, afterall.
    Starmie:miracle berry
    -surf
    -psychic
    -recover
    -reflect
    In Advance, Starmie had the most sweeps of anything on my team. This version is much more defensive, but keeps its high damage output. (albeit without its great surf/ice beam/thunderbolt coverage)
    See Gengar.
    Charizard:leftovers
    -belly drum
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -flamethrower
    Requires a bit more setup than Tentacruel, but I think its worth it. Especially since both Umbreon and Gengar are optimized to pick out and remove certain threats. He plays differently without access to salac, so I'm still getting my bearings when using him, but as soon as you clean out their counter he tends to sweep.
    Fire Blast. Requires less "setup" than Tentacruel mind you.

    Rhydon:quick claw
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -rest
    -roar
    Power, toughness, and horrible typing all rolled into one neat package. Replaced Skarmory and is my primary answer to other Snorelax.
    See Leftovers comment above. And this doesn't answer Snorlax at all.
    Snorelax:leftovers
    -body slam
    -earthquake
    -curse
    -rest
    I always loved Snorelax, but its a bit depressing to see it on every team in G/S/C. (Blissey is WAY underrated in this format) Very dangerous when it finally starts cursing on turn 20 or so.
    Cursing set is easy to counter and will be countered. Won't work against anyone above double-digit IQs.
    Notes:
    -No Rapid Spinner: spikes get a fairly significant downgrade in G/S/C, enough so that I'm not sure i see the point in having one seeing as how every Pokemon that is affected by spikes but gengar (who explodes) has a healing move.
    You are very wrong.
    -3 Fighting weaknesses along with 2 resistances and an immunity. Extremely double edged. I still manage to get pounded by Machamps fairly commonly though.
    There is no way to avoid Fighting weakness. Both normal resistances are completely useless, as they are weak to EQ, which is the other half to most normal move users.
    -vs Jolt/Wak:If I see a Jolteon lead I immediately go to the Snorelax and Body Slam off the Substitute. If he Agilities instead you are in great shape.
    Not like you have a choice.
    -vs. Stall: My primary goal is to set the Charizard up. Keep track of their counters, and clean them out with Umbreon/Gengar. If that fails your pretty much forced to let your team die out and set up your Snorelax.
    You have no answer to Curselax.
    Rate.
    Poor synergy overall; I seems like you're throwing random sweepers and hoping that one of them would get through. Also, many holes on the defensive side. The selected Pokemon don't complement one another at all, nor do the movesets. Also, it just looks like a bad rip off my old Drumzard team.

    Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
    - Clamp
    - Explosion
    - Screech
    - Spikes
    Starmie bait (Clamp gg). Beats curselax.
    Rhydon (M) @ Leftovers
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Substitute
    - Zap Cannon
    Suicune bait (2 hits puts it in KO range). Backup Starmie bait. (Paralyzed Starmie loses to Drumzard)
    Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Thunder Wave
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder
    Raikou bait (Paralyzed Raikou loses). Backup sweeper. (Had Umbreon here earlier as a Gengar counter/back-back up Starmie bait, 'til I realized playing pussy is not the way to go.)
    Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
    - Double-Edge
    - Fire Blast
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Selfdestruct
    Tends to sleep something useful; blows up on something useful. 2 for 1 is cool.
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    - Drill Peck
    - Reflect
    - Thunder
    - Thunder Wave
    Backup Raikou bait (Paralyzed Raikou loses). P-passer to help setup (Let's Charizard setup on every non-RS physical attacker without worry).
    Charizard (M) @ Leftovers
    - Belly Drum
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Rock Slide
    GG.
    Team effectively baits out 3/4 Drumzard counters. Beats the 4th -- Gengar -- with prediction.
  5. Ace777

    Ace777

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    Wow, It's Borat!

    The rare Surf Tyranitar might also cause problems (Yes, I know most teams have trouble countering Tyranitar but I had to do it ~_~) Meh I don't see the point in using Thunder Wave when you're using Thunder on Zapdos, Light Screen might help with the "Gengar problem", but meh.
  6. Borat

    Borat

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    Apr 14, 2007
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    I don't see how Tyranitar is really a problem, seeing as it doesn't stop Charizard once it gets rolling, and that's the whole point of the team.

    In addition, unless they know my team, it really has a hard time switching in. No one in their right mind would switch into Cloyster, Rhydon, Dragonite, or Snorlax and surprisingly, Reflect Zapdos has a good chance of beating it head on.

    Thunder is never a reliable way to paralyze (~1/5 mind you, and with my luck); hence, 2 Twaves and a Zap Cannon.
  7. Ace777

    Ace777

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    Well, I was just pointing out you have a hard time switching in on it. Tyranitar Rock Slides Cloyster, Dragonite, Snorlax, Charizard, and Zapdos while it Surfs Rhydon.
    Well, actually I see people switch Tyranitar on Snorlax with or without Earthquake. Switching on a Dragonite might be risky but it's a 50/50 chance. Feeling Lucky? But, yes Tyranitar might have a hard time switching on your team.
    Well, I'd rather set up a Light Screen or even use the bog boring Sleep Talk set, which is something your team needs.
  8. Borat

    Borat

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    Well every non-Suicune team does.

    Well if it switches on, it gets slept. I'm fully willing to waste sleep clause on him.

    If I don't win by turn 50 or so, I've lost; ST doesn't take shine in quick games. Light Screen is nice, but I can only choose one. If I use both, one becomes a dead slot half the time. It's mainly used as an "it's Zapdos' last turn alive" move. I generally setup Charizard after something dies (which is essentially, a 100% accurate prediction). ie. Charizard comes in on say.. Snorlax who just killed Zapdos as Zapdos drops a Reflect. Now Snorlax has two options: switch and deal 0 damage as Charizard drums; or attack at 5hko damage values; lose-lose situation and unable to prevent drum. Also, GSC is much more physical oriented than special, so Reflect benefits more overall. Most true sweepers (Snorlax) are physical afterall.
  9. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    Back to the team that actually needs help please.

    -why are you down on my sweepers, :( I'm lost as to how how the fact that every team has a special wall means my Starmie isn't playable.
    -criticism is great, but if your not going to suggest possible changes your not doing me any good.
    -please go into more detail about why the choices are not synergistic.

    and just out of curiosity, how do you shut down Charizard's counter(s) if they have something with heal bell?
  10. Borat

    Borat

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    -why are you down on my sweepers, :( I'm lost as to how how the fact that every team has a special wall means my Starmie isn't playable.

    Welcome to GSC.

    -criticism is great, but if your not going to suggest possible changes your not doing me any good.

    But you're not giving me anything to work with.

    -please go into more detail about why the choices are not synergistic.

    Using this team, can you explain exactly how you plan to win with it? Because unless you can do that, then the team won't win unless you are either more skilled or luckier.

    and just out of curiosity, how do you shut down Charizard's counter(s) if they have something with heal bell?

    Get setup before they have a chance to react. My team, by no means, is easy to play. It has many defensive holes that enemies can take advantage of, but it's generally faster than most teams, which gives it the advantage. This also reminds me of Snorlax's true purpose on the team: to sleep/explode Miltank.
  11. Borat

    Borat

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    Also, on-topic regarding Thunder's paralysis:

    You have to note that while paralysis is 1/5 chance, in reality, it'll take a lot longer than a mere 5 turns to paralyze Raikou. Assuming you're attempting to paralyze it on the switch: if you fail, you'll probably switch out to say, Rhydon. You'll have to make an entire switching circle to bring back the same scenario: with Zapdos active and making Raikou switch in again. This switching circle might take 3-5 turns to pull off, which means it'll take 25 turns to paralyze Raikou. The same concept applies with Heracross-Skarmory.
  12. Ace777

    Ace777

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    Or Sleep Talk Machamp.
    Or it could C. para you Charizard with your luck ;x.
    Eh, I thought Dragonite could do the samething to Raikou, Since Raikou is the BEST counter to it.
  13. Borat

    Borat

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    Maybe.

    Maybe.

    Dragonite is the main Raikou bait, but nothing is fool-proof. Zapdos can also deal with stray Jolteons and stuff. Dragonite and Zapdos both function as Zapdos baits as well, as I'd want to eliminate as many 50-50 crapshoots as possible. Snorlax is also a prime switch-in to Zapdos, which makes Reflect that much more appealing.
  14. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    Since there is a severe lack of decent stat ups in GSC, and I didn't want to stall, I figured the only way I could play aggressively is by trying to pick of a key defensive part of their team and then bringing in something fast and powerful to clean them out.
    Umbreon and Gengar are mostly there to find and remove their best counters my big hitters. Sure Umbreon will never get Skarmory, but its quite possible to get their Bulky Water/Non phasing wall. (as they tend to do a variety of functions other than just wall) Gengar was meant to be used much like your Snorelax, it puts something to sleep then blows something else up. It usually only fires off a few bolt/beams per match.
    Yes Rhydon does seem less and less like a solid answer to Snorelax. I think my original thinking at the time was that I don't need to actually beat Snorelax, as much as I do need to prevent it from setting up on me before I set up Charizard. And Snorelax is the standard special wall/last resort that is oh so common.
    Charizard and Starmie are of course the primary beaters.
  15. Borat

    Borat

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    Since there is a severe lack of decent stat ups in GSC, and I didn't want to stall, I figured the only way I could play aggressively is by trying to pick of a key defensive part of their team and then bringing in something fast and powerful to clean them out.

    True, which is why most turn to stall. Your team doesn't accomplish that though; I don't see where exactly in their defense you're trying to pick at.

    Umbreon and Gengar are mostly there to find and remove their best counters my big hitters. Sure Umbreon will never get Skarmory, but its quite possible to get their Bulky Water/Non phasing wall. (as they tend to do a variety of functions other than just wall)

    If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. A team should never have to rely on the other's stupidity to win.

    Gengar was meant to be used much like your Snorelax, it puts something to sleep then blows something else up. It usually only fires off a few bolt/beams per match.

    Gengar would most likely sleep and blow up Raikou/Zapdos. That benefits Charizard a great deal. I firmly believe that apart from Snorlax, Gengar is the best pokemon in GSC. Mostly for its unpredictability. I agree with this pokemon, just not his items, remember?

    Yes Rhydon does seem less and less like a solid answer to Snorelax. I think my original thinking at the time was that I don't need to actually beat Snorelax, as much as I do need to prevent it from setting up on me before I set up Charizard.

    So if you can't justify why you're using Rhydon, why use it?

    And Snorelax is the standard special wall/last resort that is oh so common.

    But your set doesn't benefit anyone else on the team. It's a set that works independently from everyone else.

    Charizard and Starmie are of course the primary beaters.

    Starmie will never be a sweeper in GSC.
  16. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    -I suppose I can try the toxic/charm/pursuit/rest set if the mean look set bothers you that much.

    -Why can't Starmie sweep. :( I won off this thing all the time in Advanced. (yes after the special wall was out of the way - but isn't that the entire idea I'm trying for here?)

    -I like the miracle berry on Gengar because its pretty much dead without its speed. (ditto on Starmie) Besides which he is going to blow up on something anyway.

    -I was conceding the point on Rhydon. (I am open to suggestions)

    -If not Snorelax then what?
  17. Borat

    Borat

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    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the set should benefit the team as a whole. What does that set accomplish?

    If Snorlax is the part of their defense you're clawing at, you can forget it. Chances are, they'll sacrifice all 5 of their pokemon before giving up Snorlax.

    Thunder Wave is a near dead move; in those rare instances where it's ran, you have no business switching into Zapdos/Starmie. You won't switch in on Thunders with that Sp Def and you are immune to Body Slam. What are you worried about?

    Figure what's lacking offensively. You don't necessarily have to take out Rhydon, just find a different niche for him to occupy.

    Didn't say remove Snorlax, I said change the set. You can't play competitively without Snorlax.
  18. Ace777

    Ace777

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    You'll have a hard time doing that, since, Raikou, Blissey, Snorlax, Zapdos, and Charm Umbreon are pretty common, heck some hard-core stall team uses 2-3 of the mentioned pokemon.
    You don't have to lose Rhydon, Look at Borat's Rhydon, It helps the team as a whole when using it. Yet I don't see the point in Substitute on Rhydon, Why not use Roar?
    Celia and his stall team would like to have a word with you.
  19. Borat

    Borat

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    Substitute to ease prediction.

    Celia's team would be better if he/she included Snorlax.
  20. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    School has kept me very busy, but I managed to find time to sneak in this update.

    Gengar:leftovers
    -hypnosis
    -explosion
    -thunderbolt
    -ice punch

    Changed lead, and primary early offense.

    Umbreon:leftovers
    -pursuit
    -mean look
    -toxic
    -rest

    mean look over charm for 2 reasons. 1) After a few pursuits, someone is going to try and leave something in and beat you down, this surprises and beats anyone trying that. 2) You can't kill Recover Stormie otherwise.

    Rhydon:leftovers
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -zap cannon
    -curse

    zap cannon hits most of its counters hard, or at the very least paralyzes them on a team that is light on status effects.

    Starmie:leftovers
    -surf
    -ice beam
    -thunderbolt
    -recover

    Exeggutor:leftovers
    -psychic
    -explosion
    -leech seed
    -substitute

    The new guy, currently replacing Snorelax. Gives the team another exploder and works decently as a backup s. sweeper.

    Charizard:leftovers
    -belly drum
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -fire blast

    Cleans House.


    Notes:
    -To be fair, this team was never meant to be centered on Bellyizard, but it has definitely become more focused on setting him up. Rhydon and Umbreon take out bulky waters and past psychics/gengar respectively, and Starmie will whittle down the electrics fairly quickly with some hit and run.
    -Spikes are looking very attractive on this team with a ghost, subseeder, pursuiter, and belly drummer. The problem with that is that most of the spikers in GSC are hideously defensive and can only be offensive via explosion. (although having that many exploders does have a certain appeal to it.)
  21. Borat

    Borat

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    Gengar:leftovers
    -hypnosis
    -explosion
    -thunderbolt
    -ice punch

    Boltbeam variation is completely cookie-cutter and ineffective. Make use of moves that reward greatly for prediction (Destiny Bond/Counter).


    Umbreon:leftovers
    -pursuit
    -mean look
    -toxic
    -rest

    No. Horrible reasoning. IF you attempt it, you'll be in for a surprise as you soon realize Pursuit never kills. But if you must, BP > Toxic.

    Rhydon:leftovers
    -rock slide
    -earthquake
    -zap cannon
    -curse

    Curse serves what purpose?

    Starmie:leftovers
    -surf
    -ice beam
    -thunderbolt
    -recover
    What's this suppose to do?

    Exeggutor:leftovers
    -psychic
    -explosion
    -leech seed
    -substitute

    Right, you're totally gonna sweep with all of your 1 attack moves. Any reason to forego Sleep Powder? Any reason to use Substitute?

    To be fair, the two spikers used in GSC have some of the highest defenses.
  22. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    I honestly have no idea why you despise standards so much, people use them because they are almost always the most effective way to utilize a certain Pokemon. (and suprise will only carry you so far):pirate:

    -How is bolt/beam ineffective..the only counter they have is going to be their Snorelax/Blissey, which I will gladly sleep/explode on. Full type coverage can never be ineffective, even if it is predictable.

    -I honestly don't see how counter/destiny bond is stronger than hypnosis/explosion. Your suggesting I change highly proactive moves out for 100% reactive ones. I don't see how you would utilize them, counter what? No one is going to leave their physical hitter in if you bring in a Gengar, they will suspect you carry a SE move. Destiny Bond is the same way, what is it going to do that Explosion can't? In fact, its more limited than explosion since you can't kill anything that can't (or won't) immediately kill you. (like Blissey) Its also far more risky, since if they opt to do a stat up instead, your discovered and can no longer pull the move off well.

    -I don't really care if pursuit kills them, I just want to weaken them enough so that they cannot come in on Charizard or Starmie.

    -I never meant Exeggutor to be a sweeper, I just meant it hits hard enough to do solid damage. No sleep powder because Gengar already has Hypnosis. Sub because I don't see a better option, and because subseed beats most Snorelax.

    -I know they have great defense, I just with their was one that had an even respectable attack.
  23. Karrot

    Karrot plant
    is a Past WCoP Winner

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    Either you worded your sentence badly, or you're implying Pursuit is physical...
    It's special.



    Both Cloyster and Forretress have respectable attack that make for powerful explosions, while Cloyster also has the joy of utilizing a nicely average special stat for its Surfs/Ice Beams to run off of.
  24. IntoTheRain

    IntoTheRain

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    ya I realized that around 5 minutes ago and fixed it. Getting my generations confused. :(

    The biggest problem with Cloyster is that I already have an extremely heavily biased S. Offense.
  25. Borat

    Borat

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    Bolt/beam is ineffective for the reason that it's standard and expected; and Gengar doesn't get STAB on either. Raikou, Heracross, Forretress, etc, quite a few things can wall you.

    Counter/Destiny Bond are both BETTER alternatives to BOLTBEAM -- please don't twist my words around. I don't know who you're playing, but many would gladly start throwing EQs at Gengar. I'd love to see you try to Explode on Steelix/Cursed up Snorlaxes.

    Pursuit won't weaken those that switch in on Charizard/Starmie, sorry.

    Yes, you did intend on it being a sweeper, until I told you otherwise. Denial never gets you anywhere. Psychic is one typing, and a bad one at that. Gengar having Hypnosis is weak justification for ditching SP; they can sleep different things. There are a ton of options, be it Reflect, Stun Spore, Synthesis, Giga Drain, HP Fire, and so forth. Try to think a bit more.

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