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Goldeen (BW2 Revamp) [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Woodchuck, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    QC: 3/3
    GP: 2/2
    [​IMG]
    Goldeen

    [Overview]

    <p>Little Cup has its share of first-stage Water-type Pokemon, and at first glance, Goldeen seems to be just another run-of-the-mill Swift Swimmer in a metagame where Rain Dance teams are less than viable. However, thanks to its unique ability, Lightningrod, Goldeen can serve as a solid counter to many Pokemon like Chinchou, Magnemite, and Ponyta that rely on Electric-type attacks to hit Water-types. Goldeen also benefits from good Attack and Speed as well as a solid movepool that includes Megahorn to hit Grass-types and Knock Off to support its team by removing opponents' Eviolites. Although Goldeen seems to be overshadowed by Chinchou as a Water-type immune to Electric-type attacks, Goldeen's greater hitting power, ability to heavily damage Grass-types, and access to Knock Off can give it an edge. Overall, Goldeen's combination of ability, typing, stats, and movepool allow it to have a niche in Little Cup even when Swift Swim is not a viable strategy.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Attacker
    move 1: Aqua Tail
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Drill Run
    move 4: Knock Off
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Lightningrod
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 76 HP / 220 Atk / 36 Def / 172 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Goldeen can make use of its good Attack, Speed, and usable bulk combined with Lightningrod to serve as a niche counter to some Pokemon while still being able to deal significant damage to the opposing team. Being a Water-type with an immunity to Electric-type attacks, Goldeen hard counters most Magnemite, Chinchou, and Return-less Ponyta, and is bulky enough to take a hit from most other physical attackers and respond with an attacking move or Knock Off. Aqua Tail is a strong physical STAB that can hit hard thanks to Goldeen's good base 67 Attack; it is used over Waterfall because its extra power gets some important OHKOs and 2HKOs against Pokemon such as Scraggy and Murkrow. However, if you can provide enough entry hazard support and residual damage, Waterfall is a slightly more reliable option. Megahorn complements Aqua Tail well and allows Goldeen to hit Grass-types for heavy damage, OHKOing Snover and 2HKOing Lileep. Drill Run is the best coverage move for Goldeen, hitting the Pokemon Goldeen hard counters, such as Chinchou and Magnemite, super effectively. Knock Off allows Goldeen to provide valuable utility for its team in removing the Eviolites of bulky switch-ins. As Goldeen tends to lure different Pokemon in than Mienfoo&mdash;specifically Grass-types such as Ferroseed or Lileep&mdash;it can provide support to Pokemon that Mienfoo is less adept at helping. For example, by luring in Ferroseed, Lileep, Snover, and Porygon (Pokemon that would never switch into Mienfoo) and removing their Eviolites, Goldeen can weaken many of Murkrow's checks and allow it to clean up the opposing team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Goldeen works well with teammates that appreciate its ability to make Magnemite and offensive Chinchou near-useless. Murkrow appreciates Goldeen's ability to shut down some of its checks and soften others with Knock Off; in return, Murkrow can switch into Grass-type attacks and use priority Sucker Punch to check Pokemon that set up on Goldeen. As Goldeen is excellent at luring in Grass-types such as Lileep and Foongus and removing their Eviolites with Knock Off, Pokemon that can break through Lileep and Foongus with this help make for excellent teammates. Tirtouga benefits from Goldeen's ability to switch into Chinchou, and after Goldeen has used Knock Off to remove Lileep and Foongus's Eviolites, Tirtouga can OHKO both Grass-types after a Shell Smash. Goldeen can help Tirtouga further by luring and 2HKOing Croagunk with Drill Run.</p>

    <p>Although Goldeen can OHKO Snover with Megahorn on the switch (or use Knock Off to remove its Choice Scarf or Eviolite and proceed to outspeed and OHKO with Megahorn), it is still vulnerable to being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Snover and thus appreciates teammates such as Murkrow and Ponyta that can switch into Grass-type attacks. Frillish and Mantyke hard-wall Goldeen, although they don't appreciate Knock Off; carrying a Lileep or even a Magnemite or Chinchou of your own can help deal with them. Goldeen cannot effectively stop setup sweepers such as Scraggy or Axew. Riolu counters Scraggy, and can use Protect and Copycat to revenge kill Axew with its own Outrage. In order to get a lot of OHKOes and 2HKOes, Goldeen needs entry hazard support and residual damage. Ferroseed can provide Stealth Rock and/or Spikes, Snover can provide hail residual damage and check Drilbur, and Hippopotas can provide both Stealth Rock and sandstorm for residual damage&mdash;although Sandstorm teams may not appreciate stacking up on weaknesses to Grass-type moves with Goldeen.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although a Rain Dance Life Orb Swift Swim set seems like a possibility for Goldeen to sweep, Swift Swim simply isn't good in this metagame with the high usage of Snover and Hippopotas, and there are better Swift Swim sweepers than Goldeen anyway. Goldeen has a decent special movepool, but it has terrible Special Attack. Toxic, Aqua Ring, and Protect are other support options, but Goldeen isn't bulky enough to stay in for that many turns. A defensive set with Scald, Toxic, and Knock Off can be used, but Goldeen's Special Attack is abysmal, leaving Goldeen highly open to being setup sweepers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Foongus isn't 2HKOed by anything Goldeen can do, and it can Spore or Giga Drain in return. Snover can revenge kill Goldeen with Giga Drain, but it needs a Choice Scarf to avoid getting outsped and OHKOed by Megahorn. Frillish takes next to no damage from any of Goldeen's attacks, burns Goldeen with Will-O-Wisp, and Recovers off any damage taken, although Goldeen can at least use Knock Off to remove its Eviolite. Ferroseed takes any of Goldeen's attacks and hits back with Bullet Seed or sets up entry hazards. Croagunk can switch into most of Goldeen's attacks, but it is 2HKOed by Drill Run. In the end, Goldeen is neither especially powerful nor especially bulky, so Pokemon with decent physical bulk will probably be able to take its hits and 2HKO back&mdash;although Goldeen will remove their Eviolites with Knock Off in the process.</p>

    skeleton
  2. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    This is now ready for QC checks. I am open to suggestions for a better set title, and I think this set is probably better than the Rain Dance sweeper and deserves to be first in the analysis simply because it's not useless against teams with Scarf Snover and it has a niche in hard countering certain Pokemon and removing Eviolites with Knock Off. If need be I can revamp the Overview to reflect this (or maybe turn this into a full revamp? Let's see what QC thinks...).

    e: I should do a full revamp; Goldeen's last analysis was written in July of 2011.
  3. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Swift Swim sounds dumb in this meta, especially for someone who isn't that good at it like Goldeen. Scrap that for OO.

    Slash Jolly with the first set's nature. Jolly guarantees it outruns Scraggy which is always significant, but the loss in power makes that a second priority.

    I am not approving this until OO and Checks / Counters is made, but the first set looks great.
  4. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Scraggy is probably setting up on you anyway, but all of that is done.
  5. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
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    Alright, this looks good. I'd completely replace Waterfall with Aqua Tail, which nabs a lot of crucial OHKO's and 2HKO's, such as against Scraggy and Murkrow. Waterfall is reliable but it misses out on those KOs. I'd put Waterfall in AC and then explain how its slightly superior accuracy might be more pleasing to some.

    In AC, mention how Goldeen likes Hippo and Snover support for providing residual damage- as some residual damage also brings a lot of things in vital KO ranges. Also mention hazard layers, such as Ferroseed, who can tackle Frillish and Mantyke. Hazards also knock things into vital KO range, and let Jolly Goldeen OHKO LO Murkrow.

    Mention a bulky attacker set with Scald and Toxic and Knock Off in OO. Lightningrod makes Goldeen really hard to take down, since it's only hit super effectively by Grass.

    Do all of that and this is

    [​IMG]
    QC Approved: 1/3
  6. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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  7. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Can we just call the first set Bulky Attacker or something, Eviolite Lightningrod sounds dumb.

    [qc]2/2[/qc]
  8. Scron

    Scron

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    Excellent job on the skeleton. I would suggest putting Featherdance Natu in the C & C paragraph since it can wall Goldeen pretty well with higher speed, feather dance, eviolite, and roost. Gastly might also be worth putting in since it can learn Giga Drain. Lileep also might be worth putting in since it walls Goldeen. Good luck on the analysis.
  9. mikel

    mikel @ air baloon
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    featherdance natu can check goldeen only once since once its eviolite is knocked off, aqua tail + megahorn on the roost is an easy 2HKO. lileep is 2HKOed by megahorn 96% or so of the time so it's a pretty sketchy check. gastly is a fairly miserable check since it can't switch in at all and it's destroyed by aqua tail if it doesn't KO goldeen.
  10. Scron

    Scron

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    I went ahead and did some calculations on the matter. Gastly will not one hit KO Goldeen unless it is holding choice specs. Gastly should not switch directly into Goldeen, but might deserve some recognition since it would be unexpected. Natu can wall Goldeen by using Featherdance twice and then using roost for recovery if Goldeen doesn't use Knock Off, but it is not a reliable counter. Lileep should be thrown out as a counter as well. Sorry for the confusion.
  11. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    These Pokemon are pretty pointless to mention as none of them should be switching into Goldeen often; there are enough Pokemon that outspeed Goldeen and 2HKO or 3HKO it that it's not worth mentioning random Pokemon like Gastly when it's not really any more special than any other fast offensive 'mon (and Gastly is OHKOed by Aqua Tail after rocks lol)
  12. tehy

    tehy

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    So just reading through this, i wish there was a part where you specifically explain why to use this over chinchou (I see them, but just saying), you don't even address it and it seems like it competes with Goldeen pretty well as an electric-absorbing water-type.
  13. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Thanks for mentioning that, Tehy, I included Goldeen's advantages over Chinchou in the Overview.
    Anyway, this is written. I can't change the title, but whatever...
  14. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    ya this looks good. if anything you can talk about set up sweepers like scraggy in the checks and counters section because it effectively beats what goldeen is doing

    other than that qc whatever/3 lol
  15. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    This is now ready for GP checks. (if a C&C mod could change the title to reflect that it would be great)
  16. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

    [Overview]
    <p>Little Cup has its share of first-stage Water-type Pokemon, and at first glance Goldeen seems to be just another run-of-the-mill Swift Swimmer in a metagame where Rain Dance teams are less than viable. However, thanks to its unique access to Lightningrod, Goldeen can serve as a solid counter to many Pokemon like Chinchou, Magnemite, and Ponyta that rely on Electric-type attacks to hit Water-types. Goldeen also benefits from good Attack and Speed and a solid movepool, (AC) including Megahorn to hit Grass-types and Knock Off to support its team by removing opponents' Eviolites. Although Goldeen seems to be overshadowed by Chinchou at first as a Water-type immune to Electric-type attacks, Goldeen's greater hitting power, ability to heavily damage Grass-types, (AC) and access to Knock Off can give it an edge. Overall, Goldeen's combination of ability, typing, stats, and movepool allow it to have a niche in Little Cup even when Swift Swim is not a viable strategy.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Attacker
    move 1: Aqua Tail
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Drill Run
    move 4: Knock Off
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Lightningrod
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 76 HP / 220 Atk / 36 Def / 172 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Goldeen can make use of its good Attack and Speed and usable bulk combined with Lightningrod to serve as a niche counter to some Pokemon that can still deal significant damage to the opposing team. Being a Water-type with an immunity to Electric-type attacks, Goldeen hard counters most Magnemite, Chinchou, and Return-less Ponyta, and is bulky enough to take a hit from most other physical attackers and respond with an attacking move or Knock Off. Aqua Tail is a strong physical STAB that can hit hard thanks to Goldeen's good base 67 Attack; it is used over Waterfall because its extra power gets some important OHKOs and 2HKOs against Pokemon such as Scraggy and Murkrow. However, if you can provide enough entry hazards support and residual damage, Waterfall is a slightly more reliable option. Megahorn complements Aqua Tail well and allows Goldeen to hit Grass-types for heavy damage, OHKOing Snover and 2HKOing Lileep. Drill Run is the best coverage move for Goldeen, hitting the Pokemon Goldeen hard counters like Chinchou and Magnemite super effectively. Knock Off allows Goldeen to provide valuable utility for its team in removing the Eviolites of bulky switch-ins. As Goldeen tends to lure different Pokemon in than Mienfoo&mdash;specifically Grass-types like Ferroseed or Lileep&mdash;it can provide support to Pokemon that Mienfoo is less adept at helping. For example, by luring in Ferroseed, Lileep, Snover, and Porygon (Pokemon that would never switch into Mienfoo) and removing their Eviolites, Goldeen can weaken many of Murkrow's checks and allow it to clean up the opposing team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>Goldeen works well with teammates that appreciate its ability to make Magnemite and offensive Chinchou near-useless while Goldeen is in the battle. Murkrow appreciates Goldeen's ability to shut down some of its checks and soften others with Knock Off; Murkrow can in return switch into Grass-type attacks and use priority Sucker Punch to check Pokemon that would set up on Goldeen. As Goldeen is excellent at luring in Grass-types like Lileep and Foongus and removing their Eviolites with Knock Off, Pokemon that can break through Lileep and Foongus with this help make for excellent teammates. Tirtouga likes having a partner that can switch into Chinchou and can OHKO Eviolite-less Lileep and Foongus after a Shell Smash, and Goldeen can help Tirtouga further by luring and 2HKOing Croagunk with Drill Run.</p>

    <p>Although Goldeen can OHKO Snover with Megahorn on the switch (or use Knock Off to remove its Choice Scarf or Eviolite and proceed to outspeed and OHKO with Megahorn), Goldeen is still vulnerable to being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Snover and thus appreciates teammates like Murkrow and Ponyta that can switch into Grass-type attacks. Frillish and Mantyke hard-wall Goldeen, although they don't appreciate Knock Off; carrying a Lileep or even a Magnemite or Chinchou of your own can help deal with them. Goldeen cannot effectively stop setup sweepers such as Scraggy or Axew. Riolu counters Scraggy, and can use Protect and Copycat to revenge kill Axew with its own Outrage. In order to get a lot of OHKOes and 2HKOes, Goldeen needs entry hazards support and residual damage. Ferroseed can provide Stealth Rock and/or Spikes, Snover can provide Hail residual damage and check Drilbur, and Hippopotas can provide both Stealth Rock and Sandstorm for residual damage&mdash;although Sandstorm teams may not appreciate stacking up on weaknesses to Grass-type moves with Goldeen.</p>

    [Other Options]
    <p>Although a Rain Dance Life Orb Swift Swim set seems like a possibility for Goldeen to sweep, Swift Swim simply isn't good in this metagame with the high usage of Snover and Hippopotas, and there are better Swift Swim sweepers than Goldeen anyway. Goldeen has a decent special movepool, but it has terrible Special Attack. Toxic, Aqua Ring, and Protect are other support options, but Goldeen isn't bulky enough to stay in for that many turns. A defensive set with Scald, Toxic, and Knock Off can be used, but Goldeen's Special Attack is abysmal and the set would be even greater setup fodder.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]
    <p>Foongus isn't 2HKOed by anything Goldeen can do, and it can Spore or Giga Drain in return. Snover can revenge kill Goldeen with Giga Drain, but it needs a Choice Scarf to avoid getting outsped and OHKOed by Megahorn. Frillish takes next to no damage from any of Goldeen's attacks, burns Goldeen with Will-O-Wisp, and Recovers off any damage, although Goldeen can at least use Knock Off to remove its Eviolite. Ferroseed takes any of Goldeen's attacks and hits back with Bullet Seed or sets up entry hazards. Croagunk can switch into most of Goldeen's attacks, but it is 2HKOed by Drill Run. Goldeen's only decent Attack leaves it open to setup sweepers like Scraggy, although Scraggy risks being 2HKOed by Aqua Tail. In the end, Goldeen is neither especially powerful nor especially bulky, so Pokemon with decent physical bulk will probably be able to take its hits and 2HKO back&mdash;although Goldeen will remove their Eviolites with Knock Off in the process.</p>

    [gpthing]1/2[/gp]
  17. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Thanks, implemented.
  18. GCSChris

    GCSChris

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    Hey, I made an amcheck. Great job!
    Additions
    Deletions

    [Overview]
    <p>Little Cup has its share of first-stage Water-type Pokemon, and at first glance Goldeen seems to be just another run-of-the-mill Swift Swimmer in a metagame where Rain Dance teams are less than viable. However, thanks to its unique access to Lightningrod, Goldeen can serve as a solid counter to many Pokemon like Chinchou, Magnemite, and Ponyta that rely on Electric-type attacks to hit Water-types. Goldeen also benefits from good Attack and Speed and a solid movepool, including Megahorn to hit Grass-types and Knock Off to support its team by removing opponents' Eviolites. Although Goldeen seems to be overshadowed by Chinchou at first as a Water-type immune to Electric-type attacks, Goldeen's greater hitting power, ability to heavily damage Grass-types, and access to Knock Off can give it an edge. Overall, Goldeen's combination of ability, typing, stats, and movepool allow it to have a niche in Little Cup even when Swift Swim is not a viable strategy.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Attacker
    move 1: Aqua Tail
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Drill Run
    move 4: Knock Off
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Lightningrod
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 76 HP / 220 Atk / 36 Def / 172 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Goldeen can make use of its good Attack and Speed and usable bulk combined with Lightningrod to serve as a niche counter to some Pokemon, but that can still deal significant damage to the opposing team. Being a Water-type with an immunity to Electric-type attacks, Goldeen hard-counters most Magnemite, Chinchou, and Return-less Ponyta, and is bulky enough to take a hit from most other physical attackers and respond with an attacking move or Knock Off. Aqua Tail is a strong physical STAB that can hit hard thanks to Goldeen's good base 67 Attack; it is used over Waterfall because its extra power gets some important OHKOs and 2HKOs against Pokemon such as Scraggy and Murkrow. However, if you can provide enough entry hazard support and residual damage, Waterfall is a slightly more reliable option. Megahorn complements Aqua Tail well and allows Goldeen to hit Grass-types for heavy damage, OHKOing Snover and 2HKOing Lileep. Drill Run is the best coverage move for Goldeen, hitting the Pokemon Goldeen hard-counters like Chinchou and Magnemite super effectively. Knock Off allows Goldeen to provide valuable utility for its team in removing the Eviolites of bulky switch-ins. As Goldeen tends to lure different Pokemon in than Mienfoo&mdash;specifically Grass-types like Ferroseed or Lileep&mdash;it can provide support to Pokemon that Mienfoo is less adept at helping. For example, by luring in Ferroseed, Lileep, Snover, and Porygon (Pokemon that would never switch into Mienfoo) and removing their Eviolites, Goldeen can weaken many of Murkrow's checks and allow it to clean up the opposing team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>Goldeen works well with teammates that appreciate its ability to make Magnemite and offensive Chinchou near-useless while Goldeen is in the battle. Murkrow appreciates Goldeen's ability to shut down some of its checks and soften others with Knock Off; Murkrow can in return switch into Grass-type attacks and use priority Sucker Punch to check Pokemon that would set up on Goldeen. As Goldeen is excellent at luring in Grass-types like Lileep and Foongus and removing their Eviolites with Knock Off, Pokemon that can break through Lileep and Foongus with this help make for excellent teammates. Tirtouga likes having a partner that can switch into Chinchou and can OHKO Eviolite-less Lileep and Foongus after a Shell Smash, and Goldeen can help Tirtouga further by luring and 2HKOing Croagunk with Drill Run.</p>

    <p>Although Goldeen can OHKO Snover with Megahorn on the switch (or use Knock Off to remove its Choice Scarf or Eviolite and proceed to outspeed and OHKO with Megahorn), Goldeen is still vulnerable to being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Snover and thus appreciates teammates like Murkrow and Ponyta that can switch into Grass-type attacks. Frillish and Mantyke hard-wall Goldeen, although they don't appreciate Knock Off; carrying a Lileep or even a Magnemite or Chinchou of your own can help deal with them. Goldeen cannot effectively stop setup sweepers such as Scraggy or Axew. Riolu counters Scraggy, and can use Protect and Copycat to revenge kill Axew with its own Outrage. In order to get a lot of OHKOes and 2HKOes, Goldeen needs entry hazard support and residual damage. Ferroseed can provide Stealth Rock and/or Spikes, Snover can provide Hail residual damage and check Drilbur, and Hippopotas can provide both Stealth Rock and Sandstorm for residual damage&mdash;although Sandstorm teams may not appreciate stacking up on weaknesses to Grass-type moves with Goldeen.</p>

    [Other Options]
    <p>Although a Rain Dance Life Orb Swift Swim set seems like a possibility for Goldeen to sweep, Swift Swim simply isn't good in this metagame with the high usage of Snover and Hippopotas, and there are better Swift Swim sweepers than Goldeen anyway. Goldeen has a decent special movepool, but it has terrible Special Attack. Toxic, Aqua Ring, and Protect are other support options, but Goldeen isn't bulky enough to stay in for that many turns. A defensive set with Scald, Toxic, and Knock Off can be used, but Goldeen's Special Attack is abysmal and the set would be even greater setup fodder than it already is.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]
    <p>Foongus isn't 2HKOed by anything Goldeen can do, and it can Spore or Giga Drain in return. Snover can revenge kill Goldeen with Giga Drain, but it needs a Choice Scarf to avoid getting outsped and OHKOed by Megahorn. Frillish takes next to no damage from any of Goldeen's attacks, burns Goldeen with Will-O-Wisp, and Recovers off any damage, although Goldeen can at least use Knock Off to remove its Eviolite. Ferroseed takes any of Goldeen's attacks and hits back with Bullet Seed or sets up entry hazards. Croagunk can switch into most of Goldeen's attacks, but it is 2HKOed by Drill Run. In the end, Goldeen is neither especially powerful nor especially bulky, so Pokemon with decent physical bulk will probably be able to take its hits and 2HKO back&mdash;although Goldeen will remove their Eviolites with Knock Off in the process.</p>
  19. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    don't mean to be rude but i'm not implementing any of the above changes as they miss the intended meaning of the sentences that were changed, lol.
    gp please
  20. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    [​IMG]GP Check[​IMG]
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    Great job Woodchuck, comments for the reasoning of my somehwat subjective changes can be found in the check.

    [​IMG]
    GP Approved 2/2
  21. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    I've made the changes I agreed with and made different changes and pmed you about the sections on which we disagreed. Thanks for the check, and this is now done.
  22. macle

    macle frog jesus died for your sins
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    uploaded.

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