Golduck [QC:2/3] (Written)

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ManOfMany

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Overview
##########
Golduck is a staple of rain in PU. In the rain, it transforms into a terrifying sweeper due to Swift Swim, unable to be outsped by even Choice Scarf Raichu. Golduck's life orb boosted hydro pump in the rain easily OHKOes most offensive pokemon and 2HKOs all special walls who don't resist it. It also has coverage in psychic and ice beam to beat the common pokemon who can take this combination, Poliwrath and grass types such as Tangela. Golduck is still able to function as a threat on non-rain teams by setting up rain dance, which it usually finds an opportunity to set up due to forcing switches. However, it faces competition from Poliwrath here on both non-rain teams and rain-teams, because Poliwrath has a more useful typing. Golduck, however, hits much harder and is faster. It is also easily worn down with Life Orb Recoil and the rain turns can be stalled out by smart switching.

Rain Dance
##########
name: Rain Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Psychic
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
nature: Modest

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
=========

-Rain Dance is Golduck's setup move, doubling its speed and boosting the power of its water type moves. If Golduck is already on a rain team with rain support, then it can run Surf instead of Rain Dance for an accurate STAB move that still OHKOes most offensive pokemon. Hydro Pump is Golduck's most powerful move and OHKOes almost all offensive pokemon that do not resist it, and even some that do (such as Kingler). Ice Beam is necessary to hit the grass types that resist water, such as Tangela and Gourgeist. Psychic is used to deal heavy damage to Poliwrath.

Set Details
=========

252 Speed EVs allow Golduck to outspeed Choice Scarf Raichu in rain and below, as well as tie with other Golduck and Articuno outside of rain. 252 SpA and Modest Nature lets Golduck hit as hard as possible. Life Orb lets Golduck hit even harder and grabs some crucial KOs with ice beam, such as against Tangela after Stealth Rock damage, although the recoil will wear down Golduck quickly. Swift Swim is the necessary ability to grab the speed boost in rain.

Usage Tips:
==========

If using on rain teams, Golduck can be sent in when the rain is up and when its checks or counters are weakened or removed, allowing it to cleanly sweep the opposing team. It can also be used a midgame wallbreaker that opens holes in the opponent's team for another sweeper. Hydro Pump should usually be spammed as this is Golduck's strongest move. Avoid keeping Golduck in on strong priority such as Sucker Punch from Mightyena, because this combined with life orb recoil will wear it down and prevent it from sweeping late-game. Golduck used on a non-rain team can set up on weaker pokemon such as Scarf Mr.Mime, or pokemon it forces out like Armaldo. Golduck has okay bulk but it should not set up in front of strong attackers like Ursaring because they can either KO or put it in the range of death due to Life Orb recoil. Although Golduck can tank attacks such as Machoke's Close Combat or Ninetales Energy Ball at full health, avoid setting up vs them because the life orb recoil will quickly suicide Golduck. Avoid setting up on pokemon that commonly use status moves, such as Grumpig, because thunder-wave and toxic will severely cut down Golduck's sweeping ability. Golduck shouldn't be switching in on most attacks, but it can be brought in safely through a volt switch or u-turn user. Golduck can be used as a simple attacker to revenge-kill slower pokemon like Stoutland and Aurorus if it does not get the opportunity to sweep.

Team Options
==========
Golduck pairs well with special wallbreakers, such as Nasty Plot Ninetales and Simisage, who lure and weaken special walls like Lickilicky and Togetic that can switch in on Golduck. Pokemon such as Piloswine, Golem, and Roselia can set up hazards to wear down grass types that can take an ice beam at full health. Toxic Spikes also works great to wear down specially bulky pokemon like Lickilicky and Grumpig. Water types such as Specially Defensive Pelipper can be lured and weakened by the likes of Ninetales. Electric and Grass types like Leafeon and Raichu can handle these water types, while flying types such as Swanna and Dodrio can handle grass types. Knock off users such as Pawniard and Leafeon can lure and weaken pokemon like Roselia and Tangela. Pokemon such as Volbeat or Electrode can set up rain dance and give Golduck a free switch with volt switch/u-turn. Other swift swim abusers pair well with Golduck on a rain team, such as Poliwrath, Beartic, and Armaldo, as well as pokemon like Swanna and Raichu who have the accuracy of Hurricane and Thunder boosted by the rain.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
==========

Psyshock could be used instead of Psychic because it KOs Roselia after it switches into hydro pump, but it hits Poliwrath weaker. Hidden Power Electric could be used on the rain dance set specifically to OHKO Swanna and 2HKO Specially Defensive Pelipper, but Swanna and physically defensive versions of Pelipper are already 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Synchronoise hits Poliwrath and other water types much harder than psychic, but can give non-water type pokemon free switch-ins.
A Calm Mind set with either substitute or encore makes a workable sweeper, but Golduck lacks set-up opportunities. A Calm Mind, rest, sleep talk, scald set may be tempting because it is similar to Suicune, but Golduck lacks the bulk to pull it off. A Cloud Nine set with four attacking moves gives huge trouble to weather teams, but weather is not dominant enough for it to be reliable. A Substitute-Disable set can be useful, but Golduck lacks enough immunities like Haunter.

Checks and Counters
===========
** Special Walls ** Two rain boosted hydro pumps will destroy any special wall, but Lickilicky, Hypno, Grumpig, and Togetic can still play around its low accuracy and recoil damage. Hypno, Grumpig, and Togetic can check Golduck in a 1v1 situation by tanking Hydro Pump and paralysing in return. Regice also avoids the OHKO from hydro pump and can damage Golduck heavily with thunderbolt.

** Bulky Waters ** Specially Defensive Pelipper avoids the 2HKO from all Golduck's moves and can gain back HP with roost, while using toxic or air slash to wear down Golduck. Poliwrath is also a threat despite Psychic because it can switch into water attacks due to water absorb. Politoed and Lapras, while rare, are complete stops to Golduck.

** Faster Attackers ** Pokemon such as Quick Feet Ursaring or Raichu can outspeed and KO Golduck before it gets the chance to set up. Scarf Aurorus with Snow Warning outspeeds Golduck in the rain and can KO it with Freeze Dry after one round of life orb recoil.

** Grass Types ** Roselia and Gogoat can tank even multiple ice beams depending on their EV spread, and hit Golduck back hard with Giga Drain and Horn Leech respectively, recovering damage in the process. Specially Defensive Tangela and Gourgeist-Super can tank ice beam at full health and retaliate with their grass STABs but they have to be careful of switching in.

** Priority ** Golduck won't be OHKOed by any priority at full health, but due to life orb recoil it can still be picked off. It fears sucker punch from Pawniard and Mightyena, as well as Dodrio's quick attack at lower health. It also fears priority encore, thunder wave, and sunny day from Volbeat and Murkrow, as these can all stop a sweep.
 
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Anty

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There is no reason not to run max speed in the Rain Dance set, as firstly, 28 hp does nothing for you (7 more hp lol), and you might as well speed tie with agility cuno/other cuno and golduck outside of rain.

I will give this a full check when you are done but it looks solid so far.
Just saying that you dont want to mention flareon as a partner for a rain mon
 

ManOfMany

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I changed the speed EVs, but I'm keeping Flareon because Golduck is not meant to be used exclusively on rain teams. It can work on balanced teams as well like self-setting Rain Dance Ludicolo or self-setting Poliwrath.

I'm also adding a very specific EV spread for the calm mind set
 

WhiteDMist

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Tbh, Focs Blast in Moves, HP Electric in OO at best. Hydro Pump in rain already 2HKOs Pelipper and, with Rocks, OHKOes Swanna.

-This Golduck works best on rain teams but can also function outside of rain.
Kind of makes it sound like it should be used on Rain teams most of the time. Regardless, you already have a couple of wallbreakers listed that DON'T get weakened if it's raining. I see no need to mention Flareon, especially if Golduck itself sets up Rain which means Flareon can't use Flare Blitz to its fullest. If you want to mention another wallbreaker, mention Ursaring or else note that Flareon doesn't work as well if its Raining.
 

ManOfMany

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Tbh, Focs Blast in Moves, HP Electric in OO at best. Hydro Pump in rain already 2HKOs Pelipper and, with Rocks, OHKOes Swanna.


Kind of makes it sound like it should be used on Rain teams most of the time. Regardless, you already have a couple of wallbreakers listed that DON'T get weakened if it's raining. I see no need to mention Flareon, especially if Golduck itself sets up Rain which means Flareon can't use Flare Blitz to its fullest. If you want to mention another wallbreaker, mention Ursaring or else note that Flareon doesn't work as well if its Raining.
All right, I changed it to Ursaring. What does Focus Blast hit besides Lapras? (Hydro Pump in rain already hits Regice and Lickilicky harder).
 

WhiteDMist

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Water Absorb Politoed. Lapras is just icing on the cake. Neither are too important, which is why it's Moves, not a slash
 
In moves, say that scald should (usually) be used over rain dance if you're using a dedicated rain team, as having a reliable stab that gets most of the KOes that hydro pump does is invaluable, as you often need to hit multiple hydros per game otherwise.
 

ManOfMany

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In moves, say that scald should (usually) be used over rain dance if you're using a dedicated rain team, as having a reliable stab that gets most of the KOes that hydro pump does is invaluable, as you often need to hit multiple hydros per game otherwise.
Okay, I was thinking of this myself. However Scald misses out on the OHKO of several important targets such as Frost, Mime, Barbaracle, and Drifblim which Surf doesn't. So should I put Surf or Scald, or both?
 

Anty

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Overview
##########
I would say 'outclassed by simipour outside of rain' considering your second set isnt necessarily in rain

Rain Dance
##########
M: 'Hydro Pump in the rain OHKOs virtually every offensive pokemon' It doesnt ohko most offensive mons, so this should be reworded. If surf misses out the 2HKO on licki then i dont think it is worth using, in fact the only time pokes use surf is if they already have hydro on the set, so move surf to oo.
SD: Dont mention scarf raichu as a benchmark, as it is bad, and 'The remaining EVs are dumped in HP for more bulk', 4 evs dont do much at all, there is no point in mentioning it.
UT: 'This Golduck works best on rain teams but can also function outside of rain.' - reword this, as the set has rain dance on it. The usage tips dont say much how to use golduck, talk a bit more on when to use (early/mid/late game)
TO is looking good, but there is stuff like 'Knock off abusers can wear down Poliwrath and grass types until they are in the KO range of psychic/ice beam', which doesnt make sense, because grass types will switch out of the most common knock off user, sneasel. 'Meowstic can set up dual screens to ensure Golduck can set up rain dance', i wouldnt use dual screens just for golduck considering it only sets up once

Calm Mind
#########
Again with surf here, there is no point, as scald is only a bit weaker, but can cripple switch ins like lickilicky. Hydro pump should be slashed with scald here. You need to stress that psychic also hits opposing water types, as that is its main appeal over ice beam, also no need to mention rose as a psychic target, as ice beam also hits it.
I dont like the current speed benchmark, as there are other relevant things modest duck wants to beat; stoutland which has gotten quite decent recently. In this case you would need 216 speed EVs, and then you would have 40 in bulk, which i dont think is worth it considering it is only 10 HP points (and i cant find any attacks which now wont break duck's sub), so max spatk and speed is probably better. Leftovers should be slashed before life orb, and it should be mentioned that if lefties has to be with sub. Also explain why the items are used.
In UT talk a bit about encore
'Fast attackers such as Raichu or Sneasel can eliminate fast physical attackers that can revenge-kill Golduck.' That is bad logic, there is nothing that specifically beats faster pokes that should be mentioned. I think toxic spikes should be mentioned here, as they let sub varients stall out bulky pokes

Other Options
==========
I know the sentances are basically in bullet point form, just add bullet points anyway. Surf and HP grass should be mentioned here

Checks and Counters
===========
Prankster just isnt relevant enough to be mentioned here

Pokey-Man this looks good, tag me once you have implemented and i will check through and possibly stamp
 
Okay, I was thinking of this myself. However Scald misses out on the OHKO of several important targets such as Frost, Mime, Barbaracle, and Drifblim which Surf doesn't. So should I put Surf or Scald, or both?
just mention both i guess

also:

"- Powerful wallbreakers such as Ursaring, Marowak, and Rampardos eliminate specially bulky pokemon like Lickilicky" - Physical wallbreakers don't break special walls, mention special wallbreakers.
 

ManOfMany

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Overview
##########
I would say 'outclassed by simipour outside of rain' considering your second set isnt necessarily in rain

Rain Dance
##########
M: 'Hydro Pump in the rain OHKOs virtually every offensive pokemon' It doesnt ohko most offensive mons, so this should be reworded. If surf misses out the 2HKO on licki then i dont think it is worth using, in fact the only time pokes use surf is if they already have hydro on the set, so move surf to oo.
SD: Dont mention scarf raichu as a benchmark, as it is bad, and 'The remaining EVs are dumped in HP for more bulk', 4 evs dont do much at all, there is no point in mentioning it.
UT: 'This Golduck works best on rain teams but can also function outside of rain.' - reword this, as the set has rain dance on it. The usage tips dont say much how to use golduck, talk a bit more on when to use (early/mid/late game)
TO is looking good, but there is stuff like 'Knock off abusers can wear down Poliwrath and grass types until they are in the KO range of psychic/ice beam', which doesnt make sense, because grass types will switch out of the most common knock off user, sneasel. 'Meowstic can set up dual screens to ensure Golduck can set up rain dance', i wouldnt use dual screens just for golduck considering it only sets up once

Calm Mind
#########
Again with surf here, there is no point, as scald is only a bit weaker, but can cripple switch ins like lickilicky. Hydro pump should be slashed with scald here. You need to stress that psychic also hits opposing water types, as that is its main appeal over ice beam, also no need to mention rose as a psychic target, as ice beam also hits it.
I dont like the current speed benchmark, as there are other relevant things modest duck wants to beat; stoutland which has gotten quite decent recently. In this case you would need 216 speed EVs, and then you would have 40 in bulk, which i dont think is worth it considering it is only 10 HP points (and i cant find any attacks which now wont break duck's sub), so max spatk and speed is probably better. Leftovers should be slashed before life orb, and it should be mentioned that if lefties has to be with sub. Also explain why the items are used.
In UT talk a bit about encore
'Fast attackers such as Raichu or Sneasel can eliminate fast physical attackers that can revenge-kill Golduck.' That is bad logic, there is nothing that specifically beats faster pokes that should be mentioned. I think toxic spikes should be mentioned here, as they let sub varients stall out bulky pokes

Other Options
==========
I know the sentances are basically in bullet point form, just add bullet points anyway. Surf and HP grass should be mentioned here

Checks and Counters
===========
Prankster just isnt relevant enough to be mentioned here

Pokey-Man this looks good, tag me once you have implemented and i will check through and possibly stamp
Some changes have been implemented (the Life Orb part was a typo). I totally agree with Scald being first, it is one of the few things Golduck has over other Calm Minders.

Although we will have to discuss more about the set EVs. For me, running max speed max special attack makes no sense- not that it is bad, but you might as well just use a better offensive pokemon, such as Nasty Plot Simipour or Rain Dance Poliwrath/Golduck.
Although running 128 HP doesn’t do too much either. Perhaps take some EVs out of special attack and invest in bulk?
This would be much easier if people actually used CM Golduck…
 

WhiteDMist

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There was a bulkier EV spread for NU last gen which allowed Golduck to keep a sub up against defensive Roselia and defeat offensive Roselia and Ludicolo. IDK if it is worthwhile though, as this spread requires a boost in order to actually pose an offensive threat, and it was made for a different time and metagame. Last gen, Golduck had trouble finding a niche in NU which was why I made this spread (with help from ebeast); this gen, RD Golduck is very much viable in PU and there really isn't a need to look so in depth for a CM spread. tbh, CM Golduck is a bit hard to justify over RD Golduck anyways; but this is a starting point that you can use.
 

Anty

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There was a bulkier EV spread for NU last gen which allowed Golduck to keep a sub up against defensive Roselia and defeat offensive Roselia and Ludicolo. IDK if it is worthwhile though, as this spread requires a boost in order to actually pose an offensive threat, and it was made for a different time and metagame. Last gen, Golduck had trouble finding a niche in NU which was why I made this spread (with help from ebeast); this gen, RD Golduck is very much viable in PU and there really isn't a need to look so in depth for a CM spread. tbh, CM Golduck is a bit hard to justify over RD Golduck anyways; but this is a starting point that you can use.
I honestly dont think that spread is worth it considering the majority of rose run special attack investment "/. I really dont think that cm is good enough for a set, as i dont see why you would want to use it over NP simipour, who has more strength and speed which is more important in an offensive metagame. Golduck needs a substitute up so it doesnt get revenge killed by half the tier, at least simipour has speed to beat pokes like leafeon and haunter. It may have an easier time vs defensive teams, but they arent nearly as common as offensive ones, and have pokes like grumpig that can phaze you out.
Also talking to other qc, no one can think of much of a niche, mainly that it has a better matchup vs defensive teams which isnt necessarily true, and this is an offensive meta. Pls respond if you can think of a valid niche (not rejecting it now).
 

WhiteDMist

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Enough. Let's not judge Raichu sets until we have someone writing Raichu (and preferably after the suspect test). And there should be no snide remarks to anyone else either, I won't hesitate to start deleting posts if this keeps going. For now, Pokey-Man can make his own judgement on whether to keep the mention or not.
 

ManOfMany

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I am going to remove everything about Calm Mind and just keep the rain dance part because I also feel that Calm Mind is not viable after testing it. Someone else can do Calm Mind as a set later I guess...

I also changed the physical wallbreakers thing to special wallbreakers.

And I implemented all of what Anty said, except I kept the part about hydro pump in the rain OHKOing most offensive pokemon (because it does ?_?)
 
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Anty

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And I implemented all of what Anty said, except I kept the part about hydro pump in the rain OHKOing most offensive pokemon (because it does ?_?)
I mainly pointed that out as gp/site staff dont really like vague statements, i guess that is fine for a write up.

This is looking good, just a few small things to change. Firstly, explicitly state that its niche over other rain sweepers is its strength (in the overview).
'Don’t stay in vs pokemon who commonly use thunder wave or toxic.' - this could be worded better, as you should stay in if you can KO the poke, maybe change it to something like 'avoid status'
'Knock off abusers such as Marowak can wear down Poliwrath' - ik this is slightly nitpicky, but you should give a different example, as marowak wont be knock off'ing wrath (pawniard/sneasel are more relevant for this).

The formatting in oo is wrong, although it basically is in bullet point form, its probably better just to put it in that form. Also add a sub cm set to oo.

Regice shouldnt get its own section in oo as it doesnt exactly enjoy taking hydro pumps:
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regice in Rain: 169-200 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
there is a chance it dies to rocks + hydro + life orb recoil, yes it does check it, but only counters should get their own section

Do this and i will (probably) stamp, Pokey-Man
 

scorpdestroyer

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You'll need to include more examples. TO is lacking in examples in some areas (eg other rain sweepers, grass and electric attackers). Also please list examples of KOs that Life Orb and hazards damage help achieve when you mention them in Set Details and TO respectively.

UT: might wanna list a few more mons that Golduck can set up on

TO: not sure if Meowstic's dual screens are that important enough to be mentioned but if other QC think so I'll let it slide

OO:
- HP Electric shouldn't be used because Swanna and Pelipper are already 2HKOed, but please mention by which move as it may not be incredibly obvious (unless they all 2HKO in which case my bad didn't check)
- move the CM set to OO, you forgot to put it there when you removed it :/

+ everything Anty mentioned, if you're wondering you can group Regice under specially bulky pokemon with lickilicky
 
Mention HP Electric in moves to hit other Water types such as Basculin, Pelipper, and Simipour.
Mention access to psychic to beat poliwrath in overview and remove the point about cm.
CC should have a "revenge killer" section or something like a "type advantage" in which yo would group stuff like Zebstrika and raichu as well as priority moves and stuff

1/3
 

Anty

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Mention HP Electric in moves to hit other Water types such as Basculin, Pelipper, and Simipour.
I really dont think HP electric is worth it considering this:
OO:
- HP Electric shouldn't be used because Swanna and Pelipper are already 2HKOed, but please mention by which move as it may not be incredibly obvious (unless they all 2HKO in which case my bad didn't check)
If you look at the calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swanna in Rain: 224-264 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 205-242 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Pelipper isnt doing much back and you are losing an important moveslot
 
I really dont think HP electric is worth it considering this:


If you look at the calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swanna in Rain: 224-264 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 205-242 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Pelipper isnt doing much back and you are losing an important moveslot
ohkoing it in an 1v1 situation can be invaluable as well as the ability to
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 221-260 (75.6 - 89%) -- Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil
makes it worthy of a moves mention in my opinion
 
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