Gothitelle (OU Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by AccidentalGreed, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
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    I'm so hipster, I use this thing too much. But anyways, top priority Pokemon.

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    [Overview]

    <p>Gothitelle has become a hundred times more useful since the introduction of his newest and most prized ability, Shadow Tag, but at the horrifying expense of femininity—in a bizarre twist of fate, the only legal Shadow Tag Gothitelle are male. His modest base stats, apart from a high Special Defense, might indicate that he isn't exactly cut out for using Shadow Tag effectively; however, he still has just enough to fulfill a trapping role.</p>

    <p>Gothitelle is arguably the most versatile and flexible of the available trappers in OU. Unlike Dugtrio and Magnezone, Gothitelle isn't limited to trapping a certain group of threats; moreover, his decent movepool far surpasses the eight moves available to the only other viable Shadow Tag user: Wobbuffet. Additionally, Gothitelle's attacking movepool enables him to hit a wider range of threats super effectively, making him a more flexible fit on any team. Unfortunately, being a bad Psychic-type with a good ability, Gothitelle is also cursed with crippling downfalls. Pure Psychic typing does not really do him favors offensively or defensively, while his average stats still threaten to slow his team's momentum down. Despite these downfalls, Gothitelle is the one thing that can make sure his fellow sweepers wreak havoc without a hitch. After all, this funny concept of a Pokemon was banned from UU for a reason.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Psychic / Psyshock
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Signal Beam
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Shadow Tag
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Gothitelle and Choice Specs go together like peanut butter and jelly, as Choice Specs boosts Gothitelle's attacking power just to KO nearly any threat he comes across. However, the main reason for using this isn't just merely for power, but to also take advantage of Shadow Tag. The battle plan is simple; Gothitelle should switch into any potential threat to his team and use the appropriate move to quickly discard or cripple the intended target. Ideally, Gothitelle should have been able to eliminate or weaken any threat necessary before fainting so his teammates are able to clean up or sweep with little problems afterward.</p>

    <p>The first slot is reserved for Gothitelle's chosen STAB move. Psychic is the preferred out of the two due to its higher base power and ability to hit physical walls hard without other coverage moves. Psyshock, on the other hand, enables Gothitelle to KO many specially defensive threats, such as Blissey, Terrakion in Sandstorm, and Virizion, without faltering or using Trick too early. However, its benefit only really applies to offensive threats similar to Terrakion and Virizion, since Gothitelle can simply use Trick to cripple walls like Blissey. Thunderbolt grants decent coverage with Psychic-type STAB and provides a reliable way to dispose of Water-types and Skarmory.<p>

    <p>Finally, the third attacking move depends on the specific targets Gothitelle's team needs eliminated. Hidden Power Ice removes Gliscor, as well as other Ground- or Flying-type walls, and provides good coverage alongside Thunderbolt. Hidden Power Fire hurts Scizor and Ferrothorn amongst other Steel-types, though keep in mind that Gothitelle isn't necessarily a good switch-in or answer to either of them. If you need Gothitelle to handle Celebi, which can trouble rain teams and take other attacks with ease, as well as other Psychic- or Dark-types, use Signal Beam instead.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Simply maximizing Speed and Special Attack with a Timid nature is recommended when using this set. Although it may seem odd to invest in Gothitelle's low Speed, outrunning key threats such as defensive Jirachi, Adamant Breloom, and Timid Magnezone is very essential to his success. If more power or bulk is desired, you may instead consider a Modest nature and lower the speed EVs to outrun a specific set of defensive threats. A good benchmark is 44 Speed, which puts Gothitelle just ahead of uninvested base 70 Pokemon including Politoed and Skarmory, in addition to the occasional Quiet Dragonite.</p>

    <p>There are many possible attacking options that Gothitelle can use, depending on which threats his teammates have the most trouble with. Grass Knot can hit both Tyranitar and bulky Water-types hard, enabling Gothitelle to choose a more desirable Hidden Power. Grass Knot, unlike Hidden Power Ice, can also cleanly OHKO Hippowdon. As far as alternative Hidden Powers are concerned, Hidden Power Fighting is Gothitelle's best weapon against Tyranitar and hits a number of Steel-types at least neutrally, but offers subpar coverage at best. Hidden Power Ground damages Heatran specifically and covers little else besides Jirachi under the rain. It is not advised to replace Trick with a coverage move, as the ability to lock a defensive Pokemon into one move for the rest of the match is extremely valuable.</p>

    <p>Obviously enough, teams that have trouble dealing with a particular threat strongly appreciate Gothitelle's unique capabilities. The possibilities—in terms of teammates and team strategies—are numerous. For instance, Fighting-types generally have issues getting past specific defensive threats if they lack either the power or the correct coverage move. Among these Fighting-types, Swords Dance Lucario is perhaps the most tragic example, as it is walled by Jellicent and Slowbro if it lacks Crunch, and Gliscor if it lacks Ice Punch. Gothitelle, however, can decimate these threats with a simple Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ice (given his speed, he is more adept at eliminating the former two), giving Lucario an essential win condition if other counters are taken care of. Gothitelle also pairs well with entry hazard users, such as Skarmory and Forretress, because he can take out the most common Rapid Spin users—Starmie, Tentacruel, and Forretress—in a hit or two. Being a supporting attacker, Gothitelle himself does not need much support; however, he has peculiar synergy with U-turn or Volt Switch users, especially Scizor, Rotom-W, and Genesect. Using either of these moves eases prediction, maintains offensive momentum, and enables Gothitelle to switch into his intended target. The three aforementioned Pokemon also tend to lure in counters that can be beaten by Gothitelle, so this is a strategy all Gothitelle users should keep in mind.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Psyshock / Psychic
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Shadow Tag
    nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Wielding a Choice Scarf not only makes Gothitelle even more fashionably fabulous, but it also allows him to be a faster, and arguably more offensively efficient, trapper. Much like Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Scizor, this Gothitelle can trap and revenge kill most threats needed without taking unnecessary damage from faster and more powerful foes. The icing on the cake is Trick, which, in combination with Shadow Tag and Choice Scarf, can instantly turn most defensive Pokemon into liabilities for the opposing team. Keep in mind, however, that Gothitelle's average Special Attack and Speed limits this set a bit, and is thus restricted to attacking most unboosted threats not holding a Choice Scarf of their own, which covers anything as fast as Tornadus-T and slower.</p>

    <p>Because this set lacks the power of the Choice Specs set, one might find Psyshock more beneficial than Psychic overall, as Psyshock is Gothitelle's strongest option against Tentacruel, Terrakion in sandstorm, Calm Mind Keldeo, and Virizion. Even against physical walls such as Gliscor and Hippowdon, Psychic lacks the power to even 2HKO, but it can still be used for the minor increase in power. Thunderbolt is more valuable than ever, enabling Gothitelle to revenge kill Tornadus-T and Starmie effortlessly among other faster Water- or Flying-types. The third attack again depends on which threats Gothitelle must hit. Hidden Power Ice is more useful on this set, as it grants neutral coverage in addition to fast and easy KOs against the likes of Gliscor, both Landorus formes, unboosted Dragonite, and unboosted Salamence. If Forretress, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Genesect (that aren't locked into a Bug-type move) prove to be troublesome, Gothitelle can use Hidden Power Fire at the cost of coverage and a perfect Speed IV.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Maximized Special Attack and Speed, along with a Timid nature, ensures that Gothitelle can revenge kill as many threats as possible, placing him just ahead of max Speed Tornadus-T by a single point. If Gothitelle uses Hidden Power Fire it is still advised to maximize Speed, as he can still outrun positive base 120 threats, and possibly win the Speed tie against Tornadus-T. As far as other moves are concerned, Grass Knot is a notable option as Gothitelle's strongest option against Hippowdon, Gastrodon, and Jellicent. Signal Beam can still be used to get the jump on Celebi, Latios, and other Psychic-types. The other Hidden Powers types mentioned in the Choice Specs set are near useless here, as Gothitelle now lacks the power necessary to break through Heatran, Tyranitar, and many others. At the end of the barren barrel of options, Gothitelle can replace his least important coverage move with Thunder Wave, enabling it to cripple foes he can't kill in dangerous situations.</p>

    <p>Despite investment in his Special Attack, Choice Scarf Gothitelle is still slightly weak offensively; in fact, without entry hazards up, he finds himself unable to cleanly OHKO Timid Tornadus-T. Therefore, setting up entry hazards early in the game would help him greatly in obtaining as many quick KOs as possible. And given that Gothitelle can fit on multiple types of teams, and the ubiquity of entry hazards, entry hazard support is usually present. Additionally, teammates with U-turn or Volt Switch are still beneficial, as they can scout and damage incoming switch-ins to gain momentum and prepare for a successful trap-and-kill.</p>

    <p>On stall or most other defensively oriented teams, Gothitelle can be used to eliminate Tentacruel and Starmie, which are among the most common spinners. After a significant amount of entry hazards have been laid out, Gothitelle can trap and possibly overwhelm the opposing team. On more offensively minded teams, Gothitelle is once again a Fighting-type's best friend; as Terrakion, Lucario, and other similar attackers generally have problems with Gliscor and other walls, Gothitelle can be relied on to eliminate or cripple them with Trick. It should be noted that because of the Speed increase, Gothitelle with Hidden Power Ice is a more reliable check against the usually faster Gliscor.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Psyshock
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Fire / Reflect
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Shadow Tag
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Gothitelle's disappointingly low Speed, lack of recovery, and pure Psychic typing might make him seem like an unviable Calm Mind user in OU. However, as with all sets, the main reason to use Calm Mind Gothitelle is because of his ability to trap and dispatch any foe you find necessary. Unlike other Calm Mind users, Gothitelle can set up a large amount of boosts with impunity without fear of being unexpectedly Tricked or being forced to switch out—problems that other defensive Calm Mind users detest. Gothitelle can therefore freely set up on and discard either defensive or Choice-locked threats, then proceed on to a possible sweep.</p>

    <p>Psyshock is a required move on this set due to Gothitelle's tendency to struggle in Calm Mind wars otherwise. Without it, Gothitelle is liable to one-on-one losses against Calm Mind Latias, Jirachi, and Reuniclus. Although Rest may seem unconventional on a Pokemon lacking Sleep Talk, this is Gothitelle's only method of recovering from damage and status. Gothitelle need not worry about being inactive for a couple of turns, as he can be selective in which Pokemon he sets up on, and acquire enough boosts to withstand their attacks.</p>

    <p>The last slot depends on which targets Gothitelle needs to hit or set up on specifically. Hidden Power Fighting is a primary option as it hits Tyranitar and other Dark-types, which can otherwise end Gothitelle with powerful super effective STAB moves. It also deals a decent amount of damage to most Steel-types, hitting them for at least neutral damage; although, it cannot OHKO Skarmory, Scizor, or Ferrothorn without several boosts coupled with prior damage. If such threats are of a greater concern, Hidden Power Fire rids of them instantly, though this in turn leaves Gothitelle walled by Heatran and Tyranitar. Finally, Reflect is an option over an attacking move as it helps Gothitelle potentially survive the opponent's attempts at dispatching it with powerful physical moves. However, this comes at the price of coverage, leaving Gothitelle unable to bypass Dark-types completely, in addition to some of the bulkier Steel-types.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The listed EVs allow Gothitelle to outrun threats with uninvested base 70 Speed and retain as much physical bulk as possible. Maximized HP is used to soften damage taken from Seismic Toss and minor forms of damage, such as entry hazards and Toxic. A more offensive EV spread with 252 SpA EVs and a Modest nature is also viable, though Gothitelle loses out on a significant amount of bulk in the process. You may even consider increasing the Speed EVs to outrun other defensive Pokemon, though this, again, sacrifices survivability.</p>

    <p>Other attacks to consider in the third slot include Hidden Power Ground and Thunderbolt. Although Hidden Power Ground is rather specific coverage-wise, it it is the best possible weapon against Heatran and Jirachi in any weather. Thunderbolt has a higher base power than the listed moves, and unlike Hidden Power Fighting, can potentially OHKO Scizor and Skarmory with only a few boosts; the only significant target Gothitelle really loses out on with Thunderbolt is Ferrothorn. Gothitelle is also one of the few Pokemon that can get away with using Sleep Talk, as Shadow Tag fixes almost every problem that other RestTalk users face. Thanks to this, Gothitelle can trap anything it wants, free from worry of being Tricked or being forced out. This, like Reflect, leaves Gothitelle walled by certain threats, so consider the options carefully.</p>

    <p>Although Gothitelle can potentially sweep teams whole (especially stall or defensively minded ones), one should not rely on him as a main sweeper, given the low initial power and coverage issues. Gothitelle's main function still is eliminating troublesome foes for the team, so his teammates should capitalize on this. Other special attackers, such as Genesect, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, and Psyshock-less Latios benefit greatly, as Gothitelle can set up on and eliminate their hard counters, including Amoonguss, Jellicent, Slowbro, and Chansey. Additionally, Fighting-types still synergize well offensively, as many of them can patch up any of Gothitelle's possible coverage issues and benefit from the trapping and elimination of their counters. These teammates, if possible, should also be able to take on Gliscor, as without a super effective Hidden Power or Psychic, Gothitelle lacks efficient means of hitting it. Again, Keldeo does well in this respect with its Water-type STAB, while Lucario and Mienshao can take Gliscor on comfortably with Ice Punch or Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Like many other Psychic-type Pokemon, Gothitelle has a very colorful and extensive movepool, but the sets listed above are the best bets for being useful for his team. Support roles are relatively limited due to Gothitelle's lack of reliable recovery and exploitable pure Psychic typing. Despite these drawbacks, Gothitelle still has the potential to trap and debilitate key parts of the opposing team, with options such as Thunder Wave, Tickle, Charm, Flash, Fake Tears, Taunt, and Trick in his repertoire. Perhaps the best support set Gothitelle can manage is a dual screens set, consisting of Reflect, Light Screen, and two filler moves (preferably two of Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, Psychic, and Taunt). Dual screen support, however, is typically utilized on offensive teams; thus, faster dual screen users are generally more beneficial to maintain as much offensive momentum as possible. Gothitelle, while having an advantage in Shadow Tag, can often be beaten down by faster attackers or Taunt users.</p>

    <p>Gothitelle can also use an odd combination of Taunt, Torment, Protect, and Substitute to shut down either dedicated defensive threats or Choiced attackers. The idea behind this set is to trap these targets, then force them to Struggle themselves to death by using Taunt and Torment. Every other couple of turns, Gothitelle must use Protect or Substitute to avoid the threat's main attacking move. Such a strategy, however, is overspecialized. In short, defensive threats must have no more than one attacking move in order for the strategy to succeed, and the set itself is a liability against offensive Pokemon—no less offensive teams—in general.</p>

    <p>As for other attacking options, the best Gothitelle can do is use Fake Tears in order to dispatch the opponent more quickly than it could with Calm Mind. The ChestoRest combination allows Gothitelle to set up or attack more comfortably in the face of continuous damage and status, rather than stay inactive for two turns thanks to Rest. Gothitelle can even try out a non-choiced attacking set so that he can switch attacks; Expert Belt, Leftovers, Lum Berry, and Life Orb are the alternative items for such a set. In place of Trick, Gothitelle should use Thunder Wave, Fake Tears, Taunt, or Substitute to help himself or his teammates.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>So you want to counter Gothitelle? First of all, get your priorities straight.</p>

    <p>In order to actually "counter" something by definition, a Pokemon must be able to switch in safely. Thanks to Shadow Tag, this is pretty much impossible without the use of a switching move or the rare Shed Shell. Even then, good players can choose to simply avoid—if not straight-out destroy—threats using such tactics, and Shed Shell itself is relatively nonexistent save for several Steel-types. Nonetheless, Gothitelle's weakness to U-turn is hard to ignore. Even a non-STAB U-turn will deal a decent amount of damage to him, and because a different Pokemon will switch in the process, Gothitelle will have to adapt heavily depending on the situation. Genesect is particularly dangerous in this respect, as it can boost its Attack stat to bypass Special Defense boosts and deal major damage with STAB U-turn. Volt Switch and Baton Pass users can also switch out safely to a reliable check or counter.</p>

    <p>As far as defensive countermeasures are concerned, Gothitelle has a hard time powering through threats without appropriate coverage moves or Special Attack boosts. For instance, without Hidden Power Fighting, he generally struggles against Heatran and Dark-types, especially Tyranitar and Hydreigon. Without Hidden Power Fire, he can't KO Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory without being damaged, statused, or phazed out in the process. Among most special walls, Latias and Celebi can also take most attacks comfortably save Signal Beam or, in Celebi's case, a boosted Hidden Power Fire. Other walls can also be crippled by obtaining a Choice item via Trick. Generally speaking, Gothitelle's lack of good resistances and recovery make him easy to batter around with entry hazards and attacks. Gothitelle can be taken down with continual pressure, and because he is played as a support Pokemon, players often do not need to pack dedicated checks and counters to fend him off.</p>
  2. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
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    and I thought by playing OU I wouldn't have to look at Jynx anymore- now here comes her ugly step brother

    My Comments:

    Specs Set:
    • I don't think HP Fire deserves a slash. The only thing it hits is Ferrothorn/Forretress, which HP Fighting hits hard enough.
      CALCS:
      252+ HP Fighting vs 252/168 Ferrothorn: 44-52%
      252+ HP Fire vs 252/168 Ferrothorn: 87-105
      252+ HP Fighting vs 248/100+ Heatran: 42-49%
      252+ HP Ground vs 248/100+ Heatran: 83-99%
    • HP Fighting is more rounded off coverage, whereas HP Fire is more direct. Still, HP Fighting manages to 2HKO Ferro and 3HKO Heatran. Both are 2HKO'd after SR
    • Maybe even take out HP Ground; most Heatrans have balloons, and HP Ground only hits Jirachi/Metagross- both of which have enough power to muscle past Gothitelle if at ~50%.
    Calm Mind:
    • Whoa that fourth moveslot. I suggest moving Reflect to move 3 and slash it AFTER Rest. Reflect gives Gothitelle a lot of physical bulk, and boy does she have the time to use it. Rest should only be used with Sleep Talk, IMO.
    Dual Screens:
    • Looks ok to me, haven't used it yet
    Support:
    • This looks mighty similar to DS. Not so sure, another set I haven't used
    Attacker:
    • HP Fighting instead of HP Ground. Same reason as for Specs.
    • Expert Belt in front of Lefties; that OHKO to Skarmory is damn useful and so is bluffing a choice item. Though, Goth's poor speed makes bluffing somewhat hard to pull off
    Choice Scarf:
    • Stress how it outspeeds Tornadus-T

    looks pretty good, though support+DS could maybe be combined. Nice job.
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    It really depends on the team. If the team really wants Ferrothorn / Scizor / Forry gone, then HP Fire is the way to knock them out ASAP with no wasted health on Goth's part. HP Ground is the most efficient way in removing Heatran (it's not hard to pop the balloon before bringing in Gothitelle).

    HP Fighting does pathetic amount of damage to both Ferrothorn and Heatran. I'm confused as to what exactly HP Fighting does for Specs Gothitelle. It shouldn't be facing TTar, since Specs Goth will lose the battle; Dugtrio exists for killing TTar flawlessly anyways. Goth may be able to catch choiced TTar locked into Superpower, but I'd much rather have Grass Knot and save Hidden Power for something more useful.
  4. Ambicrow3

    Ambicrow3

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    I'm glad to see someone making an analysis for gothitelle. I've been spending my time testing Gothitelle, seeing what sets work the best. These are my opinions of how the sets you listed fair.

    Choice Specs-It seems like you have tested this around the same amount I have(if not more), but I'm surprised you didn't put HP ice in your hidden power slashes. Maybe it's just me, but since the specs set is used to trap physical walls (I presume that's what you use it for, since that seems the most effective way the specs set has worked for me), and tricking certain walls, like Ferrothorn for example(if not carrying hp fire). It may just be me, but when I tried HP Ice, it worked much better than HP fire. I didn't have a dragon on the team, instead I ran Conkelldur (is that spelled right?) and Terrakion, switching them back and forth between the physical attackwer spot. So from my conclusion it might be viable to mention somewhere for HP Ice to be used for physical fighting types, and HP Fire or Ground for physical Dragon types.

    Calm Mind-This is the 2nd set I have tested excessively. I personally would slash trick room somewhere in there, but I can't find where, since your Set is way different from mine. Trick Room allows Gothitelle to blow by certain threats allowing the sweep to come a little more cleanly. It seems like your set is trying imitate CM Reuniclus. Reuniclus can pull it off with it's slow speed, because it has access to instant recovery(not named rest) and has physical bulk that is much greater. Even though shadow tag is a great ability, and allows you to set up all those calm minds, most physical attackers can outspeed and KO it right off the death of the trapped pokemon. I guess reflect fixes it, but still, it seems like an uphill battle with only a psychic type move at your side. Don't take this with too much consideration I guess, since I haven't tested the reflect version, which seems like the only useful slash in my opinion.

    Dual Screener-I tried this same set(Heal Bell over Taunt though) on my HO team, and it sometimes worked wonders, easily setting up screens multuple times in the same match, which some Screeners would yearn for, and other times it couldn't come in and set up screens because the opposing team was too offensive, and it couldn't really set-up on anything. Not much to say here, the set is perfect how it is, though you may want to mention how unlike other screeners, it can't do very well vs. offensive teams, since it is too slow to get the first screen up before the attack.

    Support-I've never dwindled the idea in my head. I may test it, but it seems efficient at what it does, and I've never made a good team where a support pokemon like that is needed.

    Choice ScarfGreat at revenge killing, and there isn't much to say on the matter. You have everything that I have pondered and come across, and even some valid points that I haven't come across.

    General Trapping-You may want to mention how Volt-Turning eases up trapping predictions, since without it you will have to rely on double switches, which is never a good thing to have a pokemon rely on.
  5. tab

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    HP slashes on specs should be Fire/Ground in that order imo. With HP Fighting, you miss the 2HKO (which is a possible OHKO/guarenteed with some amount of previous damage that I cant remember) on Ferrothorn, which is one of those mons youre always going to want to be able to trap. I'm also not sure about the EV spread. When I used Specs, I just run 252 SpA/252 Spe Timid, which puts you at 251, letting you outspeed things like a lot of Gliscors, Tentacruel, everything that aims to outspeed TTar (i.e. Tricking sdef Jirachi), adamant Breloom etc. Even uninvested, I found that Gothitelle had enough bulk to take a hit when it had to, so I'd expect speed is the way to go.

    I'm not really convinced that the Dual Screens/Support sets are worth having outside of other options, but I haven't tried them or seen anyone using them, so whatever.

    You should probably mention Volt Switch/U-turn in at least Specs and Scarf, but especially Specs imo: it's the easiest way to ensure Gothitelle kills something, which is how I found was the best way to use it. Just U-turn away, and often you'll be able to trap any of three or so mons that you saw in team preview which opens up a weakness to something you have.
  6. Ambicrow3

    Ambicrow3

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    When I made my Gothitelle set, I ran the same EVs for specs. This allows it to take so many things, like a life orb hurricane from tornadus-t. The speed evs let it outrun one of the most important things it needs to outrun, base 70s without an investment (Skarmory comes to mind). Just clearing that up, and the pokemon you listed aren't much of a threat, since their attacks do minimal damage to Gothitelle with the current EV spread, being a 3 Hit Kill at best for the common sets. It just seems unnecessary, since there isn't many pokemon between 44 evs and 252 evs that you outspeed that would be a great threat(maybe breloom so he doesn't use spore?). But anyways, Ifeel his EVs are correct, bulky specs is better on something with only a 65 base speed.
  7. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
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    Gliscor can Toxic then Sub/Protect. Tentacruel can set up the TSpikes that you're trapping it to try and prevent. Same with Skarmory (nobody uses 0 speed Skarm) and Spikes. Breloom Spores and then Bullet Seeds. Jirachi tries to flinch hax you. If you're running a trapper to remove certain pokemon, you're doing that so you can remove them before they do whatever you're trying to stop, and speed lets you do that
  8. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
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    Sorry for not responding in efficient time! Here’s what I think about the responses so far.

    @ Choice Specs set
    Although I’m not entirely set on the order the Hidden Powers should be set in, I agree that Gothitelle’s Hidden Power would depend on which threats its teammates have trouble with specifically. If your other teammates can handle Heatran just fine, but have an extremely hard time hitting Ferrothorn (i.e. Kingdra, Latios, and Latias), go with HP Fire, while the same would apply when reversed (for SubCM, defensive CM, or otherwise Surf-less Latias). While HP Fighting is still a good option for hitting both of these threats, I’d rather not risk the extra damage done before they both go down. Besides, Gothitelle can always Trick, so the HP order has been revised for now. I’ve also mentioned Hidden Power Ice in the AC, and revised the EV spread so that Gothitelle can outrun 0 Spe Heatran, but risks much more bulk in the process. Feel free to continue arguing for the inclusion of Hidden Powers.

    @Calm Mind
    In response to the slashes in the third and fourth slashes, I’ll make a few claims. Gothitelle is already susceptible to Toxic and can be worn down with weak repeated attacks, which is why Rest, Sleep Talk-less or not, is a near-necessity for it. At the very least, it can stall out Seismic Toss from Blissey and Chansey, and can take meager damage from special attacks (Gastrodon’s Scald and Choice Thundurus-T’s HP Ice) once it has set up a couple of calm minds. Therefore, I’m not too eager to slash Reflect in the third slot, but again, feel free to argue this, since using Rest is in my mindset.

    @Dual Screens
    Done as requested.

    @Attacker
    Put Expert Belt in front of Leftovers for now, but I disagree on HP Fighting here. It does absolutely little to Ferrothorn and Heatran, and let alone Tyranitar, so you might as well trap the one your team has trouble with and be done with it fast. Is Fake Tears worth some consideration in the fourth slot?

    I haven’t actually tested out Choice Scarf and Attacker, so I’ll do so soon enough. Thanks, everyone.
  9. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    Note that while Choice Scarf can ordinarily outrun Tornadus-T by one Speed point, it only manages to tie if Gothitelle uses a Speed-lowering Hidden Power like Fighting or Fire.
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Signal Beam (from the move tutors) needs to be given a good AC mention on the offensive sets, if not a slash. As well as the obvious benefit of trapping and OHKOing Celebi with Specs (assuming it's not specially defensive), Psychic + Bug actually gives really good coverage in general; it hits Psychic- and Dark-types super effectively. It's almost always a better option than Shadow Ball too, as the only pokemon that shadow ball helps against are ghost-types and victini, which completely destroy Gothitelle anyway.

    Also I have to agree with Tab in that dual screens and support are rather questionable. I've never run into screens, and only one support variant which failed miserably against my defensive politoed. I do not think that it's difficult to set up screens at all with something fast, so I fail to see why I need to use Gothitelle to do it; you're only limiting the pokemon you can set up on. As for the support set, I feel that where it might work a CM set might just win the match for me. The best support it can supply is probably also screens lol.

    edit: Attacker set is also somewhat questionable, and could easily be combined with specs too. Speaking of the specs set, you don't need 104 Spe to outrun min base 70s. I believe it's for heatran, but you do very little to heatran without HP Ground so you might want to reconsider.
  11. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
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    agreeing with jc104 in that signal beam definitely needs to be slashed in on specs set because it's completely functional as the 4th slot and it removes one of the biggest threats to the success of rain offense, celebi.

    speaking of the choice specs set, what went wrong here? first of all, hidden power ice needs a huge mention and absolutely must be slashed in with hp fire. on the specs set, it ohkos 252 hp gliscor 100% of the time, eliminating one of the single biggest threats to the success of physical offense ever created. also, trick isn't absolutely necessary: there are actually many different options available here, the most important being grass knot, which not only eliminates the need to use hp fighting for tyranitar, but also ohkos standard quagsire and easily 2hkos defensive hippowdon. this is certainly worth mentioning, since again, defensive hippowdon is one of the biggest threats to the success of physical offense, which is generally what gothitelle supports. finally, the ev spread is grossly incorrect. the only spread worth using on specs goth is timid 252 spa 252 speed (which hits a speed stat of 251), because that not only outspeeds standard gliscor, but also standard celebi, breloom, rotom-w, and max speed unscarfed tyranitar. those are all extremely important benchmarks that specs goth needs to be able to overcome. using a bulky set means you lose out on all of the above speed advantages that you could otherwise have with the ev spread i suggested.

    finally, the order of these sets is wack. #1 should stay specs, but the rest are all jumbled up. #2 needs to be choice scarf, because not only is scarf the 2nd most used goth set, it's also the 2nd most viable. goth was made to be a choice user, hence the broad movepool and access to trick. the rest don't matter that much to me, but if i were to give it my best guess, i'd go attacker #3, calm mind #4, dual screens #5, support #6. those are listed in order of how good i think they are for the current metagame, not usage or anything like that.

    please consider the changes i suggested. thanks for taking the time to read this. have a nice day.
  12. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Gliscor and Hippowdon are comfortably 2HKOed by Psychic, which means that you can take either of them out without the need for coverage moves if necessary. Physically defensive Hippowdon is probably OHKOed by Grass Knot though. I suppose the question here is whether you want Gothitelle to be able to trap Gliscor and Hippowdon in addition to something else.

    The amount of Speed you want also depends quite a lot on what you are intending to trap. However, I'm afraid I have to agree that max Speed timid is usually the better option.

    Oh and Signal beam can be used over Thunderbolt, Hidden Power OR Trick to reasonable effect. None of Gothitelle's moves is absolutely essential to every team except its Psychic STAB.
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
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    i respectfully disagree, the only place for signal beam is in the ever-shifting 4th moveslot of gothitelle. it needs psychic for stab, it needs tbolt for coverage, and it needs hidden power because that's one of the only reasons to use gothitelle, so you can tailor its hidden power to your team's weaknesses. trick, grass knot, or whatever else you want to put in that last slot is optional, as is signal beam. it's more of a team-by-team basis than anything else. if you're weak to celebi, you're going to use signal beam. if you hate quagsire, you're going to use grass knot. same for trick, if you lose to the pink blobs. the first three moveslots on specs goth, i would argue, are vital to its success and should not be changed; the fourth one is where some sort of variation should come in.
  14. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    If you're talking about pure neutral coverage, signal beam is absolutely the number one option for Gothitelle. But it isn't really about neutral coverage, it's about hitting specific things. If you don't need to take out skarm, politoed and jellicent, then thunderbolt is almost useless. Similarly, on my rain team, hidden power turns out to be pretty useless too (since heatran is destroyed by the team, and HP Fire is a poor option, HP Fighting is just for that weak hit on Tyranitar). Just imagine that Signal Beam is HP Bug lol.
  15. Thorhammer

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    You mention TrickScarf in OO, but already list it as a regular set. Also, are weather moves really worth even a mention? I don't see any reason why you'd want Gothitelle to be the Pokemon using them, if you're using them at all.

    For counters, the fact that Thunderbolt is so common among Gothitelle's sets that have any coverage at all makes it not the best example, I think. Tyranitar, meanwhile, doesn't look emphasized enough, being able to shrug off most of Gothitelle's attacks, then trap and kill it with Pursuit. Seems to me that at least for combating Gothitelle's offensive sets, it's the best thing you could pack against it, ensuring that it won't get more than one kill.
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
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    i sincerely hope you're going to take my suggestions and slash in hp ice and signal beam on the specs set, they're too great of options to ignore. please think about it; hp ice is an ohko on 252 hp gliscor, signal beam is an ohko on defensive celebi and even does 79.21% - 94.06% to specially defensive celebi. these are both far superior options to hp fighting and hp ground, as i've already explained above. can't qc until this is done.
  17. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
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    Yo. Sorry for not responding on the thread, but I did talk it over on IRC, and so here’s the deal.
    • I’m making the spread on the Choice Specs set a standard Timid / max Speed / max Special Attack one for more simplicity and for outrunning Pokemon that aim to outrun max Speed Tyranitar. Gothitelle may also find it helpful to outspeed both Breloom and Gyarados. The bulky spread will go into the AC.
    • QC has graciously accepted the fact that the Choice Specs set will have major slashitis; the player will have to tailor Gothitelle based on his/her team. Additionally, I have also provided some coverage options in the last slot, if Trick isn’t needed (in which case Gothitelle requires Psyshock for obvious reasons).
    • The support set is scrapped entirely, since Gothitelle can easily break teams apart simply by using more elaborate methods, or simply attacking.
    • There will be no slashitis for the Scarf set, since Trick is really required on it, and Gothitelle needs all the options it can get.
    • The set order will be as follows: Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, Dual Screens, and Attacker.
    • I am currently still testing out the Attacker set, since there’s many possibilities for it. I can’t say I’m impressed or disappointed yet.

    Remember: nothing is completely set in stone yet.
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I'm afraid I'm still not happy. Most of the time, when I use Signal Beam, it's over Hidden Power, not Trick (although I do still sometimes use it over Trick). It probably ought to go in between HP Ice and HP Ground. The same might be true of GK too, though I don't have much experience with it.

    As I've said before, signal beam is actually one of the best neutral coverage options Goth can have. It's much better than the last option in the last slot.
  19. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    QC DECISION TIME

    Specs: Drop HP Ground / HP Fighting / Signal Beam from the set, move to AC. This means HP Ice / HP Fire in the third slot (in that order) and Trick as sole slash in the last slot.

    Scarf: Drop HP Ground. It's a terrible move to be locked into and just pretty bad in general.
  20. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
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    Kay.

    • Followed what SDS said
    • Removed the Attacker set since I haven't had much of a good experience with it (and I'd rather use ChoiceTrick or tank an attack)
    • Added HP Fire on Calm Mind Gothitelle for good reasons
    • I'm retesting Dual Screens to see if it really wants the set or not.

    Good day overall.
  21. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    "The spread uses the investment in Speed to outrun Timid Wobbuffet before it can Encore or Destiny Bond with Gothitelle."

    Bearing in mind that you can switch straight out of wobb, this is silly. Is this just you wanting to definitely outrun scizor, but not wanting to Speed creep?

    Also, I think I'm being outvoted on this one, by I want Signal Beam to be slashed with Hidden Power on the Specs set, because on rain teams it's clearly the superior option, and Gothitelle is actually really strong on rain.
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    AccidentalGreed (or anyone else), I urge you to test out the following support set:

    TWave - Flash - Charm - Light Screen / Taunt / Trick @ Lefties, Scarf

    It's pretty much the best supporter set for set-up sweepers out there. Couple this Gothitelle with Smash Pass, SD, Growth, or NP Sweeper and it's pretty much GG.
  23. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
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    I really don't think that's worth a set tbh. I'm not even sure it's worth an AC mention, although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there. Sure, it lets you get a guarenteed Shell Smash/SD/NP/whatever, but how many teams that use these really need to devote a team member to that? It's pretty much in direct competition with Wobbuffet and dual screeners, but I can't see any reason to use it over either. Both can guarentee a turn to safely set up in, but offer something extra: screeners make your sweeper much harder to revenge kill, while Wobb can Counter/Coat kill things. This literally just makes sure that something that would probably be switching out of whatever's coming in to set up anyway definately will switch out.

    In fact, if I wanted to usea Gothitelle for that role, I'd use dual screens on it. Which I also think isn't a great option.
  24. shrang

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    Hm, something that came into my mind that could be OO material. You know how Ring Target sounds like a really cool item for spinners if we can somehow get it onto those damn spinblockers? Yeah, Starmie can do it, but you would have to either take an attack to Trick the Ring Target onto Jellicent or predict its switch-in, which is generally more unreliable. However, with Gothitelle, you don't need to predict the spin-blocker switch-in since you have them trapped anyway. With the Ring Target in place, you can spin whenever you want, unless your opponent runs dual-Ghosts or something. I guess Sableye still can Taunt you before you do anything, but I guess that's another gimmick you could play with for Gothitelle.

    Ah Gothitelle. The possibilities are endless!
  25. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Could you not just kill the ghost? The ones that you can't kill, like Sableye and Chandelure, can prevent you tricking anyway by taunting/killing Goth.

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