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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Katakiri, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    Today’s the day for Gothitelle. As of August 9th Shadow Tag Gothitelle is (allegedly) released. She’s the first Shadow Tag Pokémon that can attack directly and set up as well as the first trapping Pokémon with access to Trick. Whatever she decides to do, with Shadow Tag Chandelure nowhere to be seen, she has no competition in any of the roles Shadow Tag graces her with.
    Typing: Psychic
    Base Stats: 70 HP / 55 Atk / 95 Def / 95 SpA / 110 SpD / 65 Spe
    Frisk / Shadow Tag

    Viable Moves
    Calm Mind
    Heal Bell
    Light Screen
    Magic Coat
    Sleep Talk
    Thunder Wave
    Trick Room

    Energy Ball
    Grass Knot
    Hidden Power
    Shadow Ball

    Discuss but let's avoid tiering discussion please.
  2. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

    Dec 21, 2009
    It will be great to trap physical defensive pokemon, like Giscor, Slowbro, Skarmory etc. and thus will be a good partner for Terrakion, Landorus, Lucario or even Sandslash.
    However i doubt its impact will be too great, it lacks resistances to be able to set-up on anything ( i honestly can't think of a Pokemon that it could set-up on in OU), has no recovery move, a poor offensive stab and very mediocre stats. It has kind of a 4mss, but thats just because there are really no outstanding moves.
    Out of pure theorymon the main set will likely be:
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    252 SpA/252 Spe/ 4 HP (you really need that speed to catch defensive Gliscor)
    Nature: Timid
    -Shadow Ball
    -Hidden Power Fire

    Taunt/Sub prevent status and either set-up+recovery and phazing or well a free sub. IMO taunt seems superior, since there are few Pokemon you can actually set-up a sub on (maybe some weaker scalds from Tenta or Jellicent if you adjust the EV spread since 110 SDef is actually quite good).
    Psychic is the obvious stab and Shadow Ball hits other psychic types for SE damage. Hidden Power is for Steel types especially Scizor, Forretress and Ferrothorn.
    You are hard walled by TTar and Hydreigon the only way to prevent this would be HP Fighting, but i doubt you even 3HKO TTar so you are dead meat anyway when it comes in and the possibility to prevent hydreigon from maybe creating a sub isn't worth the damage loss against most steel types.
  3. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I dont get cute, I get drop dead gorgeous
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 5, 2012
    I can see 'her' as an anti stall mon, trapping Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Amoonguss and then Magic Coating in the face. She also has Taunt, which also stops many hazard setters. She will also then probably be the best dual screener in the game, as if she comes in on a support pokemon, there's nothing stopping her. If she comes in on a scarfer locked into a weak move like HP Fighting, she can Torment them to death. However, I doubt she will have any offensive presence.
  4. deluge


    Sep 19, 2009
    As I said in another tier's thread, I'm liking Gothitelle's support movepool. She can trap weak attackers and set up anything she likes and guarantee that the next Pokemon comes in on the Poke she trapped. I think she'll be able to perform Wobb's role of creating setup opportunities for sweepers. Safeguard, Heal Bell, Screens, Trick, Trick Room, Thunder Wave, Charm, Fake Tears, Tickle, Taunt, Rain Dance (heck maybe even gimmicky Magic Room...bye scarfers) all can be useful in that role.
  5. Rackham


    Oct 17, 2010
    I think ST Gothitelle will be a boon to offensive teams, able to trap defensive/support pokemon and set up dual screens or try to eliminate them completely. Not entirely convinced this is OU material without recovery and that low speed, although I'm wary of making too many judgements before I've actually tested the pokemon.

    Dual Screener
    @Light Clay
    252 HP / 206 SpDef / 52 Spe
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    Calm Nature
    -Light Screen

    Enough Speed to outpace 8 Spe Skarmory and Stall-Breaker Jellicent. The rest in HP and SpDef.
  6. Boltaway


    Dec 11, 2011
    Personally, I don't think Gothy is quite up to the same revenging tasks that the unreleased ST Chandy is...her stats are just so differently tailored, but here would be my idea on how to make Gothitelle a counter to a lot of choiced pokes.

    Gothitelle @ Leftovers
    EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    - Substitute
    - Torment
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt

    Obviously, you generally want to bring this in on something choiced that doesn't threaten you, torment it, set up a sub, and watch it struggle every other turn as you fire off a Psychic or Thunderbolt.

    I think however, that Gothitelle's role as a support pokemon means that whatever set it carries, it's going to be very tailored to your team, which might aid in making it less predictable. At the same time, I think that Gothitelle is outclassed in the role of revenge killing by Magnezone, Dugtrio, Ditto, and Wobuffet. Something like a Dual Screens set seems like a good idea to me, but definitely not a SubCM set.

    Also, anybody find it weird that the only they release is a male?

    Aside from it being kind of creepy, does this mean no egg moves?
  7. 2sly4u


    Oct 19, 2010
    There's no way Gothitelle is the best Dual Screener in the game. The ability to trap and set up on Support pokemon is nice, but she still has big problems, such as being unable to set up reliably against more offensive teams (who may not even have a support pokemon) and susceptibility to Taunt. Bulkier Screeners, such as Bronzong, Cresslia, and Deoxys-D can do their job even against hyper offense, while fast, powerful support pokemon like Lati@s, Espeon, and Azelf are much less vulnerable to Taunt and gain free turns to set up Screens on the switches they force. Since Dual Screeners tend to have little use outside setting up Reflect and Light Screen, it's important that they can do that job reliably and Gothitelle can't.

    Many support pokemon have other perks over her as well. Cresslia and Latias have Lunar Dance/Healing Wish to give Wallbreakers a new lease on life and Latios has Memento, facilitating setup sweeps even further. Espeon and Xatu have Magic Bounce (and therefore immunity to Taunt), and most Dual Screeners have reliable recovery as well. Gothitelle's support movepool is pretty barren from a D.S. standpoint, so she doesn't have an advantage there either.
  8. deluge


    Sep 19, 2009
    Rest may be viable on her given that the greatest risk to sleeping (giving setup opportunities to dangerous threats) is nullified by Shadow Tag as long as Gothitelle chooses the right Pokemon to snooze against. Apart from just snoozing and waking up, she could also do (at the cost of two moveslots):

    ~Sleep Talk
    ~Heal Bell/ Whatever


    Gothitelle@Chesto Berry

    It'll be fun to experiment with anyway, to discover what's viable. She's the first ST Pokemon that isn't completely one-dimensional.
  9. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 2, 2007
    Seems pretty simple - Choice Specs or Choice Scarf
    with Psychic/Thunderbolt/HP Fire or Ice/Grass Knot or Shadow Ball

    Timid Specs can trap most Politoed (with the exception of Timid and Scarf) and deal up to 91% if 4/0. Thunderbolt also removes Skarmory, Gyarados, Jellicent, Starmie and Tornadus-T who is outran with Scarf. HP Ice OHKOs Gliscor and the other 4x weaks or you can use HP Fire for Ferrothorn. Last slot depends on what you want dead,

    With Scarf you're a bit like a Dugtrio with the ability to trap and kill a lot more things but still a bit weak. Specs can kill a lot of shit but is quite slow. Goth is reasonably bulky though so Specs might be better served by going 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 Spe or whatever.

    Ridiculous support pokemon but that's because Shadow Tag is a ridiculous ability.
  10. shrang

    shrang AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2009
    Yeah, Specs looks good, IMO. You can trap a lot of things and dent them severely, especially weather inducers, giving you an advantage in the weather war.

    Also something I've theorymoned:

    Gothitelle @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 SpD / 72 Spe
    Nature: Calm
    - Taunt
    - Torment
    - Substitute
    - Protect

    Say goodbye to your wall. =)
  11. NixHex

    NixHex FOUR months seizure free!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 6, 2009
    It appears that only male is released so egg moves are incompatible, but they're mostly worthless anyway:
    -Dark Pulse
    -Mean Look (lol)
    -Miracle Eye
    -Mirror Coat (Wobb says hi)

    Dark Pulse is the only one worth mentioning because it has the same coverage (and lack thereof) as Shadow Ball, a flinch chance, and she can hit Toxicroak with Psychic anyway. Other than that, she's not missing out on anything.
  12. superbadd


    Jun 26, 2012
    This is very exciting, uu volt-turn is gonna get a huge boon with its release. Annoying walls like amoongus and slowbro will be easier to take out. Along with spinners like blastoise and hitmontop. I'm preditcing a rise in HO in uu.
    Omg if this thing ever gets perish song... Wait, isn't dark pulse a tutor move, so wouldn't it be legal?
  13. honchkro13


    Jul 1, 2011

    strangely, no...
  14. Jukain

    Jukain ~.~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 25, 2011
    I'm looking foward to trying this out:

    Gothitelle @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power Fire

    It's for a sun team. The one thing I always found lacking in Dugtrio was against Politoed and Steel-types. Gothitelle can trap and deal with both all without being KOed instantaneously. Thunderbolt is for Politoed, Hidden Power Fire for Steel-types, and of course Psychic as a reliable STAB. 16 Spe EVs is enough to outspeed CB Scizor, which I find the only Speed benchmark worth hitting that doesn't take a large toll on Gothitelle's bulk.
  15. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2010
    I have to say, I for one am very excited about the number of possibilities Gothitelle provides. Asside from the standard revenge killing and trapping that all trappers provide, Gothitelle has an enormous support movepool that she can make use of. Trick Room, Rain Dance, Gravity, Screens, Taunt, Torment... with all these options Gothitelle can reliably fill an enormous number of support roles. I think that the ability to safely set up so many moves, along with the simple ability to trap and KO various new targets the other trappers cannot, should secure her a useful niche in OU for a long time to come.

    And honestly if any Pokemon should get Shadow Tag Gothitelle is up there. At least it won't be broken as hell like Chandelure is likely to be.


    Aug 9, 2007
    haha I've waited for almost 2 years for this release. Gothitelle has a lot of potential even more so, than other trappers since she can trap a larger number of pokemon, but when Chanderlure gets released I think she may get overshadowed as a offensive trappers.

    Gothitelle @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Rest
    - Reflect

    Take great care that all of your opponent's dark types are gone before you bring out this beauty. quadruple resists like Bronzong and Metagross would be problematic but you could might be able to stall them out. Ditto wouldn't be a pain since you could beat with reflect. you have many options for the last slot like Sleep talk, Thunderbolt and HP fighting. Psychock > Psychic because I don't think a +6 Psychic 2koes Chansey.You could go for a more offensive route to
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Thank you all guys!
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    Holy shit, shrang you are a genious! This set seems capable of killing any support poke that isn't faster and carries U-turn/status move, or 2 attacking moves. And even some pokes with 2 attacking moves can be stalled out (Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball and Power Whip for example), and then get struggled to death.

    This set is also able to revenge kill many choiced mons, that can't ohko after SR, which is great (any sun team would appreciate having the opposing choiced Terrakion / Lati@s / Hydreigon removed).

    Slow Volt-turners seem as the best partners for this set, as you wouldn't want to risk eating a Leech Seed / Toxic / WoW / T-Wave as you come in.

    Also Politoed / Ninetales support is nice too, because Gothitelle really needs the Lefties recovery.

    Finally what is the purpose of the 72 Speed evs?
  18. deluge


    Sep 19, 2009
    I'd slash Rest and Toxic with Substitute and Protect. It should be possible to stall out two turns of sleep when the foe is Tormented and Rest takes care of status. In fact, forget slashes, that's the set I'd test. Torment + Protect is evil against choiced mons though so if it isn't important to inflict status, protect is cool.
  19. dice

    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 24, 2012
    Gothitelle traps most of Sandslash/Stoutland & Breloom's checks and counters which is disgusting. It's probably not going to see much usage when the Shadow Tag hype calms down but its always going to be a bitch.
  20. topspin1617


    Dec 15, 2010
    So... does that listing mean the ability is actually available? Not sure how to tell, because under Gothitelle's page on the same site it still says the DW ability is "Unavailable".

    Pocket EDIT: http://www.serebii.net/events/dex/575.shtml - it's in the OP :/
  21. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Mar 17, 2012
    I played DW on Beta for a long time (basically OU but with all the unreleased mons) and the set I used for a long time back in the Excadrill metagame was a scarf Gothitelle to eliminate threats for my Exca-Terrak core so it could sweep. I would think it's still a very viable set in this metagame.

    [​IMG] @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) / Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Energy Ball

    Basically this thing removes any threats towards a Terrakion, Landorus, Conkeldurr, etc. sweep bar stuff like Forretress. Psychic is generic STAB for stuff, Thunderbolt hits Skarmory very hard and can revenge Jellicent under half if Modest (under ~40% if Timid). Hidden Power Ice picks off Gliscor, and sometimes other stuff like Landorus and unboosted Salamence/Dragonite. Energy Ball hits mainly Quagsire. The choice of Nature is up to you: Modest hits harder and grabs some nice KOs that Timid does not, such as guaranteed OHKOs on standard Gliscor and a chance at an OHKO on Skarmory after rocks. However, Gothitelle's pitiful Speed stat means that even at max with a Scarf, it only hits 343 Speed, meaning it doesn't get the ability to outspeed and revenge kill Base 108s (Terrakion), Base 110s (Gengar, Lati@s), and Base 115s (Starmie). With a Timid Nature, all the aforementioned 'mons are covered, as well as Base 120s (Dugtrio, Alakazam) and the Base 121 (Tornadus-T). However, there is a noticable lack in power.

    The drawback to this set (aside from trying to choose the better Nature for your team) is that it's very easily Pursuit trapped. Gothitelle is already weak to Pursuit, and with it being locked into a move, it's very simple for things like Tyranitar and Scizor to revenge kill it. However, there is a benefit: since this set sees a lot of use alongside Terrakion, it can come in on Tyranitar or Pursuit-locked Scizor with little to fear and set up freely.

    I hope you find success with this set in the future.
  22. shrang

    shrang AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2009
    72 Speed EVs speed creep most Skarmory and Politoed.
  23. kalamadude


    May 19, 2010
    Good God, like stall needs another thing to make it cry. I feel like full stall is just becoming less and less viable every day that goes by...
  24. Ames


    Mar 28, 2011
    I for one am not complaining; I find playing with and against stall infuriating and have been enjoying the decline that BW brought with it. Too bad Goth is one of the most retarded pokemon designs of all 5 generations.
  25. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

    Apr 12, 2012
    I don't think choice will really be effective at all as it would essentially be the same as chandelure without good stabs, offensive move pool or offensive stats.

    Chesto rest or at least sub with lefties will allow it to set up enough calm minds and maybe a trick room to be a decent threat. But that leaves it with only one attacking slot, so the choices are run trick room and be easily revenge killed by physical attackers or have terrible coverage. I dont see it having any impact at all in ou really

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