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Gothitelle

Discussion in 'Dragonspiral Tower' started by XenoIncognito, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. XenoIncognito

    XenoIncognito

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    183
    Ah, Gochiruzeru. One of the first Pokemon leaked before B/W's release, I had high anticipations for this goth-loli look alike. Design-wise, she's elegant looking. When I saw her base stats, I was initially disappointed, but after learning that she got Shadow Tag as a dream world ability, I thought about all of the great things she could do...

    This is a general discussion on the Pokémon, and not about what tier it belongs in.

    [​IMG]

    Typing
    Psychic

    Base Stats
    HP: 70
    Atk: 55
    Def: 95
    SpA: 95
    SpD: 110
    Spe: 65
    BST: 490


    Abilities:
    1) Frisk: When this Pokémon is switched in, the opponent's held item is displayed.

    Dream World:
    2) Shadow Tag: Enemy Pokémon cannot switch out unless they have the ability Shadow Tag.


    Notable moves are in Bold.

    Level Up Moves
    Show Hide
    Lv1: Pound
    Lv1: Confusion
    Lv1: Tickle
    Lv1: Fake Tears
    Lv3: Confusion
    Lv7: Tickle
    Lv10: Fake Tears
    Lv14: Doubleslap
    Lv16: Psybeam
    Lv19: Embargo
    Lv24: Faint Attack
    Lv25: [M473] Psycho Shock: Special Psychic PP: 10 Power: 80 / Accuracy: 100 Effect: Calculate's damage with the target's Def stat.
    Lv28: Flatter
    Lv31: Future Sight
    Lv34: Heal Block
    Lv39: Psychic
    Lv45: [M477] Telekinesis: Other Psychic PP: 15 Power: --- / Accuracy: --- Effect: Makes Target easier to hit for 3 turns.
    Lv54: Charm
    Lv59: [M478] Magic Room: Other Psychic PP: 10 Power: --- / Accuracy: --- Effect: Negates all held items for 5 turns.


    TM/HM Moves
    Show Hide
    TM03 - Psycho Shock
    TM04 - Calm Mind
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM12 - Taunt
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM16 - Light Screen
    TM17 - Protect
    TM18 - Rain Dance
    TM19 - Telekinesis
    TM20 - Safeguard
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM24 - Thunderbolt
    TM27 - Return
    TM29 - Psychic
    TM30 - Shadow Ball
    TM31 - Brick Break
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM33 - Reflect
    TM39 - Rock Tomb
    TM41 - Torment
    TM42 - Facade
    TM44 - Rest
    TM45 - Attract
    TM46 - Thief
    TM47 - Ankle Sweep
    TM48 - Troll
    TM53 - Energy Ball
    TM56 - Fling
    TM57 - Charge Beam
    TM63 - Embargo
    TM66 - Payback
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM70 - Flash
    TM73 - Thunder Wave
    TM77 - Psych Up
    TM80 - Rock Slide
    TM85 - Dream Eater
    TM86 - Grass Knot
    TM87 - Swagger
    TM90 - Substitute
    TM92 - Trick Room


    Egg Moves
    Show Hide
    Mirror Coat
    Uproar
    Miracle Eye
    Captivate
    Mean Look
    Dark Pulse


    Resistances and Weaknesses

    Resists:
    Fighting, Psychic

    Weaknesses:
    Bug, Dark, Ghost


    Pros
    1) Shadow Tag: Pretty much the only reason you'd use her over any other supportive psychic-type. Gochi is one of the only 3 current users of Shadow Tag, so you've got to abuse it. Being able to trap the enemy opens up a cornucopia of fun things Gochi can abuse.

    2) Decent bulk: 70/95/110 is nothing to scoff at, especially with the supportive role Gochi is meant to play. She's bulky enough on both sides to take a few hits.

    3) Great supportive movepool: Reflect, Light Screen, Trick Room, Magic Room, Taunt, and 3 debuffers (Tickle, Fake Tears, Charm) lets her screw around with whatever Pokemon she's got trapped. Too bad she doesn't learn Encore, or she could be Wobbuffet #2.

    4) Average special attack and movepool: She has good enough coverage on all fronts, and 95 base SpA + access to Calm Mind means she can hit things.


    Cons
    1) Below average speed: She speed ties with Sandslash, Kricketune and Banette. 'nuff said.

    2) Unimpressive besides her ability: Without Shadow Tag, Gochiruzeru is just another run-of-the-mill psychic-type. There's so much lost potential ability abuse from lacking Hypnosis and Trick, too.

    3) No reliable recovery: One of the few psychics lacking either Recover or Wish, she's really in a bind when it comes to walling things.


    Potential Sets

    Sadistic Debuffer
    Gochiruzeru @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~ Tickle / Charm / Captivate
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Rest / Torment
    ~ Psychic / Psycho Shock

    Well, she can pull the same kind of trick Wobbuffet does by tickling the opponent until it's too weak to do anything and then bring in a Pursuiter to finish it off. While the opponent is a sitting duck, you can take advantage and CM up, then finish it off when you hit +6. Rest is there as it's the only recovery move Gochiruzeru gets, and might be needed while she's setting up. Torment is there just to further annoy the enemy or potentially cripple it if it doesn't have another SE move to use against Gochiruzeru. As a last note, Psycho Shock would obviously be the better attack if you're using Tickle.


    Dual Screener

    Gochiruzeru @ Light Clay
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~ Reflect
    ~ Light Screen
    ~ Thunder Wave / Toxic
    ~ Psychic / Psycho Shock

    Gochiruzeru can do stuff Uxie only dreams about on a perfect setup: uninterruped dual screens while crippling the enemy with paralysis. Come in a choiced fighting type move, set up screens, T-Wave the sucker (bye bye scarf) and switch out again.


    Dedicated CM
    Gochiruzeru @ Life Orb
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Psychic / Psycho Shock
    ~ HP Fighting / Dark Pulse
    ~ Energy Ball / Thunderbolt

    Again, same idea. Come in on a choiced fighting attack or something else Gochi can resist, CM up, and pick the coverage of your choice. As we have yet to confirm the relationship between Egg Moves and the Dream World, Dark Pulse is slashed a secondary attack.


    Hard-Headed Staller
    Gochiruzeru @ Rugged Helmet
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~ Rest
    ~ Toxic
    ~ Tickle / Charm
    ~ Psychic / Psycho Shock

    Shadow Tag allows for uninterrupted stalling. This set is definitely a boon against physical attackers, as many physical attacks are contact moves. Again, lack of Encore sucks, but switching in to a choiced physical move is almost a guaranteed stall KO with Rugged Helmet's effect. As with before, using Psycho Shock with Tickle is obviously better.


    Set Up Support
    Gochiruzeru @ Leftovers/Damp Rock
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Relaxed (+Def, -Spe) or Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~ Trick Room / Rain Dance
    ~ Taunt
    ~ Tickle
    ~ Psychic / Psycho Shock

    This can easily take advantage of a slow wall like Blissey. Taunt it first, Tickle it until it's extremely vulnerable, then Trick Room or Rain Dance and switch out to a Pursuit user or sweeper that can get a free setup.


    Conclusion
    Gochiruzeru has a lot of interesting options with Shadow Tag, for sure. I'm sorta disappointed with how GF handled her movepool; not giving her a sleep move or recovery move makes something like Shadow Tag harder to use. Lastly, if I missed a potential viable set, feel free to reply.
  2. TwilightWings

    TwilightWings

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    Mar 5, 2009
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    About time someone else saw her usage. While Shandeera is better its most likely going to OU or beyond. But now we have a shadow tagger in the NU/UU section. I'd use her with dual screen and wish gardevoir (or just dual screens period) with this set.

    Item: Choice Scarf
    Nature: Timid
    Evs: Hp-42 SpAt-252 Spd-200
    -Psychic/Psycho Shock
    -Grass Knot/Energy Ball
    -Thunderbolt
    -Shadow Ball

    The moves are to hit as many pokemon hard as possible. The max SpAt is obvious while the speed is there so with the scarf she outruns all positive base 110's. The rest gets dumped into hp for more bulk. It only works with timid unfortunately. But I think this would make a decent scarf revenger.
  3. ShadowSpark

    ShadowSpark

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    Gochiruzeru gets Dream Eater and not a sleep inducing move? Clever...

    I have a gimmick set. I don't run calcs well, feel free to give an EV spread as you see fit.

    Item: Leftovers
    Nature: Calm - Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs:
    -Mirror Coat
    -Toxic
    -Energy Ball/ Shadow Ball
    -Psycho Shock/ Thunderbolt

    Alternatively if Dream World abilities aren't compatible with egg moves:
    Item: Leftovers
    Nature: Calm - Ability: Frisk
    EVs:
    -Mirror Coat
    -Toxic
    -Mean Look
    -Filler

    Where's the gimmck? You have something else Encore a non SE Special attack and Mirror Coat it to death. Alternatively, you can have Encored a Stat Up move, switch Gochi in, use Toxic, spam attacks and call it a day.
    I'm thinking of Shuckle as the user of Encore. Wrap disallows the opponent to switch. First you use Wrap to lock your opponent, then you use Encore on whatever they use (I've seen people use Swords Dance in the face of my Shuckle many times, it's like a tasty bait), and switch to Gochiruzeru do its job. If it runs Mean Look, do it first (not sure if Wrap wears of after the user switches). Then proceed with the correct move. If the Encored attack is physical, switch to an appropiate counter.

    Thoughts? I've never made a moveset from scratch before =P
  4. JSND

    JSND

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    i would use shanderaa over her. yes it has a badder bulk but it can kill steel types,sweep,and has taunt and torment.
  5. yiran

    yiran

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    shanderaa would probably be a higher tier than her anyways.
  6. GREEN00

    GREEN00

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    Show Hide
    Shadow Tag on the Gochiruzeru and Shanderaa evolution lines will definitely end up banned. I know it's rule breaking to say this, but oh well. Shanderaa's reasons for Shadow Tag being overpowered are obvious. Gochiruzeru has too much room to abuse setup opportunities in the new UU/NU. Gochiruzeru will probably end up in NU.
  7. XenoIncognito

    XenoIncognito

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    Again, predicting what may or may not be banned isn't contributing to the discussion at this point. The metagame hasn't even begun to form yet, so we don't know where either of Gochiruzeru's or Shanderaa's tiers will be or what effect their ability will have on the metagame.
  8. NDenizen

    NDenizen

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    Aug 25, 2010
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    You seem to be missing the intended point of Gothiruzelle. You use Frisk to check the foe's item, and then Magic Room to disable its use. This effect lasts on the field for five turns. She's intended as the perfect item nerfer.

    Admittedly, not the best combo competitively, or the best pokemon to utilise the strategy - as you're just taking away Life Orb recoil or Choice Item restriction, amongst other things. It's clearly an ability created more for Doubles/Triples.

    However, I can imagine some smart people could take advantage of Magic Room and really mess up opponents who rely on Items to use their strategies. It also gives your own team the chance for deception - bring in a Choiced pokemon in Magic Room, and you get a bit of breathing space, then when Magic Room fades you decide on your attack to consistently launch with. People might not ever see that extra boost in power or speed coming and you could really tear stuff down. Delaying the time an item kicks in could really help, especially if you're looking for speed boosts in a metagame where Dragons can tear each other down.
  9. Shimrit As

    Shimrit As

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    Sorry, but why waste a good ability and a precious moveslot on this gimmicky and unreliable strategy? Why can't you use Knock Off to scout and PERMANENTLY remove your opponent's item instead of sacrificing Shadow Tag for Frisk and one of its coverage moves for Magic Room?
  10. XenoIncognito

    XenoIncognito

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    Um, great, but what exactly is she gonna do after that? Frisk is only mildly helpful at best and useless at worst in terms of competitive viability. For example, you come in on a choiced Close Combat from, say, Heracross. If you had Shadow Tag, that's basically a free kill for you. But you come in and use Frisk. Then Magic Room. Great. Either Heracross will stay in and fuck you up with Megahorn, or switch out to a taunter or something else that doesn't care about having its items disabled.

    Really, Magic Room is a neat move but considering its duration and the fact that there are tons of Pokemon that don't need their items to kill Gochiruzeru, it's a horrible waste to not use Shadow Tag in almost all situations. And I mean, if you going to use a Frisker, at least use Banette. It can actually do something with the information gained from Frisk (Tricking a band or something) or get rid of the item altogether (Knock Off).


    Off-topic: Just added a new potential set.
  11. TwilightWings

    TwilightWings

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    I think she would be beter off with Shadow tag as well. Frisk is just a bit too gimmicky for my taste. I would prefer to have the ability to keep working instead of one with one time use.
  12. Kristy Haruka

    Kristy Haruka

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    I don't understand how she's so much worse than Shanderaa. Sure, she can't kill as many things, but Shadow Tag is still an extremely helpful ability that will make her at least UU. If she can come in on a Pokemon that can't do anything to her, she could just set up in their face and get a free KO.
  13. phoenixwright7

    phoenixwright7

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    Blah, Blah, Blah Shadow Tag is awesome Blah, Blah, Blah... How 'bout that there Frisk?

    Gothic Lead

    Ability: Frisk
    Item: Leftovers
    Nature and EVs: can't be determined until we know how UU/NU will change and rather or not she'll even end up in UU

    -Taunt
    -Thunder Wave/Toxic
    - Psycho Shock/Psychic/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball
    - Filler

    It's a shame she doesn't get Trick <_< Anyways, depending on what happens to UU, this could actually be a fairly decent Lead set. Frisk'll tell you what exactly the opposing lead is gonna do, which is most useful against Uxie that can run a 1000 or so different lead sets (actually, I think it's only 4, but that's still alot. ) If nothing really changes, then you'll probably want to EV her so that she can out run Bulky Uxie leads and taunt them, at which you can act accordingly. Thunder Wave can screw over switch ins and faster offensive leads like scarf Moltres (I'm sure she could be made to survive a Fire Blast, though I could be wrong ) While Toxic can further screw over slow Bulky leads. The third slot goes to an attacking move, and the final slot can be tailored to what you need, rather it be another support move or an attacking move, or protect to scout and stop Fake Out leads from screwing you.

    Depending on what happens, this set might not even be useful, and the most used sets will probably be ones that utilize Shadow Tag. However, depending on how things go, this set could still be fairly useful. By the way, in case your wondering, you'd use her over Banette 'cause she's bulkier, basically. Wasn't there someone else who could run a similar set introduced this gen?
  14. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
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    Gochiruzeru @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~ Reflect
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Rest
    ~ Hidden Power [Dragon]

    This shit is broken. Come in on any relatively weak special attack, or hell a strong one too (70 HP / 110 SpD is nothing to scoff at), set up your 6 Calm Minds, rest up... put a Reflect on and then go to town with HP Dragon... it's not the strongest thing ever, but it's neutral against everything, and it's plenty strong against everything with 95 SpA and +6.
  15. GravityZero

    GravityZero

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    Kinda like CM/HP Dragon Spinda... except it doesn't suck.
  16. Lord Alchemy

    Lord Alchemy

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    Posted this in the Shadow Tag topic, figured I should pasta this here:

    Skimmed all the pages and didn't notice anyone pointing this out:

    Gochiruzera@Leftovers/Lum Berry
    Jolly
    252 HP / 252 Speed / 6 Def
    Shadowtag
    -Tickle
    -Substitute/Safeguard
    -Safeguard/Torment
    -Rest

    EV spread is rough, needs speed investment to be tweaked so that it out speeds all walls you want free kills on, rest should be invested in making it bulkier.

    Switch in on a wall, Substitute/Safeguard to prevent status if you're worried and tickle until the wall is in OHKO range of your pursuit user on the bench. This is what made Wobbuffet so broken, and it looks like Gochiruzera can manage this just as well. It does have different utility usage though while Wobb would revenge kill choice users.

    Using Safeguard depends on if you're worried about your pursuit user getting status'd when you switch it in after the Tickles. You can also run Light Clay and Reflect/Light Screen in the last two slots so you can pass defensive boosts to your pursuit user to attempt to set up after killing the wall (Tickle, Reflect, Light Screen, switch to T-Tar, Pursuit kill, Dragon Dance?).

    Torment also screws with walls trying to chip you down while you tickle them, and Rest/Lum is to give you a second wall kill attempt.

    This seems like a very viable set to run in Gen 4, not sure how it will pan out in Gen 5. My money is on the damage output in Gen 5 making this strategy obsolete, but its worth keeping an eye on.
  17. Celest

    Celest

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    I get the feeling Magic Room is more meant for doubles/Triples/Rotation battles, where it could possibly cripple multiple enemies. Extremely gimmicky.

    But seriously, nobody ever thought of a set like this yet?

    CelestialGochi@Leftovers
    Nature: Calm(+SpDef/-Atk)
    EVs: 252 Hp/252 Def/4 SpDef
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Moves:
    ~ Torment
    ~ Substitute/Calm Mind
    ~ Protect
    ~ Psycho Shock/Psychic/Taunt/Toxic/Whatever the hell it wants

    Welcome to the most annoying set this pokemon can make. If you can get in on a Choiced Pokemon, they're SCREWED. Torment that sucker, and every other attack, they will be forced to struggle. Protect when they don't. Last slot really depends on you.
    ~ Taunt will force them to attack you, limiting their ability to heal(if they can).
    ~ Psychic/Psycho Shock hurts. Simple enough. Though you'd probably get more use out of...
    ~Toxic. Lose more and more HP with every turn. Struggle, Protected, GG dawg.

    Now. It's possible that you could just scratch Sub for Calm Mind on something that doesn't hurt you, but really, even with +6 Calm Mind, this thing is waaay to goddamn slow to be sweepin. I'd stick with what's simple. Torment. Sub. Protect. Toxic. [​IMG]

    Someone, tell me. What's stopping this from becoming Wobbutwo? Barring no Counters or massive HP. shandeera gets shadow tag, but that's an offensive pokemon. It won't be trapping like this, just grabbing things it can counter.
  18. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Shed Shell and Erufuun aren't going to stop Shadow Tag Pokemon. For one, Shed Shell comes with the heavy opportunity cost of using a more helpful item, especially for offensive Pokemon. I'm not putting Shed Shell on my Lucario to stop Shanderaa, and I'm not putting Shed Shell on Roopushin just to avoid facing down Gochiruzeru. If either one shows up, they'll just have to take one for the team.

    I don't think Gochiruzeru will prove to be a massive problem. It's mediocre stats across the board severely dampen its ability to pose a tangible threat to anything.

    EDIT: Oh wait, it gets Tickle. Fuck that. >_>
  19. Galblade

    Galblade

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    Tickle + CM + Psycho Shock is definately a deady combo. Just run max Def and HP to survive the opponent before it's crippled and when it's severly weakened, CM up. Rest would probably be the best move for the last slot.
  20. Celest

    Celest

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    I wouldn't call 70/95/110 mediocre.
  21. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    I misread the special defense as base 95. I don't even recall it having base 110 in anything. >_>

    More importantly, I've been testing this shit out on PO and it's just amazing how much this thing reminds me of Wobbuffet...it doesn't have Counter, but it does have everything else you could ever want in a trapper. We have Taunt, Toxic, CM, Mirror Coat, Reflect, decent defenses etc...I don't think there's one set this chick can run that isn't broken. Trap a wall, get set up on, and lose it guaranteed, trap anything weak to its moves, lose it guaranteed. Really, wtf.

    I'd even go so far as to say it's better than Shandera ATM, since supporting is way more versatile than flat out offense. Also, good luck killing me with Reflect and +6 CM, Ttar.

    Right now, I'm 90% convinced this thing is broken, but the other 10% says that our more useful tanks might find some way to circumvent this. We've got phazing, Leech Seeding, Toxic...all of which can be Taunted.

    ....

    Yeah, make that 100%. Gochiruzeru is broken.
  22. Celest

    Celest

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    That's kinda why I nicknamed it Wobbutwo. However, I'm sure it'll be found OU/UU in this Gen, especially with all the crazy shit that's be introduced. Shadow Tag will ensure it's NEVER NU.

    BTW, what set have you been running?
  23. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Psychic/Taunt/Mirror Coat/Tickle

    Pair it with a Pursuiter or something and there's nothing any wall can do about it. If you want to run stall, everything needs Shed Shell lol.
  24. Celest

    Celest

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    Tickle... The horror.
  25. Machi

    Machi

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    Isn't psycho-shock potentially better on that set given that you also lower their defense with tickle?

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