Metagame Gothlett Suspect Discussion thread

[Akkeshi]

Diglett : 20 Speed on its own so faster than any not scarfed mon in the tier. Has a great movepool in memento / sr / edgequake / sucker / beat up (use w/e move u want). It also has a decent atk and w/ LO it hits like a truck or w/ the sash it's annoying as hell to remove it. It'll like always remove one mon or allow another one to setup. It may be limited to certain task and won't 6-0 your team, it'll create a hole in it which is huge enough to let other things set up so i'll vote to ban it

It's not the fastest mon in the tier, voltorb is tied but I'm nitpicking there and voltorb is kinda shite. I would argue that it has a pretty limited movepool being honest. It's either used as guaranteed utility (sash variant with sr) or as something to prevent people from spamming volt switch with magnets/chinch, which is the more offensive option. Yes, it can make a hole in your team if you let it, but so can gastly, abra, skrelp, pawniard and numerous other offensive threats. I really don't think you've thought about the tier as a whole enough here, there are so many shell smash/belly drum/dragon dance pokemon in the tier that don't need diglett to setup and even then these things are often manageable. I think the outcome of this suspect will be an overwhelming majority "no ban" for both but I do suggest you re-consider.

 

[Fiend]

Voltorb speed ties with Diglett, actually... Have you played enough of the tier to try and come in with an authoritarian tone? I think with maybe 50 games you should know about the 20 speed tier.

 

[TruSwagblu]

Voltorb speed ties with Diglett, actually... Have you played enough of the tier to try and come in with an authoritarian tone? I think with maybe 50 games you should know about the 20 speed tier.

I believe he was referring to the fact that Voltorb has 5 more base speed than Diglett, which as he said was nitpicking- as that difference is almost meaningless.

But I'm also not him so I don't know for sure

Edit: You're talking to akkeshi right?
Edit: ok you were

 

[Akkeshi]

Voltorb speed ties with Diglett, actually... Have you played enough of the tier to try and come in with an authoritarian tone? I think with maybe 50 games you should know about the 20 speed tier.

Base speed friend :) I didn't mean to offend you over the Pokemon, I hope I haven't hurt your feelings there haha. hope the edit mends any open wounds.

 

[Fiend]

Base speed friend :) I didn't mean to offend you over the Pokemon, I hope I haven't hurt your feelings there haha. hope the edit mends any open wounds.

If you think I get offended over words that aren't even spoken to me on a pokemon site, I really find that both funny and sad. Mostly since I cannot conceive how you could have said anything offensive, let alone to me personally, and you're being extremely snarky over having making what is a moot point, if you can even call it a point since it's impact on the overall discussion is literally nonexistent. While not explicitly stated, he clearly meant Diglett is the fastest relevant pokemon in LC, unless you count Elekid as relevant and if you don't neither is Voltorb.

You seem to have a fascination with ignoring the other side's points; Diglett is a trapper which means that it can be literally impossible to prevent Diglett from making a hole in your team. While making a hole is something that wallbreakers do, generally you can choose what pokemon to fodder to the wallbreaker and you may even have a counter if you're running balance; Diglett does not provide such for the opponent liberties, and because of such you cannot dismiss it as simply another wallbreaker (wallbreaker with barely average attack, lgi) or even really as something with that has immediate counterplay. And of the many, many sweepers in the tier, a very small few actually dislike Diglett support (only Drilbur, Larvitar, arguably Scraggy, Axew, Dratini, and really subpar things like Chespin, Clamperl, and Zorua really fit here) so your point that there is an overwhelming amount of sweepers that don't utilize Diglett in such a fashion you are quite possibly worse off for not using it. I do realize you say that there are many that don't need Diglett, but the only sweeper that really needs Diglett is Ziggy, and that's also one of the only sweepers you have to build around entirely in almost every instance of its use.

Overall you seem needlessly sassy, and at least somewhat out of the loop despite criticizing someone else's metagame knowledge. They actually tell you not to be sassy or criticize the other person this when arguing or discussing as if you are even slightly wrong, it really presents you in a foolish light. And you have been at least slightly wrong, and this is coming from someone who also believes Diglett should not be banned.

 

[Akkeshi]

Overall you seem needlessly sassy, and at least somewhat out of the loop despite criticizing someone else's metagame knowledge. They actually tell you not to be sassy or criticize the other person this when arguing or discussing as if you are even slightly wrong, it really presents you in a foolish light. And you have been at least slightly wrong, and this is coming from someone who also believes Diglett should not be banned.

Don't really want to be infracted for not keeping this to PM's but yes I agree! I will definitely take these points into consideration when casting my vote you make a really solid argument, pls no name calling/accusations though, it's only a game and the point of suspect discussions is to try and make the other persons argument sound illegitimate. I appreciate the time you took out of your day to write this essay for me and look forward to further suspect discussions with you. - Still leaning towards no ban though!

 

[gali]

It's not the fastest mon in the tier, voltorb is tied but I'm nitpicking there and voltorb is kinda shite. I would argue that it has a pretty limited movepool being honest. It's either used as guaranteed utility (sash variant with sr) or as something to prevent people from spamming volt switch with magnets/chinch, which is the more offensive option. Yes, it can make a hole in your team if you let it, but so can gastly, abra, skrelp, pawniard and numerous other offensive threats. I really don't think you've thought about the tier as a whole enough here, there are so many shell smash/belly drum/dragon dance pokemon in the tier that don't need diglett to setup and even then these things are often manageable. I think the outcome of this suspect will be an overwhelming majority "no ban" for both but I do suggest you re-consider.

I really think you're underselling Diglett's trapping capability. It doesn't just deter clicking Volt Switch. a well-played Diglett will systematically dismantle the opponents team by rewarding mindlessly clicking Knock Off and U-Turn.

Here are some things that Standard (eq/rs/sucker/sub) LO Diglett can trap besides the obvious Fire/Electric/Poison/Rock/Steel types:
-Mienfoo (knock off+25% prior damage=dead)
-Timburr (super easy to wear down, eq does 66% min to evioless while mach doesnt come close to koing)
-Porygon (this is admittedly a less likely scenario since pory doesnt like switching in on most things that carry koff, but eq still does 2/3rds which it is likely to be at since pory likes to switch into a ton of stuff)
-Drilbur (you 2hko with evio and its' super easy to wear down)
-Ferroseed (evioless takes just over 50% but this thing gets worn down SUPER easily)
-Snubbull (foo u-turn does enough to let dig ohko the bj set)
-Staryu (easy to wear down, any knock off does enough to put it into kill range)
-Gothita (sucker ohkoes)

That's just s through a-. With the sole exception of Spritzee, if you let any mon take a knock off while diglett is on the opposing team, you risk having it removed from the game entirely. There is little to no counterplay to dig, as your check to pawn/fletch/timburr/shellder/snivy/any other sweeper because your opponent mindlessly clicked u-turn. Using diglett is almost no risk and almost all reward. How is this not broken?

 

[boo836]

I pretty much agree with tahu here, but would like to elaborate that just because you can't switch, it doesn't mean that there's no counterplay available. Beating trap teams requires you to gain momentum off the exposed trapper. HOWEVER, Diglett pretty much ruins that if it runs Memento. As it stands, Dig's best set imo is Eq/Sucker or Rick Slide/sub/memento

 

[Celestavian]

Rick Slide

Hide

If Diglett could do that I think we would have quickbanned it already!

In all seriousness, it's not Memento that gives Diglett less counterplay than Gothita, it's the ability to switch moves that does it. If Diglett traps your Abra with Beat Up, you can't just send in Stunky or Houndour on it and use Pursuit to get rid of it. Nor can you set up your Shellder on it after losing your Larvesta to Rock Slide for fear of Memento, unless you know it doesn't have it. Gothita's ability to trap and remove a threat is balanced by knowing its exact move next turn should it stay in, while Diglett does not have this problem. Considering the non-viability of Shed Shell and the fact that the majority of Pursuit users are too afraid of EQ to try and Pursuit it, there is little counterplay left besides to "git gud" and not be trapped. The best way to beat it is to use a Scarfer that is not Sucker Punch weak and KO it, or to use something like Timburr that can force it out while not taking much damage from Diglett's attacks and not minding Memento a whole lot since it can beat common sweepers such as Zigzagoon, Scraggy, or Tirtouga after a Memento.

 

[Berks]

Ive been thinking about this a lot, and i wanna say that counterplay to trappers extends even farther than just not switching in or using a Pursuit Mon. There are several viable steps that can be taken from team preview and even all the way back in team building that can help prevent trappers from demolishing your team. This isn't gonna be your everyday "well, just don't use Ponyta" post, but rather a "use Flame Charge Ponyta" post (this being an obvious extreme).

Like for any other threat, it is possible to make use of lures or other such minor changes to help mitigate the threat trappers pose to your team. Flame Charge Ponyta is obviously an exaggeration of this, but if you're only worried about checking Fights and Pawn and don't wanna get demolished by Diglett, its an option! However, there exist several more viable and less... odd options to bypass trappers.

The most viable way to get past the two trappers is to increase your own mon's speed, via Choice Scarf or a move like Agility. This is mostly derived from the fact that, well, its not the abilities that are "broken" even potentially, as we arent suspecting Trapinch. This is mostly because Speed, from my experience, is the most important stat in Little Cup (this in itself derives from Speed ties and the inherent fraility of involved mons). Pokémon like Chinchou, Larvesta, Pawniard, and Mienfoo can all viably run Scarves to mitigate their weakness to either trapper. On the other hand, Pokémon like Cranidos and Pawniard are huge threats when they make use of moves like Rock Polish.

There are also a few interesting moveset tweaks some mons can use that, while perhaps not as viable as other options, can help remove trappers. Sucker Punch Croagunk is perhaps the best example of this, as it can OHKO gothita. There are others, but they're just slightly harder to justify.

The only reason I would suggest running jazz like this is because they are, in effect, just as viable as other lures, (if not moreso: trapper users generally assume moreso than others that trappers will be successful, so luring them could seriously screw with a team, and the two good trappers are super frail) in that it allows you to deal with problem mons and can even turn the game into a 5-6 scenario.

Obviously the extent to which I've described this is a bit of an exaggeration, but the preparation for trappers is like any other threat: your team should have a way to take care of them, in one way or another, via lures, backup checks, or other preparations.

That's my idea, anyway

 

[boo836]

I'm curious as to what Pursuit user beats Diglett. Houndour, Stunky, and Pawniard are basically caught up in a mindgame where they have to deal with greater risk. As anyone who tries sending Pawn on Sub Gastly can tell you, that game rarely ends well.

That said, I certainly agree that there are ways to avoid being trapped. However, if we're going to use that argument, we ought to ask whether or not it's healthy for the meta if sets like BJ chou aren't all that viable due to the presence of trappers. It seems like a lot to account for to deal with only two Pokemon lol

 

[Heysup]

The Pursuit argument is so far-fetched and does not actually matter. It is likely a mind game and it is not entirely relevant or required to disprove Diglett's brokeness; lets focus on the real issue. Diglett is weak you do NOT need to trap it. It can trap your Pokemon, if you're not bad / get horribly outplayed, basically only after it does its job and then use something ELSE, that hits harder than Diglett and tanks a hit (read: a fuckload of mons) to take momentum back or worst case scenario, it Memento's you and you just switch out (again, if you're not an idiot you didn't switch like porygon w/o Thunder Wave into Diglett and then get Memento'd for Ziggy to set up and you ALSO happened to have given up your counter).

I think if we ban Diglett it shows lack of effort or adaptation and lack of effort can be mistaken, very easily, for lack of seriousness. If we come off as not taking ourselves seriously what do you think the TDs will think for SPL inclusion? (not necessarily think it, but have the appearance that we think it)

 

[Celestavian]

You act as if taking momentum back is the end-all-be-all and that taking it back after forcing out Diglett means you've won. By the time you've forced it out, Diglett has KOed a member of your team. You can force Diglett out, or even KO it, but that doesn't resurrect your fallen team member. If whatever Diglett took out was more important than Diglett itself, then you lost that trade regardless of what momentum you have, unless we're talking about a real late-game situation which isn't really where Diglett gets the majority of its KOes. What makes this a problem for Diglett and not Gothita is that you don't get the free turn you would normally get if Scarf Gothita got a KO with Psychic or Thunderbolt or something and now you have a turn to set up with a resist or force a bad switch. The fact that Diglett can pick and choose its battles and then not care so much if it gets forced out afterwards or is facing down a possible set-up sweeper is a problem, one that is not alleviated by "taking back momentum".

I'd also like for you not to project your own views on a possible Diglett ban onto the TDs. I would certainly agree with you if we were talking about the previous Baton Pass suspect (or worse, another one), but trapping isn't exactly something weird or stupid to suspect. Plenty of other tiers have suspected trapping in some way, either by targeting specific abusers such as DPP Wobba or the ability as a whole. Before you shout "stop comparing LC 2 other teirs its differnt!!!!!!" trapping abilities aren't being suspected for being broken in most cases, which would indeed apply to a single tier, but instead because they are considered "uncompetitive" which would apply to any singles tier that has a trapper that isn't garbage. Diglett existing is nothing new, and the FletchDig combination in particular has been known to be effective for a while, so I don't see where you are getting "lack of adaptation" from.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Oh well, after playing over like 50 games with Diglett in the suspect thread, I've seen that most people simply care to be able to handle anyhow Diglett. Although I did get surprised by some teams that actually used great lures for Diglett, most were just running the same things over and over. Yet we've playing the same metagame for such a long time and people only now go and whine about Diglett? If there is any whining by new players though, because, as pointed out here, I didn't see it. LCPL replays just show that, at high level of playing, Diglett doesn't offer much of an unfsir advantage to its user. In the ladder matches I played, I usually get to KO 3 Pokemon with Diglett every game. In the LCPL replays from OP's post, sometimes it doesn't do it even once! I mean look at this one. Diglett simply didn't do jack, while we can note even from this replay people in this enviromment actually try to be more creative, with things such as Taunt Pawniard. But you don't even need to get creative to the point of Flamengo Charge Ponyta, in many games it is possible to get past trapper's menace by being unorthodox with plays, of just abusing from VoltSwitch. If Diglett is wrecking through is basically, as many here wisely noted, due not to giving a shit, running the same things over and over and expecting to get new results, the lack of new ideas and the preference of cookie cutter team over underrated yet effective options. This famous quote from a famous person confirm it: Is insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[Heysup]

You act as if taking momentum back is the end-all-be-all and that taking it back after forcing out Diglett means you've won. By the time you've forced it out, Diglett has KOed a member of your team. You can force Diglett out, or even KO it, but that doesn't resurrect your fallen team member. If whatever Diglett took out was more important than Diglett itself, then you lost that trade regardless of what momentum you have, unless we're talking about a real late-game situation which isn't really where Diglett gets the majority of its KOes. What makes this a problem for Diglett and not Gothita is that you don't get the free turn you would normally get if Scarf Gothita got a KO with Psychic or Thunderbolt or something and now you have a turn to set up with a resist or force a bad switch. The fact that Diglett can pick and choose its battles and then not care so much if it gets forced out afterwards or is facing down a possible set-up sweeper is a problem, one that is not alleviated by "taking back momentum".

I think this is a serious logical fallacy. The most common way for Diglett to get in is to revenge kill. There are other options (like slow-turn, but it's not like that's hard to play around until Diglett is gone, just switch in your own Mienfoo into your opponent's Mienfoo instead of switching in your Larvesta) but they are not, at least in my experience, more common than sacrificing. So you either play really well and get rewarded OR you are down a Pokemon to get Diglett in. Then your opponent sends in, like, your own Mienfoo or Timburr. Both of which are VERY capable of taking something out in response to Diglett. There's Snivy who can destroy many teams with just one well-timed Glare on a Ponyta - letting it sweep next time. There's, of course, the easy set-up of Shell Smash Tirtouga or Shellder.

And you really said it yourself, Diglett taking out something more important than itself? Sorry but if a Pokemon is broken, how can it not be the most important Pokemon on a team. I think it is very telling that Diglett fainting does not strongly impact the result - a team without Diglett and a team that's down a Pokemon and 5-5 should have a significant difference.

I'd also like for you not to project your own views on a possible Diglett ban onto the TDs. I would certainly agree with you if we were talking about the previous Baton Pass suspect (or worse, another one), but trapping isn't exactly something weird or stupid to suspect. Plenty of other tiers have suspected trapping in some way, either by targeting specific abusers such as DPP Wobba or the ability as a whole. Before you shout "stop comparing LC 2 other teirs its differnt!!!!!!" trapping abilities aren't being suspected for being broken in most cases, which would indeed apply to a single tier, but instead because they are considered "uncompetitive" which would apply to any singles tier that has a trapper that isn't garbage. Diglett existing is nothing new, and the FletchDig combination in particular has been known to be effective for a while, so I don't see where you are getting "lack of adaptation" from.

I think I've been around too long for you to think that I don't have enough experience to understand TDs' thoughts on LC and its seriousness.

Lack of adaptation refers to people not actually exploring other options to counter threats besides BJuice Chinchou, Ponyta, Larvesta, etc. There's a shit load of other Pokemon, and it's been said a few times, that while they are not as "easy" to throw on a team, they do the jobs the other Pokemon do. Just because something isn't easy to deal with and makes the game harder does NOT make it uncompetitive. I would actually suggest the opposite, but that's just my "own view".

 

[blarajan]

I think this is a serious logical fallacy. The most common way for Diglett to get in is to revenge kill. There are other options (like slow-turn, but it's not like that's hard to play around until Diglett is gone, just switch in your own Mienfoo into your opponent's Mienfoo instead of switching in your Larvesta) but they are not, at least in my experience, more common than sacrificing. So you either play really well and get rewarded OR you are down a Pokemon to get Diglett in. Then your opponent sends in, like, your own Mienfoo or Timburr. Both of which are VERY capable of taking something out in response to Diglett. There's Snivy who can destroy many teams with just one well-timed Glare on a Ponyta - letting it sweep next time. There's, of course, the easy set-up of Shell Smash Tirtouga or Shellder.

And you really said it yourself, Diglett taking out something more important than itself? Sorry but if a Pokemon is broken, how can it not be the most important Pokemon on a team. I think it is very telling that Diglett fainting does not strongly impact the result - a team without Diglett and a team that's down a Pokemon and 5-5 should have a significant difference.

This is stupid. Diglett does not matter; its importance every game is equal to the sum of the values of all of the Pokemon it has to trap for you to win with your other Pokemon. If your opponent's team has a Ponyta as its Calm Mind Spritzee counter as was mentioned previously, and removing Ponyta from the game allows you to win with that Spritzee, Diglett's value is equal to removing Ponyta. If your opponent's team has both a Skrelp and an Abra as the only Pokemon preventing you from sweeping with Choice Scarf Mienfoo, then Diglett's value is removing Skrelp and removing Abra's Focus Sash. If your opponent's team has absolutely no answers to Carvanha, then Diglett has no inherent value. I picked Pokemon and examples abitrarily, but essentially, all Diglett has to do to earn its keep is help your other Pokemon win. It by itself does not have to do anything. I don't care if I lose all five of my Pokemon trying to get Diglett to trap the correct Pokemon if my sixth can win. It doesn't matter how many Pokemon are on your team at the end of the battle as long as your opponent's faint first.

ps: though this suspect happened because I complained a lot, I actually did not have enough time to qualify to vote (curses LSAT preparation). Please fight the good fight for me and vote to ban the fucking thing.

 

[Heysup]

This is stupid. Diglett does not matter; its importance every game is equal to the sum of the values of all of the Pokemon it has to trap for you to win with your other Pokemon.

<snip>

It by itself does not have to do anything. I don't care if I lose all five of my Pokemon trying to get Diglett to trap the correct Pokemon if my sixth can win. It doesn't matter how many Pokemon are on your team at the end of the battle as long as your opponent's faint first.

This is my point - it's based on a combination of poor team building (only having one counter, weak to any trapping mon) or poor playing (switching your Larvesta into Mienfoo U-turn). A Pokemon cannot, to me, be broken if it's value comes from people refusing to make intelligent choices of team make up and/or move choices. Murkrow had a hard time KOing more than 1-2 Pokemon without KOing itself, but it was NOT possible to prepare for. There was a Murkrow set that literally 2HKOed (almost) the ENTIRE metagame with using Brave Bird first. There was no outplaying it, there was no outbuilding it. Now, of course Diglett does not need to be on Murkrow's level to be banned, but this is a good time to actually consider the threshold.

And it's hard to win the "fainting your opponent's" contest first when you have no momentum - which is something that Celestavian was saying is "not the be all end all" but you fainting your opponent's Pokemon first is almost entirely based on it. You lose a mon, send in Diglett to revenge, get forced out and in all probability lose a mon before Diglett has managed to get back in, rinse repeat. Getting Diglett in is too hard to actually ignore this.

If your opponent's team has a Ponyta as its Calm Mind Spritzee counter as was mentioned previously, and removing Ponyta from the game allows you to win with that Spritzee.

Then they're bad.

If your opponent's team has both a Skrelp and an Abra as the only Pokemon preventing you from sweeping with Choice Scarf Mienfoo.

Then they're bad.

ps: though this suspect happened because I complained a lot, I actually did not have enough time to qualify to vote (curses LSAT preparation). Please fight the good fight for me and vote to ban the fucking thing.

If you're spending more than 3-4 hours a day for LSAT prep you are doing it wrong ;)

 

[breh]

just gonna post some quick thoughts on diglett (not really too concerned about goth since it seems that pretty much everybody agrees it's not a problem)

In the games I had to play on the ladder (highest paragon of quality, I know) I didn't really get the feeling that it was broken, regardless of whether I used it or it was used against me. Seeing Diglett in the team preview makes it a permanent thought in the back of your mind til it's dead (or glare para'd, idk). Whenever it killed something, I often felt like it resulted from my own poor play or would have happened regardless of arena trap - diglett is really strong with LO and faster than everything without a scarf. My diglett killing something was almost always coming in from a free switch from a KO or (on occasion) a u-turn. I noticed that a lot of people were very willing to let their mienfoo be knocked off and drop a very solid Diglett check in the process; I feel like a big chunk of the mons that I used diglett to specifically trap (and not just outspeed) was knocked off mienfoo (though other knocked off mons also apply). Diglett is good at picking things off but I felt like it KOed some mon then got forced out immediately. When diglett is useful, it's often a product of its amazing speed tier before its ability.

I didn't run anything but LO eq / rock slide / sub / sr; I don't know if putting memento in the last slot is what takes it over the edge.

(hope this isn't too uninformed lol)

 

[Shrug]

This is my point - it's based on a combination of poor team building (only having one counter, weak to any trapping mon) or poor playing (switching your Larvesta into Mienfoo U-turn). A Pokemon cannot, to me, be broken if it's value comes from people refusing to make intelligent choices of team make up and/or move choices. Murkrow had a hard time KOing more than 1-2 Pokemon without KOing itself, but it was NOT possible to prepare for. There was a Murkrow set that literally 2HKOed (almost) the ENTIRE metagame with using Brave Bird first. There was no outplaying it, there was no outbuilding it. Now, of course Diglett does not need to be on Murkrow's level to be banned, but this is a good time to actually consider the threshold.

And it's hard to win the "fainting your opponent's" contest first when you have no momentum - which is something that Celestavian was saying is "not the be all end all" but you fainting your opponent's Pokemon first is almost entirely based on it. You lose a mon, send in Diglett to revenge, get forced out and in all probability lose a mon before Diglett has managed to get back in, rinse repeat. Getting Diglett in is too hard to actually ignore this.

I'm going to hold this is a bit disingenuous. Diglett's function is not limited to just killing certain mons on which it packs SE moves at high HP after a misplay coming into a U-turn. Diglett can, say, kill a Mienfoo after Mienfoo is hit with a Magnemite V-switch and there is no recourse the Diglett foe has to stop this. Oftentimes foo is a teams best Magnemite switchin, unless a team is running Chou (trapped on a double), Mag (same), or Grass-types i guess. You can run scarfs on the electric-types, but this is again another option in teambuilding cut off by Diglett. the options expand from here - there are lots of combinations of mons that through there very action lure in even non-super-weak things to be trapped by Dig after a slight gain of momentum. The point i guess is, you act like any forfeiture of momentum is equivalent to the loss of a pokemon, when in the vast majority of cases, it isnt. If you and Blara play im relatively confident you will cede and reacquire momentum several times, but you will often be able to do that without great loss to your team because of smart, good counterplays. The banworthy idea behind diglett is it prevents that counterplay, turning a lot of kinda slight momentum losses into huge ones because a hole has been opened in your team.

I think this paragraph falls victim to the same idea of "loss of momentum = at least 1 KO". That would be more true with Gothita, which im p sure you preference, but in any case is not entirely true. The list of mons that can come in on Diglett post-kill is not trivial, and they can often do considerable damage. But in most cases, the Dig user will have something to pivot to, as the "major threats" are all frightened by Diglett - the headhunters dont like attacks and memento, the glass cannons dont like dealing with the fact Dig doesnt ensure a move vs a weak nonstab option as Goth does, etc. So yes, you do get to send Corphish in and click a strong Aqua Jet or Crabhammer, but the Diglett user often has something that beats that they can switch in to. In fact, it even illustrates a deeper point - the momentum needed to use Diglett is low for High rewards while post-use you give up a lot of momentum with only decent rewards. Typed No Ban btw but i think this deserved clarification.

 

[Heysup]

I'm going to hold this is a bit disingenuous. Diglett's function is not limited to just killing certain mons on which it packs SE moves at high HP after a misplay coming into a U-turn. Diglett can, say, kill a Mienfoo after Mienfoo is hit with a Magnemite V-switch and there is no recourse the Diglett foe has to stop this. Oftentimes foo is a teams best Magnemite switchin, unless a team is running Chou (trapped on a double), Mag (same), or Grass-types i guess. You can run scarfs on the electric-types, but this is again another option in teambuilding cut off by Diglett. the options expand from here - there are lots of combinations of mons that through there very action lure in even non-super-weak things to be trapped by Dig after a slight gain of momentum. The point i guess is, you act like any forfeiture of momentum is equivalent to the loss of a pokemon, when in the vast majority of cases, it isnt. If you and Blara play im relatively confident you will cede and reacquire momentum several times, but you will often be able to do that without great loss to your team because of smart, good counterplays. The banworthy idea behind diglett is it prevents that counterplay, turning a lot of kinda slight momentum losses into huge ones because a hole has been opened in your team.

This way of thinking is why Diglett seems like a problem and it's a good illustration at the difference between how I think a reasonable person should think and how lots of pro-ban people should think (not that you are one, so sorry for making an example of your post :P)

You say things like 'Diglett KOes Mienfoo after Magnemite V-Switch". I don't even consider that because 1) Unless I get outplayed, I'm not losing my Volt Switch absorber early enough for Diglett to still be around and 2) I (gasp) actually EV my Mienfoo to, on average (besides a 1/16^2 chance), survive both in a row. I know, it's really the devils work, but I think it is fucking pathetic to default to "ban Diglett" than to consider changing your EVs or use a Porygon, Grass or Ground-type to absorb Volt Switch instead of an electric-type. I know this is blasphemy so hail satan and all of that.

I think this paragraph falls victim to the same idea of "loss of momentum = at least 1 KO". That would be more true with Gothita, which im p sure you preference, but in any case is not entirely true. The list of mons that can come in on Diglett post-kill is not trivial, and they can often do considerable damage. But in most cases, the Dig user will have something to pivot to, as the "major threats" are all frightened by Diglett - the headhunters dont like attacks and memento, the glass cannons dont like dealing with the fact Dig doesnt ensure a move vs a weak nonstab option as Goth does, etc. So yes, you do get to send Corphish in and click a strong Aqua Jet or Crabhammer, but the Diglett user often has something that beats that they can switch in to. In fact, it even illustrates a deeper point - the momentum needed to use Diglett is low for High rewards while post-use you give up a lot of momentum with only decent rewards. Typed No Ban btw but i think this deserved clarification.

It doesn't necessarily equal at least one KO, but a good player has ways to capitalize on Diglett. KOing doesn't always matter - if I send out my Mienfoo on Diglett, I can smack the switch-in with Knock Off, making it a much shakier check for a few Pokemon - if that's the best option. Maybe I'll take the turn to set up Zigzagoon (if SR isn't on the field) or Shellder or a Smasher. The worst thing that can happen is that I get Memento'd and Diglett is gone meaning I'm basically up 5-4 with a +2 Speed mon. Often, the Diglett user relies on memento if they choose to use that over another move - meaning they now will have trouble setting up their wincon. Sure, the momentum doesn't mean you lose a mon, because not a lot of mons exist that can actually just drop another with "ease", but it's what you DO with that momentum and a free turn, from a good player, will be capitalized on.

Diglett isn't BAD. I use it on a fair amount of my teams (like at least 3 of 10 serious ones). I also use Mienfoo on like 8 of them and Fletchling on 5. It is just not a Pokemon that puts you at a severe disadvantage to not use and more so, if prepared for it's actually easy to capitalize on.

 

[tcr]

This is my point - it's based on a combination of poor team building (only having one counter, weak to any trapping mon) or poor playing (switching your Larvesta into Mienfoo U-turn). A Pokemon cannot, to me, be broken if it's value comes from people refusing to make intelligent choices of team make up and/or move choices. Murkrow had a hard time KOing more than 1-2 Pokemon without KOing itself, but it was NOT possible to prepare for. There was a Murkrow set that literally 2HKOed (almost) the ENTIRE metagame with using Brave Bird first. There was no outplaying it, there was no outbuilding it. Now, of course Diglett does not need to be on Murkrow's level to be banned, but this is a good time to actually consider the threshold.

And it's hard to win the "fainting your opponent's" contest first when you have no momentum - which is something that Celestavian was saying is "not the be all end all" but you fainting your opponent's Pokemon first is almost entirely based on it. You lose a mon, send in Diglett to revenge, get forced out and in all probability lose a mon before Diglett has managed to get back in, rinse repeat. Getting Diglett in is too hard to actually ignore this.

ha ha damn sometimes when i play this game i forget that switching my counter into something it counters is a bad play ha ha. Next time I just won't use Larvesta at all, since switching Larvesta into Mienfoo is a poor play ha ha. Ha ha I guess I should just get good instead of actually playing safe and correctly right? I guess from now on suspects should be held to Murkrow's level of brokenness you know? We'll treat Diglett like its job is solely meant to sweep through teams and just ko teams by existing ya? Who even cares about the trapping part right? thats irrelevant xP. I still don't get your argument about Diglett not gaining momentum. With Diglett its a streamline process to win. 1) Identify the one or two mons keeping X mon in check (CM spritz, Pawniard, Mienfoo, etc). 2) Lure them in. 3) kill them. 4) get x mon safely in and win. That's literally all you have to do. You say its a loss of momentum but if i remove the one thing keeping a teammate in check then I win. Sorry bud, but Pokemon doesn't work where you can just slap a magic team of 6 onto a team and check every single threat in the metagame. with 130+ mons in LC, its extremely hard to have a dedicated answer to every single threat in the game. I really didn't think I would have to type that out, but whatever. At best teams will have 2 good checks to something really potent in the metagame, like CM spritzee or Fletchling. No team is going to run 6 fletchling checks and still be a viable team.

Then they're bad.



Then they're bad.

ha ha same xP if you use mons that counter other mons, but yknow, they're diglett weak, thats my fault for using diglett weak mons right xP oh yeah but diglett isn't broken tho! Nah, the pressure it puts onto teams and the pressure it puts onto the opponent to perform at god tier level of predictions is completely normal for pokemon right? RIGHT? I guess teh question is, if I lose my Ponyta to Diglett because Mienfoo U-turned instead of Drain Punching, does that make Ponyta a shit mon, or me a shit player? xP

 

[Merritt]

ha ha damn sometimes when i play this game i forget that switching my counter into something it counters is a bad play ha ha. Next time I just won't use Larvesta at all, since switching Larvesta into Mienfoo is a poor play ha ha. Ha ha I guess I should just get good instead of actually playing safe and correctly right? I guess from now on suspects should be held to Murkrow's level of brokenness you know? We'll treat Diglett like its job is solely meant to sweep through teams and just ko teams by existing ya? Who even cares about the trapping part right? thats irrelevant xP. I still don't get your argument about Diglett not gaining momentum. With Diglett its a streamline process to win. 1) Identify the one or two mons keeping X mon in check (CM spritz, Pawniard, Mienfoo, etc). 2) Lure them in. 3) kill them. 4) get x mon safely in and win. That's literally all you have to do. You say its a loss of momentum but if i remove the one thing keeping a teammate in check then I win. Sorry bud, but Pokemon doesn't work where you can just slap a magic team of 6 onto a team and check every single threat in the metagame. with 130+ mons in LC, its extremely hard to have a dedicated answer to every single threat in the game. I really didn't think I would have to type that out, but whatever. At best teams will have 2 good checks to something really potent in the metagame, like CM spritzee or Fletchling. No team is going to run 6 fletchling checks and still be a viable team.



ha ha same xP if you use mons that counter other mons, but yknow, they're diglett weak, thats my fault for using diglett weak mons right xP oh yeah but diglett isn't broken tho! Nah, the pressure it puts onto teams and the pressure it puts onto the opponent to perform at god tier level of predictions is completely normal for pokemon right? RIGHT? I guess teh question is, if I lose my Ponyta to Diglett because Mienfoo U-turned instead of Drain Punching, does that make Ponyta a shit mon, or me a shit player? xP

Let's introduce hypothetical mon A and hypothetical mon B (call them Abbie and Baka for short). Abbie has a unique ability "Mienfoo-Proof" that means that it is immune to all attacks coming from a Mienfoo and prevents the Mienfoo from switching out. Against every other Pokemon it is useless, and overall Abbie's stats are somewhat subpar. Baka has its own unique ability, "Abbie-Proof" that does the same thing as "Mienfoo-Proof" against Abbie. Baka has access to Belly Drum, Agility, and a signature move that is an 40 BP priority move that hits twice and damages pretty much every mon in LC for neutral effectiveness. Once Baka sets up it cannot be stopped and sweeps every single team. The thing is, it has only 2 HP and the defenses of a wet paper pichu. Baka can only really set up on Abbie, but it does so in a way that cannot be stopped. Against pretty much every single team that does not use Abbie, Baka is just death fodder.

Abbie allows you to make as Mienfoo-weak a team as you want. Mienfoo is no longer an issue. However, by using Abbie you open your team to a Baka sweep at any time. Should Baka be banned, since it means that using Abbie isn't risk-free? Or should people just not use the mon that allows something else to destroy you, especially when there are other Mienfoo answers than Abbie?

Of course, this is an extreme example, but the point is - nobody is forcing you to use ponyta/larvesta/trubbish as your Mienfoo counter. You choose to do that, and I assume (granted I'm not entirely sure) that you know that this means that if the opponent has a Diglett and a Mienfoo there could be a bit of an issue with your team.

Let me go to a less extreme example than the first part. Your team is largely Zigzagoon weak, but you have a Gastly that can OHKO Zigzagoon. If your opponent happens to have a Stunky with pursuit that is capable of OHKOing Gastly (and unlike pretty much all Diglett scenarios, can actually switch in on Gastly!) to go with their Zig, does this mean Stunky is broken? Is pursuit broken, or worse, uncompetitive? Or does it just mean that you either need to build a new team or accept that this specific combination of mons can beat you?

Personally I'm a fan of letting something build up to enormous hype then have people realize how you can beat it. It's happened before with Trubbish, for example, who I think got all the way up to A rank at the height of its popularity, before people realized how very trashy it was overall and what holes it opened up. More recently in OU Mega Metagross became absurdly popular to the point where it was nearly banned, and now it's not even S rank and people thank whatever miracle allowed it to stay.

Sure this might all be a bit late to say, considering that almost everybody has already voted, but I wanted to condense my thoughts.

 

[tcr]

Your argument holds water if Diglett is actually vulnerable to other setup sweepers. But it isn't. In fact the only things it fears are: Snivy, Corphish, Carvanha, Tirtouga (a 50/50 essentially), Pawniard (again a 50/50), 14 Speed Scarvers, Fletchling, and various little mons that are all rolls (namely Zigzagoon). Every other Pokemon is simply bopped with Memento and unable to actually do anything. Agility Bunnelby isn't exactly scary when its -2 Attack.

Except you are forced to use Ponyta / Larvesta / Trubbish etc as your mienfoo counter. Your only other option are things like Spritzee or other various bulkymons. And even then they're easily worn down and trapped and killed.

Looking at the list of viable Pokemon that counter Mienfoo alone, from top to bottom: Abra, Spritzee, lolevio Archen, Ponyta, Snubbull, Vullaby, Cottonee, Foongus, Larvesta, Skrelp, Hippopotas, Croagunk, Tentacool, Koffing, Shellos, Trubbish

Half of those aren't even counters, because they simply get Knock Off'd and U-turned on (namely things like Snubbull, Tentacool, Croagunk, Hippopotas, etc). Abra, Ponyta, Snubbull, Larvesta, Skrelp, Croagunk, Tentacool, Trubbish are all trapped and killed by Diglett. At best Spritzee gets U-turned on, worst loses its Eviolite. Evio Archen is kinda a bad set, and it can only switch in once on HJK, and even then it goes into Defeatist from HJK + Rocks, forcing it into a Roost loop (which mienfoo wins either way, it wins the speed tie and 2hkoes or it kills anyway from Roost getting rid of Flying-type). Cottonee isn't exactly a threat to anything, and certainly won't be killing anything ever. Foongus is a good check to it, but fears Acrobatics Foo and once it loses its eviolite its easily koed by Diglett which deals 64% (16 HP) minimum to it, meaning U-turn + EQ wins. Snubbull is killed anyway by U-turn+EQ unless you happen to get a low roll on both U-turn+EQ, not have rocks up, and have 0 attack Mienfoo. Vullaby is 2hkoed by Scarffoo HJK + rocks (and even sometimes with rocks), and thats assuming that vullaby is full health with eviolite still in tact. So its only a soft counter that can switch into certain sets. Oh yeah, it also loses to stone edge. Hippopotas is easily worn down and set up bait for things like Fletchling depending on the set. Its also very momentum killing.

But yeah, you aren't forced to use Larvesta / Ponyta / Trubbish. You can certainly use Spritzee / Cottonee / Koffing / Shellos. Or you can use the 11 other Pokemon that just flat out lose to a Mienfoo with attack investment+Diglett.

An even further example of just how bullshit Diglett is in combination with certain Pokemon is Fletchling, which only "wins" if you use Archen / winning the 50/50 with Pawniard, Scarf Chou, Vullaby, Hippopotas, Aqua Jet Tirtouga, BJ Elekid + winning the speed tie, Endure Magnemite, Lickitung, Slowpoke (relies on a Scald burn or timely paralysis), or lileep. Which you can certainly do. But theres a reason half of those Pokemon in both sets are B- or below in viability rankings: they simply suck compared to A rank. They are a shitton harder to fit on a team that can meet the same standard of quality as fletchling / diglett / mienfoo / pawniard / archen / chinchou or whatever you want to run, a lot harder to actually use without just straight up sucking momentum away, and they are in general one trick mons, where half the time they can't even "counter" they simply can status something or set up SR (Cottonee, Hippopotas, Lileep). In short, no, we aren't "forced" to use x / y / z, but when the alternatives are absolute dogshit to use outside of one specific scenario, something is bloody wrong.

Your argument further down is even more dogshit spewing from your keyboard. Zigzagoon+Pursuit user don't even begin to compare to Mienfoo+Diglett, or Fletch+Diglett, or any other variation. Zigzagoon is a high risk medium reward pokemon, that absolutely needs its dick sucked 24 / 7 throughout the match, and have literally every single thing in a frame for it to even do any work. Its so fucking pointless, the amount of work required to set up a zigzagoon sweep, that you may as well not even use zigzagoon, since by the time zig can sweep literally any other Pokemon with half the previous effort would already have won. Zigzagoon needs all ghost-types completely gone, all steel-types, namely Pawniard+Magnemite, completely gone, needs to have the perfect set up opportunity in nothing that can OHKO it (which is a large portion of the tier), and needs to not be statused at all, so neither burned nor para'd nor slept by things like Snubbull, Foongus, Ponyta, Larvesta, TWave Chinchou, various Scald users. It also needs most Rock-types gone, like Tirtouga and Archen. It literally requires you to give it a handy, wet it a little, finger a little, pay for dinner, and then doesn't even go all the way because of how stupid it is. A zigzagoon sweep is the most painfully obvious strategy there is, and fails to compare to Diglett in any way. Any player worth their salt can spot a zigzagoon oriented team a mile away, even if they had no preview. So no, its not Zigzagoon+Pursuit user. Its, Cottonee+Diglett+Mienfoo+Zigzagoon+Stunky+Filler. Substitute Mienfoo for another Fighting-type and Stunky for a different Pursuiter (idk why but w/e) and the team is basically the same, only slightly different. They are NOT the same at all in any way.

 

[Michielleus]

With Diglett its a streamline process to win. 1) Identify the one or two mons keeping X mon in check (CM spritz, Pawniard, Mienfoo, etc). 2) Lure them in. 3) kill them. 4) get x mon safely in and win. That's literally all you have to do.

When laddering this way, I've found that it's not as easy to pull this strategy off as it seems. You're already giving a large portion of your strategy away through the team preview, which gives opponents a lot of chances to anticipate on your moves.
Diglett is still incredibly frail, which means making it come in can be a challenge. Also, luring 'the one or two mons keeping X mon in check' is also a burden and can be played around if your opponent is a decent player.

Just to use your example:

if I lose my Ponyta to Diglett because Mienfoo U-turned instead of Drain Punching

In this example, in order to trap with Diglett, you'd have to...

1. Force your opponent's mon out with your Mienfoo
2. Correctly predict the Drain Punch/U-turn
3. OHKO your opponent's mon

If all these conditions are met, Diglett's trap works. Point 1 can be circumvented with teambuilding (having more mons able to come in safely on Mienfoo), whereas point 2 can be circumvented by correctly preditcing. After succesfully trapping your opponent, you would still have to sweep with mon X, which needs to safely set up, which can be hard. Your opponent also now has a space for setup sweepers, such as Scraggy, to get a Dragon Dance and start hitting hard.
Granted, the player without Diglett has a big disadvantage, but that's just the downside of using mons like Ponyta - they're weak to Diglett. This means you'd have to work around that during your matches. It's hard, but not impossible.
In my opinion, Diglett is in no way uncompetitive and can be adapted to. I know it's late to say this but I just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

[Kingler]

I mean all your three points take place over one turn where mienfoo safely u-turns on, say, pawniard and traps the ponyta switchin, eqing it. There's nothing you can do about that sequence of events after you have switched ponyta in. Also once ponyta does come in, mienfoo still can threaten to U-turn on the morning sun or w/e and go to diglett which STILL traps it. Diglett teams obviously have checks to x setup sweeper that takes advantage of it and it isn't a total momentum suck as is being implied; for example, corphish can be countered by foongus and snivy, snivy with vullaby and foongus, scraggy (which needs to be healthy enough in case diglett user doesn't need it and decides to stay in, btw) by mienfoo/fairy (cm spritzee, for example). The diglett user can literally just switch into these mons and level the playing field again, except he has an important kill under his belt.

Of course, your opponent knows this is a possibility, hence why this is somewhat of a gamble, but the odds are still in the diglett user's favor. This is not to mention double switching to bring diglett in which is also a factor every time your opp switches into larvesta/ponyta/what have you.