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Pokémon Gourgeist

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Shroomisaur, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    #711 - Gourgeist

    [​IMG]

    Type: Ghost / Grass
    Base Stats:
    Super Size: 85 / 100 / 122 / 58 / 75 / 54
    Small Size: 55 / 85 / 122 / 58 / 75 / 99

    (The sizes are referred to on Smogon as Gourgeist-S, Gourgeist-A, Gourgeist-L, and Gourgeist-H, from smallest to largest)

    Abilities: Frisk / Pick-Up / Insomnia (DW)

    Level-Up Moves (open)

    - Trick
    - Astonish
    - Confuse Ray
    - Explosion
    - Phantom Force
    Lv 4: Scary Face
    Lv 6: Trick-or-Treat (NEW! Target gains Ghost-typing in addition to their normal typing)
    Lv 11: Worry Seed
    Lv 16: Razor Leaf
    Lv 20: Leech Seed
    Lv 26: Bullet Seed
    Lv 30: Shadow Sneak
    Lv 36: Shadow Ball
    Lv 42: Pain Split
    Lv 48: Seed Bomb
    Lv 57: Phantom Force
    Lv 70: Shadow Ball
    Lv 75: Explosion

    TM/HM Compatibility (open)

    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 Solar Beam
    TM27 Return
    TM29 Psychic
    TM30 Shadow Ball
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM36 Sludge Bomb
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM42 Facade
    TM43 Flame Charge
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round
    TM52 Focus Blast
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM57 Charge Beam
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM64 Explosion
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM74 Gyro Ball
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM85 Dream Eater
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM88 Sleep Talk
    TM90 Substitute
    TM92 Trick Room
    TM94 Rock Smash
    TM96 Nature Power
    TM97 Dark Pulse
    TM100 Confide

    Egg Moves:
    Disable
    Destiny Bond


    Analysis:

    Trevenant isn't the only new Grass/Ghost type in town! Gourgeist's typing sets it apart from other Ghosts, and Gourgeist also packs a nice movepool full of support and utility options. As a Ghost, Gourgeist will be able to fulfill the role of Spin-blocker for a team, and does so quite well with solid 55/122/75 defensive stats. Trevenant has superior attack power, and incredible healing potential through Rest and either Lum+Harvest, or Natural Cure. While Gourgeist's Frisk is not nearly as useful, it still has some tricks up its... gourd. Gourgeist notably has access to Shadow Sneak, which allows its Super Size form to bypass its awful speed. Gourgeist also has access to Pain Split which allows it to keep itself healthy while soaking up hits, and Leech Seed which always proves to be an excellent choice for keeping HP high and annoying your opponent. The newly buffed Will-O-Wisp is a signature move on most Gourgeist as well, making it incredibly strong against physical attackers.

    The most unique aspect of Gourgeist is that it is the first and only Pokemon to come in different sizes! These sizes are not just cosmetic; they influence its base stats. The Small form has the highest speed, while the Super-Size form possesses low Speed in exchange for significantly higher HP & Attack! Because of this, there is an extra level of choice when you select Gourgeist, as you can select not only the EVs and Nature, but also the size that best suits your needs!

    Super-Size Gourgeist looks to be the strongest overall form, but a smaller form may be necessary to outspeed a specific threat. 55/122/75 defenses are just for the small form - larger forms increase to 85/122/75. One very interesting fact is that Gourgeist is the only Grass-type to learn Flamethrower and Fire Blast! Even with its awful base SpAtk, this will potentially allow Gourgeist to surprise would-be counters such as Ferrothorn:

    0 SpA Gourgeist Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 132-156 (40.36 - 47.7%)
    0 SpA Gourgeist Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 152-180 (43.18 - 51.13%)
    0 SpA Gourgeist Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 308-364 (87 - 102.82%)

    92 EVs are necessary to guarantee the 2HKO on Ferrothorn and Skarmory with SR. This will also provide a 56.25% chance to OHKO 248/8 Scizor.


    Potential Movesets:

    Jack-o-Lantern of all Trades

    Gourgeist-H @ Leftovers
    Size: Super Size
    Ability: Frisk
    Nature: Impish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Leech Seed / Pain Split
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Seed Bomb

    The jack-o-Lantern of all Trades is a utility set, focusing on absorbing hits and blocking Rapid Spin for your team. With maximum investment, Gourgeist can handle physical hits very well, and Will-O-Wisp complements Gourgeist's naturally high physical Defense. Pain Split (or Leech Seed) can both be used to drain your opponent while keeping Gourgeist healthy throughout the match, allowing it to switch in repeatedly.

    Seed Bomb is the reliable STAB option, and Gourgeist also features Shadow Sneak to negate Super-Size Gourgeist's awful speed and take out weakened Sweepers. A specially defensive EV spread with a Careful nature can be run as well to turn Gourgeist into a mixed wall.

    Small Sub-Seeding Squash
    Gourgeist-S @ Leftovers
    Size: Small
    Ability: Frisk
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 Spe
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect / Pain Split
    - Seed Bomb / Substitute

    This build plays to the strengths of small Gourgeist: a fast sub-seeder with unique typing and tricks up its sleeve! Small Gourgeist can outpace many physical threats, including Jolly Lucario, and burn them with Will-O-Wisp. From there, Small Gourgeist can use Leech Seed and begin the stalling process to frustrate your opponent to no end. Combined with Protect, Substitute, and/or Pain Split, Gourgeist has solid sustainability.

    The final slot is the attack of your choice. Running a Calm nature allows Gourgeist to maintain its speed while also allowing Fire Blast to deal with opposing Grass or Steel type threats. Or you could choose to run STAB Phantom Force, which allows you to stall for an extra turn of leftovers, Leech Seed and/or burn damage and hit with your better attack stat, at the expense of being predictable and locked in.

    Trick Room Gourd Grenade
    Gourgeist-H @ Life Orb / Normal Gem
    Size: Super Size
    Ability: Frisk
    Nature: Brave
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
    IVs: 0 Speed
    - Trick Room
    - Explosion
    - Seed Bomb
    - Shadow Sneak / Rock Slide / Fire Blast / WoW

    Extremely straightforward, this Gourgeist puts the awful speed of Super Size Gourgeist to use! Set up Trick Room and then either hit something, or more likely, Explode on the opponent to give a TR sweeper of your choice 3 turns to rampage. While Gourgeist has good attack power, it lacks the physical movepool necessary to really abuse TR itself, which is why Explosion is often the best option.

    Conclusion:

    Gourgeist looks to be a durable utility Pokemon full of options for teams needing a Ghost type. Gourgeist actually possesses an expansive special movepool, including Shadow Ball, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, and Dark Pulse. Unfortunately it is cursed with 58 base SpA and is unable to use them effectively. On the other hand, Gourgeist's usable Attack stat is hampered by its sparce physical movepool, and it lacks Shadow Claw. What do you think about Gourgest, and how do you think it will fit into the metagame?
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2013
    Hyota, Azure Demon, Psylink and 4 others like this.
  2. TwoBit

    TwoBit

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    Trick-or-Treat works well with Shadow Sneak as lets Gourgeist hit super effectively with Shadow Sneak. It may also the side effect of removing the opponent's STAB. The opponent may simply switch out of it, but the benefit of not being walled by typing is something that shouldn't be overlooked.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    With the info we have so far, Gourgeist seems outclassed by Trevenant. Both Pokemon have similar special bulk, which is what matters the most because most Water-types are specially based, but Trevenant has Horn Leech + Rest + Natural Cure + Harvest + Sitrus Berry as recovery options over Gourgeist. We all know how unreliable Pain Split is, especially on a Pokemon with big HP stat as this. This guy could be great in UU though, or as a better check to Exacdrill, that can actually survive a +2 Iron Head thanks to its great physical bulk. And it has Shadow Sneak over Trevenant i guess, but it lacks Shadow Claw, so it's kind of a tie in the physical Ghost moves department.
  4. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Is there a source for it knowing Will-o-wisp? It doesn't seem to be in any of its known learned moves groups, according to the OP, yet it's listed in a set anyway.

    If not, that's another point for Trevenant. Still, Gourgeist has a lot more physical bulk and can get much faster depending on the size, while Trevevant doesn't seem sturdy enough to take on a defensive role too well. The Rest+Lum+Harvest set suggested in its thread could help its longevity a ton, though, while Gourgeist does have a hard time healing.
  5. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Heh, that Rest+Lum+Harvest was actually my own post there :) Needless to say, I love both of our new Grass/Ghost families this gen!

    The reason why Will-o-Wisp doesn't appear in the learned moves is because the official data thread doesn't have it listed yet. Considering Gourgeist is Ghost-type AND learns Fire Blast and Flamethrower, I would be absolutely bamboozled if Gourgeist doesn't get WoW. The data is still coming in, and I've updated the moves with Explosion and will continue to update as we learn more about Gourgeist. It still has a niche as the only Ghost/Grass sub-seeder.

    Edit: WoW confirmed.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  6. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    It'll be hard to make an EV spread for this pumpkin until we are certain about its base stats, but I think that something like this would be the set that best distinguishes it from Trevenant:

    Gourgeist-Super (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: IDK
    Careful or Impish Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Seed-Protect gives it a pretty good source recovery (think Ferrothorn last gen), and unlike Trevenant, it is able to switch into a Starmie attack and subsequently Shadow Sneak. It also has significantly better physical defense, which will make countering Excadrill a bit less taxing.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  7. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    lol a Grass type with Flamethrower.

    Sadly its Sp Attack looks it's going to suck in the 4 sizes.
  8. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    So wait, all that was LOST in the change from Small to Super Size was Speed?

    ...we're going to have to see if anything goes Bell Curve here, because if I'm reading this right there will be no reason not to aim for a Super one.
    Luigifan likes this.
  9. Mack the Knife

    Mack the Knife Goodbye Smogon! I may return, I may not!
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    So will they be tiered separately, like the Rotom formes?
  10. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    They're different forms with gameplay relevance and the ability to enter battle that way, so I'd assume so.
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  11. Brammi

    Brammi

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    I've been having some success in custom games with a set of Sub/Seed/Sneak/Seed Bomb with a Max/Max Specially defensive spread. It pretty much stops all spinners not named Greninja.
  12. TwoBit

    TwoBit

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    Greninja can't spin. It was a rumor. That's what happens when we're unable to data mine the games ;_;
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  13. Brammi

    Brammi

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    Well then it's an even epiccer spin blocker.
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  14. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Gourgeist is actually the only Grass-type to learn Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Will-o-Wisp (not counting Rotom-Mow), and Flame Charge. Kinda neat.

    We don't know Gourgeist's exact stats yet, but using a pessimistic estimate of 55 base SpA, I did some calcs.
    [All calcs using 110 BP Fire Blast, 0 EVs and neutral nature]

    0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 148-176 (42.04 - 50%)
    0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 126-150 (38.53 - 45.87%)
    0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 236-280 (68.8 - 81.63%)
    0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 292-348 (82.48 - 98.3%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    So even with horrible base SpA and no investment whatsoever, Fire Blast is certainly worth consideration. I've updated the OP with some new info as well.
    Lugi and Alert to Sounds like this.
  15. Fennekin

    Fennekin

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    Super-Size Gourgeist.
    Adamant, 31/31/31/31/x/x
    252 HP / 252 Akt / 6 Def
    Base Stats according to Shroomisaur: Super Size Gourgeist: 85 / 100 / 123 / 58 / ~80 / ~52
    Reposting my thing from the Data thread, in case anyone's interested.


    phallus.png
  16. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    I'm curious about the ranges on the two uncertain stats. Seems like it's about +/- 5, if it's based on a difference of possibly 16 EVs IVs either way at LV33?

    Interestingly, while the SpA/SpD stats seem within the Small range, the Def is above it by just a point. Perhaps the previous ranges are off a bit and its Def is 123 in all forms?
  17. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    That's a distinct possibility, yes. The older estimates were done on unknown EV/IV pokemon. But the final two stats for this calc, although not 100% confirmed, are not due to EVs (they both have 0) so it's just due to unknown IVs. Due to that I assumed 16 in both stats which is why they are close estimates but not confirmed. I'll be updating the OP with the new info!
  18. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Oh yeah, meant to say IVs.

    Also, looking things over, it seems that from Small to Super, Gourgeist gets about +20 HP/Atk and -40 Spe. Perhaps its BST is equal across all four forms? That'd sure make them seem a bit more viable.
  19. Aggressive Sock

    Aggressive Sock

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    I'm raising a Gourgeist(Super Sized), Careful Nature. EV: 252 HP/ 252 SP. Def/ 6 Speed
    What are your recommendations on how to use it correctly in battle to it's greatest potential? Fairly new to the competitive nature of the Pokémon games, so I'm trying to get the most out of them so I figured I'd ask. Thanks.
  20. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    I've refined the Small-form estimates a bit and it's certainly looking that way. Earlier on it looked as if Super-Size also gained bonus defenses as well, but it's looking like that's not the case and serebii's initial info was correct. I'm glad that makes smaller forms viable if you want a slightly less tanky Gourgeist that is able to outspeed certain threats. Smaller forms might actually be the best option for a speedy sub-seeder.

    Everyone has to start somewhere and you've come to the right place, welcome! A Careful nature is a great choice for a Gourgeist and allows it to take both special and physical hits very well. The set in the OP would be a good choice for you, running Leech Seed and WoW to whittle down your opponent, along with a Shadow Sneak and Seed Bomb or Protect in the final slot.
  21. Tribute

    Tribute

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    The problem with gourghiest is that its a physical attacker that only gets special moves (It cant even take the TM for shadow claw for christs sake).

    Outside a strong STAB shadow sneak, with a potential way to make super effective, it has seed bomb / shadow force as STAB phyisical moves, the latter being easy to dodge and both having pretty shit base power as main attacks with no effect (SForce hits through protect, but honestly thats not going to be a thing unless you're battling a retard, if it hit through sub it could be useful, but still easy to avoid). Shitty stabs with the way to cirvumvent that (ToT) being easily avoidable.

    At best it could a lower tier wall with probably:

    Gourgeist-Super (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 252 HP - 252 Def - 4 SpD [Possibly flipped to be built for SpD since it has solid natural phys bulk but honestly its hard to tell how the meta will be this early]
    Impish
    - Leech Seed
    - W-o-W
    - Protect/Painsplit
    - Shadowsneak/<Obscure special coverage to hit a counter> - Picking off vs having an attack to fire off. Probably the former with protect and latter with PS

    I can see it having a good niche as a scout / crippler, but also it would have a giant neon "taunt me" sign because of its milquetoast physical pool and low SpA.

    It really just bothers me how they put so many nice special attacks on it but no physicals/bad SpA. Swap its attack/SpA and he could be great. If they even gave giga drain or horn leech it could be a workable assault vester
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  22. rpgcaster

    rpgcaster

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    I really like this Pokemon. Jumping the gun but, would this thing maybe be useful as a trick room setter, and how would one use a Gourgeist in said room?

    On a side note my Gourgeist got Pickup ability and after taking a siginificant hit the ability activated in battle. It picked up a Sitrus Berry and healed itself. Since when has this been possible?
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  23. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
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    Well, its super size is slow and bulky enough to set Trick Room, although he doesn't have many useful attacking options as of now. I can see it working as a suicide Trick Room lead at best, since it does have Explosion to heavily dent the enemy (it also has Destiny Bond, woo). It can also use Will-o-Wisp to make physical attackers useless vs whatever Trick Room sweeper will come in. It won't be Gourgeist's main niche though, but it'd be usable.
  24. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    I know you mention Shadow Force later, but it is a thing. Hits through Protect, no one uses Dig style moves (except you, now), and if your opponent doesn't have a Normal type they can't switch someone in to take it. Plus, as a wall, you enjoy the extra turn of Lefties.

    I can see someone doing a Divecolo style set on this, only with Rain Dish not around to make it amazing.
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  25. escarlata

    escarlata

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    This thing makes a good spinblocker because the smaller sized one is one of the few spinblockers that can potentially beat most spinners slower than Tentacruel one-on-one thanks to unspinnable leech seed, Phantom Force to pass turns, and the movepool to 2HKO most common spinners/spikers.

    Gourgeist-Small@ Leftovers
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 252 HP/208 SDef (or Def)/48 Spd
    Calm/Bold
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute
    - Fire Blast
    - Ghost/Grass STAB or WoW /Disable

    Small sized ironically has the best bulk if it needs to reach the specific speed tier. Fully invested in HP give 314 HP for maximum mix bulk. 50 Spd EVs gives 246 Spd Gourgeist to outspeed and outstall 32 Spd Jirachi and essentially all spinners bar Excadril and Starmie. An -Atk reducing nature is used because it allows it to OHKO Forretress and 2HKO Skarmory 100% of the time after SR with Fire Blast. The rest of the EVs are put either into Def or SDef with a positive nature, giving 365/186 or 280/261 bulk which is still surprisingly bulky when faced with spinners. Alternatively those EVs can be put into SAtk for more damage on Fire Blast, though may not be worth the investment.

    To illustrate how useful this thing really is against common switch-ins and spinners:
    Custom is Gourgeist-Small with 252/0 Calm

    Defensively:
    • 0 SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD (custom): 73-87 (23.24 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO
    • 0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 76-90 (24.2 - 28.66%) -- possible 4HKO
    • 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 145-172 (46.17 - 54.77%) -- 61.33% chance to 2HKO
    • 0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 58-70 (18.47 - 22.29%) -- possible 6HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 186-219 (59.23 - 69.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 182-216 (57.96 - 68.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD (custom): 205-242 (65.28 - 77.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 4 SpA Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD (custom): 124-148 (39.49 - 47.13%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Offensively:
    • 0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 144-170 (44.03 - 51.98%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 336-396 (94.91 - 111.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 268-316 (78.13 - 92.12%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 108-128 (40.44 - 47.94%) -- 58.59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 164-196 (46.59 - 55.68%) -- 76.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0 SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 128-152 (49.04 - 58.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0- Atk (custom) Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 194-230 (74.32 - 88.12%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 0- Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 80-96 (30.65 - 36.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    From there, you can proceed to get a sub up against most of them and then either counter with the appropriate move, or just seed them, seeing that they cannot spin away the leech seed.

    Due to its superior speed, it outspeed specific threats so it is not forced out so easily. Also, it heals a greater % of health for easier subseeding
    The extra speed allows it to do stuff like:

    • If it nails Skarmory with Fire Blast on the switch, it can KO Skarmory the next turn, something that super sized one cannot do.
    • Against Tentacruel, it can outspeed and get a sub up to scout for ice beams/sludge bombs and Toxics, and subseed it to death, while blocking rapid spin, while larger ones will fall to sludge bomb.
    • If Heatran comes in on a sub, small sized ones can outspeed and subseed it to death while larger ones are forced to switch out.
    • Burns bulky dd-gyara and sub dd-nite before they sub up or taunt
    • Can get a sub up before Blissey and Jellicent can status you
    • Outpaces and burns pursuit trappers and can seed them even with a 252/0 spread (Burnt Band Ttar only deals 59.2% - 70.7% to 252/0 Gourgeist-Small with Crunch (from there, it can just switch out because you can tell when it is banded), while large ones risk being OHKOed by Crunch because they can't burn Ttar before the Crunch.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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