Greninja Revisited

[Its_A_Random]

Tightly Moderated Discussion. Anyone who wants to attempt to derail the thread will be moderated and possibly infracted. You have been warned.

Oh boy, not this again.

Posts in Feedback on the matter:

I really thought we never needed to do this again, but we need to do something with Greninja. Again. The rationale behind this is that every time I go on IRC, I hear endless complaints from new users AND experienced users that Greninja is OP/broken and needs a nerf. When I ask why it needs a nerf, people bring up the following factors to it:

• "Impossible" to order first against / no reliable counters.
• Protean + Rare Candy.
• A blistering Speed stat.
• A wide array of coverage that gives it the tools it needs to deal with most targets as well as provide strong defensive capabilities.
• A very good array of supportive / disruptive moves.

And that it is a combination of the above five factors that in the eyes of quite a few users here, arguably pushes it over the edge and is seen as some as a degenerative force in the metagame (Its usage in AOT3 R1 isn't high for no reason). Out of these, the only thing we can really feasibly nerf are Protean and/or Rare Candy and it is probably in the best interests of the game to do so to nerf Greninja and put it in line (The most common suggested nerf being to make it so it does not get +5 BAP on everything).

No one is saying we are going to murder Greninja to the depths of unviability with this. Heck, after the nerf, I still forsee it getting plenty of usage because even without Protean Greninja is still plenty viable. Also before people bring up Sableye et al and why Greninja is such a special snowflake, bear in mind that Sableye et al at least have reliable answers to them, you really cannot say this with Greninja because of its ability to change typing at will and ability to screw over any first order-set with ease, and this is why people have been complaining about Greninja as opposed to Sableye or Mega Gardevoir.

tl;dr, Greninja even after Mat Block nerf is still seen as an issue and we have to look at it again.

The only one of those I think we can justify tackling is "Protean + Rare Candy". The first is self-fixing (It's not impossible to order first vs., but it's a pain that's more limiting than other mons), the 3rd is literally unfixable, the 4th is similar, the 5th we tried and it didn't work.

Main things to avoid are hurting other type changers (Kecleon, Castform), whilst at the same time unbreaking Gren & co. Easiest fix would be in Rare Candy - change it to boost just original STABs, leaving Everstone as is. Probably something less clunky though?

If we want to nerf only greninja we just need to put a nerf on protean and remove it if protean is with color change. Like "If this pokemon changes typing due to protean, the item-based STAB bonuses will occur only to the original STAB. If Protean is combined with Color Change, item-based STAB bonuses will occur to the typing the pokemon was changed to". Only with a better phrasing and all.


just 2 cents.

Well castform and kecleon benefit from everstone not candy though, so making RC (but not everstone) only affect original STABs effectively does the same thing.
Both solutions work, but the RC one gives stuff like soak a little more power, turns camouflage into ever more shit, makes.. reflect type into shit...? lol
Also resolves dogfish's question about Forest's Curse and Trick or Treat from 1 post before IAR's ninjastorm
The protean thing just solves this current issue, and affects nothing else, being no collateral damage to anything else.

^ is trying to debate both sides of the point. I think the RC version affects a few more things, which can be good or bad, depending. I'm thinking better overall because of the niche side changes. The protean thing looks like a huge mouthful to word, and honestly I feel like we should put "greninja line" there rather than anything else more cumbersome.

Basically the tone of the discussion is to discuss ways of nerfing Greninja should we decide to nerf Greninja (which imo we honestly need to do for reasons outlined in my first post). The main solutions to this nerf suggested are nerfs to Protean, Rare Candy, or Protean and Rare Candy.

I have personal opinions on how I think we should go about it but I will get back to those later.

Points:

• Should we nerf Greninja? Why or why not?
• If so, how should we nerf Greninja?

Reminder: Any off-topic post or post attempting to derail discussion will result in moderation.

Fire away.

 

[Gerard]

I haven't fight enough ninjas to have formed an opinion but I suggest that if a nerf is come to pass we do the following:

If Protean changes the type of the user then the Energy Cost of the move is raised by three (3).

This causes that Greninja's type changing shenanigans are kept in check by the large energy cost associated with them. I feel that this would be the best course of action. By comparison Technician raises the BP of attacks <6 BP by up to 3 for 1 extra energy. Protean raises the BP of ALL attacks by 3 (5 with RC) AND changes the typing of the pokemon when doing it. Thus if Greninja wants to start hoping around orders it would take 9 extra energy per round to switch around attacks, but if he chooses to remain one type then it doesn't have to worry about it's energy being drained like crazy.

Another solution would be to make the energy cost escalate like the cost of using the same attack over and over, if Greninja changes typing once it'll cost 2 energy, then 4 for the second time, 6 for the next and so on, being broken if it doesn't change types on one turn.

 

[Geodude6]

i like frosty's idea

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Supporting DF and Frosty's ideas of "Rare Candy to only boost Original STABs" and "Protean to only give Item based STAB bonuses to Original stab if not combined with Color Change" respectively. As it provides a decent nerf to the +2 BAP on everything, stays natural to the existing Rare Candy effect and doesn't affect Kecleon either.

Gerard's idea of 'protean draining energy like Technician', makes sense (flavor wise too) and is something that we know to have worked with Technician, and could be a start to the Greninja nerf (incase we are stuck at deciding any other nerf).

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

To reiterate what was discussed on irc regarding Gerard's idea, we would add something negating Protean EN cost to the wording of either protean of color change if the protean user also has color change. Because kecleon is god and whatnot.

I think the flat "per change" thing sounds better than an increasing thing.

 

[Frosty]

I prefer to have it affect protean instead of item X because trace and skill swap are things. Sure, not common enough to warrant special treatment, but it is there. Although changing rare candy does have the advantage of making raid artifacts work on it fine. But it also shouldn't be parameter.

One other idea I've been fiddling around with is giving the opponent extra sub(s) to work with. Like give Greninja's opponents an extra sub, as long as that sub has a "Greninja is XXX-Typing" clause. Or something along those lines.

But I'd prefer reduce the power or Rare Candy on it and only if it doesn't work apply other stuff

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

Another idea would be to leave RC as is, and make protean not grant STAB. Then, make it grant STABs to a protea user who also has color change.

 

[acidphoenix]

In my opinion, the following are BASIC tenets of Protean:

Using a move(we nerfed it to damaging, this is fine) changes you to that move's type.
You gain STAB that action, because you are that type.

These are both THE defining(read: the features ingame has that we can keep without making it 100% guaranteed to be overpowered) features of Protean.
I think that anything except that is fair game.

Personally, I like removing item-based STAB boost for nonoriginal type >> making it cost EN(although it should cost 2 for precedent) >> XXX-typing sub and can't really think of any other options.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Here is what I would do:

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The STAB Check for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability have the STAB Check (for BAP only) calculated based on their type after using the move and may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action.

Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank if their Base Rank Total is 23 or less. If the Pokemon's Base Rank Total is 17 or less, it increases by two (2) Ranks. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead. This STAB check is based on the Pokemon's type before using a move. Necturna will only have her Special Defense increased by one (1) rank when holding this item.

Changes:

• EN Cost check is now a STAB Check, effectively nerfing Protean by removing "STAB on everything" in most cases. This is necessary because hitting Rare Candy and not Protean simply results in LO variants (or even E-Belt variants and maybe even RC variants still) and nothing much changes.
  
• Colour Change + Protean has the STAB check for BAP applied after type change, effectively counterbalancing the collateral that would occur from the above.
• Rare Candy now has the STAB boost check before using a move, which only applies to anything with Protean, effectively butchering Rare Candy Greninja's power when it chooses to change types, but remains a viable option nevertheless due to providing a consistent boost to its Special Attacks without LO recoil and keeping type still offers full power.

Reasoning is that: Nerfing Protean only and Nerfing Rare Candy only I feel are band-aid solutions (Rare Candy Gren is still very powerful for former, alternative items for the latter), so I feel hitting both are necessary and making Protean's type change effect (for the Greninja line anyway) a purely defensive effect is a better way to keep it in line. Greninja will still be viable after this and keeping the full power kick to retaining typing only adds risk to the equation as while it gets a massive power kick by keeping typing, it is more vulnerable to movespam in some cases and gives the opponent time to reliably bash it ordering second or something.

Ehhh there might be a better way but this is what I feel we should do.

 

[Mowtom]

As long as we're chaging Rare Candy's description, we should change "If the Pokemon has two types" to "If the Pokemon has two or more types" and do the same for Everstone.

Also what's with the Necturna bit?

So that this post isn't completely off-topic, I like the solution but feel like it's sorta wordy. Isn't it enough to say that "the STAB Check for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move" in the Protean description? Why do we have to alter Rare Candy at all?

 

[Its_A_Random]

As long as we're chaging Rare Candy's description, we should change "If the Pokemon has two types" to "If the Pokemon has two or more types" and do the same for Everstone.

Ehhh we should do it but this isn't exactly the place to discuss it.

Also what's with the Necturna bit?

The Necturna bit is grandfathered from the last major revision where we agreed to remove the Atk boost it got.

So that this post isn't completely off-topic, I like the solution but feel like it's sorta wordy. Isn't it enough to say that "the STAB Check for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move" in the Protean description? Why do we have to alter Rare Candy at all?

Because if we didn't, someone is likely to misinterpret it as Greninja gets +2 BAP on everything even if it did not get STAB according to Protean; it is better to be explicit. Redundant it could be (I do not really see it as redundant) but I felt the wording was kinda necessary.

 

[Frosty]

I don't like how you are effectively turning protean into something completely different. we don't usually differ that much from ingame. At least not when nerfing.

(#inb4aftermath)

But since I don't have any better option, I am somewhat indifferent. I just agree with mowtom that it is a clunky solution. Too wordy. Just put instead of

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action.

the following

By default, this Pokemon switches their type after striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they used, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action and will change their typing before the attack is used.

Making the type change occur after the attack is used solves all our problems without the need for further clarification. If it happens after the attack, then obviously RC and En and STAB and etc won't be triggered, since they all happen during the attack.

This has some minor differences from what you are proposing, specially typing-specific interations (like rock's extra priority and flying's hit during fly effect). But that is rather minor and won't come into effect for the most part.

 

[Geodude6]

I don't like how we are basically negating Protean's offensive properties, which IMO is an integral part of the ability. I understand the reasoning behind it but I think there might be a better way to go about it. Maybe something like one of:

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, at the cost of 3% of their energy, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. Any item-based STAB increases act as if the Pokemon is its natural typing (for example, Greninja will always get +1 BAP to Water and Dark-type moves while holding Rare Candy, instead of getting +2 BAP to its Protean type). When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action, have any item-based STAB increases (eg Everstone) affect their type after changing types, and do not spend energy to change their type.

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. Any item-based STAB increases act as if the Pokemon is its natural typing (for example, Greninja will always get +1 BAP to Water and Dark-type moves while holding Rare Candy, instead of getting +2 BAP to its Protean type). When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action and have any item-based STAB increases (eg Everstone) affect their type after changing types. The time it takes to change type can give the opponent a brief opening to react. As a result, Pokemon facing a Pokemon with Protean get a bonus substitution that is in the format "IF [mon] is X type" with no further qualifiers or additional clauses allowed. This bonus substitution may go anywhere in the list of substitutions the pokemon makes, but it must be indicated with "Bonus" or "Bonus Sub" or something similar in front of the bonus substitution. Pokemon with the Color Change ability are more adept at changing types, so this bonus substitution is not granted when facing a Pokemon with both Color Change and Protean.

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, at the cost of 3% of their energy, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action, and do not spend energy to change types. The time it takes to change type can give the opponent a brief opening to react. As a result, Pokemon facing a Pokemon with Protean get a bonus substitution that is in the format "IF [mon] is X type" with no further qualifiers or additional clauses allowed. This bonus substitution may go anywhere in the list of substitutions the pokemon makes, but it must be indicated with "Bonus" or "Bonus Sub" or something similar in front of the bonus substitution. Pokemon with the Color Change ability are more adept at changing types, so this bonus substitution is not granted when facing a Pokemon with both Color Change and Protean.

By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, at the cost of 3% of their energy, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. Any item-based STAB increases act as if the Pokemon is its natural typing (for example, Greninja will always get +1 BAP to Water and Dark-type moves while holding Rare Candy, instead of getting +2 BAP to its Protean type). When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action, , have any item-based STAB increases (eg Everstone) affect their type after changing types, and do not spend energy to change their type. The time it takes to change type can give the opponent a brief opening to react. As a result, Pokemon facing a Pokemon with Protean get a bonus substitution that is in the format "IF [mon] is X type" with no further qualifiers or additional clauses allowed. This bonus substitution may go anywhere in the list of substitutions the pokemon makes, but it must be indicated with "Bonus" or "Bonus Sub" or something similar in front of the bonus substitution. Pokemon with the Color Change ability are more adept at changing types, so this bonus substitution is not granted when facing a Pokemon with both Color Change and Protean.

(changes in bold)


Both proposals 1 and 2 take away 2 of Greninja's +5 BAP on everything while still allowing Greninja to use Protean's offensive capabilities. Proposal 1 incorporates Gerard's suggestion to make Greninja use more energy. I know people wanted it to cost 2 EN to change types, but I made it 3 because that's the EN increase from Skill Link and I feel Protean is comparable to Skill Link power-wise. Proposal 2 incorporates Frosty's idea to give mons facing Greninja an extra sub, giving some good counterplay. Proposal 3 has both the EN increase and the extra sub, but leaves Greninja with its Protean+Rare Candy shenanigans, whereas Proposal 4 is the most nerfed out of all of these, incorporating both the EN cost and extra sub to the opp, and also taking away the Rare Candy part of the Rare Candy+Protean tag team. All of these proposals still let Greninja get STAB on every move, but I feel like that's OK because that's an integral part of how the ability functions ingame.

I still don't think Greninja needs a nerf but I'm clearly in the minority so that's all I'll say with regards to that.

 

[Frosty]

le bump


can we get back to this?

 

[Its_A_Random]

48 hours.

How should we hit Greninja?
Adjust Rare Candy so it only boosts the Pokémon's original type
Raise the EC of type changing through Protean by three (3)
Make it so Rare Candy Boosts is checked before changing types
Make it so the STAB check for Protean (without Color Change) is performed before the type change (and by extension, Rare Candy)
Do nothing

#1 was the Dogfish suggestion in feedback. #2 is Gerard's proposal. #3 is the Rare Candy rewording that I had proposed. #4 is Frosty's amendments to what I proposed (which I agree is a much cleaner way to do what I proposed). I didn't include Geodude's due to lack of discussion and the fact that they are ridiculously wordy. Do nothing is... do nothing.

While we are at it:

Do we make it official that people are allowed to sub for a Pokémon (not) being a specific typing?
Yes
No

I am not even sure the subs for mon being some typing (and by extension, not being a specific typing) is legal so I guess this makes that fully legal and in writing?

Do we change Rare Candy so that Pokémon with two or more typings have all STAB's boosted by one (1)?
Yes
No

Simple clarification, really. Just deals with Forest's Curse/Trick or Treat scenarios if anything and we might as well deal with this while we are at it.

I guess the first slate isn't final but we need a bit of urgency in this regard especially given the LCT is just about to start.

 

[Maxim]

Overall the slate looks good. However, I feel like the first question should be adjusted to allow for multiple nerfs to Greninja if the Council feels it necessary. The way the question is worded now seems like we can only pick one of those options. Obviously you'd have to separate the stuff that wouldn't work with each other (choosing Do Nothing precludes doing anything, choosing #3 means #1 can't happen, etc).

Just my one cent on the matter, I agree with everything else on the slate.

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

Very minor but im assuming
"Raise the EC of type changing via protean by 3" really means EN?

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Very minor but im assuming
"Raise the EC of type changing via protean by 3" really means EN?

EC = Energy Cost, so yes.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Overall the slate looks good. However, I feel like the first question should be adjusted to allow for multiple nerfs to Greninja if the Council feels it necessary. The way the question is worded now seems like we can only pick one of those options. Obviously you'd have to separate the stuff that wouldn't work with each other (choosing Do Nothing precludes doing anything, choosing #3 means #1 can't happen, etc).

Just my one cent on the matter, I agree with everything else on the slate.

It's a legitimate concern but the reasoning for keeping the first question simple and just giving four options besides the status quo is because I would rather keep things simple and not risk nerfing Greninja way too hard (Imagine if we voted in Frosty's reimagining of my proposal AND Gerard's proposal in different questions) and make a Frankenstein's butchering of the nerf as well as keeping the voting process from going on for too long. I mean it is certainly possible that we can do Gerard's proposal as a different question altogether but that opens up dependencies (which one should we do first) and makes the voting process a lot longer which can affect new Gyms and maybe even Round One of the LCT if we are too slow. Yeah it might be a bit of scaremongering but I would rather not do a mix-and-match approach to nerfing as opposed to a conservative "pick a way to nerf Greninja" slate which allows us to pick an option already discussed.

I mean if there is enough demand to do a mix-and-match slate in the next 13 hours then maybe.

 

[Its_A_Random]

No more concerns? Okay then. Time for the council to decide the ultimate fate of "Skill Frog".

And the other minor things.