Pokémon Greninja

[master_marshmallow]

Is Naive or Hasty more common on current ninja sets?
Seems like Naive to me because physical defense is more commonly needed.
There in lies your ninja counter, anything bulky that can hit it on the special side.

What are the calcs on rotom w vs ninja with grass knot?

 

[ThePack]

Is Naive or Hasty more common on current ninja sets?
Seems like Naive to me because physical defense is more commonly needed.
There in lies your ninja counter, anything bulky that can hit it on the special side.

What are the calcs on rotom w vs ninja with grass knot?

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 70-86 (23 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a calc with the standard Rotom-W Defensive Pivot Set, however, this is pre-ORAS, with Max SpA Timid.

If you take into account that most run 44 Atk:
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 65-81 (21.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seems like a nice check? The low damage is mostly due to Rotom-W's infinitesimal weight. Now, try the same with HP Grass.

Pre-ORAS Greninja:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 205-244 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Post-ORAS Greninja:
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 198-237 (65.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The other problem that arises is how can Rotom-W retaliate to a Grass type Greninja?

Also, as an aside, I think Naive is usually chosen, because the usual way to take care of Greninja is to use priority Mach Punch from Loom/AV Conkeldurr, and you need the extra defense to avoid the guaranteed OHKO from a Jolly Loom's Mach Punch. That is unless the Greninja carries Shadow Sneak

 

[master_marshmallow]

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 70-86 (23 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a calc with the standard Rotom-W Defensive Pivot Set, however, this is pre-ORAS, with Max SpA Timid.

If you take into account that most run 44 Atk:
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 65-81 (21.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seems like a nice check? The low damage is mostly due to Rotom-W's infinitesimal weight. Now, try the same with HP Grass.

Pre-ORAS Greninja:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 205-244 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Post-ORAS Greninja:
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 198-237 (65.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The other problem that arises is how can Rotom-W retaliate to a Grass type Greninja?

Also, as an aside, I think Naive is usually chosen, because the usual way to take care of Greninja is to use priority Mach Punch from Loom/AV Conkeldurr, and you need the extra defense to avoid the guaranteed OHKO from a Jolly Loom's Mach Punch. That is unless the Greninja carries Shadow Sneak

I have heard that HP Ice rotom was a thing, but I do believe that was to attempt to survive mega Mence. Ice however is usually good coverage for electric types.

Physically defensive rotom probably doesn't care too much about Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, or Grass Knot. Dark Pulse seems like the only viable move to worry about which makes me like rotom as a check at least. I have never seen anyone talk about Hidden Power on ninja other than Fire, and with Grass Knot in the move pool, why would you ever run HP Grass?

 

[ThePack]

I have heard that HP Ice rotom was a thing, but I do believe that was to attempt to survive mega Mence. Ice however is usually good coverage for electric types.

Physically defensive rotom probably doesn't care too much about Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, or Grass Knot. Dark Pulse seems like the only viable move to worry about which makes me like rotom as a check at least. I have never seen anyone talk about Hidden Power on ninja other than Fire, and with Grass Knot in the move pool, why would you ever run HP Grass?

I agree there's no real reason to run HP Grass > Grass Knot or HP Fire for that matter, and given how much Grass Knot does to mons like Gyarados. However, around the 1450's I've run into 2 Greninja's running HP Grass > HP Fire.

Rotom-W is a relatively reliable check, don't think it'll switch in to it though :[

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Consignia]

I have heard that HP Ice rotom was a thing, but I do believe that was to attempt to survive mega Mence. Ice however is usually good coverage for electric types.

Physically defensive rotom probably doesn't care too much about Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, or Grass Knot. Dark Pulse seems like the only viable move to worry about which makes me like rotom as a check at least. I have never seen anyone talk about Hidden Power on ninja other than Fire, and with Grass Knot in the move pool, why would you ever run HP Grass?

Grass Knot doesn't hurt Rotom-W and Manaphy. Manaphy in particular is a very solid answer to non-HP Grass Greninja that has seen a good deal of popularity on the higher end of the ladder. On most other water types, HP Grass vs. Grass Knot is a wash, both score the same one and 2hkos, the only major difference being Mega Gyarados and the Suicune matchup (HP Grass needs stealth rock to 2hko Suicune, Grass Knot doesn't). Rotom-W is 2hkoed by Dark Pulse but HP Grass greatly eases prediction since HP Grass + random resisted coverage that Rotom eats on the switch will generally 2hko

HP Grass is a perfectly valid option provided you don't need HP Fire.

 

[ThePack]

Grass Knot doesn't hurt Rotom-W and Manaphy. Manaphy in particular is a very solid answer to non-HP Grass Greninja that has seen a good deal of popularity on the higher end of the ladder. On most other water types, HP Grass vs. Grass Knot is a wash, both score the same one and 2hkos, the only major difference being Mega Gyarados and the Suicune matchup (HP Grass needs stealth rock to 2hko Suicune, Grass Knot doesn't). Rotom-W is 2hkoed by Dark Pulse but HP Grass greatly eases prediction since HP Grass + random resisted coverage that Rotom eats on the switch will generally 2hko

HP Grass is a perfectly valid option provided you don't need HP Fire.

I agree, however it does kinda "waste" a Hidden Power slot. HP Fire provides amazing coverage, nailing other mons like Scizor, Ferrothorn and Magnezone, which commonly switch into Ice Beams or Hydro's (in the case of Ferrothorn).
You do have a good point though, at times like these, I wish Greninja had five moveslots...

 

[Vengeance417]

I said this in the Mega Diancie thread, but the problem I have with HP Fire is the IV point you lose in Speed, which means that you'll automatically lose in a test of speed with other Greninja not running HP Fire. It's nice coverage, I'm not going to lie, but it sucks when you and your enemy is down to a Greninja each, and you lose the battle simply due to a single stat point.

 

[Yamborski]

I said this in the Mega Diancie thread, but the problem I have with HP Fire is the IV point you lose in Speed, which means that you'll automatically lose in a test of speed with other Greninja not running HP Fire. It's nice coverage, I'm not going to lie, but it sucks when you and your enemy is down to a Greninja each, and you lose the battle simply due to a single stat point.

It's generally an acceptable loss when you also get to incinerate Ferrothorn. Then again it gets Low Kick now so I guess that's usable now too?

 

[ThePack]

I said this in the Mega Diancie thread, but the problem I have with HP Fire is the IV point you lose in Speed, which means that you'll automatically lose in a test of speed with other Greninja not running HP Fire. It's nice coverage, I'm not going to lie, but it sucks when you and your enemy is down to a Greninja each, and you lose the battle simply due to a single stat point.

Ah yes, I forgot about that. Good point. Although, one could make the argument that the occurance of a Ferrothorn getting nailed by HP Fire would be more frequent than a Greninja v Greninja showdown. Hence, one could argue that the utility gained from HP Fire would outweigh its lost speed IV point.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

To address these two points
- Mega Sceptile is perfectly viable outside of checking Greninja. Also makes for an effective cleaner, and can fit onto Rain teams as the electric immunity.
- Scarf Ninja was only used during the Mega Mence meta. Outside checking the now banned dragon, Scarf Greninja is a sub-par set because it loses out on Greninja's greatest asset, which is STAB coverage power.

Defenses aren't as exploitable as they seem, but they pretty much mean outspeeding Greninja is the only thing necessary to check it, since any hit will take a decent chunk. Combine that with Greninja's dependence on LO, and thus recoil, plus hazards, and every turn where it does get walled comes at some minor cost to Greninja.

Not saying Greninja isn't suspect worthy (not ban worthy IMO though), but he does have legitimate flaws that can be played around, albeit a bit carefully, without resorting to gimmicks or sub-par mons solely as other suspects did (Scarf Ninja and P2 for Mega Mence, Defensive Arcanine for Mawile, hell Moltres was considered sometimes for Mega Lucario).

Yeah, but outspeeding Greninja is hard. What outspeeds it besides scarfers? Weavile? Mega Sceptile? And pika pal I wasn't saying Mega Sceptile wasn't viable - I should know, since I did an analysis on him (that was locked, but my point still stands). I'm just saying I don't want to run a specific mega for the specific purpose of checking Greninja if I'm using another one. Greninja loses its health quickly, but something ALWAYS goes down to a Greninja. Almost always. Seriously, the only true counter must resist Psychic, Fire, Grass, Water, Dark, and have good HP and Sp. Defense. But wait, it also must have good physical defense and resist Poison and Fighting.

His defenses aren't good. Yeah, that's his flaw. But Aegislash, though a completely different mon, had his flaws too. He was pretty predictable, and weak to Knock Off, while with Greninja, you don't know WHICH one of his million coverage moves he carries. And like I said before, I got no time to Protect-spam to see. It just seems like I have to overprepare for the blasted frog.

 

[56k]

Porygon2 really isn't a disservice to offensive teams at all and I think he's being unjustifiably hated on. It's a lot like a hippowdon or a chansey, both can fit perfectly fine on an otherwise extremely offensive team just to simply ease prediction and they pack just barely enough offensive moves to actually threaten a few things and they also have universally useful utility moves. It's a pretty empty complaint to say "I play offense P2 is not viable" when you could just use 5 offensive threats anyway and have porygon for safety.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Porygon2 really isn't a disservice to offensive teams at all and I think he's being unjustifiably hated on. It's a lot like a hippowdon or a chansey, both can fit perfectly fine on an otherwise extremely offensive team just to simply ease prediction and they pack just barely enough offensive moves to actually threaten a few things and they also have universally useful utility moves. It's a pretty empty complaint to say "I play offense P2 is not viable" when you could just use 5 offensive threats anyway and have porygon for safety.

Yeah, but you shouldn't need to run Porygon2 for safety. Hippowdon actually has Stealth Rock + Whirlwind and a usable Attack stat, and Chansey has better (special) bulk.

 

[preserve]

And you're absolutely right. The only true counters to Greninja are not even viable to use on offensive and balance teams, and I'm surely not changing to STALL so I can just not care about Greninja anymore. With so many moves, it has so many possible sets. Hydro Pump, Hidden Power Fire, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Extrasensory, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse...I can go on and on. Each one of those coverage moves dismantles SOMETHING because of Protean: Hidden Power Fire burns Ferrothorn to death, Gunk Shot murders fairies, Low Kick murders Ferrothorn and Empoleon, Extrasensory murders Venusaur, Grass Knot murders water-types like Suicune, and Dark Pulse murders Slowbro. Sure, it's got bad defenses. But that doesn't matter - Greninja is so effecient at what it does that its defenses almost don't matter. I get when someone says "oh it's frail so it's not ban-worthy imo" but I find myself, when making teams, thinking "darn, how am I gonna get rid of that blasted frog" or "oh dang it, i'm weak to ninja, better redo the team" before anything else.

Too bad it can't run all those moves at once, meaning it can't get rid of everyone of its would be checks/counters every single time. Everyone worries about playing against this thing, but don't realize when you are using it you have to make a decision of which coverage moves to give it. It's a double-edged sword. We at least know its going to use at least hydro pump and ice beam on the special set (the most common set) so you at least have a better chance at guessing what it's final two moves are. And if you are good enough you can make an educated guess on it's coverage moves based on team preview.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Too bad it can't run all those moves at once, meaning it can't get rid of everyone of its would be checks/counters every single time. Everyone worries about playing against this thing, but don't realize when you are using it you have to make a decision of which coverage moves to give it. It's a double-edged sword. We at least know its going to use at least hydro pump and ice beam on the special set (the most common set) so you at least have a better chance at guessing what it's final two moves are. And if you are good enough you can make an educated guess on it's coverage moves based on team preview.

What? No, there are plenty of people running Greninja without Hydro Pump. It's still viable, but far from mandatory. Ice Beam and Gunk Shot are pretty much the only moves on Greninja that are mandatory.

Also, can we stop saying 4MSS is bad? 4MSS is a good thing. Aegislash didn't have 4MSS, and Aegislash was certainly powerful, but it was predictable. Pokemon with 4MSS (like Greninja) are unpredictable. I had a team in late BW OU that utilized Swords Dance Lucario with Bullet Punch. This team got me into the top 100, and even when I was high on the ladder, people thought they could use Terrakion or Gengar to stop my Lucario sweep, only for their plans to be foiled when I revealed Bullet Punch. And that's the power of 4MSS, and it certainly applies to Greninja as well; you might be preserving your Alomomola to wall Greninja, only for that plan to be foiled when Greninja ends up having HP Grass or Grass Knot. With predictable, non-4MSS Pokemon like, I dunno, Mega Pinsir? You can feel secure in that preserving, say, your Skarmory, will keep you safe from Mega Pinsir. Not the case with Pokemon that have 4MSS. I'm kind of sick of explaining to people that having many options is good for a Pokemon, and Greninja is certainly not an exception.

 

[River Martini]

i've been using a set that someone posted a few pages ago which is ice beam / low kick / gunk shot / dark pulse. And it's working amazing for me.

 

[preserve]

What? No, there are plenty of people running Greninja without Hydro Pump. It's still viable, but far from mandatory. Ice Beam and Gunk Shot are pretty much the only moves on Greninja that are mandatory.

Also, can we stop saying 4MSS is bad? 4MSS is a good thing. Aegislash didn't have 4MSS, and Aegislash was certainly powerful, but it was predictable. Pokemon with 4MSS (like Greninja) are unpredictable. I had a team in late BW OU that utilized Swords Dance Lucario with Bullet Punch. This team got me into the top 100, and even when I was high on the ladder, people thought they could use Terrakion or Gengar to stop my Lucario sweep, only for their plans to be foiled when I revealed Bullet Punch. And that's the power of 4MSS, and it certainly applies to Greninja as well; you might be preserving your Alomomola to wall Greninja, only for that plan to be foiled when Greninja ends up having HP Grass or Grass Knot. With predictable, non-4MSS Pokemon like, I dunno, Mega Pinsir? You can feel secure in that preserving, say, your Skarmory, will keep you safe from Mega Pinsir. Not the case with Pokemon that have 4MSS. I'm kind of sick of explaining to people that having many options is good for a Pokemon, and Greninja is certainly not an exception.

I never said 4MSS is bad, but as mentioned in my last post it has its drawbacks.

 

[deuntre4]

Too bad it can't run all those moves at once, meaning it can't get rid of everyone of its would be checks/counters every single time. Everyone worries about playing against this thing, but don't realize when you are using it you have to make a decision of which coverage moves to give it. It's a double-edged sword. We at least know its going to use at least hydro pump and ice beam on the special set (the most common set) so you at least have a better chance at guessing what it's final two moves are. And if you are good enough you can make an educated guess on it's coverage moves based on team preview.

Team preview isn't that reliable for guessing the coverage moves and a lot greninjas are ditching hydro pump for Gunk Shot so it not guarantee to run that. Plus some of greninja moves can cover the same threats to your team such as heatran with low kick or hydro pump or ferrothorn with low kick or hidden powered fire so you might make get screwed overed if your guess is wrong after your "counter or check" dies

 

[FireArrow]

Also, can we stop saying 4MSS is bad? 4MSS is a good thing. Aegislash didn't have 4MSS, and Aegislash was certainly powerful, but it was predictable. Pokemon with 4MSS (like Greninja) are unpredictable. I had a team in late BW OU that utilized Swords Dance Lucario with Bullet Punch. This team got me into the top 100, and even when I was high on the ladder, people thought they could use Terrakion or Gengar to stop my Lucario sweep, only for their plans to be foiled when I revealed Bullet Punch. And that's the power of 4MSS, and it certainly applies to Greninja as well; you might be preserving your Alomomola to wall Greninja, only for that plan to be foiled when Greninja ends up having HP Grass or Grass Knot. With predictable, non-4MSS Pokemon like, I dunno, Mega Pinsir? You can feel secure in that preserving, say, your Skarmory, will keep you safe from Mega Pinsir. Not the case with Pokemon that have 4MSS. I'm kind of sick of explaining to people that having many options is good for a Pokemon, and Greninja is certainly not an exception.

Good or bad, greninja doesn't have 4MSS. 4MSS is when a Pokemon has more mandatory moves than it has move slots. Greninja doesn't have 4MSS, like you said - he just has a lot of options.

 

[ThePack]

I would argue that it does have 4MSS. 4MSS is defined well by Deck Knight as "a trait a pokemon possesses if it has more than 4 equally or similarly viable unique options outside of STAB attacks." Some could argue that Greninja does have 4MSS as it has an amazingly diverse movepool, the majority of which are all of near equal viability. On another note, it has Protean, which means that every attack has STAB. So it is quite a unique case.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Honestly, it hardly has 4MSS. It has pretty much two moves it needs to have, and two moves it carries for the team. Also, this "4MSS" plays well into Greninja's hands as it leaves the opponent completely unaware as to what 1-2 of its moves are, making it difficult as all hell to properly counter if even possible, especially with some of the sets being ran now. They're hardly even counters anymore.

 

[FireArrow]

I don't like Deck Knights definition, becuase then you could argue that Greninja has it. Infact, you could argue pretty much any pokemon with a decent movepool has it, and if 4MSS is supposed to be a drawback (as the smogon pokedex would suggest), then being synonymous to "big vocabulary movepool" hardly makes sense.

 

[master_marshmallow]

I have no doubts that this Mon has great potential. I am leaning towards his best set being something like:
Hydro Pump
Dark Pulse
Gunk Shot
Ice Beam

Low Kick has little use outside of Tyranitar imo as it's a neutral hit on something like ferrothorn is also achieved with Ice Beam. Other bulky rock types are hit by Hydro Pump, other steel types take neutral hits from Dark Pulse, which is increasingly important with Bro around.
HP fire is used mainly for ferro and scizor and those threats are usually covered by something else on the team also. Grass Knot is mostly weak coverage since Hydro Pump takes care of almost everything you pack it for. Rotom and/or Swampert are three only things that really call for grass coverage making it less useful.

 

[Celticpride]

I have no doubts that this Mon has great potential. I am leaning towards his best set being something like:
Hydro Pump
Dark Pulse
Gunk Shot
Ice Beam

Low Kick has little use outside of Tyranitar imo as it's a neutral hit on something like ferrothorn is also achieved with Ice Beam. Other bulky rock types are hit by Hydro Pump, other steel types take neutral hits from Dark Pulse, which is increasingly important with Bro around.
HP fire is used mainly for ferro and scizor and those threats are usually covered by something else on the team also. Grass Knot is mostly weak coverage since Hydro Pump takes care of almost everything you pack it for. Rotom and/or Swampert are three only things that really call for grass coverage making it less useful.

Low Kick hits Ferro super effectively. It also does more damage to SDef Heatran than Hydro Pump and Empoleon hard as well. Your underestimating how much Low Kick hits.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Low Kick hits Ferro super effectively. It also does more damage to SDef Heatran than Hydro Pump and Empoleon hard as well. Your underestimating how much Low Kick hits.

And KyuB.

Anyways, I have been watching a buddy of mine use the Ninja Set posted by Jaguar360 a couple pages back (I refuse to use this tumor) and I've gotta say, that thing is ridiculous. By far the best set I have seen this thing run. It 2HKOs the entire metagame outside of P2, while being nearly impossible to freely switch into.
In short, it's absolutely ridiculous and just goes against Ninja's case of not being borderline borked.

 

[The Big Aristotle]

I'm very anti-Hydro Pump at this point, and I see very little reason to run it. Ice Beam and Low Kick cover pretty much everything it used to hit, and you don't have to deal with HP's shaky accuracy either. I think the standard Ninja set should be (and probably is, by now):

Gunk Shot
Ice Beam
Dark Pulse/Extrasensory
Low Kick

...So basically the set Jaguar posted, but with Extrasensory slashed for stuff like Tentacruel and Conk. I'm really starting to wonder whether or not this thing is getting too powerful for OU -- at this point, I run T-Flame on basically all my teams as it's the only surefire way to check it in this meta.