Pokémon Greninja

[Karxrida]

The slippery slope argument isn't fallacious if the result is obvious to all parties involved (something else that's staple in the meta becomes the next overpowered centerpiece of this discussion.) See also, gen4 Salamence after Garchomp got the axe. Slippery slope is a fallacy, when it's used for baseless caution- my point is more that the aftermath of banning Gren won't have the desired effect, the same way that most bannings don't have the effects that most people who complain are looking for.

Salamence would have been axed regardless of Garchomp's banning, and for it to not be a fallacy you have to prove 100% that something will come of it. You have not provided 100% proof that something (I think you were talking about Lando being broken, but your wording was really shitty so idk) will be broken if Greninja was to be banned, so your argument if fallacious (and would probably still be anyway because you're not arguing against Greninja being broken).

Edit by Haunter: inappropriate language and against the rules.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I think you missed my point. Which is that the banhammer wouldn't solve the meta problem- whether or not we consider the Therian Lando minutia etc. Gren is overpowered, but something always is because removing one overpowered thing opens up the void for the next best thing to skew the balance in a different way.

I was wondering when the slippery slopes would show their hideous faces. . .
The problem with that logic is, to be frank, it's complete bullshit. The same was said post Mawile ban, and what happened? Nothing was banned. Nothing was seen as ban-worthy, and the meta was fairly well off aside from a few things here and there (geopass) that didn't horrifically centralize the metagame anyway.
It wasn't until ORAS that things shook up yet again. So let's not go there.

Greninja is broken beyond repair, that much is clear, and whether or not X mon will be over powered after Ninja goes is completely irrelevant to Greninja's case. This is about Greninja and Greninja alone, how TFlame, or Mega Lopunny or any fast offensive 'mons doesn't mean anything. Aside from their awesome power, there is nothing broken about them. They have a well-sized amount of checks and counters that are easier to fit on teams, have glaring weaknesses (I'm not talking type wise) among other things. Greninja's only weak point is it can't OHKO the entire meta and has to settle with 2HKO'ing instead.

 

[Mr. Degradation]

I was wondering when the slippery slopes would show their hideous faces. . .
The problem with that logic is, to be frank, it's complete bullshit. The same was said post Mawile ban, and what happened? Nothing was banned. Nothing was seen as ban-worthy, and the meta was fairly well off aside from a few things here and there (geopass) that didn't horrifically centralize the metagame anyway.
It wasn't until ORAS that things shook up yet again. So let's not go there.

Greninja is broken beyond repair, that much is clear, and whether or not X mon will be over powered after Ninja goes is completely irrelevant to Greninja's case. This is about Greninja and Greninja alone, how TFlame, or Mega Lopunny or any fast offensive 'mons doesn't mean anything. Aside from their awesome power, there is nothing broken about them. They have a well-sized amount of checks and counters that are easier to fit on teams, have glaring weaknesses (I'm not talking type wise) among other things. Greninja's only weak point is it can't OHKO the entire meta and has to settle with 2HKO'ing instead.

The "you're wrong, Gren is broken" argument doesn't bother me so much- but your example does.

Mega-Maw was the last of the XY bannings, but that slippery slope effect did occur with 4 items, and 1 OU threat over a year's time, and ORAS came out a month later. When the usage data comes in, and the suspect status is tested, then it makes sense to have this discussion. But I don't see how it's complete bullshit to be suspicious of banning as an answer to the meta problem that Gren poses at the moment.

Banning is a heavy handed answer, and until the usage data and suspect tests begin again, it's just another community crapstorm.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

The "you're wrong, Gren is broken" argument doesn't bother me so much- but your example does.

Mega-Maw was the last of the XY bannings, but that slippery slope effect did occur with 4 items, and 1 OU threat over a year's time, and ORAS came out a month later. When the usage data comes in, and the suspect status is tested, then it makes sense to have this discussion. But I don't see how it's complete bullshit to be suspicious of banning as an answer to the meta problem that Gren poses at the moment.

Banning is a heavy handed answer, and until the usage data and suspect tests begin again, it's just another community crapstorm.

This argument really has nothing to do with Greninja and should really be dropped. However, as a general philosophy Smogon has and always will take an unknown meta over a meta with a known toxic element. Further, had ORAS not been released, there would not have been any suspects because the meta at that point was considered reasonably balanced by the OU council and most of the player base. Thus, you can't say, "Oh, the slippery slope argument is valid because multiple stuff was banned". There was no "slippery slope"; X stuff was broken, so we banned X stuff. We tend not to ban things at the same time because often times broken mons choke out mons that are still broken but to a lesser degree. This is especially true of this generation since most of the stuff that was banned involved Megas, and since you can't use multiples in one fight, obviously Megas are going to be banned in a linear fashion rather than in mass. After all, why use Mega Mawile when you can use Mega Khan, and why use Mega Mawile when you can use Mega Lucario? Obviously it's impossible to measure the brokenness of multiple Megas at once because of their inherit opportunity cost. Ultimately, what you witnessed was not the "slippery slope", it was broken things that, by their very nature, could not surface until something more broken was banned first.

If you want to keep arguing this, we should probably take this to a private conversation so as not to keep clogging up the thread.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Mega-Maw was the last of the XY bannings, but that slippery slope effect did occur with 4 items, and 1 OU threat over a year's time, and ORAS came out a month later. When the usage data comes in, and the suspect status is tested, then it makes sense to have this discussion. But I don't see how it's complete bullshit to be suspicious of banning as an answer to the meta problem that Gren poses at the moment.

Firstly, I didn't say you were wrong, we weren't talking about how or why Greninja is unhealthy.
Second,That isn't the bullshit. The bullshit comes into play when you say we're just going to have more broken things get suspects after this one. Which we have shown you is not always the case.

I'm not going to step on Sanger Zonvolt's toes and repeat what was stated since it was well versed.

Now, if you can explain to me what about Greninja is balanced, we can continue this. Otherwise, we're done here.

 

[Karxrida]

This argument really has nothing to do with Greninja and should really be dropped. However, as a general philosophy Smogon has and always will take an unknown meta over a meta with a known toxic element. Further, had ORAS not been released, there would not have been any suspects because the meta at that point was considered reasonably balanced by the OU council and most of the player base. Thus, you can't say, "Oh, the slippery slope argument is valid because multiple stuff was banned". There was no "slippery slope"; X stuff was broken, so we banned X stuff. We tend not to ban things at the same time because often times broken mons choke out mons that are still broken but to a lesser degree. This is especially true of this generation since most of the stuff that was banned involved Megas, and since you can't use multiples in one fight, obviously Megas are going to be banned in a linear fashion rather than in mass. After all, why use Mega Mawile when you can use Mega Khan, and why use Mega Mawile when you can use Mega Lucario? Obviously it's impossible to measure the brokenness of multiple Megas at once because of their inherit opportunity cost. Ultimately, what you witnessed was not the "slippery slope", it was broken things that, by their very nature, could not surface until something more broken was banned first.

If you want to keep arguing this, we should probably take this to a private conversation so as not to keep clogging up the thread.

I agree with your general point, but I'd like point out that Greninja was still an issue back in late XY to the point that some people were calling for a suspect. Nothing came of it because ORAS was too close and Fairies were considered to be consistent enough answers that it was pretty borderline suspect (at the time).

Superb argument you have there. Anyways, if you read my posts you would know that I actually agree with this point.

I don't need to make a wall of text explaining my view when others have already done so (plus I've already did one myself somewhere on this thread or somewhere else). I also know that you agree, I was just pointing out answer for dealing with it was shitty.

 

[56k]

It seems like a pokemon that is far too effective: almost all of the good pokemon are in the 90-110 speed tier and greninja can thoughtlessly just pick 4 moves that covers the ones that your bad team otherwise doesn't. But at the same time, a decent selection of bulky waters and bulky normals pretty much handle it easily because it just doesn't hit nearly as hard as the greater threats out there. I don't know how to feel about it, it seems to reward lazy teambuilding because, taking prior damage into account, it can be a guaranteed check to everything slower than it. But from a defensive perspective it's actually pretty weak if you actually use some walls on your team. Not to mention all the great stuff out there that just outspeeds it.

 

[Random Passerby]

It seems like a pokemon that is far too effective: almost all of the good pokemon are in the 90-110 speed tier and greninja can thoughtlessly just pick 4 moves that covers the ones that your bad team otherwise doesn't. But at the same time, a decent selection of bulky waters and bulky normals pretty much handle it easily because it just doesn't hit nearly as hard as the greater threats out there. I don't know how to feel about it, it seems to reward lazy teambuilding because, taking prior damage into account, it can be a guaranteed check to everything slower than it. But from a defensive perspective it's actually pretty weak if you actually use some walls on your team. Not to mention all the great stuff out there that just outspeeds it.

Pretty weak? Hello, we are talking about a mon with a whatever -ate ability on ALL of its moves. The attacking stats may look low but the Ability buffs up its ability to do damage significantly and it can pretty much 2HKO the entire meta with the right move (and it has a great movepool either) . For bonus points, none of the viable moves existance imply that another coverage is not in Gren's arsenal (except the case of Extrasensory vs Dark Pulse) so you've got to pray that you've got H Pump, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Grass Knot, Hidden Power Fire, Extrasensory and Dark Pulse all covered (and it can even be cheesy and run U-turn / Spikes). Point is, Greninja has a great ability and solid movepool options to back it up.

Bulky normals? Even Chansey gets 2HKO by LO Low Kick (with attack investment) so I don't know what other Pokemon you're suggesting here except Porygon2 who only really fits into balanced and stall teams. Bulky water is a good check IF Greninja isn't carrying Grass Knot (or you're using Rotom-W in which case you get 2HKO by Gunk Shot / Dark Pulse / Extrasensory). Empoleon, the other bulky water gets destroyed by Low Kick. Add that to the fact that pretty much the only thing that outspeeds it are Megas and Scarfed mons, you've got a pretty broken Pokemon in OU.

 

[56k]

For waters spdef gyarados is really great but tentacruel, empoleon, alomomola, and vaporeon handle the different variations. I guess if they're running more than 40 attack evs now then chansey does run more risk than before. Beyond porygon2 there's also snorlax for any set without low kick (which I'm curious to what extent has really caught on?). On top of these are things like venusaur and ferrothorn: but again all unfortunately set-dependent.

Anyway I say "weak" in a relative sense because I speak from a more stall perspective where I typically have 2 pokemon that can switch into it. A huge amount of other pokemon with a life orb, or any wallbreaker, are way more dangerous. With that in mind, it seems "fair" to me that while stall has to deal with stuff like heracross and manaphy, offense in turn has to deal with greninja. I think that calling him broken because he can outspeed and ohko the common pokemon on offensive teams is a bit flawed of an argument because it's very possible that his role as an "offense breaker" is equivalent to the standard role of "wall breaker". HOWEVER, I think that he might well be broken anyway just based on the level of effectiveness that he has vs thought or skill required. You don't even need to consider if your team can check common threats, you just use greninja with whatever coverage moves and you're safe against anything that doesn't boost its speed.

 

[haunter]

Firstly, I didn't say you were wrong, we weren't talking about how or why Greninja is unhealthy.
Second,That isn't the bullshit. The bullshit comes into play when you say we're just going to have more broken things get suspects after this one. Which we have shown you is not always the case.

I'm not going to step on Sanger Zonvolt's toes and repeat what was stated since it was well versed.

Now, if you can explain to me what about Greninja is balanced, we can continue this. Otherwise, we're done here.

You're not supposed to talk about how Greninja is balanced or unbalanced in this thread. If Greninja gets suspect tested, a dedicated thread will be posted to host this kind of discussion. Until that day, stop arguing on whether Greninja is broken or not, cause it's not the point of this thread and it's against the rules of this forum.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

That was more so what I was trying to go with, but whatever.
I was more so trying to steer the conversation away from the slippery slope talk.

Anyway, for the sake of not making this solely about me pointlessly defending myself, I've noticed that even when you've prepped for Greninja. You really haven't. I'm not sure if it's just my dumb luck, but if I carry Tenta, the first second and third ninja I see have Extrasensory. People say it doesn't carry X move much, but I've noticed you can never look at a Greninja and know what it's 4 moves are. With the fact it's so obscenely difficult to switch things in and such, I'm wondering how other people go about scouting this thing, or does everyone else just sort of cross their fingers like I do?

 

[Norne]

That was more so what I was trying to go with, but whatever.
I was more so trying to steer the conversation away from the slippery slope talk.

Anyway, for the sake of not making this solely about me pointlessly defending myself, I've noticed that even when you've prepped for Greninja. You really haven't. I'm not sure if it's just my dumb luck, but if I carry Tenta, the first second and third ninja I see have Extrasensory. People say it doesn't carry X move much, but I've noticed you can never look at a Greninja and know what it's 4 moves are. With the fact it's so obscenely difficult to switch things in and such, I'm wondering how other people go about scouting this thing, or does everyone else just sort of cross their fingers like I do?

That's pretty much how it goes, people claimed it has a 4MS syndrome in the past but now it only has 2 mandatory moves being icebeam and gunk while the other 2 are a full on gamble most likely done to screw any potential switch in you have against gren that could potentially hamper it's teammates. It doesn't need h pump anymore and that makes him a full on momentum killer to the part that didn't get gren safely first.

I can't deny it. If he lacks a move some stuff can handle him but the scouting part of it is what can cripple a team to the point switch ins become irrelevant. I feel that it's kinda promoting lazy teambuilding as an offensive force to the point some team archetypes need to gamble on the frog 2 coverage options due to its low risk high rewards nature.

But again I digress. Greninja just needs to coverage options to pummel it's would be checks and can severely cripple base 110 depending on its coverage. I have had great success with dark pulse and esensory foregoing h pump. Honestly the amount of Gyarados and suicune is so low GK seems an inferior option in this meta. H pump is nice but I'd rather use something else against tran and ttar since no one switches them in on ninja on fear of low kick pump, talking about low kick, we'll gunk can deal with the pink blob nicely if rocks are up and empoleon is a true rare sigth nowadays so I would skip LK unless you really hate scarf Ttar and need heat ran gone for a sweep. Since the first staple moves of gren can cover almost every relevant base 110-114 threat in OU.

 

[Jahordon]

Do you guys think MLopunny or MGallade makes a better partner as a wallbreaker for Greninja? I can't seem to decide on who I like more.

 

[Yanm]

Quick question. I've noticed in the suspect thread for Ninja that people are mentioning physical ninja isn't that viable because special is so much better. IIRC, the main difference is 40 atk/252 spe/216 spA, compared to what was posted on page 60 with 252 spe/12 spA/244 atk. There's probably something I'm missing, but I'm curious how the special version is better than the physical mixed, just because with physical, you only run into problems with Mega Venu, RestTalk Gyara and Alomamola.

 

[mertyville]

Guys, you remember Scarf Greninja during the Mence era? Could it still be viable in the current meta with a different spread?

I noticed that Greninja only needs 56 Spe EVs while holding Scarf to outrun stuff like Jolly Max Speed Aerodactyl and you still have 200 EV and 252 EVs for each attacking stat respectivly.
The downside: You are still hitting lighter because the lack of Life Orb so I guess running moves that guarantie killing centain threats of Greninja would be the smartest thing to do.

Greninja@Scarf
Ability: Protean
Nature: Rash
EVs: 56 Spe / 252 SpA / 200 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Hidden Power Fire

Ice Beam Calcs
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 628-744 (223.4 - 264.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 144-169 (52.9 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 157-186 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 254-300 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hydro Pump calcs
252+ SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 193-228 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 150-176 (50.5 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Low Kick Cals
200 Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 204-240 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 3HKO
200 Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 328-388 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 168-200 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gunk Shot Calcs
200 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 362-428 (104.9 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
200 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
200 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 186-219 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dark Pulse Calc
252+ SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 282-332 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Extrasensory Calc
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 282-332 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hidden Power Fire Calcs
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 280-336 (79.5 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Mega Scizor: 312-372 (90.9 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

It seems rather underwhelming, since you don't seem to get the necessary OHKOs you need which Life Orb offers, but I think it can work out against offensive checks of Greninja.
But I guess thats too gimmicky but I thought somebody might want find out some use for it if that can be used for Greninja to addapt to the current meta threats (I believe I used the worst case senarios for this set besides max HP/max Def Chansey).

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Quick question. I've noticed in the suspect thread for Ninja that people are mentioning physical ninja isn't that viable because special is so much better. IIRC, the main difference is 40 atk/252 spe/216 spA, compared to what was posted on page 60 with 252 spe/12 spA/244 atk. There's probably something I'm missing, but I'm curious how the special version is better than the physical mixed, just because with physical, you only run into problems with Mega Venu, RestTalk Gyara and Alomamola.

Generally, the issue with Physical Greninja is that Greninja's physical pool is worse than the special pool. With the exception of Gunk Shot you end up using attacks with a lower BP coming off a lower base attack, and there is almost nothing that Physical Greninja beats that Mixed Greninja can't. The only thing that comes to mind is Chansey, but you're trading raw power and coverage to beat one threat while risking being legitimately threatened by Burns and Intimidate.

 

[Jaroda]

There's no reason to use scarf Greninja these days when anything from scarf Lando-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, Latios, and even Gengar perform better in the role. Without LO Greninja becomes neutered against balance or BO teams, which its supposed to be good at. The pokemon above have enough raw power that they essentially already have the power LO provides for Greninja. There'd be no purpose other than to outspeed other scarfed pokemon but really, Scarf Latios is excellent right now with super effective STAB for Lopunny, Sceptile and Beedrill, and it assures you're faster than other 110 pokemon too like Gengar, Gallade and non-scarf Latios. Plus it can Trick it against Stall and still use Defog or a coverage move.

That said when Greninja does go, the favor ability seems overwhelming atm, Mega Metagross will benefit quite a bit, as Dark Pulse Greninja was a solid option to revenge Jolly versions. All of the 110 pokemon benefit actually, Latios, Mega Latias, Gengar, Mega Gallade, etc. And ironically, Emboar would actually increase in viability because it came merely ONE point slower than Greninja with a scarf, so that solves that issue lol.

 

[Windgrace]

There's no reason to use scarf Greninja these days when anything from scarf Lando-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, Latios, and even Gengar perform better in the role. Without LO Greninja becomes neutered against balance or BO teams, which its supposed to be good at. The pokemon above have enough raw power that they essentially already have the power LO provides for Greninja. There'd be no purpose other than to outspeed other scarfed pokemon but really, Scarf Latios is excellent right now with super effective STAB for Lopunny, Sceptile and Beedrill, and it assures you're faster than other 110 pokemon too like Gengar, Gallade and non-scarf Latios. Plus it can Trick it against Stall and still use Defog or a coverage move.

That said when Greninja does go, the favor ability seems overwhelming atm, Mega Metagross will benefit quite a bit, as Dark Pulse Greninja was a solid option to revenge Jolly versions. All of the 110 pokemon benefit actually, Latios, Mega Latias, Gengar, Mega Gallade, etc. And ironically, Emboar would actually increase in viability because it came merely ONE point slower than Greninja with a scarf, so that solves that issue lol.

Another Poke I think that will benefit (and possibly rise in use) from the ban of Greninja is Mega Slowbro.

 

[ajnauron]

There's no reason to use scarf Greninja these days when anything from scarf Lando-T, Garchomp, Keldeo, Latios, and even Gengar perform better in the role. Without LO Greninja becomes neutered against balance or BO teams, which its supposed to be good at. The pokemon above have enough raw power that they essentially already have the power LO provides for Greninja. There'd be no purpose other than to outspeed other scarfed pokemon but really, Scarf Latios is excellent right now with super effective STAB for Lopunny, Sceptile and Beedrill, and it assures you're faster than other 110 pokemon too like Gengar, Gallade and non-scarf Latios. Plus it can Trick it against Stall and still use Defog or a coverage move.

That said when Greninja does go, the favor ability seems overwhelming atm, Mega Metagross will benefit quite a bit, as Dark Pulse Greninja was a solid option to revenge Jolly versions. All of the 110 pokemon benefit actually, Latios, Mega Latias, Gengar, Mega Gallade, etc. And ironically, Emboar would actually increase in viability because it came merely ONE point slower than Greninja with a scarf, so that solves that issue lol.

That's because greninja is the only viable user of STAB Dark Pulse in OU, though there is stuff like Gengar and Thundurus that can use it as a decent coverage move. However, I don't think there will be a huge increase in the viability of the dark-weak base 110s because there's still tons of Knock Off and Bisharp's Sucker Punch holding them back. Dark gets fantastic neutral coverage and is incredibly spammable, it's fun to pack a Justified user, though you do need to watch out for what you switch into Terrakion, as Knock Off will turn Scarf Terrakion into +1 Terrakion and he'll lose the boost when he switches out.

 

[Karxrida]

That's because greninja is the only viable user of STAB Dark Pulse in OU, though there is stuff like Gengar and Thundurus that can use it as a decent coverage move. However, I don't think there will be a huge increase in the viability of the dark-weak base 110s because there's still tons of Knock Off and Bisharp's Sucker Punch holding them back. Dark gets fantastic neutral coverage and is incredibly spammable, it's fun to pack a Justified user, though you do need to watch out for what you switch into Terrakion, as Knock Off will turn Scarf Terrakion into +1 Terrakion and he'll lose the boost when he switches out.

Dark Pulse is literally useless on Gengar since Ghost has the same super effective coverage and gets STAB.

 

[haunter]

And RIP this thread.