1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Ubers Groudon (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Fireburn, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Overview
    ########

    Groudon is a powerful and versatile threat, boasting the ability to sweep efficiently with boosting moves in Rock Polish and Swords Dance, or to support the team with Stealth Rock, phazing, or status. Its high Defense allows it to act as a check to many prominent physical threats, such as Arceus and Zekrom, and its enormous Attack paired with STAB Earthquake makes it a lethal offensive threat as well. Drought is something else Groudon can use effectively, making it useful for temporarily pumping up the power of Fire-type moves for Pokemon such as Ho-Oh. However, it is held back by its modest Special Defense and Speed stats, and the nerf of Drought in Generation VI somewhat lessens Groudon's supporting capabilities. Nevertheless, Groudon remains the potent force it has always been for the past three generations in the Ubers metagame.

    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Lava Plume
    move 4: Toxic / Dragon Tail / Roar
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    nature: Impish

    Moves
    ========

    Earthquake is a powerful STAB move that hits hard thanks to Groudon's naturally high base Attack, despite having no investment. It is mandatory for properly dealing with threats such as Zekrom. Stealth Rock is a very useful support move for Groudon: it is one of the few viable users of the move in Ubers, and Groudon's bulk and typing usually give it ample chances to come in and set it up in battle. Stone Edge is very helpful, as it allows Groudon to OHKO Ho-Oh and significantly damage Yveltal, both of which are dangerous threats that could otherwise freely come in on Groudon. If these threats aren't of concern to your team, Lava Plume is also a solid option for allowing Groudon to KO Skarmory which can otherwise switch freely in on Groudon and use Defog to remove Stealth Rock, easily, while also hitting Landorus-T and potentially crippling it with a burn. However, Lava Plume is not recommended for use if Toxic is run in the last moveslot, as it still cripples Landorus-T and has more general utility.

    Speaking of the last moveslot, the choice between Toxic, Dragon Tail, and Roar can be difficult and is oftentimes dependent on what is more important to your team. Toxic pressures Defog users such as support Arceus formes, so they can't freely switch in on Groudon, and it cripples many of Groudon's other checks, such as Landorus-T and Lugia. Dragon Tail allows Groudon to phaze dangerous threats such as Arceus and Mega Mewtwo X, and is generally preferred over Roar, as it gets valuable chip damage on enemy Pokemon and is not blocked by Taunt. However, Roar has perfect accuracy and phazes Substitute users such as Ho-Oh, although Groudon will still need Stone Edge to check it.

    Set Details
    ========

    You will always want to fully invest in Groudon's bulk with the set, usually maximizing its Defense so that it can check physical threats as needed. Leftovers is the preferred item in most cases, as it is Groudon's only form of recovery. Lum Berry is also an option, as it gives Groudon one-time status protection and is useful against support Arceus formes, Ho-Oh, and lead Darkrai, but losing Leftovers recovery is usually not worth it. Heat Rock can be used if you're running a dedicated sun team to extend Drought's duration to eight turns rather than five, but this is only recommended if you are using sun-reliant Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X or Mega Houndoom. It also doesn't help that most Chlorophyll sweepers in Ubers are not worth using even if Drought were still permanent.

    An alternative EV spread for Groudon is 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD with a Careful nature. This makes Groudon surprisingly durable on the special side, making it a better check to mixed Zekrom, support Dialga, and Electric Arceus. Specially defensive Groudon can also take two Lustrous Orb-boosted Spacial Rends from Palkia at full health, making it useful as an emergency check. However, specially defensive Groudon is not nearly as good at checking the physical threats it is otherwise meant to.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Groudon can switch easily into physical attackers such as Zekrom, Tyranitar, Mega Lucario, Terrakion, and most Swords Dance Arceus formes, as well as bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Jirachi, giving it great opportunities to set up Stealth Rock, phaze, or spread status. It fits best on balanced or stall teams that need a physically bulky Pokemon which can set up Stealth Rock reliably. It can work on more offensively oriented teams, but support Groudon isn't as good at maintaining momentum, so it would be better to stick to the more offensively inclined sets.

    Deciding when to use Stealth Rock takes a bit more care than it might seem at first glance, as taking a turn to use the move can cost you a lot of momentum. Save it for when you predict the opponent to switch out or are in against something that doesn't threaten Groudon too much such as Tyranitar. More specifically, you should never use Stealth Rock in the face of Swords Dance Arceus and Ho-Oh, two horribly dangerous threats which Groudon usually only has enough bulk to check once (and it is a very risky switch-in to Ho-Oh regardless). Letting Groudon take a burn or sacrificing it just to set up Stealth Rock is also not advised if you still need Groudon to check something on the opponent's team, such as a Choice Scarf Zekrom. In general, don't play with Groudon too recklessly if you really need it to check something that might otherwise sweep your team.

    Drought isn't something you can actively make use of most of the time due to its short duration, but Groudon's good synergy with Fire-types such as Ho-Oh can potentially give you time to make use of it. It can also be used to help slow Kyogre's onslaught if you are having trouble against it, but switching Groudon directly into Kyogre is generally a terrible idea unless you are strongly predicting Thunder or have no other choice. Drought can also backfire on Groudon by boosting enemy Fire-type moves for threats such as Ho-Oh and Mega Blaziken, so be careful.

    Team Options
    ========

    As Groudon is the one doing the supporting, it doesn't require too much support itself. However, it appreciates teammates that can handle powerful special attacks as it cannot take many of them, especially from Pokemon such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W. Palkia is a solid check to most variants of Kyogre, while Water Arceus checks Kyurem-W and Choiced Kyogre well. As a bonus, Water Arceus is a solid check to Ho-Oh, which is very good to have if you are not running Stone Edge on Groudon. Blissey is a good catch-all special wall that can take many special attacks aimed at Groudon, and it can heal Groudon with Wish or cure burns it might have taken with Aromatherapy. Chansey and Sylveon can perform similar roles as well, but like Blissey, they can all be potentially sniped by Mega Gengar, so exercise caution when using them. Having something that can take Will-O-Wisp is also a very helpful teammate for Groudon; Ho-Oh is an excellent partner that can switch in on most Will-O-Wisp users such as support Arceus and threaten them with potentially sun-boosted Sacred Fires. Palkia can usually handle the support Arceus variants that Ho-Oh cannot, such as Rock Arceus and Water Arceus, particularly if it is equipped with Assault Vest.


    Offensive Stealth Rock
    ########
    name: Offensive Stealth Rock
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Dragon Tail
    move 4: Dragon Tail / Toxic / Lava Plume
    item: Earth Plate / Life Orb
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    nature: Adamant / Jolly

    Moves
    ========

    Although the move selection of this set is similar to that of the first set, it operates much differently. Earthquake, which is bolstered by Earth Plate and full investment in Groudon's enormous Attack stat, deals tremendous damage to almost everything that doesn't resist it; it cleanly OHKOes Dialga, a feat that few Pokemon can manage. It also deals over half to most support Arceus variants, pressuring them greatly if they try to come in and use Defog to clear away Stealth Rock. Stone Edge clips Ho-Oh's wings several times over and OHKOes 0 HP Yveltal after Stealth Rock damage, provided it has a Defense-lowering nature. It also does solid damage to Lugia, though it won't usually 2HKO. Dragon Tail is generally best in the last moveslot, as it allows Groudon to check Swords Dance Normal Arceus in a pinch while getting valuable chip damage on Giratina-O, which otherwise walls this set completely. It can also be run over Stone Edge if your team has a solid answer to Ho-Oh. Toxic is a great move on this set, as it cripples Landorus-T and Lugia, both of which can otherwise handle Groudon with ease. Lava Plume is also useful for hitting Skarmory and potentially burning Landorus-T, though it lacks the general utility of Toxic.

    Another potential move that can be run on this set is Dragon Claw, which allows Groudon to break Giratina-O a lot easier, nailing 252 HP variants for a 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage. However, it is not as useful as the other moves and Giratina-O generally runs substantial Defense investment, so Dragon Claw is somewhat unreliable.

    Set Details
    ========

    The EVs maximize Groudon's Speed and attacking power, as the focus of the set is to make Groudon extremely threatening offensively. An Adamant nature with and Earth Plate is usually the preferred variant of this set, as it guarantees the OHKO on Dialga with Earthquake. A Jolly nature can also be used with Life Orb to retain the OHKO on Dialga while outpacing other Pokemon in the base 90 Speed group, such as Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and Yveltal, assuming none of them also run a Speed-boosting nature. Life Orb significantly boosts Groudon's coverage moves as well, allowing for a clean OHKO on 0 HP Yveltal with Stone Edge. Groudon can even 2HKO Lugia with Life Orb-boosted Stone Edge, assuming Groudon is running an Adamant nature and Multiscale is not active. However, Life Orb recoil cuts down Groudon's bulk significantly.

    If you want a bulkier Groudon, you can drop the Speed investment as needed. However, you should always run at least 76 Speed EVs, assuming an Adamant nature, in order to allow Groudon to outspeed 0 Speed Yveltal so that it can smack it with Stone Edge before getting wrecked by Foul Play. You can also take some EVs out of Attack, but you need at least 220 EVs to retain the OHKO on Dialga, assuming an Adamant nature and Earth Plate as the item.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    This Groudon set operates effectively on offensive teams that need a reliable Stealth Rock user which can OHKO Dialga, is while being hard to set up on and able to check swords Dance Normal Arceus in a pinch. Unlike the support Groudon build, this set uses its offensive pressure and Speed rather than bulk to force switches and buy time to set up Stealth Rock, so be aggressive and don't play it like the first set. Rather, make use of Groudon's Speed, don't mindlessly use Earthquake if your opponent has Pokemon that are immune to Ground, and don't let it take damage it doesn't need to take.

    Team Options
    ========

    Although Toxic will cripple most of them, this set can be checked fairly easily by physical walls that can handle Earthquake such as Multiscale Lugia, Giratina, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Gliscor, and Grass Arceus. Yveltal switches in easily on all of these Pokemon and destroys them all with its powerful STAB attacks, making it a powerful offensive partner to Groudon, which can return the favor by wrecking Tyranitar and special tanks such as Sylveon with Earthquake. Aside from that, this set retains the same general weaknesses of the first set: it is vulnerable to powerful special attackers, particularly Kyogre and Kyurem-W, and is crippled by burns. Ho-Oh, Water Arceus, and Palkia remain great teammates for these reasons. Rock Arceus is also useful, as it counters Ho-Oh and checks Yveltal fairly well, which is extremely helpful if you decide to not run Stone Edge on Groudon.

    Rock Polish
    ########
    name: Rock Polish
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Fire Punch / Swords Dance / Dragon Claw
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========

    Rock Polish goes well with Groudon's huge Attack and mediocre Speed stat, turning it into a terrifying sweeper which can easily blow apart teams with its powerful STAB Earthquake. Stone Edge crushes most of the Flying-types that are immune to Earthquake, such as Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Shaymin-S, while also 2HKOing Lugia if Multiscale is not intact. Fire Punch is the primary choice for the last move, as it beats many Pokemon that would otherwise wall Groudon; it easily KOes Skarmory, Bronzong, Grass Arceus, and Mega Scizor, while also being the strongest option against Landorus-T and Gliscor, thanks to the boost from Drought. On the other hand, Swords Dance pumps up Groudon's Attack stat even further and gives it greater power to bust through walls such as Lugia and Giratina. Groudon can potentially sweep entire teams early on in a match if it manages to nab a boost from both Rock Polish and Swords Dance, but this is difficult to do without support from dual screens or significant bulk investment. If you really need Groudon to be able to break through Giratina-O by itself, Dragon Claw is an option for 2HKOing it, as well as hitting Palkia and Giratina slightly harder.

    Set Details
    ========

    Attack is maximized to allow Groudon to hit as hard as possible, and the choice of Adamant as the nature and Life Orb as the item supports this goal further. 176 Speed EVs allow Groudon to outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion after a Rock Polish boost, with the remaining EVs going into HP to help Groudon set up more easily. If you desire more bulk, you can run less Speed investment: 136 Speed lets it get past Choice Scarf Garchomp after a boost, 124 EVs allows it to outspeed Choice Scarf Palkia, and with an investment of a mere 56 EVs, it outpaces positive-natured Choice Scarf base 90s such as Kyogre and Zekrom.

    There are a few more ways to customize Groudon if it is running Swords Dance. Lum Berry is a nice option: it allows Groudon to beat Giratina in conjunction with Swords Dance and can potentially allow it to set up a second boost in the face of support Arceus formes that attempt to use Will-O-Wisp. However, Groudon cannot sweep as well with just a Rock Polish boost and without the added power from Life Orb. If you want to set up both Rock Polish and Swords Dance more consistently, you can run a very bulky spread: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe, with an Impish nature and Earth Plate as the item. This grants Groudon enough Speed to get past Choice Scarf Palkia after a Rock Polish while giving it enough bulk to set up far more easily. However, it lacks a lot of immediate power compared to more offensive builds and isn't as efficient as a pure sweeper.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Rock Polish Groudon works best a late-game sweeper, saved until its main checks are weakened. Obviously, you shouldn't try to set up a Rock Polish until the opponent's answer to Rock Polish Groudon such as Lugia or Giratina is weakened. Swords Dance can give Groudon more versatility against bulkier teams and a greater ability to break walls, making Groudon more useful early- or mid-game. However, even with Swords Dance, Groudon has trouble piercing through walls such as Gliscor, so make sure that such roadblocks are taken out first. Use your Groudon's offensive presence and solid physical bulk to buy a turn to set up if you can; trying to set up on a powerful special attack can possibly leave Groudon dead or with too little health to sweep.

    Team Options
    ========

    This set has a very difficult time forcing its way through Gliscor, and it can still be walled by Skarmory, Grass Arceus, or Giratina depending on what moves it decides to run. Yveltal is still a great teammate to take advantage of and destroy all of these Pokemon. Ho-Oh is also an excellent partner if Groudon is not running Fire Punch, as it can take care of Skarmory and Grass Arceus while softening up walls such as Lugia, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon with potential Sacred Fire burns. As a bonus, Ho-Oh handles Choice Scarf Shaymin-S , which can outspeed Groudon after a Rock Polish and revenge kill it with Seed Flare, easily. Mixed Zekrom is also a notable teammate for this set, as it can lure in and destroy bulky Ground-types such as Gliscor and Hippowdon, which Groudon may have trouble beating by itself, with a powerful Draco Meteor. Zekrom is also an excellent choice against Skarmory.

    Other Options
    ########

    Thunder Wave turns Groudon into a solid paralysis spreader, crippling many of its common switch-ins such as Kyogre, Yveltal, and support Arceus. It can also be combined with Swords Dance to enable Groudon to act as an effective Lugia lure, paralyzing it and then KOing with a boosted Stone Edge. Choice Band grants Groudon ludicrous power without any setup, and its wide type coverage limits what can safely come in on it. However, Groudon's STAB has many dangerous Pokemon immune to it, such as Ho-Oh and Yveltal, that can take advantage of Choice-locked Earthquake easily, so Choice Band is rather risky to use. Hammer Arm is Groudon's most powerful option against Normal Arceus and Mega Kangaskhan, but otherwise, it has limited utility. Overheat OHKOes even the specially bulky variants of Skarmory and does a nice chunk of damage to Gliscor, but it lacks the utility of Lava Plume and the consistency of Fire Punch if you really need a Fire-type attack.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Physical Walls**: Physically bulky Pokemon that can handle Earthquake make fine Groudon checks. Gliscor is the best of the lot: it is immune to Groudon's STAB and Toxic, takes little from its other moves, and can easily Toxic stall Groudon to death. Skarmory works similarly to Gliscor, although it needs to be wary of Fire-type attacks. Hippowdon and Landorus-T are bulky enough to tank most of Groudon's hits, but they need to watch out for Toxic and possible burns from Lava Plume. Lugia is faster than Groudon and can easily stall it out with Multiscale and Toxic, but it detests taking Toxic itself and won't enjoy a boosted Stone Edge either.

    **Bronzong**: Bronzong walls any Groudon set without a Fire-type attacks and can retaliate with Toxic or use it to set up Stealth Rock or Dual Screens.

    **Kyogre**: Kyogre doesn't take Earthquake from offensive Groudon sets too well but easily OHKOes Groudon with STAB Drizzle-boosted Water-type attacks. It can also check the Rock Polish set with a physically defensive set.

    **Shaymin-S**: With a Choice Scarf, Shaymin-S can outspeed Groudon even after a Rock Polish boost and swiftly destroy it with Seed Flare, and it is immune to Groudon's STAB Earthquake. However, Shaymin-S cannot switch in on Stone Edge or a Fire-type attack.

    **Ho-Oh**: Walls any set without Stone Edge and cripples Groudon with potential Sacred Fire burns. However, Ho-Oh will have trouble switching in if Stealth Rock is up on its side of the field.

    **Status**: Groudon absolutely detests burns, as they halve its Attack and the passive damage wears it out quickly. Support Arceus formes and the Giratina formes usually carry Will-O-Wisp which easily cripples Groudon. Toxic is also crippling to defensive sets and it puts offensive ones on a timer.

    **Powerful Special Attackers**: Strong special attackers such as Palkia, Kyurem-W, Reshiram, Mewtwo, and Mega Charizard Y can easily revenge kill Groudon with their powerful attacks. Mega Gengar can trap and eliminate a weakened Groudon, especially if it has Energy Ball. However, Groudon usually has to be significantly weakened for Mega Gengar to finish it off reliably, lest it be OHKOed in return by Earthquake.

    **Cresselia**: Gets a special mention as she hard-counters Groudon almost completely, with her only true fear being Toxic.
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  2. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Skeleton is done.
  3. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,464
    Should probably mention the defensive spread that Eo used in gen 4 for Rock Polish if SD is used (ie Double Dance). IIRC, it was something like 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe Impish to outspeed Scarf 90s, although I tend to use 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe for Scarf Palkia. I use something like

    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Swords Dance
    ability: Drought
    item: Earth Plate
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe

    Can actually get both boosts relatively easily if your opponent is not packing amazing special attackers that can easily come in, and wrecks lots of balls.
    Piexplode likes this.
  4. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,096
    I honestly might just be rambling but I think the paradancer set needs to go.

    The reason for this is quite simple- opportunity cost. Between it's three (four with Double Dance and Rock Polish splitted, something I'd do) sets there isn't any reason whatsover using a mon that hardly ever puts in the amount of work the other sets can do. Stealth Rock is a golden support move, and Groudon is one of, if not the best user of it in the tier atm. Already there you are giving up a whole dimension of opportunity. For me that set is just clumsy mix between offense and support. I'd use thunder wave for some sets, but then I'd really use SR and not attempt to set a SD. With the EVs and item you cannot even OHKO support Dialga, which is a main draw of any offensive Groudon- I'd daresay you can do more damage to the opponents team by using EP Groudon. With the high bulk paradancer has, you'd might think it would check E-killer decently, but no, it has no phazing move like your standard impish Groudon. I can honestly don't see a situation when I would ever use the set, and I don't think anyone has actually tried it much in this generation (or even last generation). I know I'm not a QC member or anything but it's completely logical to remove that set since it's just much worse than the other three, feel free to disagree with good arguments, though I don't know if you can defend that sets viability really.

    For EP sets I'd mention the alternative spread, that we have been using for some teams Fireburn.

    Groudon @ Earth Plate
    Ability: Drought
    EVs: 76 Spd / 212 HP / 220 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Dragon Tail

    It works wondering crippling support Arceus, has enough attack to OHKO support Dialga and the speed is for 0 speed Yveltal aka defensive variants that are really nice to Toxic. Checking E-killer with Dragon Tail is very good get required chip damage on it. Roar would simply let it come in and continue at the same amount of HP as you left it later, especially now since hazards are less used. While this set can't really touch Ho-oh outside Toxic, it's usually something you wanna run with Arceus-Rock or Water anyway.

    Good job!
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  5. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Made the changes shrang and Hack suggested.

    I'll let QC decide about Paradancer. I still think it has some merit as a Lugia/Giratina lure but Hack makes some valid points so I'd like more input.
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,402
    Lol, I can see the BW1 in you Fireburn.

    Anyways, I'm mostly just going to comment on sets for now as I have yet to dive into this new format. (I read the details but I'm not going to nitpick them yet)

    Support:
    I dislike seeing this set as the first one. As a ground type, it fails to beat Dialga one-on-on (can't OHKO defensive Dialga and is going to be slower than offensive and nuked by DM) and it's a pretty lame SR setter. It's also really easy to handle with bulky Arceus formes which are everywhere, atm. This may come from the fact I dislike the moves used on the set. I don't feel like Stealth Rock is that important to it when bulky Arceus formes have no issue switching in and Defoging. Being BU MMX bait is pretty bad. (both Dtail and Plume are second slashes) I would give you a better defensive Donner set but I haven't used it much at all and not quite sure what I would end up running on it if. (I've been using Lando-T) I'll get back to you on this one, for now all I can say is I dislike what is there.

    Offensive SR:
    Imo, this should be the bread and butter set. Again, I think the set is kinda funny. It's strange you bring up Toxic here when it fits arguably better on defensive. There's also no Lava Plume slash which is important for Lando-T imo. Make the 4th move Lava Plume / Dtail, Dclaw isn't really needed cause your max speed will likely allow you to fast phaze Tina-O, anyways, and Tail has more utility. Ho-Oh is a bigger target than Lando-t so I'd rather have Tail slashed with Plume.

    (Also, I want a Lum Berry mention in whatever is AC now. Helps out teams that are weakish to Rock Arceus although the power drop is noticable.)

    RP:
    It looks fine.

    ParaDance:
    I want to move it to oo but I also want to get some playtime with it before doing so.
  7. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Okay for Support Groudon I'm thinking about revising the slashes to this:

    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Toxic / Lava Plume
    move 4: Dragon Tail / Roar

    The choice between DTail and Roar is kind of difficult IMO since both do important things: Roar phazes Sub Ho-Oh and doesn't miss vs EKiller while DTail phazes Taunt M2X and gets chip damage on Tina-O. DTail is probably better being the primary option since Taunt is one of the best moves in the metagame atm. Either way, phazing is mandatory on support Groudon this gen IMO as without it stuff like EKiller just kind of tramples Groudon. I slashed Toxic as the status option since it messes up bulky support Arceus so they can't just come in repeatedly and use Defog, while Lava Plume is nice for Skarm still. TWave will still be mentioned in the set comments, or if Paradancer gets moved to OO I'll just put TWave there.

    I agree that DClaw isn't as needed as the 4th move on Offensive SR but I disagree with making Lava Plume the primary option. I'll still mention it, but Toxic is better IMO since it accomplishes the same goal as Lava Plume (crippling Landorus-T) while being much more useful against other checks such as Lugia, Hippo, and support Arceus (they can't just recover against Groudon when Toxiced). Hack and I have been using SR/EQ/DTail/Toxic EP Groudon for awhile now and can attest to its effectiveness, but I will make sure to emphasize that you need a reliable Ho-Oh check without Stone Edge.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,402
    Those changes (if I understood correctly) sound solid so go ahead.

    As for support, I disagree with Roar being that important. Stone Edge is going to make sure Ho-Oh doesn't Substitute on you (although fuck burns plus subroost lol) while responding to an already Sub'd with a Roar Groudon is a pretty mediocre plan, you should have better options. I also don't really think SR is worth running on the support set if you don't have a way to stop Arceus from coming in and Defoging. So, basically, I think either both SR and Toxic should be first slashes or they should be secondary. One of the biggest reasons to use Donner is to setup SR so it's best that your SR setter doesn't lose to the Defog users that is found on every team. Honestly, I feel like defensive Donner is having the same moveset trouble that Hippowdon is having. :/
  9. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Changed up the Support set slashes, any more comments?
    garcia1570 likes this.
  10. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    534
    please no paradancer

    support set slashes are well done, at least it represents what i tend to use
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,402
    I still think support Don should be the second/third set, not entirely sure so I'm open to input.
  12. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    297
    Hello. For the support set I would recommend giving roar the first slash in the fourth slot. The ability to phaze is one of Groudon notable advantage over Landorus-T. So something like this:

    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Stone Edge / Toxic
    ~ Roar

    Without Roar you are unable to check Extreme Killer Arceus which is a threat that support Groudon is meant to check.
    garcia1570 likes this.
  13. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    534
    i disagree, it should be first. it checks a ton of the physical threats in this meta: zekrom, kanga, arc norm, lando, etc, and also is good vs bulky stuff like zong + aegis which can't be said for other stuff like lando or arc ground (walled by aegis) or mega gengar, another common way of beating arc norm.
    Fireburn, Melee Mewtwo and Piexplode like this.
  14. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Moved Paradancer (and by extension TWave) to OO. I think this is good to go.
  15. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,432
    Sad to see Paradancer go since I had a lot of fun with the set in older generations. Though it really is lackluster now with Groudon being needed for Stealth Rock even more (fuck you Defog Arceus).

    </ramble>
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,402
    Mention mega Gengar as a check, it can be dickish with levitate and I've used Eball before lol.

    QC Approved 1/3
    [​IMG]
  17. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,096
    Lum Berry mention for Double Dance is something I'd want. Otherwise

    QC Approved 2/3
    Piexplode likes this.
  18. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Will write up soon.
  19. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    442
    Why is dragon claw slashed first in the rock polish set? It hits giratina-o only. Fire punch his skarmory, arceus-grass, mega scizor, ferrothorn, landirus-t, gliscor and bronzong. Swords dance is nice vs. physical walls, such as hippowdon, groudon, physically defensive kyogre, gliscor. It's especially good against paralyzed pokemon too. Example: you can ko paralyzed bulky arceus formes in one hit with earthquake.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    Sweep, trickroom and Hack like this.
  20. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    Agree with Anikrahman, Dragon Claw hits nothing important, Giratina is hit almost as hard by Earthquake anyway. Groudon doesn't need to OHKO Latias now, and Garchomp is so rare anyway, it's easy to put it in KO range of Earthquake. The OHKO on Garchomp is not worth it, Palkia is KOed after Stealth Rock or a little bit of damage. I personally think Swords Dance is better because Groudon attracts physical walls, and you get to land a solid smack before to get to phaze you, dealing massive damage to Groudon, Hippowdon and OHKO max Def Kyogre. Gliscor won't like to eat a +4 Stone Edge.
    Piexplode likes this.
  21. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Good point, I'll move Dragon Claw to the last slash.
  22. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    This analysis is written and ready for the final QC check.
  23. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    998
    Mention for the Support set that Groudon lacking both Stone Edge and Roar is vulnerable to Substitute Ho-Oh.

    Shadow Claw deals abysmal damage to Cresselia, even if you have a Life Orb attached:
    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 156-185 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 76.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (easily stalled out by Moonlight)
    It's not even worth Other Options as Toxic is a much better way of dealing with Cresselia.

    QC: 3/3
  24. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Done. Ready for GP!
  25. Legitimate Username

    Legitimate Username Today is always the most enjoyable day
    is an Artistis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2012
    Messages:
    525
    Amateur check. This sure is long. Mostly minor changes and a couple of spelling fixes.
    Additions
    Removals
    (Comments)
    Changes (open)
    Overview
    ########

    Groudon is a powerful and versatile threat, boasting the ability to sweep efficiently with Rock Polish and/or Swords Dance, or to support the team well with Stealth Rock, phazing, or status. Its high Defense allows it to act as a check to many prominent physical threats such as Arceus-Normal, Zekrom, Terrakion, and Garchomp, and its enormous Attack paired with STAB Earthquake make it a lethal offensive threat as well. Drought is also something else Groudon can use effectively, and it makes Groudon making it useful to for temporarily pump pumping up the power of Fire-types such as Ho-Oh. However, it is held back by its modest Special Defense and Speed stats, and the nerf of Drought in Generation 6 somewhat lessens Groudon's supporting capabilities. Nevertheless, Groudon remains the potent force it has always been for the past three generations in the Ubers metagame.

    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Lava Plume
    move 4: Toxic / Dragon Tail / Roar
    ability: Drought
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

    Moves
    ========

    Earthquake is a powerful STAB move that hits hard thanks to Groudon's naturally high base Attack, despite having no Attack investment due to Groudon's naturally high base Attack,. and It is mandatory to for properly deal dealing with threats such as Zekrom. Stealth Rock is a very useful support move for Groudon: it is one of the few viable users of the move in Ubers, and Groudon's bulk and typing usually gives it ample chances to come in and set it up in battle. Stone Edge is very helpful as it allows Groudon to OHKO Ho-Oh and significantly damage Yveltal, both of which are dangerous threats that could otherwise freely come in on Groudon. If these threats aren't a of concern to your team, Lava Plume is also a sloid solid option for allowing Groudon to KO Skarmory easily, who can otherwise switch freely in on Groudon and use Defog to remove Stealth Rock, and hit while also hitting Landorus-T, and potentially crippling it with a burn. However, Lava Plume is not recommended for use if Toxic is run in the last moveslot, as it still cripples Landorus-T and has more general use.

    Speaking of the last moveslot, the choice between Toxic, Dragon Tail, and Roar can be difficult and is oftentimes dependent on what is more important to your team. Toxic pressures Defog users such as support Arceus so they can't freely switch in on Groudon, and it cripples many of Groudon's other checks such as Landorus-T and Lugia. Dragon Tail allows Groudon to phaze dangerous threats such as Arceus-Normal and Mega Mewtwo X, and is generally preferred to Roar since it gets valuable chip damage on enemy Pokemon and is not blocked by Taunt. However, Roar has perfect accuracy and phazes Substitute users such as Ho-Oh, although Groudon will still need Stone Edge to check it.

    Set Details
    ========

    You will always want to fully invest fully in Groudon's bulk with the set, usually maximizing its Defense so that it can check physical threats as needed. Leftovers is the preferred item in most cases as it is Groudon's only form of recovery. Lum Berry is also an option as it gives Groudon one-time status protection and is useful against support Arceus, Ho-Oh, and lead Darkrai, but losing the recovery of Leftovers is usually not worth it. Heat Rock can be used if you're running a dedicated sun team to extend Drought's duration to 8 turns rather than 5, but this is only recommended if you are using sun reliant Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X or Mega Houndoom. It also doesn't help that most Chlorophyll sweepers in Ubers are not worth using even if Drought was still permanent.

    An alternate EV spread for Groudon is 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD, with a Careful nature. This makes Groudon surprisingly durable on the special side, making it a better check to mixed Zekrom, support Dialga, and Arceus-Electric. Specially defensive groudon can also take two Lustrous Orb boosted Spacial Rends from Palkia at full health, making it useful as an emergency check. However, specially defensive Groudon is not nearly as good at checking the physical threats it is otherwise meant to check (too much use of the word "check").

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Groudon can switch easily into physical attackers such as Zekrom, Tyranitar, Mega Lucario, Terrakion, and most forms of Swords Dance Arceus, as well as bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Jirachi, giving it a great opportunity opportunities to set up Stealth Rock, phaze, or spread status. It fits best on balanced or stall teams that need a physically bulky Pokemon that can set up Stealth Rock reliably. It can work on more offensively oriented teams, but support Groudon isn't as good at maintaining momentum so it would be better to stick to the more offensively inclined sets for those kinds of teams.

    Deciding when to use Stealth Rock takes a bit more care than it may seem at first glance, as taking a turn to use the move can cost you a lot of momentum. Save it for when you predict the opponent to switch out or are in against something that doesn't threaten Groudon too much such as Tyranitar. More specifically, you should never use Stealth Rock in the face of Arceus-Normal and Ho-Oh, horribly dangerous threats which Groudon usually only has enough bulk to check once (and Ho-Oh is a very risky switch regardless). Letting Groudon take a burn or sacrificing it just to set up Stealth Rock is also not advised if you still need Groudon to check something on the opponent's team, such as a Choice Scarf Zekrom. In general, don't play Groudon too recklessly if you really need it to check something that might otherwise sweep your team.

    Drought isn't something you can actively make use of most of the time due to its short duration, but Groudon's good synergy with Fire-types such as Ho-Oh can potentially give you time to abuse it. It can also be used to help slow Kyogre's onslaught if you are having trouble against it, but switching Groudon directly into Kyogre is generally a terrible idea unless you are strongly predicting Thunder or have no other choice. Drought can also backfire on Groudon by boosting enemy Fire-types such as Ho-Oh and Mega Blaziken, so be careful.

    Team Options
    ========

    As Groudon is the one doing the supporting, so it doesn't require too much support itself. However, it appreciates teammates that can handle powerful special attacks as it cannot take many of them, especially from Pokemon such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W. Palkia is a solid check to most variants of Kyogre, while Arceus-Water checks Kyurem-W and choiced Kyogre well. As a bonus, Arceus-Water is a solid check to Ho-Oh, which is very good to have if you are not running Stone Edge on Groudon. Blissey is a good catch-all special wall that can take many special attacks aimed at Groudon, and it can heal it Groudon with Wish or cure burns it might have taken with Aromatherapy. Chansey and Sylveon can perform similar roles as well, but like Blissey, they can all be potentially sniped by Mega Gengar, so exercise caution when using them. Having something that can take Will-O-Wisp is also a very helpful teammate for Groudon; Ho-Oh is an excellent partner that can switch in on most Will-O-Wisp users such as support Arceus and threaten them with potentially sun-boosted Sacred Fires. Palkia can usually handle the support Arceus variants that Ho-Oh cannot such as Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Water, particularly if it is equipped with Assault Vest.


    Offensive Stealth Rock
    ########
    name: Offensive Stealth Rock
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Dragon Tail
    move 4: Dragon Tail / Toxic / Lava Plume
    ability: Drought
    item: Earth Plate / Life Orb
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Although the move selection is similar to that of the first set, this set one operates much differently. Earthquake, which is bolstered by Earth Plate and full investment into Groudon's enormous Attack stat, deals tremendous damage to almost everything that doesn't resist it, cleanly OHKOing Dialga, which is a feat that few Pokemon can manage. It also deals over half to most support Arceus variants, pressuring them greatly if they try to come in and use Defog to clear away Stealth Rock. Stone Edge clips Ho-Oh's wings several times over and OHKOes 0 HP Yveltal after Stealth Rock damage, provided it has a Defense-lowering nature. It also does solid damage to Lugia, though it won't usually 2HKO it. Dragon Tail is generally best in the last moveslot as it allows Groudon to still check Arceus-Normal in a pinch while getting valuable chip damage on Giratina-O, who otherwise walls this set completely. It can also be run over Stone Edge if your team has a solid answer to Ho-Oh. Toxic is a great move on this set as it cripples Landorus-T and Lugia, who can otherwise handle Groudon with ease. Lava Plume is also useful for hitting Skarmory and potentially burning Landorus-T, though it lacks the general utility of Toxic.

    Another potential move that can be run on this set is Dragon Claw, which allows Groudon to break Giratina-O a lot easier, nailing 252 HP variants for a 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage. However, it is not as useful as the other moves and Giratina-O generally runs substantial Defense investment, so Dragon Claw is somewhat unreliable.

    Set Details
    ========

    The EVs maximize Groudon's Speed and attack power, as the focus of the set is to make Groudon extremely threatening offensively. An Adamant nature with and Earth Plate is usually the preferred setup, as it guarantees the OHKO on Dialga with Earthquake. A Jolly nature can also be used with Life Orb to retain the OHKO on Dialga while outpacing other Pokemon in the base 90 Speed group, such as Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and Yveltal, assuming none of them also run a Speed boosting nature. Life Orb significantly boosts Groudon's coverage moves as well, allowing for a clean OHKO on 0 HP Yveltal with Stone Edge. Groudon can even 2HKO Lugia with Life Orb boosted Stone Edge, assuming you are running an Adamant nature and Multiscale is not active. However, Life Orb's recoil cuts into down Groudon's bulk significantly.

    If you want a bulkier Groudon, you can drop the Spped Speed investment as needed. However, you should always run at least 76 Speed EVs, assuming an Adamant nature, in order to allow Groudon to outspeed 0 Speed Yveltal so it can smack it with Stone Edge before getting wrecked by Foul Play. You can also take some EVs out of Attack, but you need at least 220 EVs to retain the OHKO on Dialga, assuming an Adamant nature and Earth Plate as the item.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    This Groudon set operates effectively on offensive teams that need a reliable Stealth Rock user that can OHKO Dialga, is while being hard to set up on, and able to check Arceus-Normal in a pinch. Unlike the support Groudon build, this set uses its offensive pressure and Speed rather than bulk to force switches and buy time to set up Stealth Rock, so be aggressive and don't play it like the first set. Rather, make use of Groudon's Speed, don't mindlessly spam Earthquake if your opponent has Ground immunities, and don't let it take damage it doesn't need to take.

    Team Options
    ========

    Although Toxic will cripple most of them, this set can be checked fairly easily by physical walls that can handle Earthquake such as Multiscale Lugia, Giratina, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Gliscor, and Arceus-Grass. Yveltal switches in easily on all of these Pokemon and destroys them all with its powerful STAB attacks, making it a powerful offensive complement to Groudon who can return the favor by wrecking Tyranitar and special tanks such as Sylveon with Earthquake. Aside from that, this set retains the same general weaknesses of the first set: it is vulnerable to powerful special attackers, particularly Kyogre and Kyurem-W, and is crippled by burns. Ho-Oh, Arceus-Water, and Palkia remain great teammates for these reasons. Arceus-Rock is also useful since it counters Ho-Oh and checks Yveltal fairly well, which is extremely helpful if you decide not to run Stone Edge on Groudon.

    Rock Polish
    ########
    name: Rock Polish
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Fire Punch / Swords Dance / Dragon Claw
    ability: Drought
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Rock Polish goes well with Groudon's huge Attack and mediocre Speed stats stat, turning it into a terrifying sweeper that can easily blow apart teams with its powerful STAB Earthquake. Stone Edge crushes most of the Flying-types that are immune to Earthquake such as Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Shaymin-S, and it while also 2HKOes 2HKOing Lugia assuming if Multiscale is not active. Fire Punch is the first primary choice for the last move as it beats many Pokemon that would otherwise wall Groudon, easily killing Skarmory, Bronzong, Arceus-Grass, and Mega Scizor, while also being the strongest option against Landorus-T and Gliscor thanks to the boost from Drought. On the other hand, Swords Dance pumps up Groudon's Attack stat even further and gives it greater power to bust through walls such as Lugia and Giratina. Groudon can potentially sweep entire teams early on in a match if it manages to nab a boost from both Rock Polish and Swords Dance, but this is difficult to do without support from Screens or significant bulk investment. If you really need Groudon to be able to break through Giratina-O by itself, Dragon Claw nabs an easy 2HKO on it, and it while also gives giving a slightly stronger hit against Palkia and Giratina hitting Palkia and Giratina slightly harder.

    Set Details
    ========

    Attack is maximized to allow Groudon to hit as hard as possible, and the choice of Adamant as the nature and Life Orb as the item supports this goal further. 176 Speed EVs allows Groudon to outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion after a Rock Polish boost, with the remaining EVs going into HP in order to allow help Groudon to set up easier more easily. If you desire more bulk, you can run less Speed investment: 136 Speed gets by Choice Scarf Garchomp after a boost, 124 EVs outspeeds Choice Scarf Palkia, and a mere 56 EVs outpaces positive natured Choice Scarf base 90's such as Kyogre and Zekrom.

    There are a few more ways to customize Groudon if you are running Swords Dance. Lum Berry becomes is a nice option: it allows Groudon to beat Giratina in conjunction with Swords Dance and can potentially allow it to set up a second boost in the face of support Arceus that attempt to use Will-O-Wisp. However, Groudon cannot sweep as well with just a Rock Polish boost without the added power from Life Orb. If you want to set up both Rock Polish and Swords Dance more consistently, you can run a very bulky spread: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe with an Impish nature and Earth Plate as the item. This allows grants Groudon enough Speed to get by Choice Scarf Palkia after a Rock Polish while giving it enough bulk to set up far more easily while being on to take something of a support role, only that it can also threaten a sweep (I have no idea what you trying to say here, you may want to fix it if you think deletion isn't necessary though). However, it lacks a lot of immediate power compared to more offensive builds and isn't as efficient as a pure sweeper.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Rock Polish Groudon works best a late-game sweeper, saved until it's main checks are weakened. Obviously, you shouldn't try to setup a Rock Polish until the opponent's answer to Rock Polish Groudon such as Lugia or Giratina is weakened. Swords Dance can give you more versatility against bulkier teams and a greater ability to break walls, making Groudon more useful early- or mid-game. However, even with Swords Dance, Groudon has trouble piercing walls such as Gliscor, so make sure that such roadblocks are taken out first. Use your offensive presence or solid physical bulk to buy a turn to set up if you can - trying to set up on a powerful special attack can possibly leave you dead or with too little health to sweep.

    Team Options
    ========

    This set has a very difficult time forcing its way through Gliscor, and it can still be walled by Skarmory, Arceus-Grass, or Giratina depending on what moves it decides to run. Yveltal is still a great teammate to take advantage of and destroy all of these Pokemon. Ho-Oh is also an excellent partner if Groudon is not running Fire Punch, as it can take care of Skarmory and Arceus-Grass while softening up walls such as Lugia, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon with potentia potential Sacred Fire burns. As a bonus, Ho-Oh handles Choice Scarf Shaymin-S with ease, who can outspeed Groudon after a Rock Polish and revenge kill it with Seed Flare. Mixed Zekrom is also a notable teammate for this set as it can lure in and destroy with a powerful Draco Meteor bulky Ground-types such as Gliscor and Hippowdon, with a powerful Draco Meteor that which Groudon may have trouble beating by itself (this sentence was a bit confusing, it seemed like Groudon had trouble beating a powerful Draco Meteor by itself). Zekrom is also an excellent choice against Skarmory.

    Other Options
    ########

    Thunder Wave turns Groudon into a solid paralysis spreader, crippling many of its common switch-ins to it such as Kyogre, Yveltal, and support Arceus. It can also be combined with Swords Dance to enable Groudon to act as an effective Lugia lure, paralyzing it and then KOing with a boosted Stone Edge. Choice Band affords grants Groudon ludicrous power without any setup, and its wide type coverage limits what can safely come in on it. However, Groudon's STAB has many dangerous Pokemon immune to it such as Ho-Oh and Yveltal that can take advantage of choice-locked Earthquake easily, so Choice Band is rather risky to use. Hammer Arm is Groudon's most powerful option against Arceus-Normal and Mega Kangaskhan, but otherwise, it has limited utility. Overheat OHKOes even the specially bulky variants of Skarmory and does a nice chunk of damage to Gliscor, but it lacks the utility of Lava Plume or and the consistency of Fire Punch if you really need a Fire-type attack.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Physical Walls**: Physically bulky Pokemon that can handle Earthquake make fine Groudon checks. Gliscor is the best of the lot: it is immune to Groudon's STAB, takes little from its other moves, is immune to Toxic, and can easily Toxic stall Groudon to death. Skarmory and Bronzong wall any Groudon set lacking a Fire-type attack. Hippowdon and Landorus-T are bulky enough to tank most of Groudon's hits, but they need to watch out for Toxic and possible burns from Lava Plume. Lugia is faster than Groudon and can easily stall it out with Multiscale and Toxic, but it detests taking Toxic itself and it won't enjoy a boosted Stone Edge either. Cresselia gets a special mention as she hardcounters hard counters Groudon almost completely, with her only true fear being Toxic.

    **Status**: Groudon absolutely detests burn as it halves its Attack and the passive damage wears it out quickly. Support Arceus, the Giratina formes, and Ho-Oh are all common burn spreaders Groudon must watch out for, though Ho-Oh won't enjoy Stone Edge even from a burned Groudon. Toxic is also cripping to defensive sets and it puts offensive ones on a timer.

    **Powerful Special Attackers**: Although Groudon's special bulk is by no means bad, it doesn't can't hold for out long against the vicious special attackers of Ubers. Although many special attackers have trouble switching directly in, Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Reshiram, and Shaymin-S are particularly dangerous as they can easily OHKO Groudon with their STAB attacks. Mega Gnegar Gengar gets a special mwntion mention, as it can trap and eliminate a weakened Groudon, especially if it has Energy Ball. However, Groudon usually has to be significantly weakened for Mega Gengar to finish it off reliably, lest it be OHKOed in return by Earthquake.
    Copypaste (open)
    Overview
    ########

    Groudon is a powerful and versatile threat, boasting the ability to sweep efficiently with Rock Polish and/or Swords Dance, or to support the team with Stealth Rock, phazing, or status. Its high Defense allows it to act as a check to many prominent physical threats such as Arceus-Normal, Zekrom, Terrakion, and Garchomp, and its enormous Attack paired with STAB Earthquake make it a lethal offensive threat as well. Drought is something else Groudon can use effectively, making it useful for temporarily pumping up the power of Fire-types such as Ho-Oh. However, it is held back by its modest Special Defense and Speed stats, and the nerf of Drought in Generation 6 somewhat lessens Groudon's supporting capabilities. Nevertheless, Groudon remains the potent force it has always been for the past three generations in the Ubers metagame.

    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Lava Plume
    move 4: Toxic / Dragon Tail / Roar
    ability: Drought
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

    Moves
    ========

    Earthquake is a powerful STAB move that hits hard thanks to Groudon's naturally high base Attack, despite having no investment. It is mandatory for properly dealing with threats such as Zekrom. Stealth Rock is a very useful support move for Groudon: it is one of the few viable users of the move in Ubers, and Groudon's bulk and typing usually gives it ample chances to come in and set it up in battle. Stone Edge is very helpful as it allows Groudon to OHKO Ho-Oh and significantly damage Yveltal, both of which are dangerous threats that could otherwise freely come in on Groudon. If these threats aren't of concern to your team, Lava Plume is also a solid option for allowing Groudon to KO Skarmory easily, who can otherwise switch freely in on Groudon and use Defog to remove Stealth Rock, while also hitting Landorus-T and potentially crippling it with a burn. However, Lava Plume is not recommended for use if Toxic is run in the last moveslot, as it still cripples Landorus-T and has more general use.

    Speaking of the last moveslot, the choice between Toxic, Dragon Tail, and Roar can be difficult and is oftentimes dependent on what is more important to your team. Toxic pressures Defog users such as support Arceus so they can't freely switch in on Groudon, and it cripples many of Groudon's other checks such as Landorus-T and Lugia. Dragon Tail allows Groudon to phaze dangerous threats such as Arceus-Normal and Mega Mewtwo X, and is generally preferred to Roar since it gets valuable chip damage on enemy Pokemon and is not blocked by Taunt. However, Roar has perfect accuracy and phazes Substitute users such as Ho-Oh, although Groudon will still need Stone Edge to check it.

    Set Details
    ========

    You will always want to fully invest in Groudon's bulk with the set, usually maximizing its Defense so that it can check physical threats as needed. Leftovers is the preferred item in most cases as it is Groudon's only form of recovery. Lum Berry is also an option as it gives Groudon one-time status protection and is useful against support Arceus, Ho-Oh, and lead Darkrai, but losing the recovery of Leftovers is usually not worth it. Heat Rock can be used if you're running a dedicated sun team to extend Drought's duration to 8 turns rather than 5, but this is only recommended if you are using sun reliant Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X or Mega Houndoom. It also doesn't help that most Chlorophyll sweepers in Ubers are not worth using even if Drought was still permanent.

    An alternate EV spread for Groudon is 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD, with a Careful nature. This makes Groudon surprisingly durable on the special side, making it a better check to mixed Zekrom, support Dialga, and Arceus-Electric. Specially defensive groudon can also take two Lustrous Orb boosted Spacial Rends from Palkia at full health, making it useful as an emergency check. However, specially defensive Groudon is not nearly as good at checking the physical threats it is otherwise meant to.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Groudon can switch easily into physical attackers such as Zekrom, Tyranitar, Mega Lucario, Terrakion, and most forms of Swords Dance Arceus, as well as bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Jirachi, giving it great opportunities to set up Stealth Rock, phaze, or spread status. It fits best on balanced or stall teams that need a physically bulky Pokemon that can set up Stealth Rock reliably. It can work on more offensively oriented teams, but support Groudon isn't as good at maintaining momentum so it would be better to stick to the more offensively inclined sets.

    Deciding when to use Stealth Rock takes a bit more care than it may seem at first glance, as taking a turn to use the move can cost you a lot of momentum. Save it for when you predict the opponent to switch out or are in against something that doesn't threaten Groudon too much such as Tyranitar. More specifically, you should never use Stealth Rock in the face of Arceus-Normal and Ho-Oh, horribly dangerous threats which Groudon usually only has enough bulk to check once (and Ho-Oh is a very risky switch regardless). Letting Groudon take a burn or sacrificing it just to set up Stealth Rock is also not advised if you still need Groudon to check something on the opponent's team, such as a Choice Scarf Zekrom. In general, don't play Groudon too recklessly if you really need it to check something that might otherwise sweep your team.

    Drought isn't something you can actively make use of most of the time due to its short duration, but Groudon's good synergy with Fire-types such as Ho-Oh can potentially give you time to abuse it. It can also be used to help slow Kyogre's onslaught if you are having trouble against it, but switching Groudon directly into Kyogre is generally a terrible idea unless you are strongly predicting Thunder or have no other choice. Drought can also backfire on Groudon by boosting enemy Fire-types such as Ho-Oh and Mega Blaziken, so be careful.

    Team Options
    ========

    As Groudon is the one doing the supporting, it doesn't require too much support itself. However, it appreciates teammates that can handle powerful special attacks as it cannot take many of them, especially from Pokemon such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W. Palkia is a solid check to most variants of Kyogre, while Arceus-Water checks Kyurem-W and choiced Kyogre well. As a bonus, Arceus-Water is a solid check to Ho-Oh, which is very good to have if you are not running Stone Edge on Groudon. Blissey is a good catch-all special wall that can take many special attacks aimed at Groudon, and it can heal Groudon with Wish or cure burns it might have taken with Aromatherapy. Chansey and Sylveon can perform similar roles as well, but like Blissey, they can all be potentially sniped by Mega Gengar, so exercise caution when using them. Having something that can take Will-O-Wisp is also a very helpful teammate for Groudon; Ho-Oh is an excellent partner that can switch in on most Will-O-Wisp users such as support Arceus and threaten them with potentially sun-boosted Sacred Fires. Palkia can usually handle the support Arceus variants that Ho-Oh cannot such as Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Water, particularly if it is equipped with Assault Vest.


    Offensive Stealth Rock
    ########
    name: Offensive Stealth Rock
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Stone Edge / Dragon Tail
    move 4: Dragon Tail / Toxic / Lava Plume
    ability: Drought
    item: Earth Plate / Life Orb
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Although the move selection is similar to that of the first set, this one operates much differently. Earthquake, which is bolstered by Earth Plate and full investment into Groudon's enormous Attack stat, deals tremendous damage to almost everything that doesn't resist it, cleanly OHKOing Dialga, a feat that few Pokemon can manage. It also deals over half to most support Arceus variants, pressuring them greatly if they try to come in and use Defog to clear away Stealth Rock. Stone Edge clips Ho-Oh's wings several times over and OHKOes 0 HP Yveltal after Stealth Rock damage, provided it has a Defense-lowering nature. It also does solid damage to Lugia, though it won't usually 2HKO. Dragon Tail is generally best in the last moveslot as it allows Groudon to check Arceus-Normal in a pinch while getting valuable chip damage on Giratina-O, who otherwise walls this set completely. It can also be run over Stone Edge if your team has a solid answer to Ho-Oh. Toxic is a great move on this set as it cripples Landorus-T and Lugia, who can otherwise handle Groudon with ease. Lava Plume is also useful for hitting Skarmory and potentially burning Landorus-T, though it lacks the general utility of Toxic.

    Another potential move that can be run on this set is Dragon Claw, which allows Groudon to break Giratina-O a lot easier, nailing 252 HP variants for a 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage. However, it is not as useful as the other moves and Giratina-O generally runs substantial Defense investment, so Dragon Claw is somewhat unreliable.

    Set Details
    ========

    The EVs maximize Groudon's Speed and attack power, as the focus of the set is to make Groudon extremely threatening offensively. An Adamant nature with and Earth Plate is usually the preferred setup, as it guarantees the OHKO on Dialga with Earthquake. A Jolly nature can also be used with Life Orb to retain the OHKO on Dialga while outpacing other Pokemon in the base 90 Speed group, such as Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and Yveltal, assuming none of them also run a Speed boosting nature. Life Orb significantly boosts Groudon's coverage moves as well, allowing for a clean OHKO on 0 HP Yveltal with Stone Edge. Groudon can even 2HKO Lugia with Life Orb boosted Stone Edge, assuming you are running an Adamant nature and Multiscale is not active. However, Life Orb's recoil cuts into down Groudon's bulk significantly.

    If you want a bulkier Groudon, you can drop the Spped Speed investment as needed. However, you should always run at least 76 Speed EVs, assuming an Adamant nature, in order to allow Groudon to outspeed 0 Speed Yveltal so it can smack it with Stone Edge before getting wrecked by Foul Play. You can also take some EVs out of Attack, but you need at least 220 EVs to retain the OHKO on Dialga, assuming an Adamant nature and Earth Plate as the item.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    This Groudon set operates effectively on offensive teams that need a reliable Stealth Rock user that can OHKO Dialga, is while being hard to set up on and able to check Arceus-Normal in a pinch. Unlike the support Groudon build, this set uses its offensive pressure and Speed rather than bulk to force switches and buy time to set up Stealth Rock, so be aggressive and don't play it like the first set. Rather, make use of Groudon's Speed, don't mindlessly spam Earthquake if your opponent has Ground immunities, and don't let it take damage it doesn't need to take.

    Team Options
    ========

    Although Toxic will cripple most of them, this set can be checked fairly easily by physical walls that can handle Earthquake such as Multiscale Lugia, Giratina, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Gliscor, and Arceus-Grass. Yveltal switches in easily on all of these Pokemon and destroys them all with its powerful STAB attacks, making it a powerful offensive complement to Groudon who can return the favor by wrecking Tyranitar and special tanks such as Sylveon with Earthquake. Aside from that, this set retains the same general weaknesses of the first set: it is vulnerable to powerful special attackers, particularly Kyogre and Kyurem-W, and is crippled by burns. Ho-Oh, Arceus-Water, and Palkia remain great teammates for these reasons. Arceus-Rock is also useful since it counters Ho-Oh and checks Yveltal fairly well, which is extremely helpful if you decide not to run Stone Edge on Groudon.

    Rock Polish
    ########
    name: Rock Polish
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Fire Punch / Swords Dance / Dragon Claw
    ability: Drought
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Rock Polish goes well with Groudon's huge Attack and mediocre Speed stat, turning it into a terrifying sweeper that can easily blow apart teams with its powerful STAB Earthquake. Stone Edge crushes most of the Flying-types that are immune to Earthquake such as Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Shaymin-S, while also 2HKOing Lugia if Multiscale is not active. Fire Punch is the primary choice for the last move as it beats many Pokemon that would otherwise wall Groudon, easily killing Skarmory, Bronzong, Arceus-Grass, and Mega Scizor, while also being the strongest option against Landorus-T and Gliscor thanks to the boost from Drought. On the other hand, Swords Dance pumps up Groudon's Attack stat even further and gives it greater power to bust through walls such as Lugia and Giratina. Groudon can potentially sweep entire teams early on in a match if it manages to nab a boost from both Rock Polish and Swords Dance, but this is difficult to do without support from Screens or significant bulk investment. If you really need Groudon to be able to break through Giratina-O by itself, Dragon Claw nabs an easy 2HKO on it, while also hitting Palkia and Giratina slightly harder.

    Set Details
    ========

    Attack is maximized to allow Groudon to hit as hard as possible, and the choice of Adamant as the nature and Life Orb as the item supports this goal further. 176 Speed EVs allows Groudon to outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion after a Rock Polish boost, with the remaining EVs going into HP to help Groudon set up more easily. If you desire more bulk, you can run less Speed investment: 136 Speed gets by Choice Scarf Garchomp after a boost, 124 EVs outspeeds Choice Scarf Palkia, and a mere 56 EVs outpaces positive natured Choice Scarf base 90's such as Kyogre and Zekrom.

    There are a few more ways to customize Groudon if you are running Swords Dance. Lum Berry is a nice option: it allows Groudon to beat Giratina in conjunction with Swords Dance and can potentially allow it to set up a second boost in the face of support Arceus that attempt to use Will-O-Wisp. However, Groudon cannot sweep as well with just a Rock Polish boost without the added power from Life Orb. If you want to set up both Rock Polish and Swords Dance more consistently, you can run a very bulky spread: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe with an Impish nature and Earth Plate as the item. This grants Groudon enough Speed to get by Choice Scarf Palkia after a Rock Polish while giving it enough bulk to set up far more easily. However, it lacks a lot of immediate power compared to more offensive builds and isn't as efficient as a pure sweeper.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Rock Polish Groudon works best a late-game sweeper, saved until it's main checks are weakened. Obviously, you shouldn't try to setup a Rock Polish until the opponent's answer to Rock Polish Groudon such as Lugia or Giratina is weakened. Swords Dance can give you more versatility against bulkier teams and a greater ability to break walls, making Groudon more useful early- or mid-game. However, even with Swords Dance, Groudon has trouble piercing walls such as Gliscor, so make sure that such roadblocks are taken out first. Use your offensive presence or solid physical bulk to buy a turn to set up if you can - trying to set up on a powerful special attack can possibly leave you dead or with too little health to sweep.

    Team Options
    ========

    This set has a very difficult time forcing its way through Gliscor, and it can still be walled by Skarmory, Arceus-Grass, or Giratina depending on what moves it decides to run. Yveltal is still a great teammate to take advantage of and destroy all of these Pokemon. Ho-Oh is also an excellent partner if Groudon is not running Fire Punch, as it can take care of Skarmory and Arceus-Grass while softening up walls such as Lugia, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon with potential Sacred Fire burns. As a bonus, Ho-Oh handles Choice Scarf Shaymin-S with ease, who can outspeed Groudon after a Rock Polish and revenge kill it with Seed Flare. Mixed Zekrom is also a notable teammate for this set as it can lure in and destroy with a powerful Draco Meteor bulky Ground-types such as Gliscor and Hippowdon, which Groudon may have trouble beating by itself. Zekrom is also an excellent choice against Skarmory.

    Other Options
    ########

    Thunder Wave turns Groudon into a solid paralysis spreader, crippling many of its common switch-ins such as Kyogre, Yveltal, and support Arceus. It can also be combined with Swords Dance to enable Groudon to act as an effective Lugia lure, paralyzing it and then KOing with a boosted Stone Edge. Choice Band grants Groudon ludicrous power without any setup, and its wide type coverage limits what can safely come in on it. However, Groudon's STAB has many dangerous Pokemon immune to it such as Ho-Oh and Yveltal that can take advantage of choice-locked Earthquake easily, so Choice Band is rather risky to use. Hammer Arm is Groudon's most powerful option against Arceus-Normal and Mega Kangaskhan, but otherwise, it has limited utility. Overheat OHKOes even the specially bulky variants of Skarmory and does a nice chunk of damage to Gliscor, but it lacks the utility of Lava Plume and the consistency of Fire Punch if you really need a Fire-type attack.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Physical Walls**: Physically bulky Pokemon that can handle Earthquake make fine Groudon checks. Gliscor is the best of the lot: it is immune to Groudon's STAB, takes little from its other moves, is immune to Toxic, and can easily Toxic stall Groudon to death. Skarmory and Bronzong wall any Groudon set lacking a Fire-type attack. Hippowdon and Landorus-T are bulky enough to tank most of Groudon's hits, but they need to watch out for Toxic and possible burns from Lava Plume. Lugia is faster than Groudon and can easily stall it out with Multiscale and Toxic, but it detests taking Toxic itself and won't enjoy a boosted Stone Edge either. Cresselia gets a special mention as she hard counters Groudon almost completely, with her only true fear being Toxic.

    **Status**: Groudon absolutely detests burn as it halves its Attack and the passive damage wears it out quickly. Support Arceus, the Giratina formes, and Ho-Oh are all common burn spreaders Groudon must watch out for, though Ho-Oh won't enjoy Stone Edge even from a burned Groudon. Toxic is also cripping to defensive sets and it puts offensive ones on a timer.

    **Powerful Special Attackers**: Although Groudon's special bulk is by no means bad, it can't hold for out long against the vicious special attackers of Ubers. Although many special attackers have trouble switching directly in, Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Reshiram, and Shaymin-S are particularly dangerous as they can easily OHKO Groudon with their STAB attacks. Mega Gengar gets a special mention, as it can trap and eliminate a weakened Groudon, especially if it has Energy Ball. However, Groudon usually has to be significantly weakened for Mega Gengar to finish it off reliably, lest it be OHKOed in return by Earthquake.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)