Gen 2 GSC BP!

[Jorgen]

GSC BP!​

I figured I'd post the B(aton) P(ass) team I used during SPL (not really "mine" by any means) and sort of share my thoughts on how to play it. Specifically, it's hyper-offensive Agility-pass, not another variety of Baton Pass-centered team like Mean Look pass or Growth Pass. It comes across as stream-of-consciousness and it's a bit rushed because I cba to organize my thoughts or anything, so be wary. There's also definitely room for improvement and more careful calculation, at the end of the day this is Pokemon, so, ya know... I kinda half-assed the rigor here. But maybe it's a decent springboard for people who have never considered the calculation inherent in BP before.

Smeargle @ MiracleBerry
-Spore
-Baton Pass
-Agility
-Spider Web
​

Smeargle is the thing you lead to ensure you get off on the right foot. He uses ultimate Spider Web cheese which may or may not need to be banned; if you're playing on PO or it eventually gets legit banned, Substitute is generally the preferred move to dodge things like Sleep Powder and Explosion from Exeggutor.

The idea is to Agility on T1 if possible. If they lead a Phazer, you get Roared out, no harm no foul. If they don't Phaze for whatever reason, you Spore and win. THE EXCEPTION is Reflect + Roar Raikou. In this case, you go Spider Web if you want to play for the insta-win (but be careful, because if they attack instead, you're done; it's an insidious 50/50 if they decide to get ballsy and not just Phaze). The Spider Web strat works against any Screener, by the by. If they lead a non-Phazer (like, say, Zapdos), then they either stay in to Thunder to ensure you don't get a second chance, or they go to one of a pair of Phazers. Be careful about Sporing that Phazer; you probably want to hold off on actually using Spore until you've forced them to sac the Phazer YOU want them to. If you anticipate the Phazer switch-in, Spider Web is a decent idea; that's a 50% chance of instantly winning right there if Sleep is in the longer half of possible durations. If they lead a Spiker, I'd suggest going for Spider Web to prevent them from going for Spikes, as a quick Spore -> Agi -> BP can instantly win there. If they lead Egg or Gengar, it's tricky, as their objective best move is to Explode to prevent you from setting up. So hardswitching to Scizor is probably best, although at the same time, if they play suboptimally (which you might be trying to get them to do with a BP team) and go for Sleep instead, then Spider Web or Agility is the objective best move, respectively. If they lead a sleeper like Nidoking, you Agi on turn 1 and are basically forced to Spore turn 2. Nido's really annoying, it's a shame Machamp can't break him. You then need to rely on Jolteon to para Kou or wear down Steelix, or for Snorlax to nab Skarm/Lix for you, or for their Phazer to please pretty please be Tyranitar (or nothing). If the opposing lead is ST Lax, it's tricky. Spider Web traps him, but if he Curses, you struggle to really do anything about it. I guess the best plan is to Spider Web turn 1, Spore turn 2 (which beats any non-ST Lax, and forces ST Lax to rely on good talks), then you either go right to Champ hoping he hits Rest or that you Crit, OR you go to Scizor hoping you get more SDs than he does Curses and THEN find an opening to pass to Champ, OR you play it mega-safe, bring in your own Lax, and just play to blow up on the other Lax with your own.

If they use a Tentacruel lead, you'll want to go to Jolt to prevent setup. Agility before doing so can be good though, as you survive a SB, and if you bait Tenta into going for another to kill you, that's a chance to BP to Wak. Encore leads won't do anything to you unless they're slower (Donphan/Clefable), although if they are slower you may actually want to Spore them as both prominent slow Encore users can mess you up afterward; you have nothing to switch into Donphan EQs, really, and Fable given time to BD just sweeps you. If they use a Sub/Curse/Roar/Frustration Kangaskhan (and as a lead, no less)... this is the one I haven't really figured out anything playable for. It's just gg as far as I can tell. And other fourth moves I've considered (namely Super Fang, Dbond, Psong, Encore) all seem really janky. Super Fang and Dbond fall to optimal play (and while you often play for mistakes when using BP, if they're CTing you with Kanga... they probably know their shit), making Psong and Encore the only legit ways to deal with this problem, but that sacrifices Spider Web, which is really, really handy for posing a legit threat against T1 Reflect users, particularly the semi-common Raikou (although Encore might be helpful there).

Snorlax @ Leftovers
-Mega Kick
-Earthquake
-Belly Drum
-Self-Destruct​

Yeah, that's Mega Kick. Snorlax's main role actually isn't to receive BP, but if it does, it's nice to have a STAB that can both OHKO Cloyster at +6 AND doesn't limit you to 3 KOs before you kill yourself (and if they spare their Phazing Raikou and Skarm, life could still be very hard for you). You aim is instead to get in, pose a threat, enough of one to goad Skarm into coming in as you drum, then blow up on it. So you want the Lefties to let you switch in on stuff. Ideally, you only bust this out after tossing out Spore from Smeargle; otherwise, they might actually switch Skarm out anticipating LK. Or maybe that's exactly what you want, who knows, but it's certainly important to recognize that if Smeargle has Spored, Skarm is pretty reliably staying in on you, and if it hasn't, then it's less about calculation and more about mindgames.

I had considered conservative Lax sets here, but being able to bait and kill Skarm is kind of important for Scizor to be able to do anything, and he's sort of necessary as he's the BPer that keeps Lax from just coming in to Curse up on him, plus he deals with Egg pretty nicely.

Jolteon @ Leftovers
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [Water]
-Agility
-Baton Pass​

Jolt, the classic AgiPasser, is something of a weak link on the team imo, but he's immensely valuable for shooing off Cloysters and Skarms that otherwise would stay in to go for Booms and Phazes, respectively. HP water to wear down Lixes, and you need Lefties to last versus Raikous, as tempting as MiracleBerry might be to be able to set up on Eggs and Gengars. Tbolt I like to be able to reliably get hits where you need them, especially as I find Jolt is frequently in revenge-killer situations. That said, Thunder is tempting for the extra para chance vs. Raikou and the (likely) 2HKO vs. Gengar.

Marowak @ Thick Club
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Hidden Power [Bug]
-Swords Dance​

Wak is sort of your main Pass target, and the thing you're ultimately maneuvering to get a Speed boost to facilitate a sweep. Once he's +2/+2 basically nothing stops him. HP Bug is the preferred option, as the standard sequence versus standard offense ends with Agi-, but not SD-, boosted Marowak standing off versus Egg, and you want to threaten the OHKO there.

Machamp @ MiracleBerry
-Cross Chop
-Rock Slide
-Hidden Power [Bug]
-Meditate​

Machamp is another slightly weak link, but something I see as necessary for shooing away Laxen. MiracleBerry is to handle LK Lax, although it's also nice for eating Thunder paras as Champ rarely OHKOs things the way Wak can, and it's also nice for preventing Sleep Powder from Egg. Meditate preserves the speed advantage against Gengar, which means you can play for Flinches. Being +1 also means an OHKO on Egg, and a 2HKO on Starmie/Zapdos, which are important. I figure Curse won't help too much if you need to be coming in on Lax when he's +1 anyway, especially without Lefties. Oftentimes, Champ's role is fulfilled by him getting Lax to extremely low health, thereby sidelining him anyway. So don't be too afraid of Champ dying before Lax does - he's still the best thing to fight it, especially with possible CC crits! I've considered Counter as a possible move too, but the bigger threat is probably Snorlax staying in and just Cursing to +3 on you, Resting up, then OHKOing you on a ST. One thing to consider is Encore to deal with Lax, although missing out on Rock Slide is probably too prohibitive a loss. Perhaps Encore Fable might be a suitable replacement here? The issue there though is that if Fable takes a hit instead of coming in on a Curse, he's boned. But having the ability to prevent Curses is golden in itself (and no, just using Encore on Smeargle doesn't quite achieve this, as he doesn't really set up on and subsequently whittle down Lax's health while staying in to re-Encore him once it wears off).

Scizor @ MiracleBerry
-Hidden Power [Bug]
-Swords Dance
-Agility
-Baton Pass​

HP Bug I like most as you need a BPer that can immediately shoo Egg; otherwise, he stays in and just makes your life hell. MiracleBerry is there to let you switch in on a Sleep Powder if need be; it also prevents, say, an LK Lax from ruining your plan. SD up if both you and Lax come in at the same time, if he LKs that turn you can pass immediately to Champ as he LKs again (again tripping a berry), and then you threaten an OHKO. It's admittedly a convoluted scenario unlikely to happen in practice, but it's something theoretically appealing that prompted me to put MiracleBerries on these two. I dunno, Lefties might still be better still.

Importable:​

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Smeargle @ MiracleBerry
-Spore
-Baton Pass
-Agility
-Spider Web

Snorlax @ Leftovers
-Mega Kick
-Earthquake
-Belly Drum
-Self-Destruct

Jolteon @ Leftovers
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [Water]
-Agility
-Baton Pass

Marowak @ Thick Club
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Hidden Power [Bug]
-Swords Dance

Machamp @ MiracleBerry
-Cross Chop
-Rock Slide
-Hidden Power [Bug]
-Meditate

Scizor @ MiracleBerry
-Hidden Power [Bug]
-Swords Dance
-Agility
-Baton Pass

 

[Shax]

I'm using your team to great success on the Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown ladders currently.

I've had two hurdles come across so far with this team though.

1: On Pokemon Online Spider Web and Sleep Move is banned, so I use Substitute instead of Spider Web.

2: On Pokemon Showdown Hidden Powers are bugged currently so I changed the team up to have Substitute on Jolteon, Fire Blast on Machamp and Marowak, and Hidden Power Dark on Scizor.

Any ideas, suggestions? After looking at your team again what would you do to make it better?

 

[Jorgen]

So as it stands, Curse Hera just sets up and wins against this team. Easy fix to that is HP Flying on Marowak. That makes it difficult to punish an Egg for staying in, though.

There's alterations like MLPass Umb and using "sturdy" drummers like Quag and Fable. Those tend to result in teams that can scrape by with a win if things go wrong at first, although in my experience it's less the AgiPass and more the BD Spam that makes that sort of team work.

This team doesn't really work without Hidden Powers. However, that's fixed now. However, in terms of the Spider Web thing, Encore is probably the best 4th on Smeargle, actually. Otherwise you kinda just lose to Reflect Raikou. You also stand a chance against Kanga if you use Encore.

 

[Jorgen]

Berserk Gene on Jolteon -> pass to Miracle Machamp seems like a fun tweak to try.

Also I've seen a lot of people on ladder freely tossing out Spores with Smeargle when using this team. Don't do that, you want to hold onto that threat until you absolutely need to use it. Otherwise you just waste Sleep.

 

[Shax]

I've noticed alot of people trying to use Smeargle as a pivot pokemon instead of a Spore machine and Spider Web trapper. It just doesn't work out unless you have Celebi. Why Celebi? It Baton Passes and has Perish Song.

What makes Baton Pass so interesting is the Agility into Marowak combo. That one combo is so devastating it just wipes teams off the map unless you have Cloyster, Zapdos, Skarmory.

To be honest I think the teams just missing Celebi, I'd swap out Smeargle for Celebi. It could be made better also if Hypnosis and Mean Look Perish Song was legal again.

Also just slapping a Berserk Gene on Machamp, getting rid of Meditate and swapping it for Hidden Power Ghost could work out if you don't mind having to fight confusion.

 

[Isa]

are you serious lol

1. celebi is uber
2. if you baton pass with perish song active, you don't remove your own perish counter
3. what does perish song contribute to this team to begin with

 

[Jorgen]

3. psong is a niche option I've considered on Smeargle to help me deal with FUBAR situations. I've also considered Missy on teams like this to make ST Curselax a little easier to handle while still keeping up the pressure / having a chance to KO phazers with Cray shenanigans.

 

[Shax]

So the catch to Baton Pass these days is pretty simple. Don't lose to better Offense.

By better Offense I mean Offense that depends on Luck, not skill like our Baton Pass team above most of the time has. Zapdos, Tyranitar are the biggest offenders of this since they carry Thunder and Rock Slide that is extremely nasty for Machamp, Smeargle, and Jolteon. Jolteon would make the perfect lead if we had Celebi back as a Baton Passer since it would be immune to Status, and the rest of the team could forgoe Miracle Berry's. Celebi's niche as a Baton Passer is huge in GSC if it's ever allowed, but since it has the same BST as Mew I don't think that will ever happen unless Smogonites really want to see a Celebi in OU.



Theres not many ways to improve Baton Pass sadly, but thats okay with our assortment of Items your opponents never know how your going to play.