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GSC In-Game Tiers Revamp - Closed, I'll be starting this up again after I figure some stuff out

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Ender, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    [​IMG] Gold / Silver / Crystal In-Game Tiers Revamp Thread [​IMG]

    Hey everyone, since the old thread kind of stagnated a few months ago, I talked to Redew and he gave me permission to take over this project. I also think that we should start from scratch so that people who want to contribute can do so without wading through everything the last few threads on this topic have said. By all means, feel free to peruse those if you wish, but we will not be using them as the underlying basis for the tiering we do here. Also, please don't be fooled by my join date and postcount, I've been lurking on Smogon for years and have a very solid idea of how the site works. I was also inducted into the C&C Grammar-Prose team within a day of registering. I am an avid GSC (mostly Crystal) player (though I think I've put more hours into RBY and FRLG), so I feel qualified enough to lead this discussion. With all of that out of the way, let's begin!

    The first order of business is to clarify how we are ranking the Pokemon. To any of you who have participated in other in-game tiering sessions, this should be old hat.

    Here are a few things I stole from atsync's RBY In-Game Tiers article that are worth looking over:

    "The best possible Pokemon for an in-game team is one that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies easily, takes little damage in return, can learn useful moves upon leveling up, isn't too reliant on valuable TMs, and matches up well against all Gym Leaders and Elite 4 members. Naturally, such a Pokemon doesn't exist, but Pokemon that are closer to this ideal are obviously the best ones to use."

    "Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded with luck manipulation through resets; these runs aim for the absolute fastest in-game time, but the real time spent on them is usually much more. An "efficient" run simply assumes that you want to play through in a relatively short amount of real time.

    The most efficient team size for these types of runs is only one member. However, using this team size for the purposes of tiering would result in the list becoming incredibly centralized around Pokemon with specific coverage obtained early on in the game. Therefore, this list assumes teams will have at least 3 members."

    The most important characteristics that should be considered are as follows:

    Availability - This includes how early in the game it can be caught, the level it can be caught at compared to what the average Pokemon level is at that point, how easily it can be found, and how much a pain getting it to its final evolutionary form is. In addition, we have to consider how immediately useful the Pokemon is upon obtaining it. Be aware that the evolution stones are absurdly hard to obtain in Gold and Silver, and are still not overwhelmingly abundant in Crystal.

    Stats - This takes into account how high the Pokemon's overall stats are, both when you catch it and once it evolves and also how well the Pokemon's stats are distributed. Offensive stats are generally given precedence over defensive stats.

    Movepool - This considers the Pokemon's level-up movepool in addition to how many of the readily-accessible purchased TMs it can use, the most important of these being the elemental punches. This is especially important because many Pokemon have poor level-up movepools, but can become extremely useful when taught the elemental punches. How many HMs it can learn should also be considered.

    Typing - This looks at what STAB the Pokemon has and what types of attacks it resists. Certain resists are more useful than others due to the ubiquity of certain enemy attacking types.

    Endurance - Can a Pokemon run through an entire route's worth of trainers without having to retreat back to a Pokemon center? When determining a Pokemon's endurance, you shouldn't only take into account whether or not the Pokemon would need to heal constantly, but also if its PP can last. A Pokemon that can OHKO everything with only Fire Blast will be rendered useless after only two battles.

    Match-ups - How does this Pokemon fare against important trainers? Gym Leaders, Elite Four, Red, and your Rival are all included in this list. Rival battles are especially important because a few of them can be quite difficult (Azalea Town comes to mind). Again, consider how the Pokemon fares against Pokemon and trainers immediately after obtaining it.

    Other considerations include how easy it is to train and level up, the pace at which it learns good moves, how it compares to Pokemon that fulfill similar roles, and how cool it looks (kidding).

    The tiering system will divide Pokemon into 6 groups: Top, High, Mid, Low, Bottom, Unavailable. A Pokemon in Top is closest to ideal and one in Bottom is farthest away. Unavailable Pokemon are those that cannot be obtained without trading and thus will not be considered.

    When posting, just give the Pokemon, a recommendation for tier placement, and an argument for why it belongs in that tier. We will do write-ups after we've tiered everything to maximize efficiency.

    Anyone who is familiar with GSC can contribute, but don't be rude or an idiot. This is a discussion and people will inevitably disagree with each other, but polite discourse will make everything run much more smoothly. If you disagree with a placement, respond with a valid and thoughtful argument as to why you think the Pokemon should be moved.

    Here's a list of Pokemon that need to be reviewed. I will update them with discussed and done tags. Towards the end, I will start to add a tag that indicates more discussion is necessary before the Pokemon is tiered. Pokemon with a [DONE] tag will not have its tier changed without very good reason. Pokemon with tags separated by commas need to be reviewed for each indicated version. For example, a Pokemon with (GS, C) needs to have a Gold/Silver review and a Crystal review while a Pokemon with (G, C) needs a Gold review and a Crystal review.

    List
    Show Hide

    Bulbasaur [DONE]
    Charmander [DONE]
    Squirtle [DONE]
    Caterpie
    Weedle
    Pidgey
    Rattata
    Spearow
    Ekans
    Pikachu
    Sandshrew
    NidoranF
    NidoranM
    Clefairy
    Vulpix (S)
    Jigglypuff
    Zubat
    Oddish
    Paras
    Venonat
    Diglett
    Meowth (SC)
    Psyduck
    Mankey (G)
    Growlithe (GC)
    Poliwag
    Abra
    Machop
    Bellsprout
    Tentacool
    Geodude
    Ponyta
    Slowpoke
    Magnemite
    Farfetch'd
    Doduo
    Seel
    Grimer
    Shellder
    Gastly
    Onix
    Drowzee
    Krabby
    Voltorb
    Exeggcute
    Cubone
    Lickitung
    Koffing
    Rhyhorn
    Chansey
    Tangela
    Kangaskhan
    Horsea
    Goldeen
    Staryu
    Mr. Mime
    Scyther
    Jynx (GS, C)
    Electabuzz
    Magmar (GS, C)
    Pinsir
    Tauros
    Magikarp
    Red Gyarados
    Lapras
    Ditto
    Eevee (Vaporeon)
    Eevee (Jolteon)
    Eevee (Flareon)
    Porygon
    Omanyte [DONE]
    Kabuto [DONE]
    Aerodactyl
    Snorlax
    Articuno [DONE]
    Zapdos [DONE]
    Moltres [DONE]
    Dratini
    Mewtwo [DONE]
    Mew [DONE]
    Chikorita
    Cyndaquil
    Totodile
    Sentret
    Hoothoot
    Ledyba (SC)
    Spinarak (GC)
    Chinchou
    Togepi
    Natu
    Mareep (GS)
    Bellossom
    Marill
    Sudowoodo
    Hoppip
    Aipom
    Sunkern
    Yanma
    Wooper
    Eevee (Espeon)
    Eevee (Umbreon)
    Murkrow
    Misdreavus
    Unown
    Wobbuffet
    Girafarig (GS)
    Pineco
    Dunsparce
    Gligar (GC)
    Snubbull
    Qwilfish
    Scizor
    Shuckle
    Heracross
    Sneasel
    Teddiursa (G, C)
    Slugma
    Swinub
    Corsola
    Remoraid (GS)
    Delibird (SC)
    Mantine (GC)
    Skarmory (SC)
    Houndour
    Phanpy (S, C)
    Stantler
    Smeargle
    Tyrogue (GS, C)
    Smoochum (C)
    Miltank
    Raikou
    Entei
    Suicune (GS, C)
    Larvitar
    Lugia (GC, S)
    Ho-Oh (SC, G)
    Celebi [DONE]


    Let me know if I forgot anything.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
    Stellar likes this.
  2. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    Tiers
    Pokemon will not be ranked within Tiers. They will be listed alphabetically.
    Top
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]
    Abra
    Comes early, has amazing offensive stats, impeccable coverage, perhaps the most powerful Pokemon available for a runthrough.

    [​IMG]
    Totodile
    Available immediately, great movepool, good stats, useful throughout most of the game, and matches up well with Gym Leaders and normal trainers.



    High
    Show Hide



    Mid
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]
    Chinchou
    It's useful for the water routes between Olivine and Cianwood, can take on Chuck's Poliwrath and Jasmine's Steelix, matches up alright against some Elite Four members, but has middling stats and a relatively poor movepool outside of Spark and Surf. It has useful STAB and comes at a good time, but that's really about it.


    Low
    Show Hide



    Bottom
    Show Hide

    Delibird
    Ditto
    Hoppip
    Ledyba
    Misdreavus
    Murkrow
    Shuckle
    Slugma
    Smeargle
    Togepi
    Unown


    Unavailable
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]
    Bulbasaur
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Charmander
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Squirtle
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Omanyte
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Kabuto
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Articuno
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Moltres
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Mewtwo
    Trade from R/B/Y

    [​IMG]
    Mew
    Trade from R/B/Y
    Only available through special events or glitches.

    [​IMG]
    Celebi
    Only available through special events.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  3. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    It's nice to see someone take this up, and I'm hopeful that this will end up being finished. Given that I was heavily involved with the RBY In-Game Tier List thread, perhaps I can give some suggestions.

    For me, one of the things about the RBY In-Game Tier List discussion that I thought could have been better was the way that the positions of each Pokemon was decided at the same time as the write-ups. Basically, people would write it up, and they would put it in whatever tier they personally felt was appropriate. In hindsight, I think this wasn't a good idea because there were so many different people writing with different ideas about what is "good" and what is "bad" in-game that we ended up with tier positions that were a bit inconsistent or questionable. For example, you could have 2 Pokemon that are very similar to each other in function/efficiency, but they would end up in different tiers because 2 different people wrote their analyses and had different opinions about them (the most obvious example for me is Nidoran vs. Clefairy; Nidoran was Top right from the start but Clefairy was initially lower down until we moved it up much later).

    Another issue related to this was when writers would tier the Pokemon but would overlook something in their write-up that might affect where it should be tiered. Usually this would relate to the Availability section, where the writer would talk about obtaining the Pokemon in one way when there was an alternative way they overlooked that was clearly more efficient.

    To avoid these problems, I think the best way to approach this tier list would be to discuss the tiering of each Pokemon first. Once we have discussed what is good and bad about each Pokemon and a consensus for its tiering has been reached, THEN the write-up would be done. Like, you could select a group of 10 Pokemon that haven't been tiered and ask everyone to state what tier it should go in and why, and decide tiers that way.

    That's just my opinion though and it's up to you to decide how to approach this. Obviously my suggestion depends a bit on activity, and if there aren't enough people willing to participate then it might not work very well.

    EDIT: Oh, and be careful with using "how it compares to Pokemon that fulfil similar roles" to tier Pokemon. It can be helpful to compare Pokemon sometimes (like if Pokemon A is in Mid and Pokemon B does the same thing with similar "effectiveness" then Pokemon B can go in Mid too) but we want to avoid putting Pokemon in lower tiers than they deserve to be just because it's outclassed by something (e.g. if Pokemon A is judged to be Mid on its own terms but is blatantly outclassed by another Pokemon that is already in Mid, then Pokemon A should still go Mid regardless, although the write-up should still state that it is outclassed so that people who read the write-up know this).
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  4. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    Hey atsync,

    I actually read through the entirety of the RBY tier thread in the past and am currently reading through it again (I love these types of discussions), and I think you bring up very valid points.

    Right, I can see how this could be a major issue, especially with how Nidoran vs. Clefairy went in RBY and, looking back at the previous GSC thread, Chikorita vs. Cyndaquil. The reason I posted a recommended format for tiering is so we don't get things like "Totodile is top otherwise your dumb", but Smogon seems to be a fairly intelligent community as a whole and I doubt that we'll get these type of answers anyways. I also thought it would help people to outline their arguments for placing a Pokemon in a tier, but that could also be achieved just by writing a description. I think that I will change the requirement to just vouching for a tier and an explanation as to why you're giving such a recommendation. I also liked in your RBY thread how you went through the entire list 5-6 Pokemon at a time to see if there were any objections to current placements and then decided on a final tiering. This is something I plan on emulating once this reaches the later stages of its development.

    I agree. I wasn't going to make people's write-ups in this stage the final write-ups at all, especially since that would be a major barrier to making the end product a combination of multiple people's arguments. I think what I'll end up doing is putting the Pokemon in a tier along with a bulleted list of why people think it is in that tier and then, as you suggested, do a final write-up at the end.

    Hopefully this won't be a problem.

    Right, and especially in the middle tiers, this is something to be very careful about, but it plays more of a part when choosing to rank something in top vs high. I'll make sure that it isn't an overused argument though, and that Pokemon are primarily ranked according to individual merit.

    In addition, I'm going to start this thread off with a few suggestions, and I would love to hear other people's input.

    Totodile
    I am in strong favor of putting Totodile in top. It's perhaps (IMO) the best Water Pokemon in the game with an incredibly diverse movepool (Surf, Ice Punch, Bite, Earthquake, strong Normal attacks), it's available early and matches up well (or at least not poorly) in the beginning of the game (Sprout tower is not a problem since you have access to three flying types before that point, each of which learns a flying attack by level 10), and doesn't taper off late game in terms of usability. Totodile doesn't necessarily hit everything SE, but it doesn't really lose to anything either.

    Abra
    You can buy it in Goldenrod, immediately teach it all three e-punches, and go to town for literally the entire game. I would say easily top. The convenience of the three e-punch TMs means it doesn't even have a dead-weight period like it did in RBY, and even though we're not considering trade evolutions (so no Alakazam), Kadabra's 120/105 offensive stats are virtually unrivaled.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  5. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Agreeing with this.

    Just to clarify, generally we don't actually disallow trade evolutions when tiering for in-game runs. I know that sounds a bit contradictory of the no trades rule, but...that's just the way it's done.

    The approach we normally take for these Pokemon is "allow trading, but don't assume it." This basically means that we have to assess the Pokemon for both the trade and non-trade situations. If we decide that the Pokemon ends up in the same tier regardless of whether you can trade or not, then the Pokemon just gets one entry that covers both options. If we decide that one option ends up in a higher tier than the other (something I could see happening for Onix, for example) then the Pokemon has 2 entries, one where you can trade and one where you can't.

    But yeah Abra is Top regardless of whether you can trade or not.
  6. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    I thought I saw somewhere on Redew's thread that they weren't considering trade evolutions at all, but since trade evolutions are generally very similar to their previous forms, it's mostly a non-issue.
  7. Chinchou

    Chinchou Banned deucer.

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    Chinchou
    Chinchou deserves High tier in my opinion. It evolves at a nice level at 27. It is also very easy to obtain with a good rod! 75 HP, on a little baby Pokemon, is really good. It's Speed is also nice :) It isn't that great much else, but it is still usable. It has the BoltBeam combo, only resisted by itself and Magnemite, and gets Parafusion. Another notable move is Hydro Pump, a powerful move that is available at Level 41! A less notable move it gets is Zap Cannon, which can be used in a powerful Parafusion combo.
    Lanturn314 likes this.
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I'd probably say Red Gyarados > Totodile, but honestly it's personal opinion and Red Gyarados's a nice choice for a water-type if you didn't use Totodile.
    Also, I'd say that Scyther and Scizor are definitely different enough to warrant separate entries, even if both end up in the same tier. Of course, if you're not doing trade evos, Scizor can be ignored.

    That said,

    Red Gyarados
    Comes at an excellent level of 30, Surf easily turns Geodudes into free EXP, while Thrash and Bite are pretty reliable attacks. Strong attacker with good bulk and has decent utility. Top.

    Geodude
    Tanks earlygame forever, trivialises Falkner, Bugsy and Whitney (ROLLOUT!), and can blow up if the situation calls for it. Wears off lategame after special attacks start becoming more common, but can still blow up and has good STAB combination. High.

    @above: Lanturn doesn't have BoltBeam... Ice Beam is post-E4 (and Crystal only!) and you can't teach Blizzard. I don't think a 50% accuracy move makes a good argument either...
  9. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    From personal experience, I would say Red Gyarados is fantastic when you first get it due to it being overleveled and having immediate access to thrash (I think I also gave it headbutt) off of a fantastic attack score, but I found that its usefulness wanes a bit due to it really not getting any workable moves after that. You're really just running around firing off non-STAB normal attacks and maybe using Surf. It does do very well against the rockets though, being able to run through potentially a whole grunt's team with just 1pp of Thrash, and I agree that you can have it work well with 2 water HMs, Strength, and Thrash. I would make the case for high if for nothing else but poor movepool. Thrash can only get you so far and it's slow enough that a decent number of faster Pokemon can get hits in. However, if it remains overleveled (like if you solo the rocket section with it, which is entirely feasible), then yeah, it's going to obliterate everything. Even though I am vouching for it for high, I would be fine with it in top, I just don't see it as game-breaking as Abra and Totodile who have better stat distributions for their usage (I'm not saying Gyarados has bad stats, just that they're allocated inefficiently for its movepool and typing) and better coverage (normal/water is great, but Gyarados is generally going to be running normal attacks). I'd like to hear more opinions on this one.

    I agree with this. Geodude certainly makes the early game a lot easier, especially because the first three gyms are on the upper end of the relative difficulty curve. Magnitude and Rock Throw are excellent early-mid game attacks, but lack of any other good rock attacks hurts it later on, though rock types become far less necessary once you have access to different Pokemon since geodude's best feature is its massive defense and incredibly useful resistances. I would vouch for high as well.

    And yeah, Lanturn was very underwhelming. The only thing going for it is that you can train it against everything in the water route, but it only gets spark and thunderbolt/thunder are not worth teaching it (or can't even be taught to it in the case of GS thunderbolt). Zap Cannon is a terrible move in general, especially in-game with 5 pp and only 50% hit rate. Its lack of general battling utility after the water route hurts it a lot (I guess you could use it against Pryce, but then again, you can use anything against Pryce). I would say low or perhaps mid.
  10. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Agreeing with Geodude in High. The fact that it loses usefulness later on prevents it from reaching Top but it is still really useful (and it's one of the few reliable answers to Miltank).

    I actually put did an analysis for Chinchou in the old thread and put it in Mid:

    Show Hide
    Chinchou
    Availability: Midway through Johto, via fishing with a Good Rod.
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Above Average
    Gyms that it fares well against: Wide coverage is helpful. Spark and Surf work well together. It can hold its own Chuck’s Poliwrath, Jasmine’s Steelix, and Pryce’s team, and remains useful against particular elite 4 Pokémon (Gyarados, Onix, Murkrow, Slowbro, Xatu, etc.). It can also take on Brock, Misty and Blaine.
    Other info: The Electric typing is a nice twist on what would otherwise be a generic Water type. Despite its middling stats, its STABs alone make it useful and it provides utility by learning all of the Water HMs. A set of Surf/Waterfall/Whirlpool/Spark is probably its best bet.


    I still think Mid is the way to go. It's still decent because Surf and Spark hit hard despite the mediocre stats, and it has a few good match-ups. High is a bit much though.
  11. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    So are we taking both Johto and Kanto conquests into consideration? I think it's a choice that will affect the tiering of many of the 'mons. For example, Red Gyarados has a big level lead but once you're in Johto, you'd rather want something with good STABs and higher special attack.

    Also, how about a separate tier list for Crystal? The availability of Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower should make a big difference.
  12. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    We're taking up through Red, so both Johto and Kanto are being considered. Also, the inclusion of the three signature elemental beam moves from the move tutor won't make a huge difference because getting 4000 coins takes a lot of time and many Pokemon can learn the elemental punches, which can easily replace them.
  13. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I think that might not be an entirely accurate assessment of the problem. The main "punchers" in the game are the Abra line and Gengar, with high enough sp. atk. stats to tear things to pieces with SE punches. There are some cases where a punch move is just good enough and lets you keep your money, but there are even more cases of the opposite. You also have mons like Ursaring and Machamp who get plenty of punches but would rather attack with physical moves. What fits your description are the numerous waters with access to Ice Punch, but not all waters have that luxury either.

    Let's have a quick look at each of the three moves:

    Thunderbolt VS Thunderpunch

    the following Pokemon appreciate extended coverage that Thunderbolt provides
    Starmie
    Lapras
    Girafarig
    Dragonair - appreciates good offensive moves besides Surf before its late evolution (which actually exists in Kanto!)
    Haunter - if you can't trade to get Gengar, you have no access to Thunderbolt (though that raises the question why you even baby Haunter to enter Kanto at a respectable level because it cannot fight at all, though the Shadow Ball TM is okay)

    the following Pokemon could use an update to Spark
    Lanturn
    Raikou

    electrics who want a stronger move
    Electrode - completely STABless otherwise
    Magneton - doesn't get Spark in this gen

    Ice Beam VS Ice Punch

    mons who'd rather have something stronger than Icy Wind
    Tentacruel
    Starmie
    Kingdra
    Dragonair
    Lanturn
    Piloswine
    Delibird

    the following Pokemon could use an update to Aurora Beam
    Cloyster
    Vaporeon
    Suicune

    Flamethrower vs Fire Punch

    Ninetales - if you didn't wait till L31 with Vulpix
    Growlithe - L34 Flame Wheel / L50 Flamethrower is really late, so you're stoning it right away for better bases most probably
    Rapidash - update to Ember/Fire Spin
    Dragonair - coverage before evolution

    4K coins is also not such a disaster, especially compared to 5,5K coins needed for Fire Blast/Blizzard/Thunderbolt, and you get more accuracy/PP for those. You can definitely afford at least one after the E4, and there's really no better investment to be made. Better teams have little use for dozens of Hyper Potions and Full Restore so you could save those for granting yourself better offensive options.

    Now, for many Pokemon the access to the 95 BP specials is probably not tier-changing, but others, like Electrode, Magneton and Rapidash pretty much require an appropriate tutor move to function well in Kanto, and I could see it making a difference in their tier position.
  14. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Well if we decide that the Crystal move tutors are enough to change the tier of certain Pokemon then those Pokemon should get separate entries. I don't think we need to have 2 separate tier lists though.

    ---------------------------------------

    To save time, can we just shove all of these into Bottom tier?

    Delibird - poor stats, limited movepool (apparently it can't even learn Ice Punch?!?)
    Ditto - bad stats, no movepool, Transform is just stupid
    Ledyba - horrible offenses, limited movepool, bad type
    Misdreavus - misses out on almost the entire game, mediocre stats, limited movepool
    Murkrow - arrives very late, mediocre stats and movepool
    Shuckle - poor stat distribution for in-game runs, TM dependent
    Slugma - comes really late, bad type, slow and not that powerful
    Smeargle - terrible stats, difficult to get a good moveset together
    Togepi - horrible movepool and below average offensive stats, really weak before it evolves (by happiness)
    Unown - bad stats, only has Hidden Power

    I can write more comprehensive arguments for these if required but honestly I think we should get some of these shitmons over with so we can talk about more interesting Pokemon.
  15. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    The 95 BP tutor is only available after HoF. I suppose these guys can be workable if you factor Kanto (likely, seeing as Hall of Fame is only half the game), but things like Lanturn having to work with Spark all the way is just meh-ish. You probably have the 80k to spare after Hall of Fame for one of the 95 moves, so things like Starmie might work (though 160k for boltbeam is... i'd rather just use E-punch electabuzz or kadabra)

    I guess dudes might be able to get away with Ice Punch just for killing Dragonites, but it really depends: personally I've never needed to resort to random Ice Punches on everything.

    IMO Suicune works fine with Aurora Beam.

    How are you going to handle the Odd Egg in Crystal? I suppose you can add separate entries for the mons (Pichu, Smoochum, Elekid, Magby, Tyrouge, Cleffa and Igglybuff, off the top of my head). They'll have issues coming underlevelled, even compared to the Ilex scrubs, but hey it works. Still, they come a lot earlier than when they should show up (Magmar and Electabuzz are Kanto mons...), so they're different enough to warrant entries imo. (except maybe Tyrouge, but whatever) Dizzy Punch isn't really a big deal, but still...
  16. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    I realize that a lot of Pokemon don't have access to the punches and that giving them a 95 bp coverage move can be useful, but I don't think they should be considered for tiering purposes. Remember, we're trying to gauge viability for an efficient runthrough. Spending 80k on a single move is not efficient. For the same amount, you can buy ~25 full restores and use those to plow through the E4 or Gym Leaders. If you want to go a step further, using an X-Special on a Pokemon with Icy Wind will make it about as strong as Ice Beam anyway. That being said, there are only two cases where I could see this being an issue at all. First is Haunter. I realize that Haunter can't learn the punches until Gengar, but if you can't evolve Haunter, there's no point using it anyway, as Kadabra can do everything it can but better (except for sleep, which is really only useful for catching things). I would be perfectly fine with doing a Haunter (non-trade) and a Gengar, because there is clearly a significant difference between the two.

    Starmie is the other one where there might be a difference because it's fast, powerful, and has a great TM movepool, but there's an opportunity cost for everything and spending 80 or 160k on ice beam, thunderbolt, or both is not the most efficient use of resources when it's clearly possible to finish the game easily without them.

    I would not like to take into account game corner prizes on the ground that they are not considered efficient (with the sole exception of obtaining Abra) but this is a community project and thus I'd like to know what other people have to say.

    Edit: I'm really unsure how to handle the odd egg. I've personally never really found them worth using, especially with lvl 30 evolutions for a lot of them (I used a Pichu once, but that was still annoying, especially since I also had things that could learn thunderpunch and just be more useful in general), but we could add separate entries for them if necessary.
  17. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I can't argue with any of atsync's proposed Bottom mons. I'd also add Hoppip, Cleffa and Tyrogue to the list. G/S Sneasel is even more useless than Misdreavus I think (as Misdreavus can at least totally stop Red's Snorlax).

    Agreed that separate entries are preferred to having different tier lists for G/S and Crystal.

    I beg to differ. An efficient run beats opponents without trouble (even a Low Tier team can beat the E4 without too many casualties, albeit not as quickly as, say, a Kadabra or a Feraligatr solo) and thus has barely any use for Full Restores. In most of my runs, I have a few Full Heals, some Revives, and the rest are Lemonades I buy in Goldenrod at the start that often last me until the end of the game, with maybe half a dozen Hyper Potions (but really most of the healing is done after important battles with cheap Lemonades) that aren't necessarily going to be used. You have way more money than that, especially if you continue to use an Amulet Coin lead - just the cooltrainers and the E4 provide for a lot of cash, and you can easily afford two 95 BP moves in a single efficient run. Not that you're obliged to - but they're there.

    I'd say the tutors shouldn't be assumed (because they're potentially contested by several team mates) but they should definitely be considered.

    I don't like the mention of X items. With enough X specials, Ledian's Ice Punches are about as good as Alakazam's. Doesn't mean Ledian is an adequate alternative to using Alakazam. X items really do remove the key differences in mons' typing, learnset, base stats. OHKOing with Ice Beam is more efficient to not OHKOing (or taking an additional turn) with Icy Wind.

    I'm a bit confused about this comparison because tradeless Haunter and Kadabra are literally nothing alike, aside from having high sp. atk. and speed stats. Kadabra gets all the STAB psychic moves, all 3 punches, Reflect. Haunter has a great defensive typing (not as effective as it was in RBY though), Shadow Ball, status and annoyance moves, can learn Thunder if you're reckless with money (or want Haunter to actually have a special attack before Kanto). And Kadabra outclasses everything so comparing something to Kadabra isn't very fair.

    I pointed out some other cases where a 95 BP move makes a big difference in tier position besides Haunter (Starmie can just spam Surf).

    Concerning the old egg, consider it the GSC equivalent to going to Safari Zone to catch Tauros or Chansey in gen 1. You don't know what's inside the egg once it hatches and you may not want to train the offspring when you get it. If it's something like Elekid or Smoochum, you're really lucky indeed, but the odds are no better than expecting to have that sexy bull after your Safari Zone trip. Jynx and Jigglypuff (and also GS Magmar) are available evolved so the old egg is unnecessary for them, but the rest probably belong in Low/Bottom tiers depending on mon (Elekid worthy of Low, Tyrogue and Cleffa Bottom).
  18. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    Agree with all this.

    I think I misrepresented the point I was trying to make. All I was trying to say is that there are probably more efficient ways of using 80k than spending it on a move for a Pokemon that probably doesn't need it, and even if it could be considered efficient (I guess you don't really need much money for other stuff), I don't think it would change the tier of any Pokemon because 1) It would be considered the same as a highly exclusive and highly sought-after TM (If you only get one of the three, which is probably the most reasonable thing to assume if any are allowed at all) and 2) Pokemon that can make use of the attacks are already either good or unsalvageable. If we were to consider them, I really don't think that we should allow their ability to use MT moves to bump them up, as if they are only usable with the MT move, they're probably a shitty Pokemon anyway. They would be considered far too dependent for a high tier and thus would make a poor candidate for an efficient runthrough.

    I was only giving an example of more efficient ways to use money. I'm not advocating using X items as a basis for tiering. Sorry if that's how it came off.

    Spamming status and annoyer moves is not an efficient way to run through the game, and reflect's usage is highly situation. Saying "Haunter kind of sucks by itself but is AWESOME when you give it Thunderbolt" is not a good way to rank the viability of Haunter as a Pokemon because Thunderbolt is not something that can be assumed. Haunter's best chance of being useful is emulating Kadabra (even if it doesn't do it as well). Failing that, it really does not contribute very much, as it has an exceptionally shitty movepool. I stand by my point of doing a Haunter/Gengar split since Gengar is very useful and Haunter is much worse.

    I'm really confused why you're trying to push for MT moves making a huge impact on tiering. They don't. First of all, this guy doesn't even show up until after Hall of Fame. Second, the opportunity cost of obtaining a move from him is so high that you're likely to get maybe one for the whole game and then that move will have so much competition that it can't be assumed when ranking any Pokemon. Will it make any Pokemon that gets the move better? Absolutely. Will it change how the Pokemon is ranked? No. It's like Dig in RBY. Will Dig make a Pokemon awesome? Most likely. But Dig makes everything awesome and you only get one of them and it's probably going to the best Pokemon on your team, and thus will not affect tiering. Same thing here. You're not going to pay 80k to give Ice Beam to Piloswine. That Ice Beam is probably going to something like Feraligatr where it will be most useful.

    On top of everything else, once you're in Kanto, you're going to be like "I have a team of solid Pokemon that I can use now to beat the game". You're not going to be any of the following (again assuming efficiency):

    A) I trained this really shitty Pokemon all through Johto so that I can now teach it Ice Beam now!

    B) I'm going to catch a new completely underleveled Pokemon here that's worse than most of my teammates so that I can teach it Thunderbolt!

    Scenario A and B would make a shitty Pokemon better, but does not make it "not shitty". You still put a lot of time and effort into training it when you could have just used better Pokemon in the first place. It's still reliant on that move to be good, and even then, the amount of time and resources you used to train it or baby it through Johto will not be made up for by teaching it a move, when chances are one of your other Pokemon that you've been using to get you through the game can make use of the move with higher stats/better overall coverage/higher level/etc.

    A lot of Pokemon can learn MT moves which means the overall effect of it being available is reduced. Now if only, say, three Pokemon in the entire game could learn MT moves, then that would probably have an effect on tiering since there would be a substantial reward for taking the time and effort to train it, but when both Feraligatr and Qwilfish (and literally every single water Pokemon) can learn Ice Beam, why bother with Qwilfish if you have Feraligatr?

    Also, having access to a level up Ice-type attack like Aurora Beam makes a Pokemon infinitely better than being able to learn Ice Beam through TM.

    Due to the luck that's inherently involved in the determination off the Odd Egg Pokemon, I think this is a good approach and we can comfortably say that it will have negligible effect on tiering.
  19. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I also agree with keeping the Odd Egg Pokemon lower down on the tier list. They're too under-levelled to bother with.

    Regarding which ones we actually give entries to, here's how I'd approach each Odd Egg Pokemon and their evolutions:
    • Igglybuff/Jigglypuff - Odd Egg Igglybuff should not get an analysis. Jigglypuff is found at a higher level on the same route as the Day Care Centre in Crystal. There's no reason to use Igglybuff at all. At best, we can give it a brief mention in Jigglypuff's entry if we must mention it, more as a "don't use this" kind of thing.
    • Magby/Magmar - Odd Egg Magby should definitely get an analysis because Magmar is locked away in Mt. Silver in Crystal. In fact, I would just do an analysis for GS Magmar and Crystal Magby, and not even give the wild Crystal Magmar an analysis (like Igglybuff, it can get a brief mention in Magby's analysis at best).
    • Tyrogue - Odd Egg Tyrogue would only get a separate analysis from GS Tyrogue if we decide that they belong in different tiers. However, I don't think either is particularly good and they should probably just be combined into 1 entry.
    • Pichu/Pikachu, Cleffa/Clefairy, Elekid/Electabuzz, and Smoochum/Jynx - Pichu, Cleffa, Elekid, and Smoochum should probably all get separate analysis (well, Jynx is debatable because it's also in Johto, but the others definitely). Pikachu, Clefairy, and Electabuzz should technically be listed as GS Pikachu, GS Clefairy, and GS Electabuzz, respectively, because there is no reason to use the Crystal versions over the Odd Egg Pokemon, but since all 3 of those are found in the same locations in all 3 games (unlike Magmar), it doesn't really matter that much. The same applies to Jynx, but if we decide that Smoochum isn't worth listing separately then we'll only need one entry for Jynx.
    That's just the way I see it personally.
  20. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Just now started a Crystal playthrough (currently 6 gyms in) with the following team:
    Chikorita
    Geodude
    Elekid (farmed the egg, got it on my 4th old egg - pretty lucky)
    Heracross (HUGE availability issues that need to be properly discussed and addressed within the context of tiering; the thing can be really elusive to the point of being entirely absent in Azalea and the closest mountain areas to when you get Headbutt)
    Staryu (hits hard with Surf but no coverage so far)
    6th spot reserved for Houndour because I want to test the idea that it can supposedly be trained up to perform well in spite of being underlevelled in Kanto that I heard some time ago.

    You don't think Thunderbolt's existence changes Haunter's value? I also point out, again, the cases of Rapidash, Arcanine, Electrode and Magneton.

    We should have enough money to buy two if we want, or opt to get none at all, for example if we run a team of Lapras (natural Ice Beam), Magmar (natural Flamethrower), and misc non-95 BP using specialists and physical hitters. We needn't "assume" any number because it's context-dependent.

    No shades of grey there, really?

    We should consider and preferably test everything. A Pokemon who depends on a 95 BP move probably isn't appearing in High tier anytime soon, but their Crystal versions can at least rise above Bottom/Low. Arcanine could jump to High maybe? It's already pretty good because of the bases and the decent coverage (Bite/Return or Strength/Dig is decent enough for GSC) but Flamethrower makes it so much better for the second portion of the game. I guess the main difference between GS Arcanine and Crystal Arcanine is the availability of the Fire Stone, though.

    A Pokemon that depends on X item use will require X item use consistently. One who has no need for them at all thus results in a more efficient run. I believe we never did assume any use of the X items (including X Accuracy in the RBY tiering thread), which is probably the best way to keep it. However, the use of X items is not mutually exclusive with buying Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Ice Beam.

    I'm not saying Haunter is efficient to use; you claimed that Kadabra outclassed Haunter because the former "can do everything it can but better", so I pointed out that Kadabra and Haunter in GSC are in fact nothing alike one another. Kadabra cannot outclass Haunter just like Spearow cannot outclass Dorwzee, even if Spearow is more likely to be in play than Drowzee - they cannot be adequately compared because the roles are entirely different. Now, Kadabra does outclass Drowzee and Feraligatr does outclass Golduck. Still, the outclassed deserve being considered on their own.

    Two is likely. The competition is comparable to competition for normal one-time TMs (of which you have only a few notable ones in the whole game btw - this isn't RBY) and actual competition for a place in your team. If something is on the team and it appreciates a tutor move to perform well, I don't see why it's unlikely that it does get that move. If we have superfluous money (there's hardly any question here), we shouldn't hoard it. This is part of what I see as playing efficiently - using your resources to cut time and trouble.

    Again, compare how you'd rank Magneton or Electrode in GS and how you'd do so in Crystal. The postgame is drastically different precisely because Thunderbolt exists (so does Thunder though, but it's more expensive and less reliable in spite of being an earlier option).

    You might have noticed that in my overview I consciously avoided including such possible applications of the tutor moves as giving Muk Flamethrower or Weezing Thunderbolt. I listed viable Pokemon who are noticeably or even tremendously amplified in their intended roles when tutored these moves.

    Also, 'probably going to the best Pokemon on your team' is a superficial simplification because not every Pokemon on my team wants the Dig TM (RBY) or a postgame tutor move. How many Pokemon at once could want Thunderbolt in a non-monotype run (I hope that's one thing we can assume our run is not). Also, if you look at the latest (and seemingly complete) RBY tier list you will notice only two Pokemon in Top Tier can even learn Dig - Squirtle who does fine without it (but does even better with Dig) and Dugtrio who doesn't need it at all.

    I'd like you to try proving this empirically.

    You also have the Earthquake TM; will that go to Feraligatr as well? You mention the notion of efficiency, sometimes out of place I feel - so which team will perform more efficiently, Feraligatr with EQ and Ice Beam and Piloswine with neither, or Feraligatr without the two moves but Piloswine properly armed? I'd argue it's the latter because Feraligatr is already tearing the opposition apart with Surf, Return and Ice Punch, while Piloswine opportunity cost free options include... Powder Snow and Strength/Return? Not good for a mon with poor availability. If we want to use Piloswine, we're going to want it to function properly.

    If you develop this idea further you'll come to the conclusion that nothing besides HM slaves should be ever caught because you have a solid Totodile who doesn't like his experience shared by others to prevent him from soloing the game faster.

    Efficiency isn't as restricted as you're trying to force upon this tier list. A team of low tier mons can still be played efficiently; it includes more choices than what Pokemon to choose and what moves to teach.

    If you train a "shitty Pokemon", you will make decisions that make it more useable prior to that; for instance, catching a Swinub at higher base happiness than with a normal Poke Ball for stronger Returns and teaching it Earthquake so that it has proper application in the E4. These decisions are not without their cost (very few things function "for free" you will find).

    Underlevelled Kanto exclusives are a different subject entirely, but we do need to address each of them too. Whether they're taught any moves, including the tutored ones I brought up, may or may not matter depending on the context.

    And that's why we have a tier list - to factor the time a Pokemon spends being shitty and the extent of its shittiness in its final position on the list. This is not a reason to deprive a Pokemon of otherwise hoarded resources.

    Qwilfish has 55 base special attack, so naturally we'd want to give it something like Sludge Bomb instead (and we almost certainly will if we train Qwiflish, which is a very decent Pokemon by the way, at least come midgame or so). I see two problems with your argument: that two water-type Pokemon are somehow competing for resources when they should be competing for you opting to use one of them. Finally, Feraligatr exists only when Chikorita and Cyndaquil (viable picks with varying quality) haven't been chosen as your starter, but even if Totodile was roaming in the wild near New Bark Town, we'd be bored to play with the team of the same Pokemon so we'd use different ones. The tier list would measure their worth in comparison to one another; again, with the crucial assumption that if something is used (to measure how good it is), it has to be used.

    I don't see the point of this statement. Everything that learns Aurora Beam also happens to learn Ice Beam by TM. The difference in BP is significant (65 VS 95) especially when used without STAB (e.g. Vap or Cune). I do not follow how it is "infinitely better" but I guess that makes slightly more sense than if you were to claim it's better in a measurable way because you are yet again inviting us to compare things that aren't meant to be compared.
  21. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    @atsync

    I think that will work well, though with the last group, I think it's best they get separate analyses only if they are significantly different than in GS (also factoring in luck).

    @Lucchini
    Why don't we just go ahead and test the Pokemon in question to see if they would warrant a tier change due to the presence of the MT rather than arguing over it since I doubt either of us will change the other's opinion purely through discourse. For them to be advanced a tier, the Pokemon in question would have to be significantly better in Kanto to warrant taking time to train it in Johto and would have to become much more useful than what is currently placed in the tier that it warrants being moved. I'm wary about using this logic for Pokemon of the same types as the move because it would essentially imply most Crystal water-types are better than their GS versions, but again, lets just try it and see. Also rember that we are comparing Pokemon against each other and against arbitrarily set borderlines that have been established due to many subjective accounts of how we feel the Pokemon fare in-game, so it's very difficult to "empirically prove" something like this. All we can say is "I tried it and I don't think it was worth it", but let's go ahead and try it and see what we think. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that access to these moves makes Pokemon better. I am just hesitant to say that it would make them so much better that they would jump a tier ahead of their GS counterpart.

    For Haunter specifically, you get Psychic pretty soon after going to Kanto, so Thunderbolt would only be its main special attack on the boat and in Vermillion. I would classify unevolved Haunter as mid regardless of Tbolt access because it, as you said, does have nice typing, and it has utility in that it helps to catch other Pokemon or can incapacitate a troublesome Gym Leader Pokemon, but it's lackluster offensive move pool throughout Johto hurts it. Gengar would probably be high because it would get access to three good special attacks after evolving. But again, go ahead and try Haunter and see if thunderbolt makes that big of a difference before you get psychic.

    Obviously I'm not saying don't make the Pokemon you're using for a run through to help determine placement bad by depriving it of resources, I'm saying that ultimately, we shouldn't delude someone who uses the finished version of the guide into thinking that a mediocre Pokemon becomes excellent after getting Ice Beam. But again, let's try it and see.

    If it somehow does turn out that most Pokemon that get an MT move become significantly better than their GS counterparts, we might have to make a separate crystal tier list because it could be confusing to the reader to have 20+ duplicates on the same list. We want to make this as reader friendly as possible, so as we determine placements of GS vs C Pokemon, we can begin to decide whether to split the list or keep it as one. We don't want to saturate the High tier with a bunch of MT powered-up Mid tier Pokemon for crystal because it becomes less useful for the crystal player to read, since, if everything is High, the reader can't make an informed choice about the viability of using one of these Pokemon over the other.


    Edit: Since Crystal is the subject of such debate, I'll switch from doing a Silver run through to doing a Crystal one. I'll use whatever Lucky Egg pokemon I get and if people want to make suggestions for what Pokemon to use, I'll give them a try. I'm probably also going to test Wooper.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  22. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Smoochum (C) and Jynx should probably have different entries: Jynx has a superior crippling move (Lovely Kiss > Sweet Kiss), but Smoochum gets Confusion, which might amount to something even if it's stupidly weak (TM29, for starters, doesn't exist until Kanto).

    Haunter's relying on Thunder and not Thunderbolt for coverage in Johto. If you look at it this way, Haunter's essentially relying on an inaccurate move to kill water and flying types, and his next best attack is Shadow Ball off 50 Attack. Haunter and Gengar are way too different in this, so I'd agree with separate tiers. Haunter in Low, and Gengar in High. I doubt the idea of dragging someone around who has to use a 10PP/70% accurate move for any semblance of offense for half the game (especially when the last part of said half is challenging enough and where Haunter doesn't really do much) is in any case a healthy enough argument for Mid.

    Dig and TB/IB/FT are different: you get Dig extremely early in the game and it turns anyone (well, almost anyone...) that can learn it into an instant demi-god, but TB/IB/FT come a lot later (when you're done with more than half the game?). You can't just go "oh I'm catching this underlevelled pothead to dump thunderbolt onto" for RBY Dig because Dig comes stupidly early, when wild Pokemon are actually still strong enough to catch up quickly. I suppose a better analogy would be the 10 Red Shards in B2W2? You have enough shards to say, tutor Ice Punch onto Azumarill/Lucario, but you won't have enough for a Seed Bomb Deerling/Servine or Signal Beam Magneton/Volcarona. It's an opportunity cost, likewise. Of course, this is something that can be ignored since you can just Amulet Coin lead for most of the time and rack up a decent nest egg by Kanto.

    The Aurora Beam argument is actually legitimate imo since it allows for a Pokemon to have the coverage without needing to splurge money onto it. Suicune and Vaporeon function decently with Aurora Beam and don't really need Ice Beam, so the resources can be properly given to something else that needs it, like say Thunderbolt Magneton. Sure, it's 65 BP vs 95 BP, but by the time Ice Beam shows up you don't need the extra BP to murder Dragonites anymore, not to mention Suicune/Vaporeon will probably be spamming Surf most of the time anyway. If you're saying that 79 SpA Feraligatr is tearing up shit anyway with Surf and Ice Punch, then 90 SpA Suicune / 110 SpA Vaporeon will likewise be able to defeat foes easily with Surf and Aurora Beam. Ice Beam should instead be focused on Pokemon who require the coverage, such as Starmie, or those who actually do need it to do something, like Piloswine, unlike Pokemon who actually don't really mind having it or not, such as the aforementioned waters.

    Heracross's actually pretty available: get Headbutt and backtrack to Route 33 (or whatever route's east of Azalea and has the Slowpoke Well) and Headbutt away. Unfortunately, Lv10 is atrocious, your best attacks are Headbutt and Rock Smash for a very good while... I suppose you can dump Fury Cutter if you're really desperate, but it's still meh-ish. You're walled by ghosts forever without lolthief, but that's a problem every fighting-type face anyway, so I'll pass on that.

    Going to bring this up again since we're doing trade evolutions apparently (hence all the Gengar discussions), but Scyther and Scizor should get separate entries, even if they're in the same tier.
  23. Ender

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    Sounds reasonable. I'll add Smoochum into the list of things to do.

    Agreed. I'm playing through Crystal and decided to try out Haunter, but it's been such an exp sink with ~0 payoff, so I'm probably going to ditch it and vote for low. It's catching utility isn't even enough to make up for the fact that I've been having to rely on Lick for attacking.

    Sorry, yeah, I agree that they are different, though I'm not sure how different their tiering will be. Regardless, I think separate entries for them is reasonable.
  24. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Gengar also has that dreadful period of doing nothing useful until it evolves into Haunter and you trade-evolve it into the final form. I may be pushing it, but Mid might be as high as it can get? Think of how Magikarp is penalised in the non-Johto universe, but Gengar is still stuck with 75 BP punches and Shadow Ball for the maingame which is okay, but nothing of the Kadabra level that would compensate for that long and hard time as Gastly.

    re: Scyther and Scizor, we should probably acknowledge that Scizor will spend a good half of the game as Scyther unless you are patient enough to backtrack to Ecruteak after getting the Thief TM and spending a long time farming Magnemites. I think Scyther and Scizor will be in the same tier list but could use different entries (Scizor's also outlining the possibility of his existence in Johto) - Scizor is about as good as Scyther considering it will fail to outspeed some of the tougher mons while also losing the STAB for Wing Attack. Highish maybe?

    Also I just checked out the Chinchou ranking in the opening post and saw that it rendered what atsync described as 'above average' movepool as 'relatively poor' instead. Wouldn't it be 'relatively rich' instead considering we're dealing with the second generation?
  25. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
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    Yeah, that dead period definitely hurts it, especially early-game when you are running with only a couple Pokemon and exp is somewhat scarce. I would be completely fine with Gengar being either mid or high, as I can see an argument for both sides. It's fairly useless until it evolves, and even if you train it a lot, it probably won't hit level 25 until around Ecruteak or so. That's a good portion of the game that it's being babied.

    I'm going to bet that these two will end up in the same tier. I'm not completely sold on high as they really only have access to low bp moves. Steel Wing is Scizor's best attack at 70 bp and terrible coverage. I honestly think that Scyther's wing attack is better just because it hits more things.

    Rich meaning water+spark? I wouldn't really call that rich; it's not bad, but it's not fantastic either.

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