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GSC In-Game Tiers Revamp - Closed, I'll be starting this up again after I figure some stuff out

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Ender, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    One problem with babying Gastly is that an Exp Share does not yet exist (and probably appears about the time you happen to evolve it), so it's switching it in and out every battle, not unlike RBY!Magikarp.

    Yeah actually, Scizor is too likely to end up with Wing Attack seeing how you'd have to either farm an early Metal Coat or keep it at L<30 before boarding the ship to Kanto. You can later teach Steel Wing when you reach Rock Tunnel (I don't know why this TM is given you twice during the game, and both so late), for Scizor's best STAB. I guess that typing is a big boon.

    You should try making a list of GSC Pokemon with better coverage than Lanturn; you'll run out of mons pretty quickly. Surf before the fourth gym is a big deal, given that you get it for free and it more than lasts the entire game, L25 Spark is nearly unprecedented, Icy Wind gives mini-boltbeam coverage.
  2. x42bn6

    x42bn6

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    Water/Electric is good-enough coverage in GSC, given the number of water routes and caves. You can basically have a complete moveset at level 25 (Surf, Spark, Thunder Wave, filler).

    Sadly, Lanturn is fairly average offensively (about as good as Feraligatr in terms of Special moves, but Feraligatr gets stuff like Slash and Earthquake off way more Attack), so you might want to save Icy Wind for someone else.

    As a bonus, Chinchou and Lanturn learn both Waterfall and Whirlpool, so you can use the filler slot for one of these.
  3. TM13IceBeam

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    Yeah, Scizor's probably spending a good deal of time as Scyther, but Scizor's stats and typing are a lot different enough to warrant a different entry altogether (Scyther has higher Speed, Scizor has superior Atk/Def, and Scizor's typing is also defensively superior). It's not like say, Machoke/Machamp where Machoke is pretty much Machamp lite. I'd say the same for Steelix as well, but Steelix and Onix aren't really that far off at all...

    Lanturn's okay-ish imo, it's not exactly horrible, but it's definitely not going to be my first pick for a water-type. It's better than random shit like Seaking, that's for sure. Being a water-type that can effectively use Electric attacks is a nice niche for Lanturn. Gen II has pokemon who have to deal with bad coverage for a fair bit of the game (the aforementioned Scyther/Scizor, Heracross, Chikorita, heck even Cyndaquil, who's stuck with Ember/Headbutt/Rollout for quite a fair bit). Lanturn's actually not that bad if you think about it.
  4. Lucchini

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    Yeah, that's what I mean. If you look at it in comparison, you'll see Surf/Spark is pretty great. I mean, even Graveler is stuck with Rock Throw for the entirety of the game (though it's still to hit guys like Charizard with it). Besides cases like the Nidoroyalty, Kazam and Lapras (three pretty different cases here admittedly), few things can boast similar coverage to Lanturn in addition to having a strong STAB.

    You can say bases this, bases that, but if you have bases but no good moves that go off said bases you end up with Heracross who just isn't any good at all for a long time.

    I personally do see a huge difference between Onix and Steelix; namely, that Steelix is actually a beastly attacker, and Iron Tail is dependable enough when you need to smack something really hard. Onix's offence is so laughable, and that speed advantage means nothing when it's not OHKOing (it might need more than 2-3 turns to take something down too).

    If we assume we evolve Onix before Morty, then the difference is very noticeable in... about ~75% of your run? Steelix's checking of misc types go much further than Graveler's, too, completely blocking Koga for example - not that it's a fearsome elite but still.
  5. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Just want to point out that Chinchou/Lanturn can't learn Icy Wind (or Blizzard). It can't get BoltBeam coverage in Gold/Silver unless it gets Hidden Power Ice, although it can learn Ice Beam in Crystal from the move tutor. I don't think it needs it though. I'm a Silver player; I can't run an Ice move so I always ran Surf/Spark/Waterfall/Whirlpool on mine (Whirlpool isn't that useful for efficient runs though, so Thunder Wave might be better).
  6. Lucchini

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    Thanks for pointing that out. I remember depending on teaching Icy Wind to a water on some old run and finding out the hard way it's unlearnable.

    For future reference, the full list of waters who don't have access to Icy Wind includes Corsola, and Wooper/Remoraid/Chinchou as well as their evolutions (at least according to a quick research on Bulbapaedia).
  7. Ender

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    Right, it isn't bad coverage at all, but ideally we want both bases and coverage. Lack of an Ice-type move hurts Lanturn, as ice is generally more useful than electric (or at least personally, I've found it to be). Electric is only really useful against water, whereas ice hits grass and flying, both of which are quite common. However, that isn't to say that electric is a bad attacking type by any means, it's just that if you had to pick one, ice is probably marginally more useful. I would like to propose that lanturn go in mid for decent coverage and okay, but not stellar stats, alongside its inability to learn an ice-type attack.

    The only problem I have with this is getting a metal coat before morty requires a fairly significant time investment farming Magnemites, unless like 40% of magnemites or something have a metal coat. I agree that Steelix is a lot more useful than Onix and if it was readily available, I would definitely be on board with making separate entries, especially since it's a trade evolution, but Steelix isn't going to reasonable show up until just before Kanto, and if you get it early, you lose a lot of time going through magnemites. So it either comes earlier at a non-negligable time cost, or it comes quite late without any extra time lost. I guess we could go ahead and do two entries, but we should probably assume Steelix is coming late and only mention that it's possible, though inefficient, to get it earlier. However, it's quite useful in Kanto, regardless. I would throw Onix in low, perhaps mid, since it's useful early on, though falls off in power very quickly (much quicker than geodude) and you have to baby it through Johto before you can evolve it (or farm magnemites). Not sure about Steelix, as I haven't used it, and thus cannot give testimony to its utility. I can see how it would be quite useful in Kanto, and even more so if you evolved it early, but I'm not sure if its typing and power make up for the time you have to spend farming metal coats or otherwise babying Onix through the rest of Johto.

    Remoraid/Octillery learn Aurora Beam and Ice Beam by level up and Quagsire gets Ice Punch, so only Corsola and Chinchou really suffer from lack of an Ice attack.
  8. atsync

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    You do know that Electric hits Flying too, right?
  9. Ender

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    Yeah, I was just mentioning differences between electric and ice which is why I omitted flying.
  10. Lucchini

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    Water/electric appears to be superior coverage than water/ice though. Switching into a grass-type whom you don't OHKO with Icy Wind (so in many cases when your sp. atk. isn't sky-high and you lack the STAB for your ice move) can be dangerous, while Lanturn can switch into waters and tank all day long while electrifying everything with deadly Sparks.

    Not to mention that water and ice often cover the same types - do you really need an ice-type move when you can Surf the ground-type? Water-types are also the most common typing in the game (I heard a mention of the routes you pass by swimming but it's every route that's filled with water-type trainers really - the Starmies used by Cooltrainers come to mind).

    I guess you could cite the major battles where 3/4th of Claire's team is ice-weak and how Lance employs 3 Dragonites but only 1 Gyarados, but really water/electric is great, especially considering Pikachu and Elekid are hardly viable options in GSC, so an electric is good to have. Ampharos and the punchers (Typhlosion, Kadabra, Gengar, Nidoroyals) form a really small minority of good electric-move users.

    And yeah, it seems like on average you need to Thief 50 Magnemites to get the precious Metal Coat. Besides an attack problem, Onix also depends on TMs to deliver attacks stronger than Rock Throw. Pretty bad. Shall we assume the player is most likely not getting a Metal Coat until the ship?
  11. Ender

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    @Lucchini

    So what tier would you propose for launturn?

    And for steelix, I think we should tier it as if it comes right before kanto, but mention that it can be gotten earlier with significant time investment.
  12. TM13IceBeam

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    Ice's biggest use in this game is to kill Dragonites... in fact once you get to Kanto you realise that you don't really have much use for Ice Punch, especially when Feraligatr is probably going to just sit there and Surf everything. On that note, STAB neutral Surf beats x2 Icy Wind/Aurora Beam in power, so something like Octillery/Suicune is still going to sit there and Surf everything anyway, and Aurora Beam is really just there to murder Dragonite.

    IMO Mid is still fine for Chinchou, but I don't mind if it's moved up to High. Having to work with Spark for a long while sucks a lot though.
  13. Lucchini

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    It's hard to say when don't have anything that looks like a list yet. I think waters are generally unfairly privileged in this game, because Surf comes after Whitney, while Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower come only in Crystal for most mons and at an existent opportunity cost at that. Lanturn seems like the one of the better waters so High makes sense to me.

    That's a sound idea.

    Having extra good moves in addition to Surf is kind of a big deal because Surf only has 15 PP and in some Rocket-infested areas it helps when you can go mixed or have decent enough coverage moves.

    One of Icy Wind'd strengths is that speed fall. If you don't naturally outspeed Dragonite, then you most likely will on the second turn. Even Kadabra (that's not soloing the game - assuming a full team here) may well miss OHKOs on Lance's Dragonites with Ice Punch.

    Since I complained about having no full tier list, I'll add to atsync's precise presentation of the Bottom tier (which could probably be filled with more Kanto-exlusives) by trying my hand at a quick Top/High list that should offer plenty of space for discussion.

    Top
    Totodile
    Abra

    High
    Gyarados
    Lapras
    Geodude
    Spearow
    Nidoran M/F (they still can't Dig though =( )
    Tauros
    Vaporeon (Crystal)
    Miltank
    Sudowoodo
    Scyther
    Cyndaquil
    Tentacool
    Gastly (trade)
    Chinchou
    Poliwag (Crystal)
    Mareep
    Growlithe (Crystal)
    Staryu (Crystal)
    Psyduck
    Teddiursa (Crystal)
    Suicune (Crystal)

    Maybe some more waters? Not sure which ones are missing that should belong here.

    The High tier is potentially quite sizable, so some of these could go up to Top I'm guessing (or down to Mid, unless we want to branch into Upper and Lower Mids). What can I say, the cast is much bigger than in RBY.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
  14. TM13IceBeam

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    ...Scyther, in High? I don't see how having to deal with just Headbutt until just around the last part of TR (iirc, this game is horribly confusing) is high... it's basically a faster Heracross that still has just about the same issues.

    Realistically speaking Vaporeon doesn't exist in G/S until after Hall of Fame, so are you tiering for Crystal (where you can potentially grind it off some fisherman dude early on)?
  15. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Right, should've added that bit in.

    re: Scyther vs Heracross

    Scyther gets Wing Attack at L30 which isn't too far away from when you catch him, and Swords Dance just before the E4 (my team is usually L42-44 when I tackle that part of the game), and you can pretty much sweep every elite that doesn't have a steel/rock type on the team (though you might be unable to go before Houndoom, but Fury Cutter is still a great way of dealing with that annoying Umbreon).

    Heracross has more base attack for stronger Headbutts and Returns, but learns Earthquake via TM just before the E4 (where fliers abound and so it's not exactly the best move to have) and Megahorn sometime before Red (kinda late). I suppose L44 Reversal is worth mentioning in specific strats (against chumps, one Quick Attack will ruin your day so it's a major battle measure sort of thing and you kinda need to go first)? Endure is a TM so you don't have to waste a moveslot for it until you reach L44.

    The main aspect pointing in Scyther's favour is IMO availability. Heracross can technically be headbutted off a tree earlier not to mention any day of the week and time of day, but your chance to see one varies greatly from PT to PT. On one run you may encounter Heracross immediately and continue shaking them off for one with better IVs, on another you can spend a day near Azalea and check every tree to get nothing. Heracross's availability is a huge concern, while Scyther is much less problematic to make yours.
  16. Stellar

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    I feel you are underestimating how difficult it is to catch a Scyther in GSC. Scyther is only available three days out of the week, is relatively difficult to capture (you are limited to one Pokémon and twenty balls), and is stuck with Fury Cutter/Headbutt for fifteen levels. While using Scyther may be more practical than using Heracross, this fact does not remove the fact that it still isn't that good in the grand course of things. It generally won't be able to touch Morty, has zero options against Jasmine, and struggles against Pryce. This isn't HGSS where Scyther gets Technician Quick Attack (1), physical Pursuit (9), Wing Attack (21), and Fury Cutter (25) before level 30.

    I'd argue that it gets stuck in Mid at best, honestly.
  17. Ender

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    I'd actually argue for Scyther in Low, to be honest, though I wouldn't put up a fight if everyone else wants Mid. I can appreciate it's utility once you get it up to speed, but you catch it at level 16 iirc, and you don't get Wing Attack for another 14 levels, which then ends up being your best move for the rest of the game. Stellar's points about availability are also very valid.

    I also don't think Gastly (trade) should be in high, because it really needs to be babied until level 25, at which point it becomes awesome, but it is dead weight for a fairly significant portion of the game (assuming you catch it in Sprout Tower or nearby).

    I also think Cyndaquil could go to Top, though it does have a period where it is underpowered compared to the rest of your team (generally after Morty up until it evolves). Chickorita could be High or Top (I'm in the middle of a runthrough with it right now, so I'll comment again as I get farther; thus far, I'm pleasantly surprised with its usefulness).

    I don't think Sudowoodo should be High, since Rock-types have lost a lot of their usefulness by that point, and while Sudowoodo does have access to Rock Slide, it's murdered by any special attack ever and doesn't have the nice Ground typing and the immunities and STAB moves it grants. I would say Mid.

    I'm not sure Tauros or Miltank should be High either, but I've never used them, so I'll leave that up to people who are more familiar with them.

    Spearow shouldn't be High by any means. None of the bird Pokemon should be, as they are quite weak, have poor level-up movepools, bad TM pools, and are fairly weak.

    I'm still pushing for Lanturn for Mid, but I would be okay with High if everyone else thinks it belongs there.

    Be sure to mention only that Red Gyarados should be in High.

    Also, we need to include Lugia (S) and Ho-Oh (G) in the tiering list.

    Finally, we should keep in mind that 2nd gen games don't have the in-game powerhouses that every other generation seems to have. The special stat split combined with Game Freak's unwillingness to fix movepools to adjust means that this generation seems to be a low-point in terms of absolute power. As such, we should probably be a little more lenient when it comes to putting Pokemon in the Top tier, otherwise we're going to end up with an extremely centralized tier list that won't be very helpful.

    I'm really enjoying the discussion though, as everyone is bringing up valid points and arguing them thoughtfully, and, above all, I'm extremely happy that you guys are helping contribute to this. Keep up the good work!
  18. Stellar

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    Low sounds appropriate to me. I said "Mid at best" as a compromise, haha.
  19. Lucchini

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    High vs. Low - this seems like a discussion where my thoughts don't quite agree with the rest (I don't see much support for Scyther anywhere else).

    About the availability concerns - 3 days of the week is actually very good, compared to Lapras's one day of the week, and knowing that Scyther is caught before the third gym you can select the appropriate day for your playthrough to get one without wasting any time. Not being restricted by day/night is a big boon, too.

    Defending against Scyther (L13-14) while you do the ball tossing can vary in difficulty depending on which Pokemon you take along (probably one that can get it to critical HP easier), but at least you have 20 minutes to locate it, and 20 Great Ball equivalents to catch it. I just went ahead and did the testing, catching it on my 5th ball (Bayleef survived easily with Reflect - I believe I had 80% HP left). If it doesn't work out, you can always reset and start the contest from scratch. It's easier to catch than Abra, Red Gyarados and the legends, I would say.

    Every Pokemon has bad match-ups and I think you're conveniently leaving out that Scyther is great against Chuck, especially if it's reached L30 (which is likely enough), and how Swords Dance + Wing Attack is a combo that will sweep teams endgame and postgame as long as no steels and rocks are around (not quite sure how much damage Forretress would take from Wing Attack at max attack right now), which is a rarity before TMs like Bulk Up/Calm Mind came around later in the series.

    Also, Headbutt off 110 base attack is not bad at all - Quilava waits until L31 to get something better than Ember for instance (with 80 sp. atk...). Scyther will be OHKOing most things with no problem.
  20. Lucchini

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    I guess this boils down to how much we penalise Gastly for its period of doing nothing and how valuable we find Gengar beginning with L25. In contrast to Magikarp in other games, we are also playing the game for quite a bit longer, with 8 more gyms and Red.

    Cyndaquil doesn't learn Ember until after the Sprout Tower and is stuck with Ember until L31 before when its bases aren't doing it any favours. I'd say Totodile is just so much better as a starter that these two can't be in the same tier.

    Chikorita in Top is unbelievable to my ears. I'm training one in my own run right now (mostly because I've played with the other two starters too many times) and even High is dubious. I'm interested in hearing your defence.

    The rock-typing never quite stops being useful, and Sudowoodo beats Graveler in base attack, coming at a high enough level. Learns Rock Slide at L28, while Graveler will never get it and is stuck with Rock Throw forever.

    They basically just assault things with neutral STAB attacks and great base stats and learn some other cool things that give them coverage. It hurts a lot (not as much as Ursaring's STABs though).

    Firstly, I wouldn't compare Fearow to guys like Noctowl or Xatu. Doduo is a better comparison and Fearow beats him in availability by a fair amount of time present.

    Spearow is possibly the heaviest hitter in the earlygame, training really easily in Sprout Tower and being possibly the best Pokemon for gyms 1-5. Later on, STAB Return/Fly/Drill Peck off 90 base attacks works wonders too. A must for High IMO.

    Is there a point in that though? Maybe the analysis instead could point to alternative places and time for capturing instead?

    Should both go to High? A rhetorical question I guess.

    The biggest imbalance in GSC ingame is the poor quality of the available TMs IMHO - compared to RBY where most types (besides, like, fighters) had their STAB and coverage options covered from early to midgame (Thunderbolt after the third gym is pretty awesome).

    Anyway, whether we're lenient or not is a question I have trouble addressing, but we should apply the same standards and criteria to everything (e.g. not just Scyther but Cyndaquil as well).
  21. TM13IceBeam

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    Cyndaquil's post-Whitney movepool will most likely consist of Ember/QA or Headbutt/Rollout (don't see why not, this TM afaik isn't really in major contention aside from Graveler/Sudowoodo). Fire/Rock is decent, but considering post-Whitney also happens to be when water-types go from "decent" to "overpowered", Quilava does pale in comparison. Fire/Rock on its own isn't much, but it does make Cyndaquil pretty decent imo, and ThunderPunch after evolution helps at least. (HGSS was so epic with Fire Blast Quilava by Whitney :v)

    Scyther really isn't going anywhere in High. Sure, SD+Wing Attack wrecks shit, but SD is a very distant L42 and Scyther's issues are a lot more apparent when you first catch it, where he's pretty much useless against the following gym and may not have enough EXP in time for that one move that allows him to be useful against a particular gym. Sure, Scyther and Heracross have differences, but when it boils down to it, Scyther is basically Heracross lite (or is it the other way round? whatever, it's still roughly the same).

    edit: looked through the old thread. there're some interesting arguments, such as using surf tauros (probably to eat geodudes), but more importantly, the old list shows that red gyara is top. i'd look further but it's 2:45am now and i need to sleep so yeah >.<"
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  22. Tomy

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    Hey everyone! I'm new here, and since I've played GCS a lot of times, I think I can contribute.

    Totodile is without a doubt top. Cyndaquil is between High and Top; I would say Top as it learns ThunderPunch (when fully evolved) which mitigates its coverage problems, being able to have a decent shot versus all the Water-Types after Ecruteak, and Fire/Rock/Electric seems more than enough for ingame instances. Chikorita is high imo, the two first gyms are terrible, but is pretty useful after this, becoming a great supporter pokemon with decent offensive options. Its lack of sheer force is an issue, but High seems appropriate.

    Miltank is high imo: good stats, decent Level-up movepool, learn cool TMS like Shadow Ball or Earthquake and hasn't (bar Chuck) particularly bad match-ups.

    About the Bottom tier...I think Hoppip should be Low. Sure, it has to wait until Level 10 to learn Tackle (and has, I admit, bad offensive stats) , but being able to learn the powders and leech seed makes it a decent supporter. Of course Jumpluff isn't great, but I don't think it's as useless as Ledian.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  23. TM13IceBeam

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    ...hoppip gets charge? i hope you mean tackle :X anyway i dont see it flying out to low anytime soon. if headbutt is like your only attack for most of the game before E4 you really have a problem

    the general consensus for in-game is that offense is prioritised over support, and pokemon who can hit hard and fast are emphasised over mons who stall. sorry to say, but imo chikorita is never going to be anywhere close to guys like mareep or the water-types. of course, if razor leaf was like RBY (where it basically crits on every attack), i can see chikorita being at least a solid mid just for overpowered earlygame, maybe even high tier candidate, but unfortunately the nerf to crits mean that chikorita is imo mid at best...
  24. Tomy

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    Yeah, i meant Tackle. Most of my games are French, and Charge = Tackle. Sorry for the mistake x) but yeah, Hoppip isn't great but I think Bottom is a bit too much, Low is more appropriate. It has a (small) niche ingame.

    Chikorita has cool mash-ups vs some important guys like Chuck. After the 2 first gyms, bar Morty, it performs decently. Of course it's the worst starter, but it should be at the very least a very solid Mid. :)
  25. Ender

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    Let's start throwing Pokemon in tiers so that we have an objective measure to judge in-game viability so that we can begin to standardize how we're ranking them. This obviously won't be final, but it'll help everyone start to see where Pokemon fall and thus be able to more confidently say where a Pokemon should be. Right now, I think we all have different internal definitions of what these tiers are and where the cutoffs should be, but if we start ranking Pokemon, then it'll be easier to rank others. We're still judging Pokemon on their own merits, but ultimately, the standard we're judging them by is dictated by where other Pokemon are ranked since arbitrarily saying something is "Top" without defining a usable comparison is useless. Once we have a tiering system going, we can move Pokemon up or down based on how our discourse goes and then once everything is ranked, we'll go through tiers individually to see if every Pokemon belongs there, since it'll be easier to see viability similarities between Pokemon within a group. Everyone is bringing up good points which more or less are on the same page, but the biggest disagreement we all seem to be having is how to define tiers and cutoffs, so if we do this first, it'll be easier to modify that later on. I'm just going to throw a lot of Pokemon on this list and people who post ahead of me should start adding more. Don't worry about being "wrong" at this point, we just want to create a measurable standard to judge Pokemon that haven't been discussed. These all have a high probability of changing.

    Also, we won't be ranking Pokemon within tiers; we'll be listing them alphabetically. If it becomes necessary to differentiate, we can always add another tier (it might be necessary to add a tier between High and Mid or Mid and Top). Don't worry about listing them alphabetically right now, though. When we have a good list going, I'll start updating the OP.

    To change something, just make a motion to change it and give an explanation as to why.

    Top:
    Abra
    Totodile
    Lugia (S)
    Ho-Oh (G)
    Suicune (C)
    Magmar (GS)

    High:
    Red Gyarados
    Geodude
    Cyndaquil
    Miltank
    Vaporeon (C)
    Tauros (can it learn Shadow Ball?)
    Lapras
    Mareep (GS)
    Nidoran M
    Nidoran F

    Mid:
    Spearow
    Sudowoodo
    Chinchou
    Gastly (Trade)
    Psyduck
    Tentacool
    Poliwag
    Growlithe (C)
    Teddiursa (C)
    Chickorita
    Onix (Trade)
    Rattata
    Skarmory
    Jynx

    Low:
    Onix (No Trade)
    Scyther
    Pidgey
    Hoothoot
    Sentret
    Drowzee
    Swinub
    Dratini
    Pinsir
    Gastly (No Trade)

    Bottom:
    Delibird
    Ditto
    Hoppip
    Ledyba
    Misdreavus
    Murkrow
    Shuckle
    Slugma
    Smeargle
    Togepi
    Unown
    Spinarak
    Caterpie
    Weedle
    Gligar
    Sneasel

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