Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

[Bedschibaer]

I don't think I have ever seen a Miltank beating a standard Zapdos 1on1. You'd need ridiculous hax with full paras and crits to actually take it down. Miltank fails to even 4hko Zapdos, so not even two consecutive crits actually kill it. Also just heal belling after you got parad by a thunder won't really work out either since you are most likely in ko range after the thunder hit with reduced speed and even if you get off the heal bell you'd have to win a speed tie to heal up again, while Zapdos can comfortably rest away everything miltank can do to it. Miltank can't even set up potential curses (which nobody runs though) on zapdos because it's so vulnerable to thunders. So unless you manage to waste all of the zapdos' thunder pp or want to gamble on all thunders missing you are not realistically beating it.

 

[Isa]

rather than theorymonning i suggest actually starting to play the meta again.

 

[Borat]

lol if you're not switching miltank out vs zapdos you've probably already lost. being in a speed tie is even worse than being slower. that means you have a chance of dying to a non-crit even when literally using milk drink EVERY TURN. it's like the speed ties in +6 de lax mirrors are. even if you rest loop, you risk dying should you go first at an inopportune time. it's probably worse than that.

granted, if you get lucky, i might siwtch out a zapdos if i've used up like 10 thunders trying to kill a miltank. there's no miltank winning in that scenario though.

blissey to c is absurd. blissey is a high b. easily. and i hate blissey.

edit: so i went back and looked at what you said. there's a lot of falsely drawn conclusions. vaporeon is the one thing blissey DOESN'T beat. even with light screen. (although light screen+growl will do the trick, but thats retarded). a crit surf + regular surf will kill a blissey. so fish for the first hit crit, but you don't second time surf unless you get it. you just growth and let her heal. alternatively, you can just pp waste with growth and rest.

all that needs to happen in zap vs miltank is... miltank going first, then miltank going second. that's it. if that happens, she's dead. forget the paras and the crits and the fps. you never try to stay in more than 1 turn with a fully healthy miltank vs zapdos, because a para thunder means she's useless vs snorlax. and that's the whole reason you run miltank. he also gets raped by ttar/nidoking at that point too.

blissey doesn't do shit, but most things don't do shit to blissey either. sure you can switch anything in against blissey, but nothing is forcing the blissey player to keep her in either. unlike miltank, blissey doesn't need to softboiled after absorbing a hit, where you can use that to gain a turn advantage. blissey can take like 5 thunders before being "forced" to heal.

think about all the stuff that actually has to switch out against blissey? flamethrower, toxic, ice beam, growl. you can screen too, but unless you have a marowak/charizard it's probably not too useful.

and how's kingdra your example of mixed attacker? nidoking, ttar, rhydon, dragonite. those are the pokemon you're looking for. and yes miltank is better against those. kingdra? what in the world...

mixed sweepers in general are two things: physical attackers that use fb/thunder. or special attackers that use explosion. under this criteria, i'd classify gengar and egg as mixed sweepers.

Conflict: most good pokemon are one dimensional. miltank? starmie? skarmory?

edit2: and when push comes to shove, i can totally picture a kingdra beating miltank with hydro pump + dragon breath, so that was actually a terrible example.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

No one even uses dragonbreath on Kingdra, at least from my experiences, they usually use double edge, and I see surf over hydro pump all the time. I get what you're saying, but Blissey is High B? Doubt it, probably a very low B or a very high C. It sponges special hits (even Zapdos's Thunder will only 7 or 8 hit, assuming no Softboiled) and weaker physical hits, but the Cursaring at +2 could potentially one hit (assuming no spikes) Blissey, and we'll do the same thing with Miltank.
+2 Ursaring Return vs. Blissey: 676-795 (94.8 - 111.5%) -- 69.2% chance to OHKO.
+2 Ursaring Return vs. Miltank: 256-301 (65.1 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Special hits are much better on Blissey than Miltank though, as shown. Alakazam has the best special attack found outside of Ubers so Ima gonna use him, but Zapdos's thunder does more, but who really cares?

Alakazam Psychic vs. Blissey: 97-115 (13.6 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Alakazam Psychic vs. Miltank: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah, Blissey just is isn't that good, very overrated. Spikes too, as there are only one layer. If there were no spikes, I guarantee you Cloyster and Forretress would be UU, no questions.

 

[Isa]

who uses ursaring who uses alakazam
why is the ursaring at +2

stop theorymonning

 

[Borat]

that's the thing though, this isn't even theorymon. it's just random numbers with no meaning behind it. i'm unable to follow your train of reasoning. miltank is better vs physical attacks. ok. blissey is better vs special attacks. again. ok. this isn't anything new or groundbreaking. the rankings already reflect these factors... which is why miltank is slightly higher.

the fact that zapdos thunder does more than zam... who cares? everybody. who cares about zam psychic?

and then the random shot at spikes? what the hell? how are spikes overrated? i bet miltank will be uu without heal bell and milk drink. i bet if zapdos could learn growth it'd use it. these scenarios are very absurd, to say the least.

and the ursaring in your example kills the miltank too.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Spikes are only one layer, and they are ineffective against Zapdos, and any other flying type. Most of the pokemon that have them aren't too fast and can easily be oneshotted (with Qwilfish being the fastest one, but who cares about that?). There are quite a couple of rapid spinners. They are Blastoise, Cloyster, Delibird, Donphan, Forretress, Golem, the three Hitmons, Kabutops, Sandslash, Starmie, and Tentacruel. Let's face it, there are five spike setters, and thirteen rapid spinners, two of them being actual spike users. It outnumbers spikers 2.6:1 (2.2 if you exclude the spike setters). Also, I know the Ursaring kills the Miltank. Ursaring is as powerful as all hell. Ursaring boasts the second highest base attack stat outside of Ubers, only beaten by Dragonite and T-tar, (but who even uses Dragonite, and I rarely see T-tar, but maybe just because I haven't played a lot of GSC OU in a while) and the Curse set makes it one of the most powerful pokes in the game. Oh, and I was just using Cursaring and Zam as an example, not an actual scenario. I know I kinda sound like a nub, but I just want to make a tiny impact on the metagame, no matter how small.

 

[Jorgen]

I don't think I have ever seen a Miltank beating a standard Zapdos 1on1.

I have. Generally it's Curse Miltank, but on a few occasions it's been the Growler.

Then again I've also seen a CurseSkarm beat a Zapdos with plenty of Thunder PP in a 1-v-1 endgame. So yeah, precious little is 0% in Pokemon.

Let's face it, there are five spike setters, and thirteen rapid spinners

Ursaring boasts the second highest base attack stat outside of Ubers, only beaten by Dragonite and T-tar, (but who even uses Dragonite, and I rarely see T-tar

lol











sorry, it's mean to just leave "lol" as a response. but seriously dude, back up, calm down, and learn the basics.

 

[Kel9901]

Spikes are only one layer, and they are ineffective against Zapdos, and any other flying type. Most of the pokemon that have them aren't too fast and can easily be oneshotted (with Qwilfish being the fastest one, but who cares about that?). There are quite a couple of rapid spinners. They are Blastoise, Cloyster, Delibird, Donphan, Forretress, Golem, the three Hitmons, Kabutops, Sandslash, Starmie, and Tentacruel. Let's face it, there are five spike setters, and thirteen rapid spinners, two of them being actual spike users. It outnumbers spikers 2.6:1 (2.2 if you exclude the spike setters).

It's kinda ironic that you dismiss Qwilfish for being bad, but not >1/2 of those spinners

 

[Borat]

I know I kinda sound like a nub, but I just want to make a tiny impact on the metagame, no matter how small.

i appreciate the effort, but for the most part gsc is probably the most set in stone of all gens. i think even rby has far more potential for "undiscovered" strategies. i do also think coming in and making wild claims with baseless facts (but facts i suppose) are not the appropriate way of doing it. zam has highest spc attack, ursa has highest attack, neither of those are relevant points. if you want a hard hitting physical attacker, use heracross, rhydon, machamp, marowak, snorlax. if you want a hard hitting spc attacker, it's electrics and thunder, the odd charizard/moltres/houndoom (esp with sunny day), and growtheons.

and disregarding the most popular pokemon in the metagame with a simple "besides these" makes absolutely no sense on any grounds. arguments against cloyster on the premise of "without spikes" is equally strange. and why is qwilfish even in this thread at all... or kabutops.. or any of the three hitmons. or delibird. what in the actual fuck. the only reason to even bring up these pokemon is to follow it with a "sucks".

there are 3 spinners and 2 spikers, one of which needs to sacrifice explosion to do. it only matters what exists in the metagame, not so much what exists in pokemon altogether. there aren't any more hidden gems in gsc.

and ursaring kills the miltank in your example because it's +2, not because it's a "powerful" pokemon. why the hell is it +2? that means it was +3 before the growl. and

the Curse set makes it one of the most powerful pokes in the game.

it's not even the most powerful normal curser. it's not even the second. or third. it's MAYBE the 4th best cursing normal... arguably. miltank is probably better honestly. i don't even know because if it's the 4th best of anything, it means it's not very good.

 

[Jorgen]

Oh I jumbled the tiers around because I figured why not, this thread is getting visibility and could use some actual discussion (and it dealt with some features I wasn't totally comfortable with, notably Jolteon's former placement). Tell me that A rank is now too all-inclusive, that all the BP-specific mons in B tier is too generous, and that most of the C rank Pokemon have no business being mentioned when Pokemon X didn't make the cut.

 

[Borat]

what does piloswine do? be neutral to zapdos? freeze growltanks?

piloswine and omastar are definitely cutting it close. electabuzz too. i don't think they're good enough to be even "situational" in ou.

 

[Ortheore]

The first thing that stood out to me was Zard and Clef in B, given the amount of support they'd need to actually be effective- Clef needs to basically take 0 damage in order to setup properly. Zard still needs bulky stuff weakened, faster stuff para'd and then needs to find an opportunity

 

[Jorgen]

what does piloswine do? be neutral to zapdos? freeze growltanks?

piloswine and omastar are definitely cutting it close. electabuzz too. i don't think they're good enough to be even "situational" in ou.

Pilo's not bad actually. Yes and yes to the things it does; those are definite strengths. I could list other ways it works, but I just know from being on the other end of it that many typical offensive teams can struggle quite a bit to deal with it. Example: Ttar/Nido/Cloyster/Exeggutor/Zapdos/Snorlax. Toxic the Cloy, it gets worn down (as it is wont to), and then what are you switching into it when it comes barreling in on Zapdos all the time?

I won't disagree on Omastar and Buzz being pretty bad, though. I included them mostly for completeness in terms of what kooky things I'd seen other respectable players endorse before, but they were toward the bottom of my barrel.

 

[Royal Flush]

Piloswine actually has a decent niche against offense. EQ/IB/Rest/Toxic is the set I used to try. You can switch against electrics forever while being able to deal decent damage to common stuff like egg/lix/ttar/gengar. Toxic is most likely a filler but it's cool against Cloyster and to save some PPs. Plenty of opportunities to fish for freezes is actually legit lol. Vaporeon hard walls it though.

 

[Borat]

well i guess electrics might be at the point where JUST being good against one pokemon is meaningful. that one pokemon being something other than snorlax.

in any case, the rest of the list looks good. the reason why i like this list a lot more than the PO one is how non-specific it is. it's much more difficult to argue against "blissey is good" vs "blissey is better than misdreavus", which is a lot more specific. and a lot more wrong. certain things are better left to generalization.

 

[Wish9]

I'd like to nominate Typhlosion for C Rank at the very least (possible B). It has amazing coverage within Fire Blast, TPunch, and Earthquake. Yes, it is walled by Blissey, but it can sometimes work if you have accurate predictions.

 

[Borat]

i think this is relevant to typhlosion:

i don't even know because if it's the 4th best at anything, it means it's not very good.

except in typhlosion's case it's like the 4th best fire pokemon... if that. entei gets solarbeam.

and fire pokemon aren't very good.

EDIT: speaking of which, sandslash belongs in c easily. that's some shit i'd actually use. i'm fairly certain i've beaten everyone at least once with him.

 

[Isa]

i feel like the new list is quite uninformative. yeah the mons in A and S are certainly the ones you'd expect to see most of the time, but im not a fan of listing mons like cloyster, skarm and egg all in the same tier as marowak, starmie and umbreon, despite quite a big difference in utility. at least one subrank would be healthy.

 

[Xeze]

EDIT: speaking of which, sandslash belongs in c easily. that's some shit i'd actually use. i'm fairly certain i've beaten everyone at least once with him.

+2 HP Bug OHKOs Eggy, plus Sandslash outspeeds it. Yeah that's quite good actually.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I would actually use Sandslash, but its UU rank deterred me from it. Sandslash for C, or if it's not contestable, bring back D rank.

 

[Borat]

Sandslash is at the upper echelons of c, if anyone wants to get into the nitty gritty. it occupies a niche no other ground can claim, and it's quite a good one too. it outspeeds egg/ttar/champ and ties vap, with a chance of surviving a 2 shot from zapdos. can't growl it down either.

edit: he's so good i capitalized the S.

 

[M Dragon]

About Bliss vs Miltank:
Blissey has 2 things that make it p different than Miltank: Light Screen and a godly special bulk, which usually means an easier Heal Bell (especially with Electrics being everywhere). Blissey can be a really good supporter.

About Sandslash:
Sandslash can be p good vs typical explosion teams, and as an electric lure. Being faster than egg and killing it with a +2 HP bug is a big help as well

(but who even uses Dragonite, and I rarely see T-tar)

Dragonite is not uncommon, and T-Tar is quite common lol

 

[Jorgen]

i feel like the new list is quite uninformative. yeah the mons in A and S are certainly the ones you'd expect to see most of the time, but im not a fan of listing mons like cloyster, skarm and egg all in the same tier as marowak, starmie and umbreon, despite quite a big difference in utility. at least one subrank would be healthy.

Hm yeah I guess that is a problem, it's little more than just OU/BL tiers at this point. The lines are pretty smudgey within ranks though; I never felt super comfortable with drawing a line between, say, Misdreavus and Starmie, as opposed to the existing line between Umbreon and Heracross. And I've never felt more comfortable with the line between B and C than I do now. If you all want to come to a consensus on where further subdivisions belong, be my guest, but I feel like a lot of that comes down to personal preference (especially for defensive mons like Skarm, Cune, and Starmie, which new-age players like myself have a definite distaste for).

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I'm a little with Isa on that myself. The lines/rankings are a little too blurred, despite how set in stone the tier is. I think adding + to the three ranks (or at least A) would be a good idea, as long as everyone is selective on what goes in them (in other words, don't let them get too big). Although, if you got a decent amount of guys on the same ground, then I see where the issues arise in properly ranking them...