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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jorgen, Mar 26, 2014.
such rhydon weaknesses
Huh? I'm not clear on what you're saying.
T-tar doesn't do anything most of the time. He needs some kind of luckily perfect moveset to beat whatever team he's facing. In terms of walling he is basically the same as Rhydon, just far less threatening than Rhydon offensively.
Rhydon is a giant problem for most teams cause exeggutor likes to explode, and waters tend to get exploded on.
And in the most important matchup of all, Rhydon is far superior at killing Snorlax.
Not at all, Tyranitar is much better than Rhydon at nearly everything.
T-tar has a lot of viable sets that Rhydon cannot do, like Pursuitting ghosts or egg, a mixed set thar is very dangerous, especially if you lure bulky waters, a set with Screech is very good at forcing switches.
Curse rhydon and cursetar are the only comparable sets, and cursetar is better, and has a better typing. Also Rhydon auto loses vs any water attack, something very common, while Machamp is the only fighting thing that will always beat Ttar (it can beat DPunchers), and while Rhydon is inmune to electric attacks, it has a low special defense and it will fall to electrics hidden power (hp ice does a lot, close to a 2hko i think)
I can only think about 1 thing Rhydon can do better that t-tar cannot, and it is paralyzing things like Starm with Zap Cannon (but then that means no Roar).
Rhydon was very good in a non hidden power electric legends metagame, because it was an amazing electric counter, but in this metagame it is just a gimmick.
Also, t-tar's main role is a lot of the times pursuitting, and it is very good at that
Pursuit is a one of a kind move and there aren't really many abusers for it, Ttar is by far the best. In a meta where monolax, mono-machamp etc are a thing pursuit is an incredibly useful move. And others already stated how good Gengar is, and unless it runs dpunch or hypnosis it will have a hard time not dying to Ttar.
The only other viable pursuit user is Umbreon which has exactly 0 offensive presence. (i guess electabuzz could use it, since it gets it by event, but that thing is far from standard already. And murkrow, if it wasn't such a terrible poke overall)
Edit: i completely forgot about houndoom, which is good but not reliable at all.
Ttar has alot more options than Rhydon, for the curse roar set i gotta agree Rhydon is better in one aspect, simply because of the sheer damage output. and yea, rhydon kills snorlax alot easier because surf snorlax is basically nonexistant in gsc. But Ttar can play alot more roles, support wise and offensive wise, that makes it far superior in viability.
I think both have their own pros to the extent that you can't say ttar > rhydon everytime. It's mostly that pursuitting is incredibly useful even if the focal point of your team doesn't consist on pursuitting stuff. Stall teams would usually rather ttar most of the times for spinblocker removal purposes and many offensive teams benefit from Ghost/Exeggutor being potentially removed (e.g. monolax/vap respecively). Ttar also deals with Zapdos better most of the times. But Rhydon just does have a lot of power while ttar often struggles to pack a punch. If you ttar, you'd usually want to be pursuitting and phazing, and rock slide is pretty much a staple, which leaves little room for a mixed set. With spikes down, Rhydon can be really awkward to deal with since EQ hits everything for loads of damage. Rhydon can actually force plays against Curselax rather than just coming in to phaze it out like ttar usually does.
HP Ice generally 3 shots Rhydon, but it's close, so with spikes it's possible. Still, we're talking about comparable damage that Ttar takes from Thunders. Neither of them are reliable switch ins against Electrics, and Rhydon is way better at killing them since he has the STAB EQ. Advantage Rhydon.
Pursuit is really not that good. Better in theory than in practice. First of all, Pursuit sets on TTar are inherently thin movesets for doing things outside of Pursuiting. Mixed attacker with Pursuit? Not gonna cover enough. Curse + Roar with Pursuit? One non-pursuit attack. This is the problem with theorycrafting for Ttar. You can make it sound like he has 6 moves (and wouldn't that be nice). Pursuiting is also not that reliable. You aren't guaranteeing Ghost kills with pursuit. Nor Egg kills. If things break your way, maybe, but there are responses to Pursuit. It's not full-proof.
Only 1 thing Rhydon does better? How about STAB EQ. 3 shot Snorlax without needing Dpunch luck. 1 shot Gengar. Nearly 1 shot Nidoking, Raikou. Rhydon hits so hard that it forces a defensive switch. You have to go to your water, Egg, Skarm. Arguably Egg is an offensive switch. In this sense yes, Ttar is better vs Egg than Rhydon. Point for Ttar. However, Ttar lets MORE offensive threats in like Nidoking, Machamp, Marowak, Rhydon. You can't send Cloyster forever.
Crystal's last point is crucial. With some chip damage, a paralysis, any small leverage I can just opt to fight Curselax with Rhydon. Ttar has to phaze, and with his plethora of weaknesses, he's probably bringing in something he wants to run from. Roaring on TTar makes so little sense honestly, he's the poster child pokemon that nothing wants to switch in against, but nothing minds being active against him if they're getting in for free. So why roar things in for free?
Ttar's main selling point to me is not pursuit, but confident explosion catching. That's very valuable. But Rhydon is a constant threat to suddenly win games, something Ttar pretty much never is.
Ofc, Rhydon has its advantages over T-tar.
My point was that t-tar can do a lot more things than Rhydon (pursuit being huge), while Rhydon only has 1 thing I can think about that t-tar cannot do, which is zap cannon to para things like Starm.
Rhydon has STAB EQ, and with para support and some bulky water lures it can be a big threat, but it's not nearly as good now as before, when HP legends were banned, and it was a great switching vs them.
T-tar can be a support mon pursuitting key threats, or a dangerous mixed attacker (especially when Suicune is removed), and even with a curse set, it can act as an offensive sweeper with a set similar than rhydon's, or a defensive curser with rest + roar, working very well with skarm in defensive teams (they conver most curselax, BD LK lax, etc, and also things like Egg that use psychic + grass/fire coverage).
Rhydon is a sweeper that can be very good, but that requires some big team support to work, and that is why tier B is fine for Rhydon (These Pokemon fulfill a given offensive/defensive/support niche. They have some flaws that prevent them from being as consistent as the higher-ranked Pokemon, but are nonetheless powerful and should be taken into account when building a team.)
Tyranitar can be a good supporter to things like Vappy (crunch+pursuit killing egg) or mono normal / FB lax / mono cc machamp (pursuiting ghosts), it can also be a good curser both offensively and defensively (as I said it's very good with skarm), it can force switches with screech (VIL loved this), it can threaten with a mixed set... and it can be a key part of the team either supporting it or being an offensive threat or a big wall vs a lot of things. This is why it is tier A (These Pokemon are the cream of the crop. They aren't horribly centralizing, but they each fulfill a vital role for their team in a way no other Pokemon can, and are versatile enough to fit onto just about any team.)
By "only one thing" Rhydon does better i meant the curse set, which is as a whole better than Ttars for obvious reasons.
Ttar is better because it has more options than rhydon (curse, eq, rock slide, mystery move). As said it can play offensive and defensive roles, it can support teams or actually do things itself, and that is what makes it good in the viability rankings - versatility.
What i like especially is the fact that even if you come into EQ curselax variant, it's not really too bad, while ttar is phaze it and get away of this asap.
IMO the point of ttar is usually pursuit+firelax check in one. That's where phazing comes in. Plus, general misdreavus/whatever phazing purposes if you will. Rhydon's just as good at this of course.
As for the Zapdos matchup, gotta disagree. Sure Rhydon forces Zapdos to use its (by far) least powerful move which is good for all the double switching plays, send snorlax into hp, and similar stuff, but ttar does a decent job as a second look to Zapdos unlike Rhydon. Plus there's always the option that you already have another hp oriented second look to zapdos, even if not solid at all (i.e egg). You know, when I'm full health zapdos vs full health ttar all I think is ok should siwtch zap back. On the other hand Zapdos vs Rhydon matchup is always so tricky for both. And those annoying thunder misses are always to take into accound in low hp scenarios.
Sure, I'll give you the edge against Raikou for obvious reasons, despite I think most people tend to use Hp water raikou more these days. Either that or everytime I use Rhydon myself, if I do come up against raikou, it's hp water. Ironically, EQ is pretty much a guaranteed ko vs full raikou into spikes, but I doubt this really matters.
Rhydon wears down Vap faster (38-45% vs. 29-35%) and doesn't need to go mix to poke Suicune. Last-Poke CurseLax beats non-Rest Ttar, while Rhydon has a better chance (and Rest Ttar has other problems) - there's also the occasional Thunder CurseLax, which Rhydon walls impeccably. The clean +1 OHKO on Raikou can occasionally matter (Raikou threatens to Roar a sweeping CurseTar, forcing Tar to counter-Roar and potentially eat Thunder for no damage; Rhydon can safely EQ) but more importantly Rhydon OHKOs unboosted with Spikes or chip damage (HP Water is a possibility, but it has its own problems - and there's some Raikou that don't run HP at all). Rhydon's Ground-type can be used to play mindgames with Electrics if you're carrying something else that doesn't want to be Thundered (Snorlax, your own Raikou) whereas Ttar can't discourage Thunder.
All that said, Tyranitar is still, overall, better; the capability to go mix and the ability to use Pursuit (effectively; Rhydon does technically get it) are both huge, and Pursuit in particular allows Tyranitar to do work despite its walls. It fits the A rank pretty well, although technically its "vital roles" (FireLax counter, Pursuiter) are also fulfilled by Umbreon (then again, Cloyster's A and its "vital role" of spike/spin/boom is also fulfilled by Forretress, so whatever; Pokemon isn't that cut-and-dried).
No. Unless it has Toxic. Standard CurseSkarm is completely useless against Rhydon (or, for that matter, Curse Tyranitar).
Ttar is a tier above Rhydon because it's a lot more splashable. This is because Ttar has more favorable matchups against key Pokemon. Both can function as checks to Snorlax and, to some extent, Electrics. However, Ttar also functions as an answer to Exeggutor and Gengar, two huge nuisances that Rhydon doesn't cover very well at all. What's more, Ttar not only checks these nuisances, it can flat-out kill them with Pursuit.
I won't deny that there's a lot of situations where I'd prefer Rhydon over the lump that Ttar can be (and Rhydon is certainly more than "just a gimmick"). However, Ttar covers more while still being able to get strategic kills, albeit not outright muscle-kills the way Rhydon gets them. This makes it the safer, more logical option for more teams.
One fun thing about Rhydon, though, is it kinda-sorta acts as a Ttar check if your team is light on answers to it. So if you ever need an answer to both Ttar and Snorlax that actually resists Normal (not that uncommon a place to be when teambuilding, in my experience), Rhydon isn't a bad place to look.
Oh, and as far as the Ttar versatility discussion goes: ehhhhhh. It's not versatile in the sense that it has a ton of great options, but rather in the sense that each "other option" is as unreliable as the last. The mixed set has major 4mss. CurseTar is a weenie. Stuff like Screech and AP are gimmicks. The most reliable thing it can do is check Snorlax, particularly FireLax (hence Roar being standard), leaving only so many moveslots for offense or offensive support (hence Pursuit, a good way to get kills without needing a ton of coverage, also being standard).
don and tar were even when hp legends were banned, so rhydon losing his edge on zapdos/raikou would bring him down a tier. This is the simple way of looking at it. If you want to break down all their pros and cons I'm still sure you'd see that tyranitar is better.
Rhydon is no poor mans tyranitar though, he serves his own purposes and is still the undisbuted hardest hitting physical poke of this gen. Tyranitar can only wish he had stabbed earthquake.
Marowak hits harder. Machamp and his crits/widely SE STAB could be considered harder-hitting too. Heracross' STAB type sucks, but when neutral it hits harder than Rhydon's EQ (it can even 3HKO Suicune sometimes). Snorlax DE hits harder than Rhydon EQ.
Rhydon hits hard, but it's not the undisputed hardest hitter or anything. It's checking Snorlax on top of all that which makes Rhydon so cool.
Rhydon has the second-highest floor damage of all pure physicals with setup moves, that being its 23-27% to Skarmory.
(Highest is Machamp with Double-Edge and HP Ghost, with 27-32% to... Weezing, apparently. The more common Rock Slide/HP Bug variant floors at 17-20%, also to Weezing, though if we're staying with OUs it's Nidoking with 21-25%. So Rhydon does have the highest among sets actually in use.)
EDIT: There's also RSlide/DPunch Marowak with 26-31% to Exeggutor, if you ignore accuracy. But I wouldn't advise ignoring DynamicMiss's accuracy. Roar is also cool and neither Machamp nor Marowak gets it.
The best I can put it is Rhydon is like some sort of shitty middle ground between T-Tar, Marowak, Steelix. It has a unique combination of advantages that give it a viable niche but overall it just seems to have the least upside. It has the raw power to be an offensive powerhouse but it isn't the "sweeping" threat Marowak (Machamp) is because its type weaknesses prevent it from tanking even one hit from Bulky Water's Surf. The whole Snorlax thing is quite considerable but it's more of an offensively-slanted threat that just falls a little short, thanks to its own glass jaw. I can get that lone bit of defensive utility from plenty other sources.
T-Tar is not really similar to Rhydon, offensively it's more like Nidoking with its high versatility but mediocre power, but they're in the same boat. They're both offensively-slanted mons that fall short of being truly dangerous, with the single good defensive purpose of cockblocking Fire Blast Curselax. What makes T-Tar a little better is that it's just generally more survivable, and occasionally you get some cheesy kills with Pursuit trapping.
lol how did i forget marowak...
machamp and hera have the power but the rock/ground double stab that is always at least dealing neutral damage is fiendish.
Uh magic what the hell are you talking about?
He's looking at the worst best damage a Pokemon can possibly do. In other words, if you could magically always pick the best move for literally any Pokemon that could ever switch into your Machamp/Marowak/whatever, what is the least damage you could do? This is actually a pretty neat objective measure of the power of a pure attacker (definitely a stronger indicator of an offensive Pokemon than max damage) and could be useful for optimizing a 4mss mixed attacker like Tyranitar.
EDIT: Speaking of optimizing mixed Ttar, DPunch/Rock Slide/Crunch/Tbolt is its maxmin-optimal set, with Nidoqueen as the worst damage (24%-29%).
Not every Skarm has curse, and not every Rhydon has roar.
A more mathematical version of this:
One of the best numerical measures of coverage is floor damage - if for any opposing Pokemon, you pick the move that does the most damage to that Pokemon, what is the LEAST amount of damage you could end up doing?
Rhydon has a high floor damage (as I said, the second-highest of a pure Curser), because it hits everything in the game for at least neutral 75 BP STAB. Low floor damage implies having hard walls; for instance, mono-Normal CurseKangaskhan has a floor damage of 0% (to Gengar and Misdreavus), and mono-Rock Tyranitar has a floor damage of 4-5% (to Steelix).
Sorry for the length I was bored and this floor damage concept interested me so I looked into it more....to simplify skip to bold for facts.
Ok I get it now, I was confused when you said double-edge machamp on weezing when earthquake seems a more common move in that situation.
Were you assuming 4 moves machamp with cross chop, hp ghost, rock slide, and double-edge? Or by 'set-up moves' did you imply curse as mandatory? I'd think that the highest floor damage set on machamp would be cross chop/earthquake/rock slide/ with hidden power bug or fire blast in the last slot. Just guessing but I'd think gligar or shuckle, lol, would take the least damage from this. Since nobody uses those they could be excluded and treated as outliers. With fireblast I'd think starmie takes less damage, with hp bug I'd think heracross does. Ok now I see why you kept double-edge....how about cross chop, earthquake, double-edge, curse machamp? That seems like his best least damage curse set.
It might be worth calculating moves based on their expected damage and not their power. For example, if I was trying to find rhydon's floor damage I'd calculate rock slide's expected damage, (power)(stab)(accuracy)(ch chance): (75)(1.5)(0.9)(0.0625). Given that rhydon's lowest damage outputs are from rock slide, calculating expected damage is sort of important.
Now given machamps worst damage output with cross chop, eq, de, curse set will be either double-edge on something, I'll go with eggy (given nothing resists both cross chop and double-edge), or cross chop on forretress:
forry: ((((40*1.125) + 2) * 358 * 150 / 50 / 378) + 2) * 236 / 255)*0.8 = 100.35 = 28.43%
eggy: ((((40 * 1.0625) + 2) * 358 * 120 / 50 / 268) + 2) * 236 / 255) = 133.89 = 34.07%
for the hell of it I'll check rhydons rock slide on skarmory and eggy:
skarm: ((((40 * 1.0625) + 2) * 358 * 112.5 / 50 / 378) + 2) * 236 / 255)*0.9 = 80.66 = 24.22%
eggy: ((((40 * 1.0625) + 2) * 358 * 120 / 50 / 268) + 2) * 236 / 255)*0.9 = 113.07 = 28.77%
So yea machamp wins the floor damage debate given rhydon is using 2 moves. What about if rhydon packs the thunder? Then rhydon wins. It's also worth noting that marowaks rock slide does less damage to skarm than rhydons rock slide. Assuming 1 curse/swords dance, and 3 moves, rhydon has better floor damage than both marowak and machamp, however, snorlax is the strongest with earthquake, fireblast, and double-edge. Assuming any amount of attacks, marowak wins with bug and fire blast. Assuming 2 attacks, rhydon has the highest of any. I'm sure there is a mon I'm forgetting that resists machamps double-edge better than eggy, too lazy to look into that though and if there is one he's probabaly not worth noting.
conclusion: curse, earthquake, double-edge, fireblast snorlax wins.
Minimum damage there is vs. Slowbro with Double-Edge. Weezing takes more from Double-Edge than Slowbro does. Ergo, HP Ghost gives a higher floor. Same deal with just OUs - Eggy takes less damage from Double-Edge than Nidoking does.
Also, I said "pure Curser" ie all attacks are boostable by Curse. That way you're comparing apples to apples. You could do one for mixed attackers (which would be using 4 attacks, and anything goes) but I couldn't be arsed.
What is hit for less than 24-29% if you replace Crunch with Earthquake or Fire Blast?
EDIT2: I see it's Donphan for Earthquake. What about Fire Blast, though? Or heck, even Surf?
The Rank looks very good, except for the D-Rank. I don't see why Kingdra, Slowbro and Tauros are there. They are just inferior versions of Pokémon that are already higher on the rank, so they're basically useless for OU Play.
Ok, Kingdra is not weak to electric-type moves and hits harder on the physical side (40 more points in Attack plus Double-Edge), but its Curse set is still inferior due to not learn Roar. What else Kingdra has to offer over Suicune? Dragonbreath? Haze? Those are far from legitimate its use. The same goes for Slowbro being just a weaker version of Starmie. Tauros is the worst case, as it can't do ANYTHING that Kangaskhan can't. If Tauros is there, Ursaring should be there, as they both fall on the same category: being a weaker version of Kangaskhan.
I know Borat made an argument on them using Ampharos as example, but Ampharos is not just a weaker version of Raikou without Roar. At least, it shouldn't be used as that. Ampharos does learn Thunder Wave and Dynamicpunch, and should always use them in OU Play IMO. Ampharos is better at spreading paralysis than you might think, as Snorlax can't switch in so freely in both Thunder and Dynamicpunch, specially if it is paralyzed, risking a 25% chance of not moving. I'm not saying Ampharos is a fantastic mon, tbh it should be moved to the D-Rank IMO, as it is not that far from Electabuzz. But it has something unique to offer, and that's the only reason to justify a Pokémon being named on the Rank. An unique capability can justify using a Pokémon from the D-Rank, even if it's gimmick or almost always fits just there and there, but there is simply no justify in using the inferior versions of the better Pokémon.
And just one more thing: Entei deserves a spot on the D-Rank. It is probably better than Moltres, and definitely easier to use.
You need Crunch for... Wobbuffett, who otherwise takes at most 24-28% from Rock Slide. Yeah...
Ran it again for only the "relevant" Pokemon (I was generous, including all of OU and BL and quite a few cherry-picked UUs) and ended up getting Rock Slide/DPunch/Ice Beam/Tbolt, with minimum of 25-29% vs. Quag. Surf > Ice Beam has the same minimum, though, and I have yet to handle situations where two minima are equal.
Oh nice, getting back to the actual topic :P
As for D rank, I think you're right about a lot of those mons. I think if anything, it needs to be trimmed rather than appended to. I think I'll just remove D rank for now though, right now it is a dumping ground for either wacky gimmicks or old-school mons that just aren't used anymore, neither of which is really critical to have on a list like this. After all, the D-tier is, by the current OP's definition, a collection of Pokemon that aren't worth using most of the time.
To defend Kingdra, though, my thinking was a HPump/Rain Dance/RestTalk set. It can't counter Vap without Haze anyway (gets PP stalled because Vap has a billion PP), so use Sleep Talk to be a useful Nidoking/Gengar switch-in, and Rain Dance HPump can 3HKO Lax and 2HKO electrics before they can 3HKO with Thunder (unlike most waters, who run away from Thunders). It's true that it's very niche, but a regular defensive RestTalk set is pretty bad, because like you said, Suicune does that sort of thing better (sure, Kingdra can wall Gengar, but equal or worse against everything the bulky water needs to wall).
Taurus has a lot of speed though and sometimes even packs a special move. Though similar, he's different enough to kangaskhan to earn him a spot. Ursaring is one dimensional and always using return curse restalk set, which kang loves as well.
Entei maybe...I mean without a growth passer though what does entei ever do? I always found his stats contradict his poor movepool and he's fire...
Entei is still better than most of those on the D-Rank. Sunnybeam can actually wreck havoc on some teams out there. Enough to deserve a spot on the D-Rank.
For Tauros, Fire Blast/Thunder running off of 178 Sp. Atk. is a really desperate way to not stop on Skarmory. It is still not enough hence why Tauros isn't used. It is like running Thunderpunch/Fire Punch on Ursaring.