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Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jorgen, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    It's not that desperate, it's still a sound 3HKO. It's no more desperate than, say, Fire Blast Lax. And if you're using Tauros, you should be using it as a mixed attacker (e.g., Double-Edge/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Curse), not as that weak Sleep Talk set, so you have the space for it.

    Tauros has the advantage of being way faster than Kanga: fast enough to outspeed Zapdos. It also hits a little harder. These advantages are too subtle to warrant using it though (unlike Kanga's good CurseSubRoar gimmick).
  2. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    I agree with you, I'm not saying Tauros doesn't have its advantages. But still not enough to justify its use.

    Anyway, what I'm questioning is why Tauros' in if Ursaring isn't. If you run FB on Tauros, why not run Fire Punch on Ursaring? Both have a chance of 3HKO Skarmory (FB still isn't guaranteed factoring accuracy). Ursaring hits even harder than Tauros on the physical side and take special hits better. So why are you using FB Tauros and not FP Ursaring? Because Ursaring does learn Roar, and Tauros can't.
  3. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Well, if you notice, nobody's in D anymore.
  4. Nitro.

    Nitro.

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    Tauros needs to go Thunder imo, cause Cloyster is actually a big problem for him. By doing so he sacrifices some accuracy which sucks a lot. It's kinda cool that Tauros can still outspeed Exeggutor and Machamp at -1, but ultimately it's not that great.
  5. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    I'm not sure if removing the D-Rank is the best solution.
  6. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Tyranitar is immune to Wobbuffet anyway so long as it uses only special attacks (unless it Mimics DynamicPunch I guess? Pfft.). So yeah. I figured Quag was going to be the new minimum, it's the proto-Swampert. Surf -> Ice Beam I'd prefer for actual use, because relying on DPunch to hit Steelix is worse than relying on Rock Slide to hit Egg.


    On topic: I agree with the removal of D-rank. Browsing through C, I can see what most of their niches are (Ampharos has Punches, DrumZard has the golden OHKO on Skarm/Lix/Forr, Clefable has Drum+Moonlight, Espy has GrowthPass and isn't ruined by Raikou (Vap hates Thunder, Jolt hates Roar) while also having different STAB to the usual GrowthPass target (Zapdos), Golem is just instant offense (and it even Spins!), Houndoom has SunnyBeam and Pursuit, Jolt's a versatile passer that only really hates Raikou, Kangy has CurseSubRoar, Porygon2 is the only non-Uber CurseRecoverer, Quag Drums vs. Electrics, Smeargle DrumPasses or TrapPasses and has Spore, Tenta has that cool Sub/SwordsDance set) but I'm kinda confused what Meganium and Muk have. Meganium is in most respects a bad Egg (Egg gets Synthesis and Reflect too, remember!) unless it goes Swords Dance which sucks anyway (You want a reliable setup with instant recovery? Go P2, it has STAB and isn't running out of recovery PP. You want a dangerous setup with instant recovery? Go Clefable, which isn't hardwalled by Skarm and again has STAB.). Muk... all it's got over Lax is poison on its STAB move, and you're certainly not dropping Snorlax for that. I guess its niche is being a mini-Snorlax that isn't named Snorlax and thus can be used when you've already got Snorlax? Kinda seems weak as a "niche".
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  7. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Meganium is not a mini-Egg at all. Way faster and way better special defense and lack of Pursuit weakness, at the obvious cost of offensive presence of course. Its main role is defense defense defense. Gets Screens for support, too, so it's not a complete lump.

    Muk is just a really good Exploder. You don't replace Snorlax with it, and you don't really play it like Lax either. If anything it's more like Egg. It's not performing any explicit offensive role, and its defensive abilities are limited to being tanky enough to Explode on stuff, but it can just sort of mess with teams and be a real pain in the ass to deal with.
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Synthesis has such bad PP though. I guess Light Screen/SpD/Pursuit neutrality are things it has over Egg (Speed eeeh I guess it matters for Vaporeon but the rest of those things don't really care).

    My point is that MixLax is a better MixMuk (and CurseLax a better CurseMuk). Muk's only advantage over Lax (besides the aforementioned Sludge Bomb poison chance) is that it isn't named Snorlax.
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Meganium's also not quad-weak to bug. And the Speed matters vs. Ttar and Machamp. Not to mention the vastly improved Special bulk matters when trying to wall stuff like Nidoking, Tyranitar again, Electrics, etc.

    Synthesis has bad PP, yes, that's a given. That's really the only thing holding it back, though, as otherwise, it's pretty much the most unbreakable wall in GSC. Seriously.

    At face value their stat spreads have marked similarities, but I don't think I'd play Muk and BoomLax the same. The latter abuses surprise factor to get its kills, the former, you know what's coming, but you aren't always able to deal with it.
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Besides Sludge Bomb's poison, does Muk do anything that BoomLax can't? Everything that resists Normal resists Poison as well (though not vice versa), and their coverage is almost identical besides Muk not getting Earthquake or Surf and Lax not getting Giga Drain (boo hoo, Quag can't take DEs anyway). But Lax has more Attack, more bulk, a less crippling physical weakness (Machamp/Dpunchers vs. Lix/Nido/Wak/Don/Quakers), and STAB on Selfdestruct.

    While desperately perusing Muk's movepool for anything vaguely worthwhile, I did find Thief. So there is that, at least.


    (Conceded on Meganium. It's been so long since I've seen one that I forgot how indestructible it is.)
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  11. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Muk is good (mainly) due to Explosion being too good. The comparision with Snorlax doesn't matter because even if it looks a weaker version of Snorlax on paper, it plays a completely different role. You can switch Muk on things Snorlax can't and you explode on different things as well.
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    You're right that Muk's Poison typing allows it to switch in on non-EQ Machamp, I hadn't considered that. You explode on different things only if the opponent wants you to; anything they would bring into MixLax they can bring into Muk as well, though they may choose to bring in something that defeats Muk and not Snorlax, like Nidoking (Gengar and Rest Tyranitar are also safe thanks to Muk's lack of Earthquake, though, which means it's also possible you don't get to Explode on anything and are sad).

    Ehh it just seems like a lot of the Cs make you quake in your boots and Muk doesn't. Golem's at least got STAB EQ to scare off non-Skarmory Normal resists, whereas every single Normal resist also resists Muk's STAB. Golem's also a spinner - not the best spinner, but a decent one - which gives it additional utility beyond being a powder-keg (because there's no shortage of actually-good Exploders).
  13. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Muk does learn Fire Blast though.
  14. Borat

    Borat

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    being a shitty lax doesn't discredit a pokemon at all. porygon on its best day is still just a shitty lax. lax does everything better than everyone. if there existed a pokemon that had the same movepool/typing as snorlax but with -20 to all stats, he'd be ou as fuck.

    if anything, ampharos is nothing but a shitty raikou. if you do use him (mind you, big if), it'll be because of thunder wave, not fire punch. fire punch is ass, there's a reason raikou doesn't go hp fire.

    smeargle agility passes; agility wins games, most sweepers are self sufficient in boosting their own attacks (poliwrath, snorlax, quagsire, charizard, marowak, snorlax) and just need an agility to win the game.
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    DynamicPunch is a Punch too.

    I am aware of that.
  16. Borat

    Borat

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    on ampharos it isn't. ampharos' best sets are a raikou/zapdos copy.
  17. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    Ampharos' best set is Thunder Wave - Dynamicpunch - Thunder - Hidden Power [Ice]. There's absolutelly no reason to run Ampharos without TW and DP, otherwise it is just a weaker version of Raikou/Zapdos.
  18. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Twave alone is reason enough imo. That said DPunch helps more than you'd think. It's the parafusion that kills Lax, plus it actually keeps Ttar out better. Amphy isn't quite a Zapper/Raikou clone because its lack of speed doesn't let it do all the wonderful secondary stuff they do.
  19. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    It's not like Zapdos can't Thunder Wave. Don't put Big Bird on the same level as the shitty catdogbeast. Zapdos is King of the Hill, Raikou belongs in a museum.

    Well, that and having less offensive presence than Blissey.
    .Maguss. likes this.
  20. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    At least Meganium can do something which isn't entirely negated by RestTalk. Blissey wishes it had Leech Seed.
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  21. jaQ

    jaQ

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    Meganium is unique to exeggutor because of growl, lightscreen and the bulky defensive stats. Bellossom is more of a weaker eggy and isn't on here for that reason.

    It's more like a miltank without heal bell, but with light screen.
  22. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Except it also tanks Electrics.

    I really can't stress how complete a wall Meganium is. Pure Grass is an excellent defensive typing, plus it gets instant recovery, blazing Speed by GSC standards, and Reflect + Leech Seed to stall out CurseLax, which the next-best mixed wall, ST Suicune, can't really do. It almost doesn't matter that it can't do offense because it doesn't let the opponent do offense either. The real problem is that it just runs out of Synthesis PP way too fast.
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    There are a few things that do actually force it out directly - Misdreavus, Drill Peck/RestTalk Zapdos (not as rare as you'd think), Heracross, Charizard. Tentacruel sets up in its face; to some extent so does Kangaskhan. Quite the short list, though.
  24. Stef0w

    Stef0w

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    What a superbly interesting Meta, Everything just seem to fit like clockwork, And playing it honestly reminds me more of Chess than regular Pokemon.

    I do think D rank should still be around, As they help keep bad gimmicks away from decent gimmicks.

    I have been using Omastar to great succes, But Im pretty noob to the metagame, So Im not sure it deserves a nomination.
  25. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush in brazil rain
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    Well I'm a great Meganium enthusiast as you probably know from my previous matches, and I will just second everything Jorgen said about her. I'd say she deserves B rank actually.

    Aside Zapdos, she matches well against the whole top OU mons; leech seed + spikes is great to force switches, and this is something that differs Meganium from the other defensive shit: skarm may be a great mon for example, but it essentially does nothing but phaze lax; starmie is the greatest spinner for sure, but it basically spins, let lax switch and is forced to run.

    Meganium is that kind of divide and conquer mon, screens and leech seed forces the opponent to play the way you want. It's the right way to play defensively: I feel like people stick with the common offensive cores and get the mindset that stall doesn't work, which is not true at all.
    BKC likes this.

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