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Gyarados [4F]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Aldaron, May 25, 2009.

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  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gyarados

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Ice Fang / Stone Edge
    move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>One of Gyarados's most powerful and intimidating sets as of date. The addition of physical Waterfall, Ice Fang, and Stone Edge has allowed Gyarados to become one of the most powerful sweepers in the OU metagame when played correctly. Dragon Dance is obviously the crux of this set as well as the EVs, outpacing Jolly Tyranitar before a Dragon Dance and besting even Jolly Weavile after a Dragon Dance. STAB Waterfall gives the set an immense advantage over many physical sweepers as it easily purges bulky Grounds from the picture. The flinch rate from Waterfall is also helpful after a Dragon Dance. Ice Fang and Stone Edge give the best coverage when paired with Waterfall. Despite the shaky accuracy of Stone Edge as well as Ice Fang at times, they're almost necessary to eliminate threats such as opposing Gyarados, Zapdos, Celebi, and Breloom. Earthquake can work in tandem with either Stone Edge or Ice Fang. Rock / Ground / Water gives well-rounded coverage but is walled by Breloom and has trouble with Celebi and Tangrowth. Ground / Water / Ice has issues with bulky flyers that are neutral to ice such as Skarmory and other Gyarados; this type combination is also walled by the rare Shedinja. Any of the aforementioned moves can work together as long as you use Waterfall and Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Life Orb adds to the massive damage potential of this set. Gyarados is most effective in the late-game when everything is weakened or affected by status. Even after a Dragon Dance, most common OU pokemon are either 2HKOed or even OHKOed with minor exceptions such as Skarmory, Slowbro, and particularly bulky walls. Small nuisances aside, such as more bulky physical walls, Gyarados can easily pose a massive threat. A Jolly nature can be used instead of Adamant if you feel you need more speed, but comes at the cost of less power.</p>

    <p>Leftovers is a decent choice for an item on this set but you'll also realize that Gyarados will miss out on those necessary OHKOs or 2HKOs that Life Orb gives. Bite can work on this set over Ice Fang if you feel that more damage against Starmie and Slowbro is necessary. It will also damage Celebi, but it will do slightly less than Ice Fang normally would.</p>

    <p>Bulky Water Pokemon, such as Suicune, Vaporeon, Milotic and Ludicolo, will defeat you one on one, especially if they carry Hidden Power Electric. As such, carrying Pokemon like Celebi, Latias or Jirachi will at the very least cause these Pokemon to hesitate before switching in. Another common strategy to beat Gyarados is to simply throw Choice Scarf on a Pokemon with an Electric or Rock move, and have it outspeed and OHKO Gyarados. Gengar, Azelf, Latias, and Jirachi are the most common users of this strategy, and therefore Tyranitar, Weavile, or Scizor all complement this Gyarados offensively.</p>

    Alright, just mentioned the most common methods of stopping offensive Gyarados one on one. Then mentioned ways to beat them via the team. This is the point of the set comment additions: specific examples, specific additions.

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Stone Edge / Avalanche / Dragon Dance
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Gyarados is a very capable Sleep Talker and defensive Pokémon in general. This set is designed to come in on physical threats and tank. Waterfall is for primary STAB, which works off Gyarados's fantastic attack stat. Stone Edge gives Gyarados a wide range of coverage alongside Waterfall, Dragon Dance can increase the chances of a late-game sweep, while Stone Edge helps against opposing Gyarados. Avalanche offers a more powerful option against Dragons, though most are hit super effectively by Stone Edge.</p>

    <p>Thanks to Intimidate, this Gyarados takes physical hits on switch-ins just as well as a Milotic with Marvel Scale activated. Additionally, a +1 Life Orb Stone Edge from an opposing Gyarados will never KO you even after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

    <p>If you opt to use Dragon Dance instead of one of the offensive moves, use an EV spread of 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe. This spread allows you to hit 309 Speed after a Dragon Dance, allowing you to outspeed +nature base 90 Speed Pokémon, as well almost all defensive variants of Zapdos that you will see.</p>

    <p>In addition to bulky Water Pokemon and Choice Scarf users with super effective attacks, this Gyarados has difficulty with Whirlwind Skarmory, Leech Seed Celebi, physically defensive Zapdos, Kingdra and Hidden Power Electric or Charge Beam Cresselia. If this Gyarados isn't carrying Dragon Dance, then it is also susceptible to Pokemon who set up, such Curse Snorlax or Calm Mind Jirachi. Depending on which threat is more pressing for your team, either a Nasty Plot mixed Infernape, for Skarmory, Cresselia, or Zapdos or a Choice Band Infernape, for Snorlax or Jirachi, is a solid offensive complement. Also, so long as the Snorlax does not have Earthquake, a Dragon Dance Tyranitar with Taunt is a beneficial teammate, as it will generally beat most of those and also remove Kingdra's Rain.</p>

    <p>This set is particularly vulernable to most Kingdra, and unfortunately most Pokemon that beat the other problematic Pokemon for this Gyarados do not enjoy switching into Kingdra. Empoleon, who can deal with nearly all Kingdra, Suicune with Roar, or Swampert with Roar, who can both also help against stat boosters, all help deal with this particular issue. It should be noted that while Empoleon and Suicune both add an additional Electric weakness, Swampert is immune to Electric and has the added bonus of resisting Rock-type attacks.</p>

    For the sake of prose, I decided to only mention the problems I discussed in the first set with a passing mention, and focused more on other specific examples this would run into. In the set comments, we probably don't want to keep saying "Magnezone is the best offensive complement" over and over and over and over and over and over and over

    [SET]
    name: BulkyGyara
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Taunt
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Gyarados's typing and ability give it an advantage over many other Water-types. This set also attempts to use a slower, more defensive approach rather than the usual hard hitting, offensive strategy. The total EVs give 370 HP / 344 Atk / 219 Def / 234 Spe. 156 HP ensures that it never is 2HKOed by Timid Life Orb Heatran's Fire Blast with Stealth Rock and Leftovers taken into account. 108 Atk allows Gyarados to always 2HKO 252 Def / 148 HP Bold Blissey, factoring Stealth Rocks and Leftovers. 144 Spe is to outspeed Gengar after a Dragon Dance. 100 Defense is EV leftover, but it's really necessary to tank hits from the likes of Lucario, Scizor, and Heracross. Taunt also differentiates this moveset from the others as it can prevent you from being phazed out or crippled by status.</p>

    <p>Unlike most Gyarados sets this takes on Skarmory fairly well. Without Intimidate Skarmory still isn't doing much with Drill Peck and Taunt is still preventing Gyarados from being thwarted off by Whirlwind. Intimidate also helps this set-up as it weakens the damage from Brave Bird. Stone Edge gives you the upper hand against waters such as Suicune and Milotic if they lack HP Electric and also crushes most Zapdos after a Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>While the offensive Gyarados prefers to be used during the late-game, this set can be used in any phase of the game. The use of Taunt is crucial to this set because many moves such as Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and other Taunt users screw around with the normal strategy. Dragon Dance allows you to threaten your opponent in the early-game but is most useful in the late-game when its counters have been sufficiently weakened or have been induced with a status effect.</p>

    <p>Without an Ice or Ground move in addition to Waterfall and Stone Edge, this Gyarados is resisted completely by Breloom and Empoleon. Additionally, without both full EV investment into Attack and Life Orb, Gyarados will lose to Thunderbolt Weezing and ThunderPunch Dusknoir, barring a critical hit or excessive flinches from Waterfall. For these specific issues, a Natural Cure Pokemon that can take Electric attacks, such as Shaymin or Celebi, is an optimal partner, as it will easily take Breloom Spores and Weezing or Dusknoir Will-O-Wisps. Note that because of Breloom, Empoleon and the threat of Will-O-Wisp, Tyranitar and Scizor become less optimal partners.</p>

    <p>Because Taunt will generally force the opponent into using super effective Electric or Rock attacks, typing partnership becomes especially important. Hence, Breloom and Ground Pokemon, such as mixed Flygon or Dugtrio, are favorable partners. Breloom is especially useful if its Toxic Orb has already poisoned it, as it will be able to switch in without fear of Will-O-Wisp in case initially Taunting is too risky a choice.</p>

    Again, I talk about different scenarios and Pokemon that would affect this Gyarados. This might lead us to, at the very least, put the most used / popular set of Pokemon first, just so, if necessary, an effective "trickle down" of the sets' problems occurs.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 2: Ice Fang / Payback
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Although not as threatening as some of the sets listed above, the early available source of power gives this an advantage over most walls right off the bat. Removing Dragon Dance for a fourth move gives this perfect coverage against any switch-in. Waterfall is usually the best choice on this set; however, Aqua Tail can be used over Waterfall as the lack of Speed can justify the use of a more powerful, albeit less accurate move. Payback works over Ice Fang as the lower Speed can make a difference against threats such as Starmie and Celebi.</p>

    <p>Of the many physically defensive Pokemon in the standard metagame, only Forretress, Skarmory, Cresselia, Celebi, and physically bulky Water Pokemon, such as Suicune and Swampert, can switch-in to this set. And even though they aren't 2HKOed assuming maximum EV investment into HP and Defense, only Suicune can really comfortably switch-in with the omnipresent threat of entry hazards in the metagame, and even then it requires Hidden Power Electric to do significant damage. Instead of these Pokemon, however, what should be focused on specifically for this set are Pokemon that are more than capable of revenge killing Gyarados, such as Azelf, Jolteon, Gengar, Zapdos, and Salamence with Stone Edge. A Pokemon that can switch into all of these, barring Grass Knot Azelf, and immediately present a significant threat is Rock Polish Rhyperior, with Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Crunch as its primary moves. The common Pursuiters again make an optimal combination, though Tyranitar needs to be aware of Focus Blast from Gengar and Scizor needs to be aware of Hidden Power Fire from Gengar and Flamethrower from Azelf. Since this Gyarados needs to take special care with faster Pokemon with super effective attacks, luring these Pokemon in becomes even more important than usual for this set.</p>

    <p>Lucario tends to lure in Gengar, Zapdos, and Salamence, so an Agility Lucario with Crunch and Stone edge or Ice Punch would greatly assist Gyarados offensively, in addition to helping out defensively by resisting Rock. Fighting Pokemon in general tend to lure Gengar, Zapdos and Salamence in, if only to avoid significant damage from the initial Fighting move, so consider pairing this Gyarados with a Fighting Pokemon that has Stone Edge and using Stone Edge first turn as opposed to the obvious Fighting move. Since Salamence is also potentially a problem, carrying a Pokemon with higher than 328 Speed with an Ice move that can also take a Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Stone Edge is also advantageous. Some choices include Choice Scarf Jirachi with Ice Punch, Choice Scarf Metagross with Ice Punch, and Choice Scarf Heatran with Hidden Power Ice or Dragon Pulse. Note that these three can also switch-in the other common threats, barring a predicted Fire move for the first two or a predicted Fighting or Ground move for Heatran.</p>

    Nothing different here. You'll notice I'm vaguely referring to defensive / typing combinations. That's because regardless of the set, a defensive / typing combination is general, and is probably better served in the team options category.

    [SET]
    name: SubBounce
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Bounce
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Gyarados has received a much needed replacement to its previous physical STAB Hidden Power Flying back in ADV in the form of Bounce. Despite suffering from low PP, Bounce's respectable base power after benefiting from STAB, along with its 30% paralysis rate, makes it a great addition to Gyarados' movepool, and an even better one at that when paired with Waterfall's 20% flinch rate. Sadly it all comes with the price of being a 2 turn move, as such Bounce is awfully susceptible to Protect stalling and because of its limited PP it will be to your advantage to avoid such encounters as much as possible. It is also worth mentioning that the Water + Flying-type combo is resisted only by Empoleon and Lanturn outside of Ubers, so type coverage will rarely be an issue.</p>

    <p>The given EVs allow for 332 HP, 383 Attack, and 261 Speed. 332 HP is divisible by 4 so you activate the pinch berry of your choice after your setting up your third Substitute. Max Attack is self-explanatory for a set such as this, where massive amounts of brute strength will undoubtedly come in handy. 261 Speed on the other hand allows Gyarados to outpace everything below neutral base 80s and, after a single Dragon Dance, outspeed all Pokemon who reside under base the 130 speed group.</p>

    <p>Liechi Berry is recommended for the power boost, but a Salac Berry should not be ignored, as the boost it grants in Speed allows Gyarados to keep up with all those Choice Scarf users going around. Due to the stallish nature of Substitute + Bounce, Leftovers can also be considered if one opts for a more defensive approach when setting up.</p>

    <p>sorry i've only used this set like five times someone else is going to have write this part up</p>

    Yea, I've barely used this so I can't in good conscience write this ._.

    [SET]
    name: Flail
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Flail
    item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Gyarados has the ability to easily switch into battle and force the opponent to switch out. This set takes advantage of both factors in order to set up. On the turn the opponent switches to its appropriate counter, Gyarados will use Substitute. Depending on the counter, Gyarados will either Dragon Dance or Substitute accordingly, and proceed to sweep with a huge advantage in Speed and Attack. It might seem like the ease by which this is done is being oversimplified; however, this cannot be farther from the truth. How does nearly every individual deal with Gyarados? By switching, which gives Gyarados the opportunity to set up its Substitute.</p>

    <p>For example, if the opponent switched in Starmie, Gyarados will Substitute down to Liechi activation and Dragon Dance on the final Substitute breaking turn, giving Gyarados +2 Attack, +1 Speed and a 200 BP move to easily OHKO Starmie with. However, if something like Celebi was switched in the turn Gyarados used Substitute, Gyarados will then Dragon Dance, and use Substitute if it feels a Thunder Wave / Leech Seed coming or Dragon Dance if a Grass Knot is coming. Depending on the amount of health left, Gyarados will then (probably) Substitute again for the Berry activation, and have +3 Attack, +2 Speed and 200 BP move to deal with the opposition.</p>

    <p>Liechi Berry or Salac Berry is purely a matter of preference in the end. It depends on whether having Gyarados outspeed Choice Scarf Gengar that switch in later or having the extra boost of Attack is preferred, mostly to OHKO threats like Celebi.</p>

    <p>Water and Normal are resisted only by Empoleon and Shedinja in the standard game. Since Pokemon like Suicune, Cresselia and Slowbro are beaten much easier with Stealth Rock in play, it is highly recommended that you consider entry hazard support, significant because it also removes Shedinja from the equation. This is especially relevant because after 1 Dragon Dance and the Liechi activation, Gyarados will do a minimum of 75% to Suicune with a maximum powered Flail. Since this set counts on being at around 1 HP for maximum utility, it is also highly recommended that you give this Rain support, as that will simultaneously boost Waterfall and prevent Sandstorm or Hail from fainting a 1 HP Gyarados. Since Empoleon and the weather inducers Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow are the main concerns for this set, anything that lures those four in is an effective teammate.</p>

    <p>Since Heatran lures in Empoleon and Tyranitar easily, you can run the Substitute and Life Orb Heatran with Earth Power to significantly damage both Pokemon. Hippowdon will frequently switch into Metagross, so running the mixed set with Grass Knot would be effective. Swampert will almost always lure in Abomasnow, so running Stone Edge Swampert should be seriously considered, as Swampert can also provide the beneficial Stealth Rock assistance. Dugtrio with help eliminate all of Empoleon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow, so consider running it, perhaps even with U-turn support from something that lures of them in, such as Celebi for Abomasnow or Crobat for Tyranitar and Empoleon.</p>

    Because this set has a specific concern, I decided to include a general assistance opinion here: the Stealth Rock bit. I'm not much for absolutely stringent requirements, so if you guys ever feel it is necessary to emphasize a general point or a defensive typing, go right ahead.

    [Team Options]

    <p>As for all offensively inclined Pokemon, having a teammate setup Stealth Rock in the early game pays enormous dividends in the late game. Various 3HKOs, such as on Dusknoir and Weezing, turn into 2HKOs, especially significant considering Waterfall's Flinch potential. Having Stealth Rock up will also allow Offensive Life Orb Gyarados to run a +Speed nature and still 2HKO Celebi with Ice Fang, especially significant since Celebi is one of the most common switch-ins to Gyarados, and common Choice Scarfers, such as Heatran or Heracross, often carry moves that can KO Gyarados and are generally faster than the Adamant versions of Gyarados. Due to Gyarados' part Flying typing, and the fact that it will often take damage from weather such as Sandstorm or Hail, supporting Gyarados with a Rapid Spinner is also very beneficial. Without having to worry about Stealth Rock, Gyarados can give your team a Fighting, Fire and Ground attack switch-in that simultaneously serves as a potent offensive threat.</p>


    This was my general support paragraph. Figured it was a good opening topic. What stuff Gyarados can use in general to maximize its utility.

    <p>Offensively, Gyarados in general has trouble sweeping if bulky Water Pokemon, Cresselia, any of Skarmory, Bronzong, or Forretress (the last two for the Explosion possibility), or Choice Scarf users with Electric or Rock moves are on the opposition's team. An easy method to lure in bulky Water Pokemon is to use a Pokemon that carries Explosion and that is either Fire, Rock, or Ground type or has common attacks resisted by Water. Examples include Heatran, Metagross, Regirock, Steelix, or Claydol, all of which, auspiciously, can also set up Stealth Rock. It should be noted that many of the Choice Scarfers that attempt to check Gyarados, such as Gengar, Azelf and Starmie, possess the same weaknesses to Pursuit Tyranitar, Scizor, or Weavile that Cresselia does, so those should be considered as well. Regarding Skarmory, Bronzong and Forretress, Magnet Rise Magnezone will deal with them everytime assuming they do not carry Shed Shell. If the Shed Shell variations are a serious concern, note that Pokemon such as Knock Off Shuckle or Gliscor will lure those three in and knock off the Shell Shell right away.</p>

    Second paragraph emphasized offensive combinations: what Pokemon help Gyarados beat what it cannot?

    <p>Defensively, any Pokemon that resist Electric or Rock attacks, or both, are favorable teammates. Many such Pokemon include Magnezone, a combination that actually resists every type in the game, Flygon, Breloom, who can support with 100% Sleep and Leech Seed, Swampert, who can also set up Stealth Rock, Nidoqueen, who can set up Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, Rhyperior, who can set up Stealth Rock or offensively assist Gyarados, and Tyranitar, who doesn't resist Electric but, due to the automatic Special Defense boost and the fact that the most common Electric moves are special, takes minimal damage from Electric attacks and can Pursuit away many of Gyarados' problems or even set up Stealth Rock. It's also important to note what Pokemon will make it much easier to switch Gyarados into the battle. Heatran or Infernape, who invite Water, Fighting, or Ground attacks, any of Metagross, Lucario, or Jirachi, who invite Fire or Ground attacks, Tyranitar, who invites Fighting, Water, Ground, Steel, and Bug attacks, Scizor, who invites Fire attacks, and Blissey, who invites physical and Fighting attacks, are all Pokemon who make switching Gyarados in very simple.</p>

    Third paragraph was defensive combinations: What Pokemon can take what the opposition will throw at Gyarados? Also, just as important, what Pokemon allow Gyarados to switch in more easily?

    <p>Since Pokemon is a team game, you can't just assume that you'll easily be able to lure out Gyarados' checks, beat them and win. These checks have their own commonly used partners, and an intelligent team builder will keep those partners in mind as well. Luckily for Gyarados, most of the common teammates for bulky Water Pokemon, such as Suicune, Swampert and Slowbro, are Scizor, Salamence, Heatran, Infernape, and Tyranitar, three of which are easily handled by Gyarados, with the other two not appreciating an Intimidate. As for Cresselia, Gengar, Azelf, or Starmie, the two notable additions are Blissey and opposing Gyarados. Blissey will only switch into Gyarados if it is Thunder Waving, and that is an extremely risky choice in the first place, since a +1 Attack Adamant Life Orb Gyarados' Waterfall will OHKO Blissey on average after factoring in Stealth Rock. Opposing Gyarados can be a problem, as they will often switch in to Intimidate, and then switch back out to something like Cresselia or Bronzong. For this scenario, it is recommended that you Stone Edge first turn as opposed to Dragon Dancing, and then you switch to your own method of handling those Pokemon.</p>

    I was using Doug's statistics the entire time, but this was where they shined specifically. Here you talk about the Pokemon most likely to be partnered with the problematic Pokemon. "Team perspective." Gyarados was lucky in that it beats most of what is partnered with its counters lol (which is an interesting factoid itself!)

    <p>There are various other strategies that Gyarados can be involved in with other Pokemon. Since Gyarados invites Electric attacks, Volt Absorb Jolteon, potentially a Baton Pass variant to take advantage of a forced switch, or Motor Drive Electivire are both effective partners. Since some Pokemon might try and check Gyarados with a Choice Scarf Rock move, running a Swords Dance Lucario in tandem with Gyarados could often let you set up a sweep from Lucario's side. The same can be said for Choice Scarf users with Electric moves; just switch your Dragon Dance or Substitute Tyranitar, Rock Polish Rhyperior, or Substitute, Spore, Leech Seed Breloom in on the Electric move, take minimal damage and Dragon Dance, Rock Polish or Substitute on the switch. Essentially, take advantage of what you know is coming, and give Gyarados team support that not only resists attacks but also poses immediate danger to the opponent. If you can do this constantly, you can switch the pace of the battle to your advantage.</p>

    This was just my random strategies section, where you can basically emphasize anything extra you might want to.

    So yea, that's what I was thinking when I started this. Each set will have additional comments about what gives it trouble and what can be paired with the set Pokemon to increase efficacy. The Team Options will then attempt to generalize the team support concept via general support, offensive combinations, defensive combinations, information on common opposition tactics, and random tidbits.
  2. iKitsune

    iKitsune

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    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Roar / Dragon Dance
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    Roar / DD are the most commonly used moves. THis set needs to be changed to reflect its role in stall teams. Unfortunatley for you with Roar as a main option almost all comments need to be rewritten. Roar allows it to be a counter to Kingdra, Snorlax and others, quite the oppposite to what you currently have.

    Old moves ie Stone Edge and Avalanche should just be mentioned in set comments.

    I was thinking about this and i think this should be included.

    When using GYarados it is wise to base your first move on the style of team you are playing against rather then just DD and hope for a sweep. Against an offensive team it may be optimal to spam waterfall on the first instance catching the opponents revenge killer such as a Scarf Rotom or a Scarf Flygon. Otherwise you may just get Tbolted as they outspeed you at least you get some damage on them this way.

    You should determine what is the right decision using contextual evidence from the opponents team. Are they running a typically offensive build spam waterfall , think they have Celebi in the wings then DD and hit it hard. You get the idea.

    If you want I can write this obviously i will fix it up.
  3. Ace Trainer Link

    Ace Trainer Link

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    Why 4 evs in hp for offensive? It dies after 4 switchins with stealth rock, put them in def.
  4. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    I definitely think that Bounce should be slashed in on at least the BulkyGyara set, if not the Offensive set as well. It gives amazing coverage, resisted only by Empoleon and Shedinja, I think. It is also good at taking out things like vaporeon and suicune, who would try to beat Gyarados with HP Elec. Gyarados then can use it to deal some nice damage with STAB and 85 base power plus the attack you could get from Dragon Dance.
  5. Knut LB

    Knut LB

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    Bounce hits Shedinja super effective.
  6. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    Yeah, I guess it would. I guess I was thinking about Normal/Water. Make that Lanturn and Empoleon, outside of Ubers.
  7. Zepar

    Zepar

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    You have Life Orb, though, so it doesn't matter.

    There is already a peer edit on it. How are you going to beat Vaporeon, when it Protects on your Bounces?
    (I am not talking about BulkyGyarados) Still if you are going to use Bounce, you want Leftovers, and it wouldn't be the best idea to Bounce on Vaporeon. You don't beat Suicune either, it does 35.89% - 42.57% without Life Orb, not a 2HKO, while it 2HKOes with Hidden Power.
  8. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    I'll acknowlegde that this is a downfall of Bounce, but the other benefits outway this.

    | Vaporeon | Move | Protect | 62.9 |
    | Vaporeon | Move | HP-Electric | 35.9 |

    If I were using this I would generally switch out of Vaporeon. But, being able to use Bounce on Celebi and other bulky pokemon or those that resist water is really nice.
  9. Evil Hamster

    Evil Hamster

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    Taunt?
  10. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    You still need to taunt on the switch because Protect has priority.
  11. Evil Hamster

    Evil Hamster

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    But it can't Protect multiple times in a row- there's nothing to stop you using Taunt again next go and then using Bounce. Unless it has HP Electric, I guess.
  12. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    Which is when Vaporeon uses HP Elec.

    No matter what Gyarados does, Vaporeon's going to be hard to take down. He has Water Absorb, Base 130 HP, and HP Elec. If Gyarados has bounce, Vappy can just use Protect.
  13. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    It does. That extra 1HP mean you take one extra point of SR damage every time Gyarados switches in. After 1 switch in, you've just lost that extra HP, and after 2 switch ins, you have lost more. LO doesn't change it.

    Agreeing with Ace Trainer Link, 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe is optimal.
  14. Zepar

    Zepar

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    So you are saying it matters when you don't hit at all and switch in four times? It doesn't matter when you switch into SR twice, and hit five times, so I can't think of any time it would matter.
  15. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Aldaron, could you incorporate my Bulky peer edit into this? Thanks.
  16. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    First of all
    1) He slashed Leftovers in the set. That alone is a major thing
    2) Is there any drawbacks to moving the EV over to defense? If analyses are supposed to be perfect as it can be through the limits of the human eyes, there's no reason to not move the 4 EVs somewhere else
  17. ToF

    ToF
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    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Ice Fang / Stone Edge
    move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>One of Gyarados's most powerful and intimidating sets as of date. The addition of physical Waterfall, Ice Fang, and Stone Edge has allowed Gyarados to become one of the most powerful sweepers in the OU metagame when played correctly. Dragon Dance and the EV's are obviously the crux of this set, outpacing Jolly Tyranitar before a Dragon Dance and besting even Jolly Weavile after a Dragon Dance. STAB Waterfall gives the set an immense advantage over many physical sweepers as it easily purges bulky Grounds from the picture. The flinch rate from Waterfall is also helpful after a Dragon Dance. Ice Fang and Stone Edge give the best coverage when paired with Waterfall. Despite the shaky accuracy of Stone Edge and Ice Fang at times, they're almost necessary to eliminate threats such as opposing Gyarados, Zapdos, Celebi, and Breloom. Earthquake can work in tandem with either Stone Edge or Ice Fang. Rock / Ground / Water gives well-rounded coverage but is walled by Breloom and has trouble with Celebi and Tangrowth. Ground / Water / Ice has issues with bulky flyers that are neutral to ice such as Skarmory and other Gyarados; this type combination is also walled by the rare Shedinja. Any of the aforementioned moves can work together as long as you use Waterfall and Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Life Orb adds to the massive damage potential of this set. Gyarados is most effective in the late-game when everything is weakened or affected by status. Even after a Dragon Dance, most common OU pokemon are either 2HKOed or even OHKOed with minor exceptions such as Skarmory, Slowbro, and particularly bulky walls. Small nuisances aside, such as more bulky physical walls, Gyarados can easily pose a massive threat. A Jolly nature can be used instead of Adamant if you feel you need more speed, to outpace base 130s such as Jolteon; however, this comes at the cost of less power.</p>

    <p>Leftovers is a decent choice for an item on this set but you'll also realize that Gyarados will miss out on those necessary OHKOs or 2HKOs that Life Orb gives. Bite can work on this set over Ice Fang if you feel that more damage against Starmie and Slowbro is necessary. It will also damage Celebi, but it will do slightly less than Ice Fang normally would.</p>

    <p>Bulky Water Pokemon, such as Suicune, Vaporeon, Milotic and Ludicolo, will defeat you one on one, especially if they carry Hidden Power Electric. As such, carrying Pokemon like Celebi, Latias or Jirachi will at the very least cause these Pokemon to hesitate before switching in. Another common strategy to beat Gyarados is to simply throw Choice Scarf on a Pokemon with an Electric or Rock move, and have it outspeed and OHKO Gyarados. Gengar, Azelf, Latias, and Jirachi are the most common users of this strategy, and therefore Tyranitar, Weavile, or Scizor all complement this Gyarados offensively.</p>


    Alright, a fixed up a few awkwardly worded sentences. One thing I wanted to mention was the addition of Bounce to this set, at least as a slash at the least. You mention Bite in other options over Bounce, which is the incorrect mention according to usage statistics. Bounce not only is commonly used on the Life Orb sets, but is quite a potent threat as it can cause a lot of switches when used on the turn say Celebi switches in. In addition to the STAB Gyarados gets on Bounce, I definitely feel it should be mentioned.


    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Stone Edge / Avalanche / Dragon Dance
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Gyarados is a very capable Sleep Talker and defensive Pokémon in general. This set is designed to come in on physical threats and tank. Waterfall is for primary STAB, which works off Gyarados's fantastic attack stat. Stone Edge gives Gyarados a wide range of coverage alongside Waterfall, Dragon Dance can increase the chances of a late-game sweep, while Stone Edge helps against opposing Gyarados. Avalanche offers a more powerful option against Dragons, though most are hit super effectively by Stone Edge.</p>

    <p>Thanks to Intimidate, this Gyarados takes physical hits on switch-ins just as well as a Milotic with Marvel Scale activated. Additionally, a +1 Life Orb Stone Edge from an opposing Gyarados will never KO you even after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

    <p>If you opt to use Dragon Dance instead of one of the offensive moves, use an EV spread of 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe. This spread allows you to hit 309 Speed after a Dragon Dance, allowing you to outspeed +nature base 90 Speed Pokémon, as well almost all defensive variants of Zapdos that you will see.</p>

    <p>In addition to bulky Water Pokemon and Choice Scarf users with super effective attacks, this Gyarados has difficulty with Whirlwind Skarmory, Leech Seed Celebi, physically defensive Zapdos, Kingdra and Hidden Power Electric or Charge Beam Cresselia. If this Gyarados isn't carrying Dragon Dance, then it is also susceptible to Pokemon who set up, such Curse Snorlax or Calm Mind Jirachi. Depending on which threat is more pressing for your team, either a Nasty Plot mixed Infernape, for Skarmory, Cresselia, or Zapdos or a Choice Band Infernape, for Snorlax or Jirachi, is a solid offensive complement. Also, so long as the Snorlax does not have Earthquake, a Dragon Dance Tyranitar with Taunt is a beneficial teammate, as it will generally beat most of those and also remove Kingdra's Rain.</p>

    <p>This set is particularly vulernable to most Kingdra, and unfortunately most Pokemon that beat the other problematic Pokemon for this Gyarados do not enjoy switching into Kingdra. Empoleon, who can deal with nearly all Kingdra, Suicune with Roar, or Swampert with Roar, who can both also help against stat boosters, all help deal with this particular issue. It should be noted that while Empoleon and Suicune both add an additional Electric weakness, Swampert is immune to Electric and has the added bonus of resisting Rock-type attacks.</p>

    Alright, I didn't bother editing this section of the analysis because I feel its written with the wrong options in mind. Gyarados has become a staple on DPP stall teams, so Roar should definitely be the secondary option on the RestTalk set after Waterfall. Gyarados is a really great phazer, racking up residual damage and being quite bulky to be able to pull it off consistently. Thus, I feel some parts of this analysis need to be rewritten to reflect Roar as the secondary attack. As of now, you have it so that Stone Edge, Avalanche, or Dragon Dance are all great options, whereas Other Options would be more suitable for them. I can rewrite this sometime tomorrow/ later this week.

    [SET]
    name: BulkyGyara
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Taunt
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 156 HP / 108 Atk / 100 Def / 144 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Gyarados's typing and ability give it an advantage over many other Water-types. This set also attempts to use a slower, more defensive approach rather than the usual hard hitting, offensive strategy. The total EVs give 370 HP / 344 Atk / 219 Def / 234 Spe. 156 HP ensures that it never is 2HKOed by Timid Life Orb Heatran's Fire Blast with Stealth Rock and Leftovers taken into account. 108 Atk allows Gyarados to always 2HKO 252 Def / 148 HP Bold Blissey, factoring Stealth Rocks and Leftovers. 144 Spe is to outspeed Gengar after a Dragon Dance. The 100 leftover EVs in Def are necessary to tank hits from the likes of Lucario, Scizor, and Heracross. Taunt also differentiates this moveset from the others as it can prevent you from being phazed out or crippled by status.</p>

    <p>Unlike most Gyarados sets this takes on Skarmory fairly well. Without Intimidate Skarmory still isn't doing much with Drill Peck or Brave Bird and Taunt is still preventing Gyarados from being thwarted off by Whirlwind. Intimidate also helps this set-up as it weakens the damage from Drill Peck or Brave Bird, allowing you to Dragon Dance up. Stone Edge gives you the upper hand against waters such as Suicune and Milotic if they lack HP Electric and also crushes most Zapdos after a Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>While the offensive Gyarados prefers to be used during the late-game, this set can be used in any phase of the game. The use of Taunt is crucial to this set because many moves such as Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and other Taunt users ruin the normal strategy. Dragon Dance allows you to threaten your opponent in the early-game but is most useful in the late-game when its counters have been sufficiently weakened or have been induced with a status effect.</p>

    <p>Without an Ice or Ground move in addition to Waterfall and Stone Edge, this Gyarados is resisted completely by Breloom and Empoleon. Additionally, without both full EV investment into Attack and Life Orb, Gyarados will lose to Thunderbolt Weezing and ThunderPunch Dusknoir, barring a critical hit or excessive flinches from Waterfall. For these specific issues, a Natural Cure Pokemon that can take Electric attacks, such as Shaymin or Celebi, is an optimal partner, as it will easily take Breloom Spores and Weezing or Dusknoir Will-O-Wisps. Note that Tyranitar and Scizor are less optimal partners to be partnered with this Gyarados, because of the omnipresent threat of Breloom, Empoleon, and Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    <p>Because Taunt will generally force the opponent into using super effective Electric or Rock attacks, typing partnership becomes especially important. Hence, Breloom and Ground Pokemon, such as mixed Flygon or Dugtrio, are favorable partners. Breloom is especially useful if its Toxic Orb has already poisoned it, as it will be able to switch in without fear of Will-O-Wisp in case initially Taunting is too risky a choice.</p>

    Just edited wording again. "Screw around" didn't sound too proper lol.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 2: Ice Fang / Payback
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Although not as threatening as some of the sets listed above, the early available source of power gives this an advantage over most walls right off the bat. Removing Dragon Dance for a fourth move gives this perfect coverage against any switch-in. Waterfall is usually the best choice on this set; however, Aqua Tail can be used over Waterfall as the lack of Speed can justify the use of a more powerful, albeit less accurate move. Payback works over Ice Fang as the lower Speed can make a difference against threats such as Starmie and Celebi.</p>

    <p>Of the many physically defensive Pokemon in the standard metagame, only Forretress, Skarmory, Cresselia, Celebi, and physically bulky Water Pokemon, such as Suicune and Swampert, can switch-in to this set. And even though they aren't 2HKOed assuming maximum EV investment into HP and Defense, only Suicune can really comfortably switch-in with the omnipresent threat of entry hazards in the metagame, and even then it requires Hidden Power Electric to do significant damage. Instead of these Pokemon, however, what should be focused on specifically for this set are Pokemon that are more than capable of revenge killing Gyarados, such as Azelf, Jolteon, Gengar, Zapdos, and Salamence with Stone Edge. A Pokemon that can switch into all of these, barring Grass Knot Azelf, and immediately present a significant threat is Rock Polish Rhyperior, with Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Crunch as its primary moves. The common Pursuiters again make an optimal combination, though Tyranitar needs to be aware of Focus Blast from Gengar and Scizor needs to be aware of Hidden Power Fire from Gengar and Flamethrower from Azelf. Since this Gyarados needs to take special care with faster Pokemon with super effective attacks, luring these Pokemon in becomes even more important than usual for this set.</p>

    <p>Lucario tends to lure in Gengar, Zapdos, and Salamence, so an Agility Lucario with Crunch and Stone edge or Ice Punch would greatly assist Gyarados offensively, in addition to helping out defensively by resisting Rock. Fighting Pokemon in general tend to lure Gengar, Zapdos and Salamence in, if only to avoid significant damage from the initial Fighting move, so consider pairing this Gyarados with a Fighting Pokemon that has Stone Edge and using Stone Edge first turn as opposed to the obvious Fighting move. Since Salamence is also potentially a problem, carrying a Pokemon with higher than 328 Speed with an Ice move that can also take a Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Stone Edge is also advantageous. Some choices include Choice Scarf Jirachi with Ice Punch, Choice Scarf Metagross with Ice Punch, and Choice Scarf Heatran with Hidden Power Ice or Dragon Pulse. Note that these three can also switch-in the other common threats, barring a predicted Fire move for the first two or a predicted Fighting or Ground move for Heatran.</p>

    I've seen someone use Outrage on a CBGyara before. I don't know if its worth mentioning at all in the analysis, but it did do hefty damage on things like Suicune. Other than that possible mention, this section is solid.

    [SET]
    name: SubBounce
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Bounce
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Gyarados has received a much needed replacement to its previous physical STAB Hidden Power Flying back in ADV in the form of Bounce. Despite suffering from low PP, Bounce's respectable base power after benefiting from STAB, along with its 30% paralysis rate, makes it a great addition to Gyarados' movepool, and an even better one at that when paired with Waterfall's 20% flinch rate. Sadly it all comes with the price of being a 2 turn move, and thus Bounce is awfully susceptible to Protect stalling and because of its limited PP it will be to your advantage to avoid such encounters as much as possible. It is also worth mentioning that the Water + Flying-type combo is resisted only by Empoleon and Lanturn outside of Ubers, so type coverage will rarely be an issue.</p>

    <p>The given EVs allow for 332 HP, 383 Attack, and 261 Speed. 332 HP is divisible by 4 so you activate the pinch berry of your choice after your setting up your third Substitute. Max Attack is self-explanatory for a set such as this, where massive amounts of brute strength will undoubtedly come in handy. 261 Speed on the other hand allows Gyarados to outpace everything below neutral base 80s and, after a single Dragon Dance, outspeed all Pokemon who reside under base the 130 speed group.</p>

    <p>Liechi Berry is recommended for the power boost, but a Salac Berry should not be ignored, as the boost it grants in Speed allows Gyarados to keep up with all those Choice Scarf users going around. Due to the stallish nature of Substitute + Bounce, Leftovers can also be considered if one opts for a more defensive approach when setting up.</p>

    Yeah I might try this as well. Probably mention something about Magnezone here to combat the majority of priority users (with the two important ones being Scizor and Lucario, trapped by Maggy).


    [SET]
    name: Flail
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Flail
    item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Gyarados has the ability to easily switch into battle and force the opponent to switch out. This set takes advantage of both factors in order to set up. On the turn the opponent switches to its appropriate counter, Gyarados will use Substitute. Depending on the counter, Gyarados will either Dragon Dance or Substitute accordingly, and proceed to sweep with a huge advantage in Speed and Attack. It might seem like the ease by which this is done is being oversimplified; however, this cannot be farther from the truth. How does nearly every individual deal with Gyarados? By switching, which gives Gyarados the opportunity to set up its Substitute.</p>

    <p>For example, if the opponent switched in Starmie, Gyarados will Substitute down to Liechi activation and Dragon Dance on the final Substitute breaking turn, giving Gyarados +2 Attack, +1 Speed and a 200 BP move to easily OHKO Starmie with. However, if something like Celebi was switched in the turn Gyarados used Substitute, Gyarados will then Dragon Dance, and use Substitute if it feels a Thunder Wave / Leech Seed coming or Dragon Dance if a Grass Knot is coming. Depending on the amount of health left, Gyarados will then (probably) Substitute again for the Berry activation, and have +3 Attack, +2 Speed and 200 BP move to deal with the opposition.</p>

    <p>Liechi Berry or Salac Berry is purely a matter of preference in the end. It depends on whether having Gyarados outspeed Choice Scarf Gengar that switch in later or having the extra boost of Attack is preferred, mostly to OHKO threats like Celebi.</p>

    <p>Water and Normal are resisted only by Empoleon and Shedinja in the standard game. Since Pokemon like Suicune, Cresselia and Slowbro are beaten much easier with Stealth Rock in play, it is highly recommended that you consider entry hazard support, significant because it also removes Shedinja from the equation. This is especially relevant because after 1 Dragon Dance and the Liechi activation, Gyarados will do a minimum of 75% to Suicune with a maximum powered Flail. Since this set counts on being at around 1 HP for maximum utility, it is also highly recommended that you give this Rain support, as that will simultaneously boost Waterfall and prevent Sandstorm or Hail from fainting a 1 HP Gyarados. Since Empoleon and the weather inducers Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow are the main concerns for this set, anything that lures those four in is an effective teammate.</p>

    <p>Since Heatran lures in Empoleon and Tyranitar easily, you can run the Substitute and Life Orb Heatran with Earth Power to significantly damage both Pokemon. Hippowdon will frequently switch into Metagross, so running the mixed set with Grass Knot would be effective. Swampert will almost always lure in Abomasnow, so running Stone Edge Swampert should be seriously considered, as Swampert can also provide the beneficial Stealth Rock assistance. Dugtrio with help eliminate all of Empoleon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow, so consider running it, perhaps even with U-turn support from something that lures of them in, such as Celebi for Abomasnow or Crobat for Tyranitar and Empoleon.</p>


    Team options looked good upon reading, so didn't bother posting edits.
  18. Simon The Digger

    Simon The Digger

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    Perhaps you should mention specific Rapid Spin Pokemon who can team up well with Gyarados, as you only really made passing mention of the move. For example, Starmie would almost certainly not be optimal, due to sharing a major weakness, whereas a pokemon like Donphan (i know it's been made UU, bear with me) can both spin away Stealth Rock and set up its own. Otherwise, it looks good to me.
  19. Sprinkles

    Sprinkles

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    Can I write the team options for Gyarados?
  20. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
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    What do you mean write the team options? Aldaron has full team options already.
  21. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    This technically is being done by another person anyway. Closing unless someone disagrees.
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