Gyarados [4P]+

[cim]

I couldn't decide if this was a minor enough edit for the SCMS or not, so I thought I'd make a thread just to be safe.

• Changed the EVs. Less focus on killing obscure Blissey variants that you can just Taunt anyway, more focus on taking Scizor Quick Attacks and outrunning Starmie.
• Added Bounce. The paralysis chance is really useful, and this allows Gyarados to set up on Waters and Celebi a lot more easily. Bulky Gyarados beats Celebi one on one with Bounce. Also zapdos isn't really that common

[SET]
name: BulkyGyara
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Return / Bounce
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs: 156 HP / 72 Atk / 96 Def / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Bulky Gyarados aims to maximize the advantages of Gyarados's unique typing, respectable defenses, and Intimidate to set up on and kill a variety of threats, including many variants of Infernape, Heatran, Lucario, and Scizor. The EVs given balance out Gyarados's defensive and offensive capabilities. 156 HP ensures that Gyarados is never 2HKOed by Timid Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast, after SR and Leftovers. 96 EVs are placed in Defense to ensure that Scizor will never 2HKO Gyarados with a Choice Band Quick Attack after Sandstorm, SR, and Leftovers, helping ensure that Scizor cannot score a revenge kill. 184 Speed outruns Jolly Tyranitar before a Dragon Dance and +Speed Starmie and Azelf after a Dragon Dance. The remaining EVs are placed in Attack to increase damage against foes like Celebi.</p>

<p>Return does consistent damage to everything that resists Water, while enjoying 100% accuracy. It still sports excellent coverage as it's only resisted by Empoleon and the rare Shedinja. Bounce has some merit as an auxillary attack, for several reasons. First, it provides Gyarados with the best possible neutral coverage in two attacks, as only Empoleon and Lanturn resist the combination. It is also Gyarados's strongest attack against Bulky Waters, which Gyarados has no problems with if they lack Hidden Power Electric. The move is also very useful for buying an extra turn of Leftovers recovery, though this is pretty situational. Most importantly, it has a 30% chance of paralysis; this support can be extremely useful for most teams. Stone Edge can be used in this slot to better fend off Zapdos, but outside of Zapdos very few Pokémon are hit harder by it, and it has even worse accuracy than Bounce. Earthquake is also an axillary attack option, as it has consistent accuracy and does more damage to Lucario and Empoleon.</p>

<p>Unlike most Gyarados sets, this takes on Skarmory and Celebi fairly well. Even without Intimidate, Skarmory still isn't doing much with Drill Peck and Taunt prevents Gyarados from being thwarted off by Whirlwind. Intimidate also helps this set-up as it weakens the damage from Brave Bird. Celebi can only manage a Grass Knot at best, which does 34.86% - 41.35% to this Gyarados. This gives Gyarados the opportunity to Bounce, and when combined with the extra help of Leftovers on the Bounce turn, Grass Knot will not 2HKO even with Stealth Rock in play. Meanwhile, Bounce after one DD will do 71.29% - 84.65% to Celebi, enough damage to pick it off with Waterfall and kill Celebi weakened by Stealth Rock and any prior damage.</p>

<p>This set is significantly better, at least in the early game, without Stealth Rock on the field, more so than any other Gyarados set. Packing an anti Stealth Rock lead will serve Gyarados well. Choice Scarf Jirachi semi-reliably stops Aerodactyl, Azelf, and Mamoswine SR leads, making it a great partner for Bulky Gyarados. Its typing is also synergistic with Gyarados's, as Gyarados resists all of Jirachi's weaknesses. Other leads, such as Taunt / Stealth Rock Aerodactyl or Azelf, can accomplish the same task while supporting Gyarados with Stealth Rock. A Rapid Spinner can be useful but is not required; most Rapid Spinners share the common counter of Rotom with Gyarados, though.</p>

<p>Bulky Gyarados is a great lure for Electric and Rock attacks, as well as bulky status inducing counters. Gyarados can beat the latter with Taunt, but not the former, so packing Pokémon that can set up on Rock and Electric attacks is reccomended. Ground type attackers like Flygon and Dugtrio are ideal as they resist both. Electric type attacks can often be set up on by Jolteon or Electivire (the latter forming the infamous "GyaraVire" combo), and Rock attacks by Lucario or Metagross.</p>

 

[E.A.]

To be honest Chris, I like BulkyGyara and I really don't see why everyone is crazing over Bounce. If anything, I prefered Earthquake on Bulky Gyara, due to the fact that you can deal with Lucario.

It is also Gyarados's strongest attack against Bulky Waters, which Gyarados has no problems with if they lack Hidden Power Electric.

Vaporeon will really piss you off with Protect.

I still don't understand the craze about Bounce. I have no objections to it being added; it just should not be the only option.

 

[cim]

Vaporeon always has HP Electric anyway, so I figured it wasn't really an issue. I'll edit it in

Bulky Gyara deals with Lucario just fine with Waterfall in my experience, but most Lucario are Jolly Stone Edgers now anyway so yeah. Before Stone Edge was the only option, and it's really not that good. Earthquake is nice for hitting 100% of the time on bulky waters.

 

[iKitsune]

If anything, I prefered Earthquake on Bulky Gyara, due to the fact that you can deal with Lucario.

Are you sure you mean Lucario. For a start Lucario is hit neutral by both attacks secondly its really frail thirdly Gyarados counters it.

You should put EQ in comments.

If anything Stone Edge should be slashed you can hit everything neutral apart from Empoleon Breloom and Shedinja i think. It also allows you to beat Zappy. EQ notably allows you to hit jirachi and Magnezone thats about it though.

 

[Darkmalice]

Why is Stone Edge absent? It gives great synergy alongside Waterfall, but without Bounce's awful two-turn side effect. It helps for checking Salamence and other Gyara, and makes Zapdos think twice before switching in. It's definitely better than Earthquake (most Lucario don't run Stone Edge; looking at X-Act's statistics, the typical moveset is CC, Extremespeed, SD, and Crunch, and Ice Punch can replace any of those 4 moves. No mention of Stone Edge.)

 

[cim]

Why is Stone Edge absent? It gives great synergy alongside Waterfall,

You're going to have to explain to me what "giving synergy" is.

but without Bounce's awful two-turn side effect.

It's really not bad at all, especially with Dragon Dance to boost your speed and Attack. The only ways people can capitalize on it is if they have Protect or predict you using Bounce on the turn you go up.

It helps for checking Salamence and other Gyara

Other (read: faster) Gyarados will beat you one-on-one, even if you Intimidate them and they don't DD.

and makes Zapdos think twice before switching in.

Waterfall isn't exactly a party for Zapdos either, though it never OHKOs.

It's definitely better than Earthquake (most Lucario don't run Stone Edge; looking at X-Act's statistics, the typical moveset is CC, Extremespeed, SD, and Crunch, and Ice Punch can replace any of those 4 moves. No mention of Stone Edge.)

Look at the percentages thing. Either way more and more top battlers are using Stone Edge, it's enough to be worth considering on your average Lucario.

 

[Darkmalice]

You're going to have to explain to me what "giving synergy" is.

Neutral coverage with two attacks (Waterfall and Stone Edge). Only resisted by Breloom and Empoleon in OU. Waterfall + Earthquake is resisted by Breloom, Celebi, Dragonite, Gyarados, Latias and Salamence.

It's really not bad at all, especially with Dragon Dance to boost your speed and Attack. The only ways people can capitalize on it is if they have Protect or predict you using Bounce on the turn you go up.

I'm not trying to say that Bounce is bad. It just looks like it's negatives are overlooked. If it gets predicted upon, Gyarados will use Bounce as your opponent sends in Magnezone, Zapdos etc, and Gyarados is screwed. This is much more threatening than using Earthquake on an incoming Flying-type, or a miss with Stone Edge.

Other (read: faster) Gyarados will beat you one-on-one, even if you Intimidate them and they don't DD.

What if Gyarados switched into you? If you don't have Stone Edge, the other Gyarados would probably have the advantage. This is definitely true if you just have Waterfall and Earthquake.

Waterfall isn't exactly a party for Zapdos either, though it never OHKOs.

I sorta overlooked the Zapdos comment, though I would imagine Zapdos would happily switch into Edge-less Zapdos, unless your opponent had a better way to deal with Gyarados. Roost can always heal off Waterfall damage.

Look at the percentages thing. Either way more and more top battlers are using Stone Edge, it's enough to be worth considering on your average Lucario.

| Lucario | Move | Crunch | 51.2 |
| Lucario | Move | Ice Punch | 21.2 |
| Lucario | Move | Aura Sphere | 13.3 |
| Lucario | Move | Stone Edge | 11.6

I don't have any evidence against top battlers using Stone Edge, cause I rarely do OU battles these days. But the percentages thing (I'm assuming this is it) seems to say Stone Edge is used on <12% of Lucario.

 

[cim]

Neutral coverage with two attacks (Waterfall and Stone Edge). Only resisted by Breloom and Empoleon in OU. Waterfall + Earthquake is resisted by Breloom, Celebi, Dragonite, Gyarados, Latias and Salamence.

Ah. It is better than Earthquake (but worse than Bounce), but it has 80% accuracy, which if you're purely seeking neutral damage would make Bounce better.

I'm not trying to say that Bounce is bad. It just looks like it's negatives are overlooked. If it gets predicted upon, Gyarados will use Bounce as your opponent sends in Magnezone, Zapdos etc, and Gyarados is screwed. This is much more threatening than using Earthquake on an incoming Flying-type, or a miss with Stone Edge.

It's probably worth mentioning to be careful after the first time you use Bounce, but it's not very common for people to go "oh he's about to Bounce" until the move is used.

What if Gyarados switched into you? If you don't have Stone Edge, the other Gyarados would probably have the advantage. This is definitely true if you just have Waterfall and Earthquake.

It's actually worse for Bulky Gyarados at this point, as you're not faster unless you had your own DD (can't Taunt), and you're Intimidated. Considering Gyarados is risking being Taunted or paralyzed, it's not exactly free to set up on him.

I sorta overlooked the Zapdos comment, though I would imagine Zapdos would happily switch into Edge-less Zapdos, unless your opponent had a better way to deal with Gyarados. Roost can always heal off Waterfall damage.

If Gyarados has more than one DD, Waterfall will KO it. Zapdos is mentioned.

| Lucario | Move | Crunch | 51.2 |
| Lucario | Move | Ice Punch | 21.2 |
| Lucario | Move | Aura Sphere | 13.3 |
| Lucario | Move | Stone Edge | 11.6

I don't have any evidence against top battlers using Stone Edge, cause I rarely do OU battles these days. But the percentages thing (I'm assuming this is it) seems to say Stone Edge is used on <12% of Lucario.

That is a little less than I remember, but I don't see why "watch out for stone edge" is something one can't mention.

Wait, I don't even mention that Lucario runs SE in the set comments, why are you arguing with me? Don't derail the thread :(

 

[Darkmalice]

It's actually worse for Bulky Gyarados at this point, as you're not faster unless you had your own DD (can't Taunt), and you're Intimidated. Considering Gyarados is risking being Taunted or paralyzed, it's not exactly free to set up on him.

I should've said if your Gyara has one DD up, and an enemy Gyara comes in, you could beat it if you have Stone Edge, as you're now faster. Or if you don't have a DD up, and the enemy Gyara doesn't have Stone Edge. Anyways, it's seems to be getting a bit technical. Having Stone Edge isn't a guaranteed "beat other Gyara" thing, but it certainly makes it easier.

That is a little less than I remember, but I don't see why "watch out for stone edge" is something one can't mention.

Wait, I don't even mention that Lucario runs SE in the set comments, why are you arguing with me? Don't derail the thread :(

Without Stone Edge, Lucario can't hope to beat Gyara. Waterfall would be enough to deal with SE-less Lucario. But I agree that Gyara does need to watch out for SE.

If Gyarados has more than one DD, Waterfall will KO it. Zapdos is mentioned.

That's assuming Zapdos has 4 HP / min Def EVs, in which case Waterfall does 86.65 - 101.86%. Physically Defensive Zapdos takes 52.34 - 61.72% from +2 Waterfall. Actually, that same Zapdos only has a 15.38% of being OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge if SR is in play. So Zapdos would have to be damaged before. Any other Zapdos, however, will be OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge with SR support, but not by +1 Waterfall.


This discussion/argument/debate could go on forever. Could we just sash in Stone Edge after Earthquake (personally, I think it should go before Earthquake, but yeah, we're not really getting anywhere).

 

[cim]

I should've said if your Gyara has one DD up, and an enemy Gyara comes in, you could beat it if you have Stone Edge, as you're now faster. Or if you don't have a DD up, and the enemy Gyara doesn't have Stone Edge. Anyways, it's seems to be getting a bit technical. Having Stone Edge isn't a guaranteed "beat other Gyara" thing, but it certainly makes it easier.

That makes Stone Edge kind of useful for other Gyara and Zapdos, and that's it really. Also almost all other Gyarados run Stone Edge.

Without Stone Edge, Lucario can't hope to beat Gyara. Waterfall would be enough to deal with SE-less Lucario. But I agree that Gyara does need to watch out for SE.

I would like to emphasize, again, that nowhere in the set comments have I mentioned this. Why are you arguing about it?

That's assuming Zapdos has 4 HP / min Def EVs, in which case Waterfall does 86.65 - 101.86%. Physically Defensive Zapdos takes 52.34 - 61.72% from +2 Waterfall. Actually, that same Zapdos only has a 15.38% of being OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge if SR is in play. So Zapdos would have to be damaged before. Any other Zapdos, however, will be OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge with SR support, but not by +1 Waterfall.

You pretty much destroyed your own case for Stone Edge here.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, Stone Edge needs near Max Attack to OHKO Zapdos anyway, even after SR. I'm more interested in an explanation about the EV spread.

But for the secondary attack, Stone Edge / Earthquake / Bounce are all acceptable (Earthquake is actually the worst option...)

 

[Lee]

Vaporeon will really piss you off with Protect.

Not as much as you'll piss Vaporeon off with Taunt.

 

[Revolution.Z]

Bounce is generally a new move to gyara from Platinum. It really is a pretty good move to put on Gyara for the main reason if you go with EQ Or Stone Edge Celebi will wall and status you to death. Bounce +1 Can deal about 95% to a standard Celebi and EQ over Bounce to counter Lucarios is stupid.

Max Attack, NO LO, Waterfall = 67.02% - 78.72% To the standard lucario
Max Attack, NO LO, +1 Waterfall = 100.00% - 117.73%

Lucario is not a problem in front of Gyaras eyes. So Bounce and Waterfall Gives best coverage.

 

[Darkmalice]

I would like to emphasize, again, that nowhere in the set comments have I mentioned this. Why are you arguing about it?

Whether Stone Edge is in the comments or not is irrelevant. Gyarados will beat Lucario, regardless of whether Gyarados has Earthquake or not, unless Lucario has Stone Edge. You say Earthquake does more damage to Lucario than Waterfall. This is largely irrelevant. Lucario is only a threat with Stone Edge. Having Earthquake just for Lucario isn't a good idea. Looking at StrategyFocus' statistics, Waterfall will handle Lucario just fine.

The other Pokemon mentioned alongside Lucario is Empoleon. I wouldn't consider Earthquake over Stone Edge for the steel penguin. Empoleon isn't exactly common, and it doesn't have a comfortable time against a DD boosted Gyarados. Modest max SpA Empoleon deals 32.7% max with Ice Beam, assuming no item boost. Not even a 3HKO. Gyara's +1 Waterfall deals 37.82% damage to 12 HP / 12 Def Empoleon. Not a 3HKO either thanks to Leftovers. But Gyara is faster. So Agility SubPetaya Empoleon has no business swapping into Gyara, nor will it be able to stop a Gyara sweep. The only reason for Earthquake is to enable Gyara to switch in on Empoleon. But Gyara can already switch in on a large variety of Pokemon.

You pretty much destroyed your own case for Stone Edge here.

I hate giving inaccurate information. I felt it was important to mention that physically defensive Zapdos isn't usually OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge.

However, +1 Stone Edge will always OHKO Zapdos if SR is in play unless the Zapdos runs max HP and near max Def. Using the April Statistics:
| Zapdos | Defense EV | None | 51.2 |
| Zapdos | Defense EV | Very High (200+) | 32.6 |
| Zapdos | Defense EV | Other (4) | < 5.5

Most Zapdos will be OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge (and that's assuming all the 200+ Def Zapdos have max HP).

In short, Stone Edge > Earthquake.

 

[Lee]

Electric type attacks can often be set up on by Jolteon or Electivire (the latter forming the infamous "GyaraVire" combo), and Rock attacks by Lucario, Heracross, or Metagross.

Heracross doesn't resist Rock.

 

[RaikouLover]

(and that's assuming all the 200+ Def Zapdos have max HP).

They all do... if anything your making a case to use Stone Edge AND max attack EVs because if not your leading Gyarados users down the wrong path by saying it will OHKO Zapdos.. Bounce is actually a very good option on Bulky Gyarados simply for the extra Leftovers recovery and secondary STAB.

Originally Posted by darknessmalice
If it gets predicted upon, Gyarados will use Bounce as your opponent sends in Magnezone, Zapdos etc, and Gyarados is screwed.

Never happens. EVER.

 

[cim]

Bounce is generally a new move to gyara from Platinum. It really is a pretty good move to put on Gyara for the main reason if you go with EQ Or Stone Edge Celebi will wall and status you to death. Bounce +1 Can deal about 95% to a standard Celebi and EQ over Bounce to counter Lucarios is stupid.

Max Attack, NO LO, Waterfall = 67.02% - 78.72% To the standard lucario
Max Attack, NO LO, +1 Waterfall = 100.00% - 117.73%

Lucario is not a problem in front of Gyaras eyes. So Bounce and Waterfall Gives best coverage.

I really appreciate you trying to help, but you're arguing with damage calcs that have nothing to do with this particular set. (This set doesn't even run close to max attack)

Thanks Lee for catching that Heracross bit.

I also can't tell you how many times I've been within 2-3% of being 2HKOed, used Bounce, and then saved my Gyarados's life... or parahaxed the opponent on my way out. :)

 

[iKitsune]

Please get rid of EQ it provides shocking coverage when paired with Waterfall. Being walled by Salamence and Latias is basically a joke and not being able to hit celebi neutral is too.

 

[Mrobinson587]

Return anyone? Accurate, fairly powerful and great neutral coverage and drawback free. I've tried using it with this moveset (not the EV's) and it gives more consistent sweeps than just stone edge or EQ.

 

[cim]

I made Earthquake a slash? Hmm.

I don't know so much about Return other than the Set Comments. Bounce is more powerful and paralyzes.

 

[Mrobinson587]

I made Earthquake a slash? Hmm.

I don't know so much about Return other than the Set Comments. Bounce is more powerful and paralyzes.

... but takes 2 turns and has accuracy and PP issues like stone edge does. This argument keeps going in circles. Once you have a couple dragon dances which is quite feasible with taunt, I would rather kill something out right than attempt a stall that can be abused and pray I don't miss. I would personally rather deal with Celebii with the rest of my team

Tell you what. I'll give bounce some more testing if you try Return. It really works great.

 

[cim]

Yeah, except you're not stalling for more than like one turn or so with a Gyarados that has no recovery move. The point of the set is to take hits, kill something, and provide support... I'll slash Return but Bounce is better.

 

[RaikouLover]

Return and Bounce are both good... don't dismiss Return at all as a secondary option, since it far and away the most consistent secondary option Gyarados has for a set like this. Therefore, this statement is inaccurate:

First, it provides Gyarados with the best possible neutral coverage in two attacks, as only Empoleon and Lanturn resist the combination.

Water / Normal is only resisted by Empoleon and Shedinja, so it is better technically since Shedinja is never seen in OU play.

HOWEVER! Stone Edge is more important than both IMO, because with out it, you can't pick off weakened Zapdos.. and more importantly, other Gyarados will take advantage of you.. Salamence can intimidate you, survive a bounce / Return and Draco Meteor the shit out of you also. With Stone Edge you get a solid hit on both that usually puts them near or completely out of comission.

 

[cim]

Neither is Lanturn. They are roughly equally common.

Other Gyarados you need to predict as a +0 Stone Edge won't finish them, and their Stone Edge finishes you. Salamence can be pretty gay, though, as can Zapdos, but I didn't really like the accuracy on everything else in OU that much. I'll edit it.

 

[panamaxis]

I agree with RaikouLovers last paragraph; Stone Edge is much better than return.

Also, would it be worth mentioning how Bounce can be a double-edged sword? eg. You have 2 DD's under your belt and are in vs celebi, you bounce as they switch to zapdos and then gyarados loses.