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Gyarados (Bulky Support) [QC 3/3] (GP 3/3)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Harsha, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    I was looking through Gyarados's analysis and I felt as though something was missing. Then it hit me; I couldn't find a mention of Thunder Wave anywhere! I quickly dug out this team by IronBullet93 from the RMT Archive and decided to post this set.

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Status: Copyediting
    QC Approvals: Pocket, PK Gaming, AccidentalGreed
    GP Approvals: November Blue, Trollfreak, sirndipt
    -------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Rawr.

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Support
    move 1: Thunder Wave
    move 2: Dragon Tail
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Gyarados is often seen running offensive sets, it's quite capable of running a defensive set due to its Intimidate ability and bulk. Gyarados is able to check a vast majority of physically-based sweepers in the BW OU metagame such as Gliscor, Landorus, Lucario, Scrafty, Mamoswine, Infernape, and even more Pokemon due to its relatively unique Water / Flying typing and good defensive stats. Intimidate helps Gyarados sponge hits, and it usually forces switches against physical sweepers. Even when uninvested, Gyarados's Waterfall still does a good amount of damage to said threats. Additionally, Gyarados can cripple threats with Thunder Wave, rendering them useless later on in the game. While Ground-types are immune to Thunder Wave, no one would dare switch a Ground-type in on Gyarados, thanks to its Water-type STAB. With Dragon Tail, Gyarados gains a phazing move—a way to force out threatening sweepers with boosts—as well as another attacking option. Taunt ruins common switches such as Ferrothorn and Jellicent, as they lose the ability to paralyze or burn with Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, respectively.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>While Thunder Wave is helpful, it won't be of much use for teams packing Toxic Spikes, or teams that try to use a different status to neuter the opponent. This allows Gyarados to run a move such as Stone Edge, Avalanche, or Earthquake to patch up weaknesses to Flying-, Dragon-, Poison-, and Steel-types effectively. Additionally, Roar can be considered over Dragon Tail because it has better accuracy, though it won't help Gyarados phaze Espeon or Xatu. However, one should note that Espeon will be decimated by Waterfall anyways, so Roar remains an option. Roar does help Gyarados phaze through opposing Substitutes though, so one should consider it before slapping on Dragon Tail. The EVs are structured to give Gyarados the maximum amount of switches into Stealth Rock while retaining great physical bulk.</p>

    <p>Politoed is simply the best Gyarados partner because not only does it enhance Gyarados's Water-type STAB move, it cancels out sandstorm. Sandstorm damage negates the recovery from Leftovers, and Gyarados appreciates all the HP it can get due to its lack of reliable recovery. However, note that Waterfall ruins Tyranitar's day. Celebi is a good counter to this set because it can absorb status due to Natural Cure, and doesn't take too much damage from Waterfall. If the opponent has only one Pokemon remaining, and it's immune to status and resists Waterfall (e.g. Bulk Up Breloom), it will give Gyarados a headache because it cannot be phazed out. While Gastrodon does not enjoy taking a Dragon Tail, it is immune to both Thunder Wave and Waterfall. Taunt can prevent Gastrodon from hurting other Pokemon on one's team, but Gastrodon remains a reliable check to this set should it not run an extra coverage move over Thunder Wave. While Rotom-W can be paralyzed, it does not take much damage from any of the moves on this set. Ferrothorn does not take much from any of Gyarados's attacks and is not affected by Thunder Wave much; however, it also possesses the ability to hurt Gyarados every time Gyarados attacks it. Tangrowth can tank hits due to its great bulk, and will likely be problematic as well. Breloom is able to handily take on both Gastrodon and Rotom-W, making it a good partner to Gyarados. Choice Specs Tornadus makes a good partner to this set in rain because it beats bulky Grass-types.</p>

    <p>Good teammates for this set include entry hazard users because they make Gyarados's phazing do more damage. Celebi is a great partner for its ability to take out bulky Water-types, great checks to Gyarados. Jirachi is yet another great partner because of the good synergy it has with Gyarados. To illustrate, Jirachi is resistant to Choice Terrakion's Stone Edge, and Gyarados is resistant to the same Pokemon's Close Combat. Jirachi's Wish support and Gyarados's Intimidate make the two a surprisingly good defensive core. One should always play bulky support Gyarados with a Rapid Spin user so that Stealth Rock does not hamper its ability to check threats; one wants Gyarados to be as healthy as possible throughout the match to effectively take down physically based behemoths.</p>
  2. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
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    I think you should slash Roar with Dragon Tail and list the advantages / disadvantages between to two. Roar is viable as Waterfall is a pretty reliable attack so it's not like this set is taunt bait. Waterfall can also be used to hit Espeon, one of the main reasons to use Dragon Tail.

    Oh and mention para-flinching with Thunder Wave + Waterfall
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Thanks, I updated with those changes!
  4. Fizz

    Fizz

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    What does this set have over Dragonite, who has Roost and Multiscale? I'm not saying it's outclassed; I'm simply unsure.

    Edit: as well as getting STAB on Dragon Tail.

    Edit2: I guess what I'm trying to say is even if Dragonite doesn't make this set look like an utter chump, you would still do well to differentiate the two. State what it has over DNite.
  5. Mynism

    Mynism

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    Ice and Dragon neutrality. Believe me, it's useful
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, Ice and Dragon neutrality makes Gyarados a very handy check and even counter to physical Ground-, Fighting-, and Dragon-type sweepers, such as Gliscor, Mamoswine, Landorus, Mienshao, Lucario, Infernape, Conkeldurr (w/o Stone Edge), Scrafty, DDNite, DDHaxorus, and SD Scizor. It is also hard to come by a Ground / Fighting-type counter that can also check Volcarona. I am surprised that this set was not on-site already :o

    I would remove Substitute on that set. Taunt has MUCH MORE utility, and Gyarados needs its bulk intact to tank threats outlined above. Moves such as Stone-Edge, Avalanche, and Earthquake could come in handy when dealing with Volcarona, Dragons, and Toxicroak, respectively (among other uses), so they at least deserve an AC mention as alternatives over Thunder Wave, which is the most dispensable support move, imo. I would reduce the emphasis on paralysis on this set, and stress its ability to check a large amount of threats pertinent to the OU metagame, thanks to its unique typing, bulk, and Intimidate instead.

    I would just re-name this set as Bulky Support or Defensive Support, since this Gyarados is essentially meant to be a great defensive pivot with many utilities that arise from its typing, bulk, Intimidate, Dragon Tail, Taunt, (and T-Wave), combined with usable offense.

    As for Teammates and Counters:
    • Mention Ferrothorn for Iron Barbs hurting Gyarados when it Waterfalls / DTail, as well as inflicting decent damage from a STAB Power Whip
    • Tangrowth is also annoying, due to its massive physical bulk combined with Regeneration healing off residual / DTail damage.
    • Remove the mention of Water Absorb Quagsire
    • Mention how Politoed not only boosts Waterfall's power, but also clears away sandstorm that prevents precious leftovers recovery.
    • Bulky Water-types in general gives Gyarados problems, since they can take any hit from Gyarados, and status it. Other than Gastrodon, Jellicent, Vaporeon, Slowbro, and Politoed are all annoying to deal with.
    • For this reason, bulky Grass-types, such as Celebi, is a great partner to sponge Electric and status moves, while dealing hefty damage to Water-types and Ferrothorn in return.
    • Breloom is particularly good, since it can more readily deal with Volt-Turn combinations, to which teams with Gyarados as a defensive core are vulnerable.
    • Mention Jirachi as a great defensive partner to Gyarados. With the threat of paralysis / phaze, Gyarados baits physical dragons to Outrage, which Jirachi sponges with ease after Gyarados's Intimidate nullifying their Dragon Dance. Jirachi could then paralyze the Dragons without their Lum Berry and begin to para-flinch. Jirachi also takes Stone Edges that are directed towards Gyarados with ease. Most importantly, Jirachi effectively passes sizable Wishes to heal Gyarados, the latter easily switching into Ground / Fire moves aimed at Jirachi. Gyarados & Jirachi together does a good job covering for CB Terrakion as well.
  7. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Thanks for the help, Pocket! Fixed the OP. And yea, I'm surprised this wasn't on-site as well
  8. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

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    I think Jolteon deserves a mention in "Teammates & Counters", since it can absorb Electric-type moves directed towards Gyarados. I think this set is pretty cool.
  9. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Life is like a hurricane
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    While I personally think this set deserves an analysis, this set has already been rejected before.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Perhaps you should also mention Roserade in the Checks & Counters section. It takes everything easily, while hitting very hard with Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb and getting rid of the paralyze on the switch.
  11. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    That's weird. I think IB93 demonstrated that it can work well, and it's better at walling than the RestTalk set. I dunno, I guess we'll see.

    That can be done. Thanks!
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, it was rejected for needing too much support (aka Rapid Spin & Wish support), making the RestTalk set supposedly a better set. I disagree, since Taunt, THunder Wave, or the extra coverage move does make this Gyarados a lot more threatening, while RestTalk Gyarados is prone to screw up once it goes to bed, Sleep Talking wrong moves, etc. Being able to fill Gyarados's HP bar when necessary is an appealing advantage RestTalk has over this set, as well as +0 priority Dragon Tail, but I am not convinced that RestTalk totally outclasses it. I can certainly think of many instances where the lack of Taunt or Thunder Wave fucking me over when I used a defensive Gyarados.

    I haven't actually used the RestTalk set, though, so it may be worthwhile to test it out. I doubt my opinion would change though, since they offer slightly different perks to the table.

    Also, harsha, please mention how the combination of its unique Water / Flying typing, good defensive stats, and Intimidate allows it to check or cripple many physical sweepers and Fire-types, including Gliscor, Mamoswine, Landorus, Lucario, Scrafty, Toxicroak, Conkeldurr (w/o Stone Edge), Infernape, Volcarona, SD Scizor, Gyarados, and DDNite.
  13. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Oh thanks. I'll add that in. Also, I hate how you have to rely on luck with RestTalk, while this thing allows you to check the many physical beasts around OU and annoy them.
  14. Danilo

    Danilo
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    This set was already rejected by QC when i tried to get it through. I still think that this set is really good, but you're going to have to argue why this set is better than the Rest/Talk Set because this set cant continue to switch into to resisted hits, due to the Stealth Rock weakness. Additionally, this set is much more dependent on Rapid Spin support, than the Rest/Talk set.
  15. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    A few things about the RestTalk set. One, it sucks that you have to rely on luck to pHaze, while your opponent may be able to kill you during that time. Also, it cannot recover while it's asleep, leaving it prone to getting its health whittled down. The RestTalk set also cannot paralyze foes when necessary, and it is really quite unreliable when it comes to recovery. You'll have dead weight if you choose to switch Gyarados out while it's asleep; however, you cannot rely heavily upon it when switching in. One can say that Rapid Spin support is necessary; that's not a stretch. However, look at all the other Pokemon who depend on Rapid Spin. Gyarados effectively walls nearly every major physical threat, and it tanks Stone Edges from all of them. Honestly, I don't see how RestTalk outclasses this.

    That's basically my argument to what previously happened, Sir. I hope this is convincing enough. I hate RestTalk sets because you cannot rely on them as much as this.
  16. Danilo

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    Gyarados doesnt wall every physical threat. What about Terrakion and Sub Landorus in the sand?
  17. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    I said "nearly every major physical threat." Of course, there are going to be threats that are too big to overcome, though it should be noted that no one in the right mind is going to switch those two in onto Gyarados, though Gyarados cannot obviously switch in to them.
  18. Entere

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    You mention Earthquake twice in Additional Options, contradicting yourself. I think you might mean in the first, replacing Waterfall, and in the second, replacing something else. Anyways, I think it's a good set, and usually when I think about Gyarados, this set always comes to my head. Glad you put it up.
  19. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Yeah, that's what happened. Thanks for bringing it up. And I'm glad you like it!

    It was replacing Waterfall (bad) and Thunder Wave (acceptable), by the way. I'll fix it.
  20. pie cream

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    Id don't know if i'm allowed to do this ( a mod can delete my post if so) but bloo said somthing about this in the last thread.

    quoted from bloo:
    1. To check the threats you mention in the OP, Gyarados needs both Rapid Spin support and Wish support if it wants to stick around long enough to check said threats. The ResTalk variant of Gyarados is much more independent in that it can replenish its health and stick around much longer without needing so much support.
    2. Taunt is cool and all, but really, when you Taunt Ferrothorn, it's just going to Power Whip you to wear you down, and if you switch out, you're going to suffer SR damage. If you Taunt Jellicent, you risk the threat of a Scald burn. If you Taunt Chansey, it will Seismic Toss to wear you down, etc. Taunt is more effective on bulky DD Gyarados since it can boost its Attack and Speed.
    I don't think this deserves an entire analysis of its own. Instead, perhaps we can give some mention of this Gyarados variant in its on-site analysis (Thunder Wave is already mentioned in the on-site analysis, but we can also add how Thunder Wave can be used alongside Taunt, Dragon Tail, and whatever).

    Again im sorry if bloo / other mods don't like me doing this but I hope this helps.
  21. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Err, Thunder Wave is not on any of the on-site sets. Also, it does not require Wish support to be successful; I use it without Wish all the time. Basically, I addressed what he said in my above comments (I looked at that analysis and judged what I needed to explain).
  22. Danilo

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    This set literally needs Wish support. Like, it NEEDS Wish support. Like, this set really relies on Wish support, and Rapid Spin support. Saying that it doesn't need Wish support, is silly.
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Stress that Rain support not only boosts Gyarados's Waterfall, but equally important, also clears away potential sandstorm that prevents precious leftovers recovery to maximize Gyarados's defensive capabilities.

    Other than that, this gets a nod from me! The many utilities that this set provides is too good to be ignored!

    QC Approved (1/3)
  24. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Thanks Pocket! Also, may I say that IB93 peaked very high on the ladder with this exact set and no Wish support? I mean, it's not necessary. However, Rapid Spin support is important because you want to be able to check to the best of your ability.
  25. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Well, everyone is on a QC spree, so I'm gonna bump this if that's ok.

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