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Gyarados (BW2 Update) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Jukain, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    just got asek's stuff for now :)
    [​IMG]
    he who bounces from the sky

    [Overview]

    <p>Gyarados is easily one of the most threatening sweepers in the OU tier. While it hasn't changed much from DPP, nothing needed to be changed; Gyarados is still a monster. It has two STABs with great coverage and above-average stats across the board, in addition to two stellar abilities in Intimidate and Moxie. Gyarados is most commonly seen sporting a bulky Dragon Dance sweeper set, allowing it to set up on and tear apart many Pokemon. On the flip side, Gyarados can also run a more defensive RestTalk set aiming to utilize Gyarados's numerous resistances and the immense physical bulk granted by Intimidate. Gyarados can even utilize rain perfectly with its terrifying double-STAB Waterfalls. Unfortunately, the popularity of Electric-type attackers in general makes Gyarados's life difficult. Additionally, Gyarados has rather lackluster initial Speed, meaning it can be forced out easily, a problem that is compounded by its Stealth Rock weakness. Gyarados can also still be outsped and OHKOed by many Choice Scarf users after a Dragon Dance. However, physical Water-type attackers are a rare commodity, in OU at least, making Gyarados a tough competitor in today's metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Substitute / Taunt
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Bounce
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 88 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 168 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Gyarados's bread-and-butter set this generation, being able to set up on a multitude of Pokemon. Dragon Dance is just an amazing move for Gyarados, boosting its Attack to ungodly high levels and patching up its underwhelming Speed. Gyarados also has an amazing Water / Flying typing, which distinguishes it from other Dragon Dance users. It provides resistances to common Fighting-type attacks (such as Mach Punch and Close Combat), Fire-type attacks, Bullet Punch, and U-turn, as well as an immunity to Ground. With Intimidate, Gyarados can even take attacks such as Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, and Crunch. The most common variant of this set runs Substitute, which makes setting up much easier. With Substitute, Gyarados can avoid status, revenge killers, and Volt Switches. In a metagame full of those three things, Substitute makes it much less of a burden to set up. All walls that don't carry phazing moves are going to be in trouble against Gyarados. Terrakion will not be able to revenge kill Gyarados lest it be KOed by Waterfall (the same with other revenge killers). The other, less common variant runs Taunt, which is geared specifically toward walls. Taunt renders walls unable to phaze, recover health, or use a status move or Perish Song. It is essential if you wish to beat Skarmory or Hippowdon with Gyarados, as both can take a +1 Waterfall and phaze Gyarados out. Additionally, it allows Gyarados to beat Perish Song Celebi paired with a Steel-type to take a Bounce, one of the most common cores used to handle Gyarados.</p>

    <p>As for the moves, Gyarados's STABs generally provide enough coverage. Waterfall, especially with a rain boost, can put heavy dents in any Pokemon unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of it. Bounce has nice coverage with Waterfall, most notably hitting bulky Water-types, and ensures Gyarados's Substitute isn't broken while it attacks, only faltering against Thunder in rain while Gyarados is in the air.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs allow Gyarados to outrun Jolteon at +1 and prevent Jirachi and burned Ferrothorn from breaking a Substitute with Body Slam and Power Whip, respectively. In order to burn Ferrothorn, partners that carry Will-O-Wisp, such as Rotom-W, Gengar, Mew, Heatran, and Sableye, are recommended. Sableye in particular makes a good partner, as it can take advantage of its priority Will-O-Wisp to cripple foes such as Terrakion and Toxicroak. The HP number achieved increases the healing received from Leftovers. The remaining EVs are pumped into Attack for more power. Waterfall is obviously irreplaceable on this set, but Bounce isn't. Stone Edge can be used to hit Rotom-W, opposing Gyarados, and Dragonite harder, in addition to being more reliable against Substitute Kyurem-B, but Bounce is generally more useful. The ability choice is one of vital importance. Intimidate allows Gyarados to reduce the power of its foes upon switching in, allowing for easier setup and better match-ups against Pokemon such as Scizor, while Moxie boosts Gyarados's Attack with each kill, making it much more potent offensively. The choice really depends on whether you want a more offensive or defensive Gyarados. Do note, however, that Intimidate ensures Substitutes can't be broken by attacks such as lead Mamoswine's Ice Shard and Choice Scarf Jirachi's Ice Punch.</p>

    <p>The biggest threats to Gyarados are Perish Song Celebi, Substitute Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, and defensive Politoed, so Gyarados's teammates should be able to handle these Pokemon. Politoed is almost mandatory because the rain it brings boosts the power of Waterfall, which allows Gyarados to 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO 252 HP Jirachi, Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Garchomp, and Magnezone with a boost. Skarmory can also be a bit of a pain for Gyarados; Choice Specs Politoed can OHKO with Surf. Jolteon and Thundurus-T, while having to take a risk to do so, can absorb Electric-type attacks aimed at Gyarados, while Gyarados can switch in on Ground-type attacks aimed at the former. Both can dispatch Perish Song Politoed with ease, and Jolteon can even pass Gyarados a Substitute. To deal with Ferrothorn and Skarmory, Magnezone makes a great partner, as does Choice Specs Gothitelle. Gothitelle can also handle Choice Scarf Terrakion, Celebi, and Politoed. Terrakion is a good choice for Kyurem-B, while the aforementioned Gothitelle does well against Celebi. Scizor and Tyranitar are also good choices to handle Celebi. Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Latias, and Latios are recommended to deal with Toxicroak. Finally, Rapid Spin support is appreciated, as having Stealth Rock off the field allows Gyarados to switch in with much greater ease. Starmie is the best choice for a spinner, as it can deal heavy damage to bulky Water-types and Skarmory.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Bounce
    move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This Gyarados tosses aside easier setup for greatly increased offensive potential. After just one Dragon Dance, Gyarados can outspeed pretty much the entire unboosted OU tier. After a boost, Gyarados is nigh-impossible to wall, allowing it to soften up the opponent's team to the point where another Pokemon can sweep. When you factor in the sheer power of this set, it needs much less support than other sets. You won't have any issue getting Gyarados in either due to the many Close Combats present in the tier. With Gyarados's Attack sky-high after just one boost, it can just start attacking. It has no trouble punching massive holes early- to mid-game.</p>

    <p>Naturally, Waterfall is the main move, ripping apart pretty much every Pokemon in the tier with rain and Dragon Dance boosts. Bounce is of course Gyarados's other STAB move, hitting Grass-types that resist Waterfall, such as Celebi, hard, as well as dealing heavy damage to all common Dragon-types. Without having to mess with a non-attacking move to set up, Gyarados also has room for a coverage move. Stone Edge hits Kyurem-B, Rotom-W, and Dragonite for heavy damage, while Earthquake hits Magnezone, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Jirachi, and Heatran, which is especially useful in sun.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>There are important distinctions between the two nature choices on this set; while Jolly allows Gyarados to outrun Jolteon and Choice Scarf Politoed at +1 and Jolly Mamoswine without a boost, Adamant gives a noticeable power buff. Jolly also makes Gyarados much faster unboosted, but the loss in power is significant against foes such as Ferrothorn as well as for hole-punching. Because Gyarados can boost past the threats Jolly is needed to outspeed, Adamant is usually preferred, but it's your preference. For the item, Life Orb is usually best, boosting Gyarados's power even higher, which is what this set is all about. However, Lum Berry helps immensely against status users such as Ferrothorn and Jirachi and lets Gyarados avoid an untimely Scald burn. Double-Edge is a viable coverage option for Rotom-W and Dragon-types (most notably Substitute Kyurem-B). It also has amazing neutral coverage; the same is true of Return if you don't want the recoil, though it loses out against Kyurem-B. Finally, Intimidate can be used over Moxie to aid in setting up, but it really just gets away from the whole point of this set: power. The only reason to use it is because Double-Edge is unfortunately illegal with Moxie.</p>

    <p>Rain support helps Gyarados get certain OHKOs after a boost, so Politoed is appreciated as a partner, but it is not obligatory, as this set still has enough power without rain. Rapid Spin support is essential with Life Orb, as Stealth Rock damage piled on with Life Orb recoil means Gyarados dies too quickly. Starmie and Tentacruel are good options because they can deal with many of Gyarados's checks and counters, such as Skarmory. Suicide leads that carry Taunt, such as Terrakion, Skarmory, and Mew, also work to prevent Stealth Rock. Moving on, Gyarados has a lot of trouble against revenge killers without Substitute. Latios, Terrakion, and Salamence can all outrun Gyarados, even if it has a +1 boost. Scizor can utilize its powerful Bullet Punch to deal with most revenge killers. Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi and Swords Dance Scizor are Pokemon that can take advantage of weak Choice Scarf users and set up. Ferrothorn and Jellicent are difficult for Gyarados to get past, so Magnezone and Nasty Plot Celebi with Hidden Power Fire are good partners.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Ice Fang
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Gyarados is no doubt a deadly sweeper, it can also function as an effective revenge killer. With a Choice Scarf attached, Gyarados can outrun many notable threats, just barely outpacing +1 Adamant Dragonite and having enough bulk to tank boosted priority moves, such as Breloom's Mach Punch. Even better, thanks to Moxie, Gyarados can function as a late-game cleaner à la Choice Scarf Salamence. Rain-boosted Waterfall and Moxie are Gyarados's main advantages over other Choice Scarf users. The other moves are for rather specific targets. Ice Fang is the best move Gyarados has to hit Dragon-types, such as Dragonite, Salamence, Latias, and Latios. Stone Edge hits Volcarona and Kyurem-B hard; it is necessary for the former under sun and doesn't carry the risk of activating Flame Body. Finally, Earthquake does solid damage to Tentacruel and Toxicroak.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Adamant is almost always the preferred nature; the only time Jolly is useful is on rain teams that have trouble against Jolteon. A move worth consideration is Outrage. Outrage can OHKO Latias after Stealth Rock damage, which is a feat Ice Fang simply can't manage. Unfortunately, it has a rather nasty lock-in side effect that pretty much ensures Gyarados will die the next turn.</p>

    <p>Rain support is non-negotiable with this set, as otherwise Gyarados is completely outclassed by Salamence. Rapid Spin support is another requirement because it ensures Gyarados can switch in and out freely. Starmie is the best choice, as it can hit bulky Water-types for good damage and soften up opponents to set the stage for Gyarados. After taking Hydro Pumps from Starmie, the opponent will often be ill-equipped to handle Gyarados. Other options include Tentacruel, which can Toxic bulky Water-types, and Forretress, which can set up entry hazards and take physical hits well. Unfortunately, the former has a hard time against spinblockers. It is important to note that Gyarados isn't an amazing revenge killer; it's best used to sweep late-game. Therefore, you probably shouldn't use Gyarados as your sole Choice Scarf user. In any case, bulky Water-types, Ferrothorn, Latias, Kyurem-B, and Celebi are perfect stops for this set. Your own Celebi can take care of bulky Water-types, while Scizor can deal with Ferrothorn, Latias, Kyurem-B, and Celebi, as well as use Bullet Punch to help Gyarados with its revenge killing duties.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Roar / Dragon Tail
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Although it is an effective attacker, Gyarados can also perform well with a defensive set. With solid bulk, a great typing, and Intimidate, Gyarados has all the tools it needs to be a good bulky Water-type. However, Gyarados is a bit different from your usual bulky Water-type, as it doesn't have reliable recovery. On the bright side, resistances to Fighting, Bug, and Steel, as well as an immunity to Ground make Gyarados a stellar pivot. Consequentially, Gyarados is also a perfect counter to Scizor, Mamoswine, and Volcarona outside of sun. In order to be healthy enough to deal with these threats, Gyarados unfortunately must rely on RestTalk, which is a rather shaky combination, especially with this generation's sleep mechanics. On the other hand, it does make Gyarados much more sturdy. Just be sure to avoid resting while foes such as Jolteon are still alive, as Gyarados hates being forced out while asleep. Waterfall provides Gyarados with a reliable attacking move. The last slot gives Gyarados a phazing move, which helps against setup sweepers and allows Gyarados to spread entry hazard damage. Roar is 100% accurate and can hit through Substitute, while Dragon Tail isn't affected by Taunt and can hit Magic Bounce users, which is helpful for teams that struggle against Baton Pass chains.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As Gyarados is meant to challenge physical attackers, its EVs make it as physically bulky as possible. While Gyarados should usually run Rest and Sleep Talk, this scenario is different if a good Wish passer and Rapid Spin user are paired with it. If that is the case, RestTalk should be replaced with Taunt and Thunder Wave. The former helps against defensive Pokemon, while the latter can cripple offensive Pokemon. However, in order to run those, you again need to have a Wish passer and Rapid Spin user. For the Wish passer, Jirachi is best used because of its great defensive synergy with Gyarados, particularly helping against Kyurem-B; Terrakion and Scizor also work for that purpose. For the Rapid Spin user, Forretress is best, as it can take the Outrages that Gyarados cannot. A Pokemon that can trap Ghost-types, such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Gothitelle, is useful to ensure Forretress can spin. Additionally, Heal Bell Celebi makes a great partner, as it counters Thundurus-T and other Electric-types that threaten Gyarados. Heal Bell can also wake up Gyarados if it is sleeping, which is helpful. Finally, Ferrothorn can set up entry hazards and take Electric- and Rock-type attacks, making it a good partner.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 2: Double Edge
    move 3: Ice Fang / Stone Edge
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set sacrifices the ability to sweep for raw power right off the bat. With a Choice Band and Intimidate, Gyarados makes for an amazing offensive pivot. This is no surprise combined with Gyarados's Fighting and Water resistances and Ground immunity. Most importantly, Gyarados can switch into threats such as Volcarona, Mamoswine, and special Landorus. Once it is in, Gyarados can hit the foe with a powerful attack. It plays as a sort of hit-and-run, all-purpose attacker; the best term here is "hard-hitting tank." Gyarados's rain-boosted Waterfalls strike fear in the hearts of its opponents. Boasting a fairly high flinch rate and perfect accuracy, Waterfall is almost always the superior move choice. However, Aqua Tail allows Gyarados to OHKO certain foes, such as defensive Landorus-T and Choice Scarf Jirachi. Double-Edge is mainly used to hit a lured-in Rotom-W, though no bulky Water-type other than Jellicent appreciates being hit by it. Ice Fang is preferred in the third slot to hit Grass-types such as Celebi and Breloom, being the only move on this set that can OHKO the latter; it also hits Dragon-types hard. Stone Edge, on the other hand, does a boatload of damage to Kyurem-B and opposing Gyarados. Finally, Earthquake deals heavy damage to Jirachi, Ninetales, Tentacruel, and Toxicroak.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs allow Gyarados to outrun Adamant Breloom while still being powerful enough to dish out heavy damage; the remaining EVs are placed in HP to give Gyarados a little bulk. Avalanche can be used instead of Ice Fang for a harder hit, but negative priority is a major detriment, as Gyarados doesn't want to take any unnecessary damage. Bite can 2HKO Jellicent and Celebi and deal solid damage to Starmie and Latios.</p>

    <p>Rain support is a necessity for Gyarados, as otherwise it just doesn't hit hard enough to be justified over another Choice Band user, such as Dragonite or Terrakion. Additionally, Gyarados has a rather nasty Stealth Rock weakness, so because it intends to switch in and out a lot, Rapid Spin support is required. Life Orb Starmie is the best choice, as it can beat most bulky Water-types; unfortunately it adds yet another Electric weakness to the team. Breloom, specifically the SubPunch variant, is another choice to beat bulky Water-types. It can set up a Substitute against Jellicent and KO it, which Starmie cannot do; Gastrodon, Tentacruel, and Politoed are also vulnerable to it. Finally, be sure to have Pokemon such as Terrakion or Jirachi to deal with Kyurem-B.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Gyarados really doesn't have any other options worth considering. Aqua Tail could be used over Waterfall on Dragon Dance sets for bit of extra power, but its lower accuracy makes it usually not worth it. While Scald might seem tempting for a bulky set, its lack of power makes Gyarados complete Taunt fodder. Flail isn't really that great for Gyarados with its relatively low Speed. Wacan Berry could be worth a shot, but Gyarados still dies to most Electric-type moves anyway. Bounce and Outrage might be worth a look on Choice sets, but they have detrimental lock-in effects that make them not worth the while.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Despite its diversity, Gyarados has quite a few counters. The foremost of these is Ferrothorn, who can take pretty much any attack and break Gyarados's Substitutes with Power Whip. Additionally, it can set up Stealth Rock, which makes Gyarados's life miserable. Skarmory is also difficult to break through and can phaze out Gyarados, negating any boosts it has obtained. Rotom-W is also a good response, especially if it carries Thunderbolt. Gyarados really can't hit Rotom-W hard at all outside of a Choice Band-boosted Double-Edge. Opposing defensive variants of Gyarados also fare well, as they can phaze your Gyarados out. Kyurem-B is another solid counter, boasting the ability to take any hit, even Stone Edge in a pinch, and OHKO with Fusion Bolt in return. Finally, Porygon2 can shake off everything Gyarados can throw at it, possibly even Intimidate Gyarados with Trace, and OHKO back with a Thunderbolt.</p>

    <p>Any Pokemon that can outspeed Gyarados after a Dragon Dance is a pretty good check. These Pokemon include Choice Scarf Terrakion and Choice Scarf Thundurus-T. The latter resists Bounce, making it an even better switch-in; the former is a much riskier choice, as it is weak to Waterfall and and does not resist Bounce. Jolteon can only outspeed non-Jolly Gyarados variants that are at +1, but it is still usable. However, none of them can really switch in out of fear of Waterfall. Pokemon that resist or are immune to Water, such as Gastrodon, Starmie, Cloyster, Celebi, and Toxicroak, are also good checks. None of them, especially Celebi and Toxicroak, particularly enjoy taking a Bounce, however. For this reason, when combined with a Pokemon that resists Flying. Perish Song Celebi is particularly effective when paired with such partners. Toxicroak is only useful against the Substitute + Dragon Dance variant and only if it runs Substitute itself. If all else fails, a surprise Electric-type move, such as ThunderPunch on Jirachi or Hidden Power Electric on Keldeo, will do in a pinch.</p>
  2. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I believe in the previous thread they wanted Outrage mentioned for AC on the Scarf set.

    Toxicroak should be listed as a Check to the SubDD set. Its immune to Water attacks and can get by Bounce with Substitute.
  3. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    This might sound like an odd, but I would say scald should be an option on restalk gyarados. It can burn attackers like terrakion which can increase gyarados's bulk even further.
  4. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    done and done and no
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Mention Outrage and Bounce for the choiced sets in OO. (meaning Outrage in OO only for Band, not for Scarf which has it on AC).

    Also mention how Double Edge offers beautiful neutral coverage on the offensive DD set and it kills many common switch-ins to gyarados at +1 such as Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, and Dragons. Its obvious downfall is the recoil, which when added with LO, kills Gyarados pretty fast. Also add Return in the AC of the same set, which OHKOes most of the Pokemon that Stone Edge does, except for Kyurem-B and opposing Gyarados, but has better accuracy.


    [​IMG]

    QC Approved 1/3
  6. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    made changes alexwolf ty!
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Personally I prefer Moxie getting first slash over Intimidate on the first set but everything else looks fine so far.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  8. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    okay I'll write this when I have time
  9. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    I think Payback deserves an AC option over Bite. I mean it does similar things with more power.
  10. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    Could you explain your ev spreads, it seems to me that Gyarados is difficult because you need to use very different EV spreads depending on whether you go Adamant or Jolly. In any case there is never a reason to go over 264 speed on a set with Dragon Dance, as Gyarados almost always uses substitute or dragon dance on the first turn it comes in. 264 at +1 outspeeds Jolteon and everything below, at +2 it outspeeds Scarf Latios. So 264 only fails to outspeed timid Venusaur, which can't touch Gyarados anyway. I would list Intimidate as the better ability on most sets, it allows gyarados to be useful as something more than a sweeper, and helps it boost its speed. Is there any reason to use Adamant over Jolly, what KO's do you get?
  11. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    My .02 cents so far...

    That should say ARE instead of IS.

    Also mention it stops the foe from trolling Bounce with Subsitute/Protect.

    I'd also mention Earthquake with that.

    Mention it also does a ton of damage to Kyruem-B. And I wouldn't say it guarantees it dies the next turn, but could mention a Steel type or faster Pokemon with an electric move can take advantage of the lock-in.

    One more thing, Gyarados is the only OU Dragon Dancer not weak to priority, I think that should be added as a selling point somewhere in the update.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Unless there is a certain KO missed you are probably right. With a Jolly nature and an EV spread of 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe, Gyarados loses 11 Atk points, but now outspeeds positive natured 70s, Jolteon after a DD, and Scarf Latios after 2 DDs. I think it should be the primary nature, and Adamant can be mentioned in the AC for teams that don't care about the targets that Gyarados outspeeds with Jolly.
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    After thinking about it, that does seem like the better EV spread, since beating Jolteon at +1 is a pretty big deal and you wouldn't be giving up THAT much attack power.
  14. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    got this mammoth written!
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Also mention Will-O-Wisp for Ferrothorn, meaning Ferrothorn will have a harder time breaking Gyarados's substiutes.

    OTHER OPTIONS: Mention Wacan Berry, maybe Flail as well?

    Any Pokemon that can outspeed Gyarados after a Dragon Dance is a pretty good check. These Pokemon include Choice Scarf Terrakion and Choice Scarf Thundurus-T. The latter resists Bounce, making it an even better switch-in; the latter is a much riskier choice. Jolteon can only outspeed non-Jolly variants that are at +1, but it works too.

    For this part I'd mention that none of them can truly switch in to Gyarados in fear of Waterfall, as they all take a ton of damage from it.

    Edit: Another thing I'd mention for a Check is something with a surprise Electric move, such as Thunderbolt Gengar or ThunderPunch Metagross/
  16. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    Just an EV side note on the Bulky DD set. With that investment, a burned standard Ferrothorn still has the potential to break Gyarados' Substitute if it hits max damage roll; it does 88 damage, and Gyarados' Subs are 88 HP exactly (technically 88.25, but it rounds down). By moving 4 Atk EV's to Def, that burned Ferrothorn's max damage roll is 87. Very tiny change, and very situational, but if you run Burn support in general it's a fun fact to know.

    EDIT: *coughbymyavataritshouldbeobviouswhyIbuildGyaradosforburnsupportcough*
  17. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    thanks for the suggestions hemp man, I implemented them all. I've tentatively moved 4 EVs to Defense on bulky DD as per Seth Vilo's suggestion, but feel free to dispute me if you think it's too trivial.
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Hold up, I used this calculator and got this:

    0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 75-88 (21.24 - 24.92%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

    Therefore the 4 Defense Ev's are not needed.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 75-88 (21.24 - 24.92%) -- possible 6HKO

    So the 4 Def EVs are not needed.
  20. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    seth vilo's right guys: gyara's subs are 88 hp and the max roll of burned power whip is 88. look at hp numbers, not percentages.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Add ''and the immense physical bulk granted by Intimidate.''

    Add that even after a DD it is outspeed and OHKOed by many common scarfers such as Latios, Terrakion, and Rotom-W.

    Change majority of the tier to multitude of Pokemon. Majority of Pokemon is a bit exaggerating.

    When talking about the pros of Taunt, add how it lets Gyarados deafeat P-Song Celebi, which is one of Gyarados's best counters (SpD Celebi is always paired with a Steel-type to take Bounce).

    Also i don't like the paragraphs that you have made. The first one is supposed to talk about the pros of Sub and the other about the pros of Taunt, but the second talks about the remaining set too, making the whole structure look bad. Either seperate the Set Comments to three paragraphs, or put them all in one, which imo is the best option.

    Change this to ''breaking a Substitute with Body Slam and Power Whip respectively.''

    Remove Return from the AC of the Bulky DD set, as it is simply too weak to do anything without an Adamant nature and a Life Orb (and even then it is AC material at best).

    Also when talking about the pros of Intimidate, mention that it enables Gyarados to set-up a Sub that can't be broken by Lead Mamo's Ice Shard or Scarf Jirachi's Ice Punch, turning them into set-up fodder.

    P-Song Celebi is one Gyarados's worse enemies, so mention partners to handle it. Defensive Polioed with Perisn Song/Encore is also a big nuisance to Gyarados, as it can force it out multiple times and generally prevent it once or twice from getting a sweep. Also de-emphasize the importance of Electric-types as threats to Gyarados, as the only reliable check of those is Tbolt Rotom-W. Jolteon and Thundurus-T can't switch in and are outsped and OHKOed after a boost, so i wouln't even mention them tbh. They are revenge killers at best, and not worth a mention here. Just mention how Rotom-W is problematic for Taunt versions or if it has Tbolt.

    Actually, this set is more self-reliant than the other one, as it doesn't need rain support as much as the other, nor does it need its coutners weakened or eliminated to the degree that the Bulky DD set does. It is meant to blast holes early/mid-game and provide the team with valuable resistances and maybe Intimidate. Also please slash Intimidate after Moxie, and mention that it is also very helpful for teams that have trouble with certain physical threats, and makes Gyarados a great team player. Also describe the moves in the 4th slot in the order that they are slashed, meaning first Stone Edge and then EQ.

    In the AC of the offensive DD set mention that the Adamant nature is preffered because Gyarados's role is more of a hole puncher early-mid game, and so the extra power is appreciated to do as much damage as possible. Also emphasize how good Double Edge is againsr Rotom-W, but also how much the recoil sucks; only use Double Edge if you plan on using it very recklessly.

    Nah rain support is not essential, just a nice bonus. As i said again, this set is much more self-reliant than the other one due to the extra power provided by LO. Rain support is a luxury; great if you can have it, but not essential. Rapid Spin support is much more important and almost a necessity if one wants to abuse Gyarados's good bulk and resistances, one of the reasons to use it in the first place.

    Spinners are not the only way to deal with SR. As offensive Gyarados fits nice on HO teams, suicide leads with Taunt are great ways to keep SR off the field for a limited amount of time, but usually long enough for Gyarados to come in and do its job. As for partners that can take on or set-up on the scarfers that trouble Gyarados, mention SubCM Jirachi and SD Scizor.

    Also Ferrothorn and Jellicent are huge hassles for this set, so mention partners to take care of them. Magnezone is an amazing partner for this reason, as is Nasty Plot HP Fire Celebi.

    This can be said with fewer words: '' rain boosted Waterfall + Moxie is this set's real pro''. Make it simple and easy for the reader to understand, as this is the real reason to use Scarf Gyarados over other Scaf users.

    When talking about Stone Edge, mention Kyurem-B too.

    From the AC, remove Bounce, which is OO material, as a 2-turn choice locked move is simply terrible and huge set-up bait. You can't even revenge kill your target as it will switch out. Also remove the mention of Aerodactyl and say that Jolly should be an option only for rain teams that have trouble with Jolteon.

    Explain that offensive Starmie is the best choice to soften up the opponent. Also neither offensive Starmie nor Toxic Tentacruel have a trouble against spin blocker so remove this.

    Remove this as it isn't a quality that defensive Pokemon absolutely need and Gyarados can phaze anyway, which is huge for a defensive Pokemon.

    Mention that Dragon Tail should be used only if you have troubles with Baton Pass chains.

    In the AC of the same set, you say that Chansey and Blissey are the best Wish Passers to use with Gyarados. Change this to Jirachi, which is a much more viable option in this metagame and has better defensive synergy with Gyarados.

    Everything you say on the Set Comments of the CB set is fine, however add a simple sentence that describes the best how CB Gyara is played: ''hard hitting tank''. It comes in with his bulk and resistances and hits hard.

    Once again, move Bounce from the AC to OO. Same with Outrage.

    Forretress is a not the best choice for rain teams, and LO pairs much better with CB Gyarados, so only mention LO Starmie, and maybe Tentacruel if you want.

    In the checks and coutners, add P-Song Celebi as a good counter ot Bulky DD, Scarf, RestTalk, and even CB sets, as long as it is partnered with a Flying-resistor, which it usually is (Jirachi, Skarmory, Heatran).

    Also i know that you have mentioned Kyurem-B, but i don't remember if you have mentioned him enough in the AC of each set, so if you haven't make sure that you do, as well as mention Pokemon to take care of it, as it is one of Gyarados's biggest problems
  22. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    okay got everything
  23. Hemp Man

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    By the way, when you mentioned Magenzone as a partner, did you mention that Gyarados+Magenzone resist every attack in the game togehter? I did a CTRL+F for Magenzone and didn't see you mention that.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I found some more:

    In general when you refer to P-Song Celebi as a counter to Bulky DD Gyarados, specify that it needs to have a resilient Flying resisting partner, such as Skarmory, Heatran, Jirachi, or Rotom-W.

    Politoed support is not just a solid choice, it is almost mandatory, as Gyarados really needs the rain boost in order to be threatening after just one boost. Without rain up Gyarados can't even 2HKO 252 HP Jirachi and Scarf Rotom-W at +1, and fails to OHKO several offensive Pokemon neutral to its STABs, such as Garchomp, Scarf Jirachi, and Magnezone.

    Change Steel-types to Ferrothorn and Skarmory, as there isn't any other Steel-type that troubles Gyarados.

    Even if the things that wall Gyarados are gone, Gyarados will rarely manage to sweep, because it is pretty slow even after a DD, so every common scarfer outspeeds it. Just say if the few Pokemon that counter this set are gone or weakened, Gyarados will manage to soften up the opponent's team pretty nice so that another of your sweepers can finish the job.

    Remove Metagross and mention Tentacruel and Toxicroak instead.

    Also when talking about Jolly, add that it allows Gyarados to outrun Jolly Mamoswine and take it out with Waterfall, which otherwise could dent Gyarados and put it to OHKO range for any priority user or scarfer.

    Change this to this: ''Rain support helps Gyarados get certain OHKOes after a boost so Politoed is appreciated as a partner, but is not obligatory, as this set doesn't lack power without rain.''

    Remove Keldeo, as in rain it 2HKOes Gyarados after SR, and Gyarados cannot OHKO back anyway. Volcarona or Mamoswine are much better examples.

    After you fix those, i think that this will be ready for the 3rd QC check!
  25. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    You mean Jolly Mamo, right? Otherwise Adamant Gyarados already outspeeds Mamo and hits it harder than Jolly.
    I'd also like to see some more reasoning behind running Adamant over Jolly when you're not using Politoed in your team, what important KOes does it achieve that make being unable to outspeed Jolteon less of an issue? I'd always run Adamant on Gyara, personally, but I think some examples could be useful for the reader.

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