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Gyarados (Choice)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by NatGeo, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    [​IMG][​IMG]


    POWERFUL WATER DRAGON

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 2: Double Edge
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Ice Fang / Avalanche
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 88 Def / 168 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Under the rain, Gyarados can work as an admirable wallbreaker thanks to both Choice Band and rain boosting its already powerful Waterfall to intimidating levels. At the same time, it can also bring a surprising amount of physical bulk to the table with to Intimidate, an effect which is compounded with investment.</p>

    <p>Waterfall is Gyarados's first and foremost attack, and is probably the one you will be using the majority of the time. Water is a great STAB to have, and Gyarados is able to abuse it excellently under the rain, punching holes in many opponents. Aqua Tail is also an option in that moveslot, as it is more powerful by a decent margin. However, it lacks Waterfall's flinch rate and perfect accuracy. Earthquake allows Gyarados to hit many opponents harder outside of rain, and even nail the other two common weather starters, Tyranitar and Ninetales, for excellent damage, provided they aren't carrying an Air Balloon. Double-Edge gives Gyarados excellent coverage, hitting just about everything in OU for netural damage in conjunction with the previous two moves. It gives it a solid hit on Grass-types such as Celebi, as well as crippling Rotom-W on the switch-in, doing 72.53% at the minimum to the standard spread. In the final moveslot, Ice Fang gives Gyarados an excellent hit on Dragon-types such as Latios and Dragonite, OHKOing both with some residual damage, needed in Dragonite's case to deactivate Multiscale. Avalanche is also an option for a much harder hit on faster opponents, as Gyarados is perfectly capable of taking hits from many attackers with investment in Defense and Intimidate.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread allows Gyarados to hit as hard as possible yet still maintain some physical bulk. Max Attack means Gyarados hit incredibly hard, especially when given a Choice Band and rain support. The Speed EVs are just enough to outspeed all neutral-natured Pokemon with Base 70 Speed, such as Breloom. The remaining EVs are put into Defense to take full advantage of Intimidate. After Intimidate, Gyarados is able to survive several extremely powerful hits, such as a Choice Band Haxorus Outrage, and retaliate. Choice Band is the preferred item to give Gyardos as much power as possible, as is an Adamant nature. A Jolly nature is also a possibility, but the increase in Speed is largely unnecessary.</p>

    <p>Stone Edge is a possibility to run alongside Earthquake to gain excellent neutral coverage, though Gyarados already gets excellent neutral coverage with Waterfall and Double-Edge, gaining a STAB boost on the former. Return is an option to run over Double-Edge, but the loss of power is very discouraging. Bounce is another STAB move it can use, scoring deceptively good coverage. Bounce also allows Gyarados to take care of most Volcarona if it is sunny. While this looks good on paper, one must keep in mind that Bounce has to take one turn to charge, allowing the opponent to switch the vulnerable Pokemon out of harm's way. Payback scores a decent hit on Psychic-types, but it doesn't work too well considering it's low Base Power is only increased when the opponent goes first, and not when they switch in like in Generation 4. Bite is another interesting Dark-type move to use, consistently having a higher Base Power than Payback, and doing roughly equal damage as Earthquake to targets such as Slowbro and Jellicent.</p>

    <p>Drizzle support is almost a necessity when using Gyarados, as it increases the power of its Water-type STAB attacks tremendously. Thus, Politoed is a great teammate to give Drizzle support, as well as possibly break down any overly physically defensive Pokemon that could be standing in Gyarados's way. Gyarados's secondary Flying typing, while providing many useful resistances, gives it a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, so Rapid Spin support is an excellent idea from something such as Tentacruel, who can abuse Rain Dish in the rain to constantly replenish 6.25% of it's health in addition to Leftovers or Black Sludge.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Ice Fang
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Like other abusers of Moxie, Gyarados can easily prey on the fact that people will often switch in the least useful Pokemon they have at that time, sacrificing it and ensuring that another teammate can get in safely. With Moxie, Gyarados can clean up incredibly efficiently, thanks to Moxie boosting its Attack after each kill, allowing Gyarados to sweep with Waterfall, which is already boosted in the rain. When carrying a Choice Scarf, Gyarados has the equivalent of a Dragon Dance boost when Waterfall is used, although Gyarados's Attack stat itself is not boosted.</p>

    <p>Waterfall is your main attack on this set, and may often be the only attack you need, sporting a solid Base Power as well as a STAB boost, and possibly one from rain. The other three attacks are on this set for scouting Gyarados's counters earlier in the match, and what the opponent will switch in to take Waterfall. Earthquake is the gold standard in attacking moves, and scores a solid hit on many things that take little damage from Waterfall, such as Tentacruel and Jellicent. Ice Fang is a decent coverage move, hitting many Flying- and Dragon-types. Stone Edge occupies the final moveslot, forming excellent coverage with Earthquake and hitting many Pokemon in the metagame for neutral damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This variant of Gyarados needs as much Speed and Attack as it can possibly get; hence, maximum EVs in those stats are mandatory. Choice Scarf, along with a Jolly nature, allows Gyarados to outspeed all of the unboosted tier besides Deoxys-S, who needs to run at least 144 EVs to outspeed with a neutral nature, though it needs none if it is running a Speed-boosting nature.</p>

    <p>Rain support is an absolute must when running this variant of Gyarados, as it is the only way Waterfall will be able to score some of its crucial KOs, with or without a Moxie boost, making Politoed the perfect teammate for Gyarados. Teammates who can abuse Drizzle support from the aforementioned Politoed to weaken the opposing team, such as Starmie and Tornadus, are great teammates to help Gyarados even more in cleaning up teams with Waterfall. Rapid Spin support is also a must, due to the fact that Gyarados is both weak to Stealth Rock and will be switching in and out of the field several times throughout a match. Tentacruel is probably the best candidate for a Rapid Spin user under rain, as it can take advantage of it with Rain Dish while also both absorbing and laying down Toxic Spikes, which coincidentally, are helpful for Gyarados. Entry hazards in general are a good idea when using Gyarados to further weaken the opponent for a potential sweep with Waterfall.</p>
  2. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Yeah, I'd separate them for now, since, like you said, they function rather differently in their own ways. I like Intimidate + Choice Band Gyarados, but obviously becomes a little less useful with Moxie because of the Speed. Moxie is more suited for a Choice Scarf set.
  3. Aleva

    Aleva

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    Intimidate C.Band Gyara is amazing. You can lead with it against T-Tar or Ninetales and immediately threaten a OHKO with Waterfall and EQ respectively. To make things even better, T-Tar players usually assume its a DD Gyara and then set up rocks. Choice Band Waterfall outspeeds and OHKOs so no rocks up for the rest of the match.

    Just thought it worthy of mention, I run Waterfall / EQ / SE / Payback. Payback is my weapon against CM Latias that try to fight. A +1 Dragon Pulse does ~57% to Gyara, while you OHKO back with Payback. It also helps against Celebi, Gengar lacking T-Bolt, .etc

    Bounce I find isn't a great option when the Choice set hits with a lot of surprise, and Bounce is kind of counter-productive with that.

    And Ice Fang is just... weak. It only has 10 BP more with a SE hit, while against the Dragon/Flying types, SE takes care of them just fine.
  4. Pocket

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    In a similar vein as Payback, Gyarados can possibly run Avalanche, allowing it to take on DDNites as well. Avalanche gets negative priority and doesn't double in damage without getting hit, but it's not like Latias or Dragonite can set up on a choiced Ice move that's doing ~68% without the boost.

    Other than Dragons, Avalanche can come in handy against Grass Types.
  5. Bartman101

    Bartman101 Banned deucer.

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    I reckon Return/Frustration would need a mention, along with Payback and Avalanche.
  6. Aleva

    Aleva

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    Return and Frustration on useless on Gyarados, who has one of the best neutral STABs in the game, and the EdgeQuake combo that combine to hit everything? neutrally. The 4th slot should be either Payback or Avalanche. Probably Avalanche to hit dragons and Virzion, but the negative priority sucks so Payback is also an option.
  7. Santuga

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    No Ice Fang on the CB set?
  8. Pocket

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    The 2 slashed Paybacks on the CB set looks odd. I would possibly remove the Payback slashed with Stone Edge, because Stone Edge comes in handy for nailing Dragonite, Volcarona, Rotom-W among others.
  9. Aleva

    Aleva

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    I wouldn't make Bounce a secondary slash on the Choice Band set. It is only really useful for hitting Breloom / Virizion for major damage, since all the other fighting types are handled by Waterfall. Scrafty, Terrakion, Mienshao, .etc all get 1-2HKOd by Waterfall regardless. As a STAB Waterfall > Bounce as well.
  10. PK Gaming

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    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  11. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Bounce / Avalanche
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Stone Edge / Payback

    Uhhh??? Was just using this EXTENSIVELY today.. Don't understand the current move choices...

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 2: Double Edge
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Ice Fang / Avalanche
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 88 Def / 168 Spe

    Ok, so let me explain:

    Aqua Tail kills more shit. It just does. It needs to be slashed. It is not better than Waterfall, but there are times when you need extra power and Aqua Tail gives you that. It can 2HKO Skarmory that are too heavy in SpDef (if that still exists), where as Waterfall never will (unless its raining, then Aqua Tail is a flat out inferior moot point)

    Double-Edge is Gyarados best other move, unless its illegal? I don't know how the importing work I assume you go Gen III --> Gen IV --> Gen V. PO lets me use it. Double-Edge is the same base power as Waterfall, and gives you just a strong brute move. Water / Normal is excellent coverage.

    Payback is useless, new mechanics. Earthquake hits Jellicent just as hard. So any mention of payback should be scrapped unless you figure out a way to survive Starmie's T-Bolt (but Double Edge would OHKO Starmie anyway).

    Stone Edge in reality is useless unless you are countering another Gyarados (which isn't a bad idea). But since gyarados is pretty rare in itself I wouldn't use it for that craptastic accuracy. Other than that it hits NOTHING. Dragonite is 2HKOed by Double Edge and OHKOed by Ice Attack. Rotom and water pokemon get bombed by Double Edge.

    Bounce on a Choice is just horrible. You spring up, they switch out, your locked into that shit. NEVER.

    Ice Fang / Avalanche works in the last slot. Hits that got damn fucking Dragonite hard as nails through Multi-Scale. I'm inclined to think Avalanche is shitty but since its almost as powerful as Ice Fang even if you attack first, its fine. I would slash them for Wifi player's accessibility's sake.

    Also, I would mention Bite in OO. It sounds funny, but a CB Bite hits Jellicent hard, has an excellent flinch rate and can at least DENT Slowbro. Hitting Celebi is also another bonus. It is no stronger than Double Edge, but you don't get the recoil and you get the flinches.

    EV's: I don't understand why Gyarados is max / max at all. Nothing is between 260 speed and 240, which is just above Adamant Breloom. You can put those extra 88 EV's into Def to make more use of Intimidate. Trust me, it makes a big difference. I've survived shit like CB Hax Outrage.

    Also for scarf, make sure to heavily emphasize Rain support. It's not threatening til you have some extra meat behind it. Adamant might want to get mentioned as well. You lose out on offensive +1 Dragonite and Jolteon though, but the power difference with Gyarados is always noticeable. Jolteon is rare as hell now anyway.
  12. yee

    yee
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    Good post RaikouLover. I would just like to point out that in the past round at least there is a massive fustercluck in the 240-260 speed range. Rotom-W, Gliscor, Jirachi, Celebi, Mew, Tentacruel, etc. etc. all creeped from the point of Jolly Tyranitar, all in the 240-260 range. I agree that trying to outrun them is pointless unless you run Jolly though, because creeping above Adamant Gyara's 259 speed is a smart move for the opponent with Jolly Breloom/Timid Toed very close by at 262 with the bonus of an excellent chance to outspeed the Jolly Tar group. With Gyarados's excellent bulk to use after applying Intimidate I think it would be very wise to avoid speed creep.
  13. Pocket

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    I second, yee - great post, RaikouLover!

    That spread you provided seems best with Jolly Nature, because it outruns all the important mons, including Modest Heatran, Adamant CB Dragonite, Adamant Mamoswine, and Jolly Breloom. With your spread it reaches 264 Speed, but it only needs 263 for the reasons mentioned by yee. It wouldn't hurt to reach 270 Speed to catch SD Toxicroak by surprise either. The extra bulk does make a difference, especially with Intimidate - I agree.

    If it's Adamant, I'd probably give it max Speed, since it lets it outrun all the mons above except for Jolly Breloom and Toxicroak.
  14. NatGeo

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    so im back for a sec and pk says rl's post is good i'll be implementing his changes in CB. Also I'm giving payback and bounce ac mentions...?

    edit: yeah sure why not ill put bite in oo, but im still clinging to bounce unless qc says otherwise just because STAB Flying is pretty good
  15. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    I wouldnt bother with Bounce. Payback can hit Latias hard because your slower you can mention that. But Bite should be in OO because it is generally better because it can hit and hopefully flinch Jellicent and Slowbro. And it should OHKO Min / Min Starmie (someone will have to calc this)
  16. SJCrew

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    92% - 108.8%

    Yeah, Starmie dies.
  17. RaikouLover

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    Yeah, so Bite is just for slower things since Double-Edge has the same power. Poor Starmie :)
  18. Aleva

    Aleva

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    Just wondering, isn't Double-Edge kind of counter-productive with Intimidate and the idea to be a bulky attacker?
  19. RaikouLover

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    It's main point is to kill things. Intimidate is just a bonus and the extra EV's are "filler." Double Edge kills shit. It OHKO's Starmie for example. It also 2HKO's Rotom. It is both more powerful and accurate than Stone Edge and has better neutral coverage. It's power also trumps Return / Frustration. Intimidate and the EVs still will do well if you switch into a DD Dragonite on the Dragon Dance for example. You actually survive the Outrage if SR is not down and OHKO with Avalanche / Ice Fang (SR is needed for IF).
  20. Pocket

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    Note that Intimidate, unlike MultiScale, affects the opponent, so it lets the rest of your team take the physical hit way easier after the Intimidate.
  21. Iconic

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    looks fine just mention return on cb

    QC Approved 2/3
  22. Setsuna

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    Ok. As I said on IRC, I'm going to pass this. But later on when we go through each OU analysis that's onsite, some of the stuff in these two sets may change. That's not a problem, nonetheless.

    QC APPROVED (3/3)

    Good job so far, Zurich.
  23. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    ok thanks guys! writing this asap
  24. NatGeo

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  25. sirndpt

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    remove add comments

    amateur GP check (open)
    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 2: Double Edge
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Ice Fang / Avalanche
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 88 Def / 168 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Under the rain, Gyarados can work admirably as an admirable a wallbreaker thanks to both Choice Band and Drizzle boosting its already powerful Waterfall to intimidating impressive or any other synonym - Intimidate is mentioned below levels. At the same time, it can also bring surprising physical bulk to the table thanks to Intimidate, which is further boosted if you invest in it it also has surprising bulk after investment, as its good 95 / 79 / 100 defenses are further boosted by Intimidate.</p>

    <p>Waterfall is Gyarados's first and foremost attack, and is probably the one you will be using the majority of the time. Water is a great STAB to have, and Gyarados is able to abuse it excellently under the rain, punching to punch holes in many opponents. Aqua Tail is also an option in that this moveslot, seeing as it is significantly more powerful by a decent margin. However, it lacks Waterfall's perfect accuracy and flinch rate; therefore, Waterfall is the primary option. Earthquake allows Gyarados to hit many opponents harder outside of rain, and even nail the other two common weather starters, Tyranitar and Ninetales, for excellent damage, provided they aren't carrying a Balloon. Double-Edge gives Gyarados excellent coverage, hitting just about everything in OU for neutral damage in conjunction with the previous two moves. It gives it Gyarados a solid hit on good way to hit Grass-types such as Celebi, as well as and allows it crippling to cripple Rotom-W on the switch-in, doing a minimum of 72.53% at the minimum to the standard spread. In the final moveslot, Ice Fang gives Gyarados an excellent hit provides Gyarados with super effective coverage on Dragon-types such as Latios and Dragonite, OHKOing both with some slight damage, needed in Dragonite's case to deactivate Multiscale. Avalanche is also an option for a much harder hit on stronger attack against faster opponents, as Gyarados is perfectly capable of taking hits from many attackers thanks to investment in Defense and Intimidate.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread allows Gyarados to hit as hard as possible while still maintaining some physical bulk. Max Attack lets Gyarados hit incredibly hard gives Gyarados great offensive power, especially when given a Choice Band and rain support after the Choice Band and rain boosts. The Speed EVs are just enough to let Gyarados outspeed all neutral-natured base 70 Pokemon with Base 70 Speed, such as Breloom and Politoed?. The remaining EVs are put into Defense to take full advantage of Intimidate; after Intimidate, Gyarados is able to survive several extremely powerful hits, such as Choice Band Haxorus's Outrage, and retailiate, such as a Choice Band Haxorus Outrage. Choice Band is the preferred item to give Gyarados as much power as possible, as is an Adamant nature. A Jolly nature is also a possibility to outpace [maybe give a few examples], but the increase in Speed is largely unnecessary.</p>

    <p>Stone Edge is a possibility to run an option alongside Earthquake to gain for excellent neutral coverage, though but it Gyarados already gets excellent neutral coverage with STAB Waterfall and Double-Edge, gaining a STAB boost on the former. Return is an option to run over Double-Edge especially considering Gyarados's weakness to Stealth Rock / for greater survivability, but the loss of power is very discouraging. Bounce is another STAB move it can use, scoring deceptively?? explain good coverage. Bounce also allows Gyarados to take care of deal with [your preference] most Volcarona if it is sunny in sun. While this looks good on paper, one must keep in mind that Bounce has to takes one turn to charge, allowing the opponent to switch the vulnerable Pokemon out of harm's way. Payback scores a decent hit on Psychic-types, but it doesn't work too well considering it's low Base Power is only increased when the opponent goes first, and but not when they switch in like in Generation 4. Bite is another interesting Dark-type move to use, consistently having a higher Base Power than Payback, and doing roughly equal damage as Earthquake to targets such as Slowbro and Jellicent; it does more consistent damage, hits Slowbro and Jellicent as hard as Earthquake does, and comes with a handy flinch rate.</p>

    <p>Drizzle support is almost a necessity when running Gyarados, as it this increases the power of its Water-type STAB attacks tremendously. Thus, Politoed is a great teammate to give for Drizzle support,, as well as possibly break down any overly physically defensive Pokemon that could be standing in Gyarados's way. Gyarados's secondary Flying typing, while providing many useful resistances, gives it a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, so Rapid Spin support is an excellent idea from something like Tentacruel who can abuse Rain Dish in the rain to constantly replenish 6.25% of it's health in addition to Leftovers or Black Sludge. Tentacruel is a good choice, and with Rain Dish can take advantage of rain too. massive electric weak though?</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Ice Fang
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Like other abusers of Moxie, Gyarados can easily prey on the fact that people will often switch in their least useful Pokemon they have at that time, sacrificing it and ensuring to ensure that another teammate can get in safely. With Moxie, Gyarados can clean up incredibly efficiently, thanks to Moxie boosting as its Attack is boosted after each kill, allowing Gyarados to sweep with Waterfall, which is already boosted in the rain. When carrying a Choice Scarf in rain, Gyarados's Waterfall has gains the equivalent of an immediate Dragon Dance boost when Waterfall is used, seeing as their is both a boost to Speed and to Waterfall, though not Gyarados's Attack stat.</p>

    <p>Waterfall is your Gyarados's main attack on this set, and may often be the only attack you it needs, sporting a solid Base Power as well as a STAB boost, and possibly one from rain as its solid Base Power gains further boosts from STAB and rain. The other three attacks are on this set allow for scouting Gyarados's counters earlier in the match, and what the opponent will switch in to take Waterfall: Earthquake is the gold standard in attacking moves, and scores scoring a solid hit on many things that take little damage from Waterfall, such as Tentacruel and Jellicent. Ice Fang is a decent coverage move, hitting many Flying-, Grass-, and Dragon-types. Stone Edge occupies the final moveslot, forming giving excellent coverage with Earthquake and hitting many Pokemon in the metagame for neutral damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This variant of Gyarados needs as much Speed and Attack as it can possibly get; hence, maximum EVs in those stats are mandatory. Choice Scarf, along with a Jolly nature, allows Gyarados to outspeed all of the unboosted tier besides Deoxys-S, who needs to run at least 144 EVs to outspeed with a neutral nature, though it needs none if it is running a Speed-boosting nature.</p>

    <p>Rain support is an absolute must when running this variant of Gyarados, as it is the only way Waterfall with be able to score some of its crucial KOs, with or without a Moxie boost, making Politoed the perfect teammate for Gyarados. Teammates who can abuse Drizzle support from the aforementioned Politoed to weaken the opposing team, like Starmie and Tornadus, are great teammates to help Gyarados even more in cleaning up teams with Waterfall. Rapid Spin support is also a must, seeing as Gyarados is both weak to Stealth Rock and will be switching in and out of the field several times throughout a match. Tentacruel is probably the best candidate for a Rapid Spinner under rain, seeing as it can take advantage of it the weather with Rain Dish while also both absorbing and laying down Toxic Spikes, which coincidentially are helpful for Gyarados. Entry hazards in general are a good idea when runnning Gyarados nothing wrong, just that the sentence is a little long / no breaks to further weaken the opponent for a potential sweep with Waterfall.</p>

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