Gyarados (Substitute + Dragon Dance) WRITTEN [GP 1/2]

Woodchuck

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#1
Surprised this set isn't up yet, as it's IMO Gyarados's best set and is far more effective than either Bulky or Offensive Dragon Dance.
It doesn't even have an OO mention :/
Anyways...


Gyarados

[SET]
name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Bounce / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 80 HP / 224 Atk / 20 Def / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Apart from RestTalk, all of Gyarados's sets loathe status. This set aims to avoid crippling status through the use of Substitute. By using Substitute, Gyarados is able to safely set up on moves such as Scald, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and other status moves that would otherwise drastically decrease its likelihood of sweeping. Substitute also prevents Gyarados from being revenge killed by Choice Scarf users such as the omnipresent Rotom-W, taking the incoming Volt Switch or Thunderbolt and allowing Gyarados to either attack or set up with Dragon Dance. With its excellent bulk, typing, and abilities, Gyarados can easily grab a Dragon Dance boost and plow through the opposing team. Waterfall is the obligatory STAB move, hitting many Pokemon for neutral damage, and benefiting from the power boost that provided by Drizzle. Bounce and Stone Edge are both viable options for the last slot; Bounce allows Gyarados to dispatch of bulky Grass-types such as Celebi, while Stone Edge offers superior coverage against Dragon- / Flying-types such as Dragonite and Salamence as well as hitting Rotom-W for neutral damage. The EVs for this set allow Gyarados to outspeed all base 115 Speed Pokemon, such as Starmie, after one Dragon Dance, and also prevents a burned Ferrothorn from breaking its Substitutes with Power Whip. However, it is important to note that even an Intimidated Scizor is still able to break Gyarados's Substitutes with U-turn at least some of the time.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Both of Gyarados's abilities are viable for this set. Intimidate makes it much easier for Gyarados to set up on physical attackers, and also allows Gyarados to support the team, should it not find an opportunity to set up. Moxie allows Gyarados to take advantage of Pokemon sacrificed to break its Substitutes, as Gyarados's Attack increases with each KO. Because this set can be phazed by Skarmory and bulky Water-types, said Pokemon must be eliminated before attempting a sweep. Rotom-W pairs excellently with Gyarados; it threatens Skarmory and Water-types with its STAB Electric-type moves, and spreads burn throughout the opposing team with Will-O-Wisp. In general, burn support is greatly beneficial, especially to Intimidate variants of this set; burned, physically oriented Pokemon, such as Ferrothorn and Jirachi, will no longer be able to break Gyarados's Substitutes, allowing Gyarados to safely set up and wreak havoc. Rapid Spin support is also greatly appreciated, as this set drains HP quickly with Substitute and is consequently much more vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Entry hazards of your own, as well as Rain support, can help Gyarados net more KOs. Ferrothorn synergizes well with Gyarados, as it resists the Rock- and Electric-type moves that Gyarados is weak to, and has access to Stealth Rock and Spikes. Ferrothorn also fits well on most Rain teams.</p>
 
#2
I've never use this set, but I think you should make it more evident whether it uses Sub as a set-up buffer or like as a... Sub.

My thinking is that Intimidate would be better, because it could possibly allow you to keep your Sub against certain threats, or perhaps force their Pokemon out to get a free Sub. This is, of course, assuming the set plays the Sub defensively.

But if you use it for a quick, one-turn protection, like the Rotom-W example, the I would suggest pumping a lot more Speed EVs into it. Those 152 HP EVs don't allow you to survive any notable attacks, they're merely a cushion, and I would say you don't need them on a more offensively inclined set. It gets out-sped by base 105's after a DD, making it much easier to revenge if your opponent has more than one check to Gyarados. The Sub can protect you once, but what about if you needed it again? Subbing more than once would seriously affect your health, even with Lefties.

I don't doubt that this is a great set, but it seems like it tries to be an offensive and bulky set at the same time, which I wouldn't see working as well.
 

AccidentalGreed

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#4
Bounce?!!!!! Explain.
It's already explained in one bullet point, and Bounce has always been a standard option on Dragon Dance Gyarados ever since it was available to it. The ability to force switches (in conjunction with hazard damage) in fear of a STAB Bounce is a more useful prospect than you think.

My opinion: it's a good enough set, though I am in favor of more Speed EVs simply because of the popularity of Pokemon topping the base 100 line, especially Terrakion and Thundurus.
 
#5
im not sure sub bounce needs its own set. its good, but the set is just dd gyara with sub over eq/se. Sub just helps it set up on other pokemon. also thats a bad ev spread, do you even outspeed thundurus at +1? definitely go up to whatever you need to outspeed starmie. also intimidate is better than moxie if this set gets approved
 

Woodchuck

actual cannibal
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#7
I've never use this set, but I think you should make it more evident whether it uses Sub as a set-up buffer or like as a... Sub.

My thinking is that Intimidate would be better, because it could possibly allow you to keep your Sub against certain threats, or perhaps force their Pokemon out to get a free Sub. This is, of course, assuming the set plays the Sub defensively.

But if you use it for a quick, one-turn protection, like the Rotom-W example, the I would suggest pumping a lot more Speed EVs into it. Those 152 HP EVs don't allow you to survive any notable attacks, they're merely a cushion, and I would say you don't need them on a more offensively inclined set. It gets out-sped by base 105's after a DD, making it much easier to revenge if your opponent has more than one check to Gyarados. The Sub can protect you once, but what about if you needed it again? Subbing more than once would seriously affect your health, even with Lefties.

I don't doubt that this is a great set, but it seems like it tries to be an offensive and bulky set at the same time, which I wouldn't see working as well.
The thing is, people often don't carry multiple checks vs gyara, they'll often rely on Scarf Rotom-W and then Ferrothorn or something. And with Gyarados's typing and power it's ridiculously easy to get multiple subs up, I've tested this extensively.

Substitute IS used to force out the opponent, and it does that even without Intimidate; Moxie lets you take advantage of that better and obtain more boosts. Especially being a Stealth Rock weak pokemon using Substitute, Gyarados appreciates the way Moxie only requires it to come in once or twice; with Intimidate, the goal of the set becomes continually coming in to force the opponent out. Moxie reduces the number of necessary switchins to break through a team.
im not sure sub bounce needs its own set. its good, but the set is just dd gyara with sub over eq/se. Sub just helps it set up on other pokemon. also thats a bad ev spread, do you even outspeed thundurus at +1? definitely go up to whatever you need to outspeed starmie. also intimidate is better than moxie if this set gets approved
The thing about this set, undisputed, is that it plays differently. The offensive DD set focuses on getting on Dragon Dance up then just smashing through things, while this set uses sub to gain boosts gradually by Moxie and obtaining additional Dragon Dances. It also isn't stopped by Scarf Rotom-W and has Bounce which isn't listed in the Offensive DD, allowing it to beat Ferrothorn one-on-one.

I have adjusted the EV spread to outspeed Starmie, yeah.

Intimidate vs Moxie is actually quite a bit in Moxie's favor, in my honest opinion. Gyarados comes in a lot on bulky waters to set up subs and start Dragon Dancing, and Intimidate isn't helping it as much there. Furthermore, a major point of Substitute is that your opponent often has to sac a poke to break the sub, and that means an immediate +1. Moxie tends to generate sweeps, while Intimidate, to paraphrase SlimMan, would make this set try to be bulky and offensive at the same time. Yes, it gives more setup opportunities, but then you really aren't getting the power to plow through things. The point of this set is to utilize Substitute to create setup opportunities and beat its checks, and Moxie seems like an added benefit from forcing your opponent to sac a poke that is too good to waste.

I'd also like to add that, in my experience, Gyarados is far more effective with Substitute than with Offensive Dragon Dance; when a counter is as immune to entry hazards, as common, and as good at scouting as Rotom-W, Gyarados is having a tough time using its teammates to beat it. I don't really see this set as being redundant with an Offensive DD set if it performs better.

EDIT: this wasn't so much of a "I will tell you how this works" post as a "let me summarize my understanding of how it works and see if you can correct me and help me understand it ^^" post
 
#8
Thanks woodchuck, I wasn't on the wcop team that made it :P I think I know how it works lol

Also just saying it again, moxie isn't very good. Intimidate has a lot more utilility.

edit: idk seemed more like a "i know how the set works and you dont" since all my suggestions make the team that you found this set on work
 

Woodchuck

actual cannibal
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#9
Fine, I've slashed in Intimidate, if QC is going to want it first in order then that's okay by me.
I think Moxie should at least deserve to be slashed in though.

edit: I first found the set in the creative movesets thread where it was c/ped from that team to the thread by bluemon
so I guess I will go look for the team now lol

Gyarados has probably been functioning differently the way I've been running it than the way that team has, so I guess it depends on what the goal of the set is
Despite you being part of the set being created in the first place, the way I had been running it had been working for me so I guess I'll try to figure out what your goal for the set was?
 
#11
im not saying moxie is bad, but intimidate allows you to set up on hella shit like ferrothorn, pokemon that carry rock moves, and just all physical attackers. you dont need more than +1 atk to really sweep a team. the problem, if there is one with the set, is gyara's lack of speed. not its ability to get kos. intimidate also has utility if gyarados doesnt get the chance to set up or some mon pulls a dd/sd out of its ass
 

Woodchuck

actual cannibal
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#12
im not saying moxie is bad, but intimidate allows you to set up on hella shit like ferrothorn, pokemon that carry rock moves, and just all physical attackers. you dont need more than +1 atk to really sweep a team. the problem, if there is one with the set, is gyara's lack of speed. not its ability to get kos. intimidate also has utility if gyarados doesnt get the chance to set up or some mon pulls a dd/sd out of its ass
I don't disagree with anything here (even if I did you'd know better lol), so... implemented.

just remove 'ability:' altogether if both abilities are viable, give an explanation of each in additional comments
OK

also undisputed could you link me to that team that you are referring to so that I can gain a better idea of the context of what you're saying?
 

Pocket

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#13
Yea, I personally feel that this Sub + DD Gyarados should replace the Bulky DDance set, because Sub has much more utility than Taunt for Gyarados.

1) Protection from Volt Switches
2) Being able to set up on bulky Water without worrying about Scald burns
3) Protection from revenge killers / priority moves
4) Protection while Gyarados is airborne

Congrats to undisputed who created this set!

Woodchuck said:
Bounce dispatches bulky Grass-types such as Celebi while Stone Edge offers superior coverage against Flying-types such as Dragonite
I disagree with that statement. Flying + Water has much better coverage than Rock + Water. Flying + Water is only really resisted by Rotom-W, who gets banged up by Rain-boosted Waterfalls, while Rock + Water is walled hardcore by Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Thanks for bringing attention to this set, Woodchuck!
 

Pocket

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#15
Yea, I was wondering that, because I remembered Scofield wielding this beast and clutching victory for the US - my b for the misplaced congrats :p
 

Bloo

Banned deucer.
#17
Philip7086 pioneered this set in BW, just saying!

Mention burn support. Rotom-W and other 'mons that can spread burn pair up really well with Gyarados, since they can cripple things like Ferrothorn, allowing Gyarados to set up much more easily. Other than that, I approve. I've had ridiculous success with this variant of Gyarados.

QC APPROVED (2/3)
 

symphonyx64

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#19
Confirming all the success Phil and Bloo had with this set. In fact, I think you should transfer this analysis over to Phil so he gets 100% of the credit for it.
 
#21
Just wanted to add a discovery I made to be considered. I'd like to point out that if the EV spread was changed to 80 HP/228 Atk/20 Def/180 Spe, then Gyarados' Substitute would always survive a burned Ferrothorn's Power Whip (normally does 41.3% - 49%, and while burnt does 20.8% - 24.8%). Sub Gyarados has the potential to set up on Ferrothorn, and by the time Gyarados may come out in the battle with all the Scalds running around on rain focused (and non rain-focused, even) teams, it's highly likely that Ferrothorn will be burnt by that time. Instead of stalling with subs for that 15% chance of a miss, this allows the serpent to nab one Dragon Dance as they switch Ferrothorn in, Sub while they Leech Seed or attack it, and get another DD in and 2HKO with Bounce. Unless the 20 Attack EV's do something specific, or unless Gyarados just isn't run with burn support (I run a couple Scalds and Sableye for this), this minor change of spreads can make an enormous difference in this serpent setting up and sweeping through someone.
 
#22
I've always used this set for Gyarados its so good. They think its regular DD so they go for a status then you sub and get a free DD and sweep and its just m-m-m-mgooooddddd lol this set definately deserves to be on
 
#23
Philip7086 pioneered this set in BW, just saying!

Mention burn support. Rotom-W and other 'mons that can spread burn pair up really well with Gyarados, since they can cripple things like Ferrothorn, allowing Gyarados to set up much more easily. Other than that, I approve. I've had ridiculous success with this variant of Gyarados.

QC APPROVED (2/3)
that was sk sorry bloo also someone infract phil for a noob ass post

Also, _definitely_ mention burn support. Burn support is what makes this set click (along with Drizzle obviously). Intimidate is almost always better for this set than Moxie btw.
 
#24
Should the speed EVs be updated to outspeed Alakazam? I don't know if he's going to be come popular enough to become worth investing for, but it could wreck you if it has a Sash (Two Psychics are going to KO :P)
 
#25
Should the speed EVs be updated to outspeed Alakazam? I don't know if he's going to be come popular enough to become worth investing for, but it could wreck you if it has a Sash (Two Psychics are going to KO :P)
Not common enough in OU, but he should be mentioned (you'll need at least 20 more EVs in Speed to beat it).