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Gyarados

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by gookie, Jan 7, 2013.

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  1. gookie

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    poppy is a dumb

    QC approvals: (trickroom, syrim)
    QC rejections:
    GP:
    [Overview]
    Access to STRONGEST WATERFALL IN THE GAME !!!
    It has the rare Taunt
    Intimidate + Moxie = Great Ability choices, Intimidate lets it take physical hits better then Lugia, Moxie lets it become even scarier after a kill.
    4* weakness to Electric-type moves
    Can't switch into STAB Draco Meteors, but its got OK bulk.
    All-in-all Gyarados's unique attributes let it harass stall quite easily X_X, just make sure to defend it from Thunder.


    [SET]
    Name : Tauntrados / Stall Breaker
    Move 1: Dragon Tail
    Move 2: Waterfall / Earthquake
    Move 3: Taunt
    Move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    Nature : Impish
    evs : 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 Spe
    ability: Intimidate

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Set abuses Gyarados ability to harass stall teams
    Taunt is crux of set, gives Gyarados ability to stop enemy team from recovering HP, and prevents the guy from getting phazed / statused.
    Waterfall is strong STAB, but is weather dependent. Earthquake lets you hit Steels immune to Toxic and isn't reliant on weather.
    Dragon Tail lets you phaze stuff and rack up residual damage.
    Toxic cripples walls even more, Taunt + Toxic -> can't heal from residual damage.


    [Additional Comments]
    GROUND-TYPE / ELECTRIC RESIST ;_;, stuff that appreciates the death / crippling of Lugia / GIratina
    You can throw sub on there and suddenly your impossible to phaze, but other moves are perferred.
    Example = SD Ground Arceus, annoyed by Lugia and Tina-a no longer after residual damage.
    Has physical bulk (calcs go here)

    ...
    Wish support is nice. Chansey and Rachi can tank thunders and pass wishes
    Dragon Tail = needs hazards.
    SR weakness -> Rapid Spin is cool too. Exca in particular due to elec immune
    Ferrothorn mention as it absorbs Thunders like a boss and can setup spikes.
    Spin Blocker support is nice too, although it does loads of damage to spinners, blockers are appreciated since kabutops and Excadrill might outspeed and Forry can tank a rain-boosted Waterfall.

    [SET]
    Name : Wall Breaker / Choice Band
    Move 1: Earthquake
    Move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    Move 3: Outrage
    Move 4: Stone Edge / Double Edge
    item: Choice Band
    Nature : Adamant
    evs : 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
    ability: Intimidate / Moxie

    [Set Comments]
    Strongest Waterfall in the game, and ironically the perfect moves to break walls that try switching into it...
    Intimidate gives it enough physical bulk so that it can repeatedly switch in without too much of a problem
    Waterfall is strong, accurate, and has a handy flinch chance. Aqua Tail is less accurate and doesn't have the flinch chance but the power difference is notable.
    Outrage lets you destroy the Giratinas / dragons, provides good coverage too.
    Last move is a way to hit Water-types without locking self into Outrage. Stone Edge complements EQ so that you get edge quake coverage and it gives no recoil but its inaccurate. Double Edge does the same with more power but gives recoil. Return as an option but then y u no Stone Edge?

    [Additional Comments]
    Strong, powerful, but slow, like team mates that can clean up after Gyarados has made holes in teams
    Kyogre for max power waterfall, but SOMETHING TO GET RID OF SUN, it works on sand but JUST DON'T USE IT WITH GROUDON X_X
    Something to get rid of Groudon as it weakens Waterfall.
    Example = Mixed Dancer Rayquaza
    Super strong calcs
    ...
    Appreciates Tailwind if you can support it with that.
    Everything in 1st AC ;_;
    Unlike Kabutops can tank hits

    [Other Options]
    Dragon Dance, but why aren't you using Salamence? Oh STAB on Waterfall and Moxie? Well its a little slow for DD...
    Triple status dos (status support)
    Muscular carp (support)

    [Checks and Counters]
    Groudon removes sun and can hit it with stone edge, beware though as it can get Toxiced + Dragon Tailed out in the process
    Grass Arceus is not 2HKOed by any more that Gyarados has and can spam Judgements, doesn't like Toxic though.
    Choice Scarf mons can Revenge it with Thunder
    SR limits switches
    Lack of recovery means the above stacks up.
    Really just focus on revenging it, walling it is hard due to Toxic + Taunt and the fact it breaks through everything else with the CB set.

    Outright rejecting it without any sort of testing? I used it for 300+ battles and it does not suck so much for an outright rejection, you can ask Poppy about it. No this isn't a joke, Gyarados deserves an analysis much more than Jumpluff or some other shits like Metagross.

    If you can put it in the threat list, it should get an analysis. If you are done testing it, and it really sucks, please remove it.
  2. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
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    Poppy snapped. Ok but seriously, the first set doesn't break stall at all. You can fish for a scald burn from ogre or tenta while groudon's stone edge still hurts.. the second set just seems like a worse kabutops who can SD, whack ferrothorn, has stab edge, and resists espeed.. :[
  3. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Not really, Gyarados does break certain stall teams. Gliscor can do it too but Gyarados has its own advantages. Sand teams has no real way of getting rid of Gyarados and unlike Gliscor, Gyarados has decent Special bulk, close to that of Dialga. Fighting Arceus can't beat Gyarados at all, and Gyarado can Taunt Giratina first, Heatran is slower and yet it is made to outspeed Giratina.

    Blissey gets Waterfalled, Taunted or Dragon Tail it out. Unlike Gliscor or Whimsicott, Gyarados has Waterfall to directly hit Ho-Oh, Tyranitar, some Arceus and most things decently hard. Taunt Groudon, Toxic it and you can phaze. Stone Edge does not even 3HKO Gyarados all the time and those with Fire Punch can just forget it.

    Fishing for Scald burns isn't exactly a way to counter Gyarados. If you have Tenta + Kyogre, then Gyarados can just find a partner for absorbing potential burns.

    Second set, plays differently from Kabutops. Gyarados is much bulkier and has Intimidate. Draco Meteor from Palkia fails to OHKO after Stealth Rock while Outrage does OHKO it back. Gyarados does not get OHKO by Ferrothorn either, or Earthquake from Groudon.

    Waterfall vs 252/176+ Lugia 47.6% - 56.3%
    Waterfall vs 252/4 Kyogre 41.8% - 49.5%
    Waterfall vs 4 HP Kyogre 50% - 58.8%
    Waterfall vs 248 HP Ho-Oh in the sun 55.4% - 65.5%
    Waterfall vs 252/252+ Groudon 29.7% - 35.6%
    Waterfall vs 112/8 Groudon 42.3% - 50.4%
    Waterfall in rain vs 4 HP Mewtwo 96.9% - 114.2%
    Outrage vs 112 HP Latias 138.6% - 163.5%
    Outrage vs Mixed Attacker Giratina-O 94.8% - 112%
    Outrage v Giratina 52.9% - 62.4%

    How well this Choice Band Gyarados takes hits? Outclassed by Kabutops?

    Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs Gyarados 60.8% - 71.5%
    Scarf Palkia Draco Meteor vs Gyarados 68% - 80%
    Scarf Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs Gyarados 74.7% - 88%
    Genesect U-turn vs Gyarados 17.6% - 20.8%
    -1 Atk Support Groudon Stone Edge vs Gyarados 44.3% - 52.3%
    -1 Atk RP Groudon Stone Edge vs Gyarados 75.2% - 88.5%
    252 SpA Ghost Arceus Judgment vs Gyarados 49.6% - 58.4%
    0 SpA Ghost Arceus Judgment vs Gyarados 40.3% - 47.5%

    Calculations for Taunt set.

    -1 Atk RP Groudon Stone Edge 52.4% - 62.1%
    -1 Atk Support Groudon Stone Edge 31.6% - 37.2%
    -1 Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird 42.7% - 50.4%
    -1 Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird 32.8% - 38.9%
    -1 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire in the sun 20.4% - 23.9%
    -1 Atk Rayquaza Outrage 43% - 50.6%
    +0 DD Rayquaza Outrage 64.9% - 76.3%
    +0 Mixed Rayquaza Draco Meteor 84.2% - 99.2%
    +1 Silk Scarf Arceus ExtremeSpeed 55.7% - 65.6%'

    At least just test Gyarados again before rejecting it
  4. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    *sigh* inb4 I GS locks this one as well before I finish typing

    Anyway, I'm sorry, but we have rejected Gyarados like a million times already in the past. We're not outright rejecting this due to lack of testing, but due to testing we have already done. It hasn't gotten any better in this metagame (if anything, it's gotten worse). It's not strong enough to break the things it needs to break, not fast enough to sweep, not bulky enough to tank anything even with Intimidate. It can "annoy" stall for a turn or two, but then it realises that it's SR weak and couldn't ACTUALLY come in repeatedly, something that needs to happen against stall. It adds extra Electric weaknesses to already very Electric weak rain teams. I'm sorry, but you can try and run hazards + rain + spinners + a number of other Pokemon to make Gyarados work, but the payoff is so ridiculously small it's not funny.

    You do realise only trickroom bothers to put Gyarados in his threat lists, right?
  5. trickroom

    trickroom
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    No, Gyarados is in the main Ubers threat list in the RMT section. No one complained about it either. The list is made by superimp.

    Ho-Oh gets wrecked by Stealth Rock too, and from what I tried, Gyarados did well. I defeated many Uber teams with Walrein but Gyarados is different, it has some use.

    Excadrill alone gives enough support to Gyarados for it to function. You don't have to be always in the rain. Most things that work in rain resists Electric too anyway such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, Giratina, Latias, Landorus.
  6. sammao

    sammao

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    Is today April fool day or what? Seriously, Gyarados obviously doesn't work in Uber, yet two experience QC members and one great contributor (Mr lol) said this is viable in Uber? OK, I suppose I need to explain my point, and here it is:

    The Taunt set isn't breaking stall anytime soon. Latias, Ferrothorn, Forretress with volt switch, ANY scarfer on stall team can all defeat Gyarados. Moreover even things like Giratina and Chansey that you are suppose to beat can defeat you (by attack like Outrage or Seismic toss) if they want to due to how weak your waterfall is without investment. Let's not even mention how it performs when against offense...

    The Choice band set is somewhat better, but it still blows. If I were to use Gyarados, why don't I use Choice band Palkia which has a much better speed and offensive (hell even defensive) typing? Of course even Choice band Palkia isn't very good but it at least has much better speed and attack to complete. Don't even compare Gyarados to other legit physical offensive monster such as Garchomp, Rayquazza, Zekrom, Extremekiller, Terrakion, ar.. I can go on and on but you get my point.

    Gyarados is outclassed, not strong enough, not fast enough, without a game changing ability or typing, it won't work in Uber.
  7. Jibaku

    Jibaku Balance is a fool's master
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    I asked bloo to take it out a while back and he agreed and it was gone for a while but who put it back on ?__?

    Don't really see the appeal but w/e. If this is going on site the only set that remotely makes some kind of sense is the first one because it sort of functions like Heatran...except without the bajillion resists.

    CB Gyarados blows and isn't going to wallbreak anything special (you have Palkia, Rayquaza which all do the cb job better. Yes, CBPalkia), and without the bulk you can't take advantage of Gyarados' somewhat...unique resistances.

    Then again I havent played in a while but I don't see what would be causing Gyarados to be viable all of a sudden. In any case, I agree with shrang here, but I won't be posting a rejection (for now...), so take that as you please.
  8. trickroom

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    He just posted it to try and see if it can pass QC. Outright rejection seems a bit too much. If it has been tested and decided that Gyarados just isn't good enough, then you can remove it. Gyarados isn't a Sturdy Magnezone set, and even that is rejected fairly.

    I don't know who put back Gyarados into the threat list, but it wasn't me. I do think it should go in though :)

    CB Gyarados can beat Rayquaza and some Arceus one-on-one. Intimidate is a cool ability even when you using CB, Gyarados has ok bulk, good enough to survive on Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock. Earthquake 3HKOes Ferrothorn, and nearly OHKOes Dialga. If non Specs Dialga lacks Thunder it will likely lose to Gyarados, a bad example but it is true.

    Outrage is risky but Gyarados can remove Giratina or Giratina-O with it. Fair trade off for me.

    Surprisingly all of those physical monsters sammao mentioned besides Zekrom, loses to Gyarados. As far as I know Giratina does not use Outrage, and Chansey will die to Waterfall before Seismic Toss can kill Gyarados. Even if Giratina uses Outrage it does piss low damage to Gyarados, especially with Intimidate.

    Taunt Gyarados is good enough to deserve an analysis. QC APPROVED
    I already listed the calculations earlier.

    <Jibaku> i see
    <Jibaku> this whole gyarados thing
    <Jibaku> is just an elaborate plan
    <Jibaku> to bring back all the old uber players
    <Jibaku> nah im not rejecting it
    <Jibaku> i would love to

    Gyarados does walls Blaziken, and it beats Ho-Oh one-on-one, at least 50% chance if you switch in on it. Scarf Kyogre can't 2HKO Gyarados besides Thunder or full power Water Spout, you can't switch in directly but Kyogre can't either because Gyarados can actually phaze things unlike Gliscor. Against Grass Arceus, Gliscor gets OHKOed, Gyarados beats it with Toxic + Taunt or Dragon Tail, works better if you are using Specially Defensive. Gliscor gets flattened by any Draco Meteor even from those of Hydreigon. Lets not forget Fighting Arceus or even some Dialga without Thunder. Gyarados beats both with Toxic or Earthquake. Earthquake is slashed in the Taunt set and you beat Dialga with it. Gliscor gets 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse sir. Reshiram needs Draco Meteor or Specs Sun Blue Flare to 2HKO Gyarados, the resistances does matter. And wow you finally posted Fireburn! Oh, I don't mind you hating it but at least try it out before rejecting, isn't that the QC team's role.

    Why must Great Sage do this :[
  9. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    gdi

    Also do I really need to point out how terrible of an idea it is to lock yourself into an unSTABed Outrage
  10. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Just saying that Gyarados only has the second strongest Waterfall in the game. Adaptability Crawduant outdamages it by quite a bit. (not viable whatsoever but I felt like I needed to point that out) I still don't think Gyarados is viable for the same reasons as before but meh
  11. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    I agree with the first set going up on sight because it has some use versus classic stall teams, and some notable niches over gliscor that I mentioned earlier such as intimidate, a much more threatening STAB, the ability to survive a decent amount of SpAs, and a not necessarily better, but very different and very useful set of resists, but the band set is pretty poor.

    Point in case, I do not qc approve the band set. It's way too weak to ferrothorn, sr weak, and many other things. It's coverage just isn't strong enough.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Just a question, but how does the first set break stall when it is SR weak and lacks recovery, unlike Gliscor which is SR neutral and has passive recovery? Any pokemon that is considered as a stallbreaker has reliablle recovery in order to be able to break stall consistently. Common stall Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Dialga, Arceus-Grass, and defensive Kyogre all handily beat Gyarados too.
  13. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    This thread is seriously rustling my jimmies. (open)
    I 100% fail to see how Tauntrados is better than Gliscor.

    1. Gliscor has Poison Heal. Poison Heal is a big deal. Gliscor can't be Toxiced, paralyzed, burned, slept, or otherwise incapacitated while Gyarados has its effectiveness severely hampered by random Will-O-Wisps, Scalds, faster Toxics (Lugia does outspeed this thing) TWaves, Jirachi Body Slams. Furthermore, Poison Heal itself is a huge advantage - it gives Gliscor double Gyarados's passive recovery. Gliscor isn't even weak to SR, which that Gliscor will be sticking around a lot longer than Gyarados will.

    2. Gliscor actually walls things. Offensive things. Groudon can't do anything unless it has Fire Blast, and even that can be PP stalled. Zekrom (who is normally a giant pain in the rear for defensive teams that Gyarados only exacerbates) loses unless it has Draco Meteor. Giratina folds to this thing (unlike Gyarados, Gliscor can switch in on it thanks to Poison Heal). Ferrothorn loses 1 vs. 1. Terrakion can't hope to break it without +2 LO Stone Edge. Heatran can't touch Gliscor at all. Excadrill is usually going to be screwed as well. Forry can't even pivot switch out of Gliscor because it's immune to Volt Switch (which Gyarados is, lol, weak to). In contrast, Gyarados gets owned by every single of these things, and it is pretty much going to be deadweight against any competently built offensive team. And before you scream "Intimidate", Gliscor's base 125 Defense goes a long way towards closing that gap.

    3. Gyarados's extra resistances don't mean anything. Water? You really gonna bring this thing in on Kyogre, Palkia, Manaphy, or Arceus? Fire? Does Gyarados want to risk a Sacred Fire burn from Ho-Oh or getting exploded by Reshiram or Blaziken regardless of what it tries to do? Steel? When was the last time you saw an SD Scizor? Ice neutrality? Specs Kyurem-W Ice Beam kills Gyarados just as hard as it kills Gliscor. Simply put, Gyarados's extra resistances don't mean anything when it can't wall anything that uses those types of moves in Ubers. Gliscor even has better synergy with rain teams than Gyarados, providing a useful immunity to Electric-type attacks, and its neutrality to Rock means it can check Terrakion.

    4. Gliscor's usefulness stems from the fact that so few things can shut him down. Manaphy in Rain. Xatu. HP Ice Bronzong. Refresh Arceus. Those are Gliscor's counters, full stop. Gyarados is checked by practically the whole metagame - every relevant offensive threat can OHKO or 2HKO it with STAB attacks, Thunder, or Stone Edge. Groudon, Terrakion, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai, the Kyurem-W's, Shaymin-S, Palkia, Dialga, Giratina-O, the Lati twins, pretty much any Arceus forme, Blaziken, Rayquaza, Salamence, Reshiram, Zekrom...this list is huge, man, and many of these are also seen on stall teams as well. It doesn't matter if Gyarados has limited utility against Classic Stall if it is useless against everything else.

    And before we play the "special bulk card" and compare it to Dialga or something, bear in mind that Dialga lacks a quad weakness to a very common special attack (Thunder) and has several million resistances. And isn't weak to SR.

    Now trickroom, I don't mean to sound too harsh here, but Gyarados is just honestly bad in Ubers. You are a kind of demigod at this game who is capable of making most things work just because of your sheer ability, and I really respect you for that. I really do, bro. But Gyarados just doesn't cut it. :(

    (Unless, of course, your goal was to get me to post, in which case...you win, sir.)
  14. gookie

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    [qc]3/3[/qc]

    EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS POKEMON IS FANTASTIC

    I HAVE SEEN IT SLAY MANY RAYQUAZAS

    OUTSTALL MANY A GRASS ARCEUS

    DESTROY MANY A SAND TEAM

    FUCK THIS POKEMON IS GOOD
  15. polop

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    I've been meaning to post for a while but weather over here is being how it should've been on 2012 x_X.

    A stall breaker is capable of forcing an enemy to stop stalling by preventing him from phazing or statusing a mon via Roar, Substitute + boosting move, Refresh, or Taunt. Gyarados gets Taunt and can use it to enhance its stall breaking capabilities since it can actually prevent things from recovering and limit things to using only one move.

    That being said most of the things you put don't actually "stop" Gyarados. The best thing Ferrothorn can do is release Power Whips after its been intimidated. If it doesn't switch it risks being setup, as it can't leech seed or setup hazards because of Taunt. Grass Arceus risks being Toxiced and cannot Recover easily from this especially with Taunt. Gyarados's increased Special Bulk and resistances is key when going against Grass Arceus and Kyogre, as it allows the fish to stomach STAB Judgments and Scald that would otherwise severly damage Gliscor. Kyogre doesn't fare any better then Grass Arceus. The best it can do is hope for a Scald burn as Toxic damage accumulates due to its inability to rest because of Taunt. The same thing happens to Giratina, Lugia, Chansey, and even some support Arceus forms.

    Gliscor has the same issue with Ice Beam, which is arguably more common, but that doesn't make it unviable right?

    Does anyone know what the message originally said ?_?

    They wall different things X_X. You've ignored Gyarados's biggest asset which is access to Taunt AND Dragon Tail. Gyara unlike Gliscor can actually take a Judgment or Ice Beam from Support Arceus and cripple back with Toxic or just phaze the thing out. Access to Dragon Tail lets it serve as an emergency ekiller check when combined with intimidate. This thing can check Cro Kyogre (rest talk CM, although no one uses that much anymore...), CM Lugia, stuff with Sub bothers Gliscor, not Gyarados who has STAB Waterfall to destroy the subs and Dragon Tail to phaze. It even gets Roar if you really hate Substitute...

    Just saying, I don't mind if this is rejected or approved by QC, that's their job. The chaos made by this analysis scares me though (so much to the point where I regret posting it X_X) :(. Can this analysis go through QC like a normal analysis please :P? Also CB should be removed because Syrim said so (and Ferrothorn is mean :(). That and I forgot to add Roar in OO.
  16. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Here is Gyarados when put up against the Top 25...

    Show Hide

    | 1 | Kyogre | 34809 | 42.027% | 29562 | 44.510% |

    If Kyogre has Thunder you get outsped and OHKOed. If it has Scald and you get Burned then Gyarados is screwed. There are very few Kyogres that don't run either move.

    | 2 | Arceus | 26452 | 31.937% | 20346 | 30.634% |

    252 +1 Atk Life Orb Arceus (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 248 HP/184 Def Gyarados (+Def) : 60.56% - 71.25% (2 hits to KO). It cannot switch in, and all it can really do is phaze it out, and it loses. By that point Gyarados is almost dead.

    | 3 | Groudon | 22874 | 27.617% | 19871 | 29.919% |

    It summons the sun, has a massive physical bulk, and its Stone Edge hurts. Gyarados loses to offensive variants, but it does OK against defensive variants since Gyarados cannot take much damage there. But at that point Gliscor is a better option to take on Groudon.

    | 4 | Mewtwo | 20312 | 24.524% | 15323 | 23.071% |

    Thunder is used quite a bit, Taunt is sometimes used, and a Substitute can survive a Dragon Tail, which is pathetic.

    | 5 | Palkia | 17789 | 21.478% | 13581 | 20.448% |

    Thunder is used on almost all Pakias.

    | 6 | Darkrai | 17601 | 21.251% | 14542 | 21.895% |

    Darkrai can use it as set-up fodder. In addition, a +2 Life Orb Dark Pulse will OHKO after Stealth Rock, a problem considering how much of a threat Darkrai is to stall teams.

    | 7 | Rayquaza | 15969 | 19.280% | 12178 | 18.336% |

    Rayquaza can do 43% minimum with LO Outrage factoring in Intimidate. Factor in Stealth Rock or a likely boost you get 2HKOed. It also takes tons of damage from Draco Meteor.

    | 8 | Lugia | 14653 | 17.691% | 11075 | 16.675% |

    Stalls you out unless you run Roar. Not even Rain boosted Waterfalls can get through the standard Subs 50% of the time.

    | 9 | Dialga | 14435 | 17.428% | 11995 | 18.060% |

    Sometimes carries Thunder, and its Draco Meteors hurt.

    | 10 | Ferrothorn | 13693 | 16.532% | 11791 | 17.753% |

    Gyarados walls it and it walls Gyarados too.

    | 11 | Forretress | 13604 | 16.425% | 11559 | 17.404% |

    Gyarados takes only around like 35% from Volt Switch but being immune to Toxic makes Gyarados do little against it.

    | 12 | Kyurem-White | 12355 | 14.917% | 9033 | 13.601% |

    You get OHKOed by a (Timid) Specs Draco Meteor. Everything else will probably 2HKO Gyarados other than Fusion Flare.

    | 13 | Genesect | 12160 | 14.681% | 10467 | 15.760% |

    Hey look another user of Thunder!

    | 14 | Ho-Oh | 11298 | 13.641% | 8845 | 13.317% |

    If you get burned by Ho-oh you're screwed but Gyarados otherwise does OK against Ho-oh.

    | 15 | Arceus-Ghost | 10883 | 13.140% | 8477 | 12.763% |

    You really can't do anything back to it other than use Toxic

    | 16 | Giratina | 10793 | 13.031% | 8476 | 12.762% |

    You can stall it out with Toxic + Taunt, but so can a lot of other Pokemon like Gliscor.

    | 17 | Giratina-Origin | 10570 | 12.762% | 8368 | 12.599% |

    Generally Giratina-O is doing more to you than you do to it. Not having recovery doesn't help this scenario.

    | 18 | Blaziken | 10326 | 12.467% | 7970 | 12.000% |

    Well you counter Blaziken at the very least.

    EDIT: In the sun you don't even counter Blaziken. And you have Intimidate. And you resist Flare Blitz. Pathetic.

    | 19 | Excadrill | 9750 | 11.772% | 7450 | 11.217% |

    Assuming Adamant, a +1 Rock Slide after Stealth Rock will cause the listed spread to get OHKOed. So much for stopping Sand.

    | 20 | Deoxys-Speed | 9183 | 11.087% | 8701 | 13.101% |

    You won't see this thing outside of the lead posistion most likely.

    | 21 | Zekrom | 9162 | 11.062% | 6881 | 10.360% |

    STAB Electric user - oh the horror!

    | 22 | Deoxys-Attack | 8716 | 10.523% | 7119 | 10.719% |

    Its hard-pressed to survive a LO Psycho Boost (81.25% chance of a OHKO), and a LO -2 Thunder still OHKOs if it has the move.

    | 23 | Latias | 7239 | 8.740% | 5644 | 8.498% |

    Faster, so it can Calm Mind before Taunt happens, it has Thunder to OHKO, and can still do a lot of damage with Soul Dew-boosted moves even without Thunder.

    | 24 | Shaymin-Sky | 6916 | 8.350% | 5159 | 7.768% |

    Cannot break its Substitute and it quickly gets worn down by some powerful Seed Flares and also Leech Seed (it could just use Leech Seed instead of a Substitute, since Gyarados cannot do much to it)

    | 25 | Tyranitar | 6902 | 8.333% | 6369 | 9.589% |

    Despite being weak to Waterfall, a STAB Stone Edge still does a lot of damage and when it sets up a Sandstorm, Gyarados has legit no recovery at all.


    It does pretty dang bad almost every Pokemon within the Top 25, and even the ones that don't beat it can still threaten it other than... well... nothing. Also, I really don't understand how you can QC approve yourself...
  17. Bossness

    Bossness

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    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Gyarados in sun: 242-285 (61.57 - 72.51%)

    No, not really.
  18. trickroom

    trickroom
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    You OHKO Blaziken back with Earthquake. At the least, you Dragon Tail it out and he still dies after LO recoil. What else stops Blaziken and survives two hits lol in the sun...Giratina only that.

    Comparing one pokemon vs other is not the way to judge it's' usefulness for me. If that is the case, Gyarados beats Kabutops, Kingdra, Ho-Oh, Arceus, Rayquaza, Salamence and a lot of others one-on-one. Why are you assuming Gyarados switches into all the threats, and Life Orb Extremekiller with Adamant, since when that is used?

    Kabutops loses to every single Uber one-on-one too, cant switch in and you say it sucks? No, Low Kick does not OHKO Arceus, Arceus OHKOes you. The fact is Gyarados is now approved and will be removed only if the rest of the QC team strongly disagrees ( which I don't mind ). Please actually test before you continue this Gyarados discussion. Otherwise I will just delete posts like this, look its Gyarados lol. Jibaku didn't want me to post logs so I wait for what they think.

    EDIT: What mr.lol said is true, no exaggeration at all. Don't expect Gyarados to be Kyogre level but it is good enough to deserve an analysis.
  19. polop

    polop
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    ?_? You don't examine a Pokemon's abilities by putting them against the top 25. If we were to use Gliscor it would fail against the same Pokemon (except Forry and Excadrill (MAYBE Tyranitar).

    That and some of the statements made actually aren't true...

    If its running Scald its running Rest Talk + Roar or Rest Talk + CM, in which case Gyarados prevents the Resting and poison damage accumulates, forcing a switch or it can force its own switch via Dragon Tail. Offensive variants that do use Thunder can walk over it though.

    0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia in rain: 100-118 (24.03 - 28.36%) -- possible 5HK0, it breaks through around 70% of the time, not 50%. Secondly Substitute is a non-issue as Taunt prevents Lugia from setting it up again. The moment Lugia is without a Sub it will be Toxiced or forced to switch. How is Lugia outstalling Gyarados? It can't poison it or phaze it unless Dragon Tail but Gyarados can use its own Dragon Tail and outspeed too.

    EQ lets you bypass this issue entirely. Alternatively, you can phaze it out and begin stacking up Spikes damage with Dragon Tail. OR you can switch out while it stands there and spams STABs resisted by it or Dragons everywhere. Oh, and its weakened by intimidate.

    Genesect rarely runs Thunders in Ubers. In fact it far more commonly runs its physically based scarf set with Ice Beam for attacking Rayquaza which coincidentally hurts Gliscor. Ironically, Gyarados walls the scarf set and strikes back with STAB Waterfalls.

    Which is really the samething as killing it / preventing it from threatening your stall team completely, you can phaze it after it gets +1 from Calm Mind.

    ?_? Have you seen the amount it does to Gliscor / Ho-oh?

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Gliscor in sun: 575-678 (162.42 - 191.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh in sun: 394-465 (94.93 - 112.04%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

    Simply put Blaziken is something that can not be walled by anything but a Giratina in the sun. Oh wait Roar lets it bypass that... but you can still tank a hit and OHKO with EQ so....

    Aside that why using the top 15 as an accurate list actually isn't a wise way to see the effectiveness of something. Take Gliscor:
    Gliscor (open)

    | 1 | Kyogre | 34809 | 42.027% | 29562 | 44.510% |

    Outsped and OHKOed by Offensive Kyogre, Defensive versions with Scald still OHKO you.

    | 2 | Arceus | 26452 | 31.937% | 20346 | 30.634% |

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 248 HP/184 Def Gyarados (+Def) : 79.37-93.5% (37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). It cannot switch in without dying / crippling itself.

    | 3 | Groudon | 22874 | 27.617% | 19871 | 29.919% |

    Walls all versions barring Swords Dance and support versions with Fire Blast.

    | 4 | Mewtwo | 20312 | 24.524% | 15323 | 23.071% |

    Ice Beam OHKOes. If Ice Beam isn't used sun boosted Fire Blast OHKOes too.

    | 5 | Palkia | 17789 | 21.478% | 13581 | 20.448% |

    Surf is used on most palkias which OHKOes. If not Surf, Draco Meteor picks up the same KO.

    | 6 | Darkrai | 17601 | 21.251% | 14542 | 21.895% |

    It can switch into Dark Void, OK. You still get 2HKOed by Life Orbed non-boosted Dark Pulse 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 222-263 (62.71 - 74.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

    | 7 | Rayquaza | 15969 | 19.280% | 12178 | 18.336% |

    You get OHKOed by Draco Meteor. You can also take an Outrage but at +1 it OHKOes after Stealth Rock. Similarly, +0 Outrage does huge damage, about the same amount Ray's Overheat does to it, it 2HKOes. 252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Outrage vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Gliscor: 226-266 (63.84 - 75.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    | 8 | Lugia | 14653 | 17.691% | 11075 | 16.675% |

    Ice Beam OHKOes. If it isn't running Ice Beam then yeah you wall it, but you can't break its subs but its a (literally) sitting duck at that point.

    | 9 | Dialga | 14435 | 17.428% | 11995 | 18.060% |

    Draco Meteors hurt. 56+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 312-367 (88.13 - 103.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    That was support Dialga, not offensive variants which don't even need SR.

    | 10 | Ferrothorn | 13693 | 16.532% | 11791 | 17.753% |

    Gliscor walls it but its subs get broken by Power Whip and Gyro Ball

    | 11 | Forretress | 13604 | 16.425% | 11559 | 17.404% |

    You get Rapid Spinned. HP Ice variants beat you. Outside of that you wall it.

    | 12 | Kyurem-White | 12355 | 14.917% | 9033 | 13.601% |

    You get OHKOed by Ice Beam and Draco Meteor.

    | 13 | Genesect | 12160 | 14.681% | 10467 | 15.760% |

    Hey look another user of Ice Beam!

    | 14 | Ho-Oh | 11298 | 13.641% | 8845 | 13.317% |

    You can't break its Subs, but you can Toxic subless versions! Sun boosted Sacred Fires hurt though.

    | 15 | Arceus-Ghost | 10883 | 13.140% | 8477 | 12.763% |

    You really can't do anything back to it other than use Toxic but you get OHKOed by +1 Judgment before that.

    | 16 | Giratina | 10793 | 13.031% | 8476 | 12.762% |

    You can stall it out with Toxic + Taunt, but so can a lot of other Pokemon like Gyarados.

    | 17 | Giratina-Origin | 10570 | 12.762% | 8368 | 12.599% |

    Draco Meteor from Mix Tina OHKOes. You can't touch the sub variants.

    | 18 | Blaziken | 10326 | 12.467% | 7970 | 12.000% |

    You get OHKOed by +2 Flare Blitz in the sun.

    | 19 | Excadrill | 9750 | 11.772% | 7450 | 11.217% |

    Assuming Adamant, a +2 Iron Head OHKOes.

    | 20 | Deoxys-Speed | 9183 | 11.087% | 8701 | 13.101% |

    You won't see this thing outside of the lead posistion most likely, but if you see it you get Taunted and Spikes laid on you.

    | 21 | Zekrom | 9162 | 11.062% | 6881 | 10.360% |

    Mix variants will OHKO with Draco Meteor. Other variants are walled. Well, except Choice Band seeing as Outrage does, Outrage: 80.79 - 95.19%, LO variants are tough too, 252+ Atk Life Orb Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Gliscor: 250-294 (70.62 - 83.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    | 22 | Deoxys-Attack | 8716 | 10.523% | 7119 | 10.719% |

    Its gets OHKOed by +0 Psycho Boost and Ice Beam at -2.

    | 23 | Latias | 7239 | 8.740% | 5644 | 8.498% |

    Draco Meteor OHKOes. Dragon Pulse 2HKOes, Surf OHKOes

    | 24 | Shaymin-Sky | 6916 | 8.350% | 5159 | 7.768% |

    Seed Flare from non-Life Orb variants does an alarming amount, 252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 235-277 (66.38 - 78.24%) . Its not like you can break its sub anyway.

    | 25 | Tyranitar | 6902 | 8.333% | 6369 | 9.589% |

    Ice Beam, if used, OHKOes. If not you safely wall it.

    Using the top 15 as a reference list makes it look like Gliscor sucks, but we all know that's not the case. Simply put, the only time using the top 15 is helpful is when comparing sweepers, and Gyarados and Gliscor are not sweepers, rather stall breakers.
  20. gookie

    gookie Administrator
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    YOU WILL NOT REMOVE CHOICE BAND BECAUSE IT IS STRONG AND DESTROYS RAYQUAZA.

    IT CAN BE THE SECOND SET.

    TRICKROOM I NEED YOU TO ELABORATE ON THE 'MUSCULAR CARP' SET.

    HOLY SHIT THIS IS A GOOD POKEMON.
  21. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Muscular Carp is in Other Options because it is decently bulk, has access to Double Team and Toxic. Now Evasion Clause is lifted, so Gyarados can abuse it. You can't touch Muscular Carp especially when it has Taunt so you can't phaze it. Alternatively, it can use Bulldoze to lower Speed and spam Double Team.

    GYARADOS IS POPPY's SLAVE, and Poppy did really saw Gyarados raped Rayquaza at least 10 times. This is a good pokemon on its own, but Ubers just make it less awesome but still viable.

    CB hits hard and is still bulkier than most shits due to Intimidate. See damage calculations. Those raping Grass Arceus and sand teams are true stories of my experience with Gyarados, for those who don't believe you can obviously ask Poppy's friends.
  22. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    Ugh if this is serious... well I tried DD, CB, and that phazer thing in BW. The only one I would EVER consider for an analysis is the first set, and even then... I can't say I ever felt like Gyarados was an okay choice, it felt more like "jesus Im using this just in case trickroom makes a thread". I really don't know how this gen has changed things for it, so I'm not going to reject this right away... but I can't say its looking hopeful either.
  23. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    There is no way that this is not a troll. I am exceptionally disappointed in Poppy's behavior in this thread. Furthermore, if this same, or a substantially similar, Gyarados is posted again, the C&C staff will take further, possibly disciplinary, action. I am leaving this thread locked here temporarily, before moving it to Locked / Outdated Analyses.
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