Pokémon Gyarados

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by azureleaf17, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    [​IMG]
    Pokedex Number
    - 130
    Type - Water/Flying (ME: Water/Dark)
    Base Stats - 95 HP / 125 Atk / 79 Def / 60 SpAtk / 100 SpDef / 81 Spe
    Base Stats (ME) - 95 HP / 155 Atk / 109 Def / 70 SpAtk / 130 SpDef / 81 Spe

    Ability - Intimidate [Lowers the foe's Attack stat]
    Ability - Moxie [Boosts the Attack stat after knocking out any Pokémon]
    Ability (ME) - Mold Breaker [Moves can be used on the target regardless of its Abilities]

    Notable Moves:
    Taunt
    Dragon Dance
    Waterfall
    Bounce
    Stone Edge
    Earthquake
    Ice Fang
    Dragon Tail

    Overview
    It seems like Generation V ended just before we could see Gyarados's true potential. It was often eschewed in favor of its dragonlike brethren, but Water/Flying was still a very good STAB combination and it was blessed with two fantastic abilities, one which helped with switching in and the other which helped with staying there. Many advanced players argued in favor of its bulky Substitute + Dragon Dance set, which took advantage of its numerous resistances and good bulk to set up quickly and easily quite a bit of OU. Electric-type attacks, however, were the biggest thorn in its side; there were quite a few Pokemon who could still outspeed Gyarados at +1 and OHKO right back with Thunder or Thunderbolt.

    Generation VI has been a mixed blessing for Gyarados. With rain weakened, Gyarados can no longer reliably smash teams with rain-boosted, +1 STAB Waterfalls (with a chance to flinch), but neither does it have to fear 100% accurate Thunders in the rain. The drop in power of said Thunders from 120 to 110 and Thunderbolt from 95 to 90, while minor, may help it to stick around for the single turn it needs to become terrifying. But the biggest and most noticeable addition to its small but powerful bag of tricks is its Mega Evolution, which trades in a quad weakness to Electric-type attacks for a tremendous boost to its defenses and Attack. Now Electric-types will have to think twice upon switching in, lest they come in while it Mega Evolves, taking only 2x damage with a 30% boost to its Special Defense before striking back with a Dragon Dance- and Mega Evolvution-boosted Earthquake. Gyarados was a Pokemon gaining popularity in the closing phases of Generation V, and hopefully that trend will continue in a new metagame.

    Mega Gyarados (RestTalk Tank)
    Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
    Ability: Intimidate (Mold Breaker)
    IVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
    Nature: Impish
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Gyarados's new toys can be put to use alongside a GSC-esque moveset to become one of the best new users of the RestTalk strategy in the metagame. Though mono-attackers are usually frowned upon, Mold Breaker meas that nothing is immune to its solitary STAB, including Pokemon with Water Absorb and Storm Drain, and nothing is going to enjoy taking even a resisted hit off a boosted 155 base Attack stat. Intimidate helps it to come in and tank a hit before Mega Evolving with either Rest or Dragon Dance. Although it cannot use Leftovers, its tremendous bulk and dual typing (six resistances and one immunity) allows it to take hits extremely well, and RestTalk gives it the recovery it needs. It can go with 252 SpDef and a Calm nature instead for a specially based tank as well.

    Mega Gyarados (Offensive Dragon Dance)
    Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
    Ability: Intimidate / Moxie (Mold Breaker)
    IVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Nature: Adamant / Jolly
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake / Stone Edge / Substitute / Payback / Bounce
    - Earthquake / Stone Edge / Substitute / Payback / Bounce

    A Generation V classic, updated to fit the times. Gyarados trades in a bit of power from Life Orb for a bit more longevity because of lack of recoil:

    Life Orb vs. Mega Evolution (open)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 134-160 (38.06 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 121-144 (34.37 - 40.9%) -- 58.06% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 203-239 (56.7 - 66.75%) -- guaranteed 2HK
    252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 181-214 (50.55 - 59.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (These calcs aren't meant to prove anything besides the amount of power it loses for the amount of bulk gained through Mega Evolving.)


    It's still powerful, still dangerous, and still as good as it was last generation, and Mold Breaker gives it a little bit of extra oomph as well. Intimidate > Moxie just because it gives it that extra chance to set up, but Moxie is still extremely powerful because of the snowball effect it can have for the opponent. Payback is now a mildly viable option because of the new Dark STAB, but it usually has an undesirable effect with Dragon Dance.

    Bulky Dragon Dance
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate / Moxie
    IVs: 88 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 168 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
    - Substitute / Taunt

    Gyarados's arguably best set from Generation V makes a return, indirectly aided by the threat of Mega Evolving. However, regular Gyarados boasts three less weaknesses to Mega Gyarados's, and can also hold Leftovers to give it more time to set up Substitute. Also, with the threat of a Mega Evolution always hanging over the opponent's head, it gives Gyarados just a little bit more of a mind game to play, given that its retyping upon Mega Evolving actually gives it a very different set of checks and counters. EVs will be tweaked from the older generation, but the nature and IVs listed allow it to outspeed neutral-natured Base-130s after a Dragon Dance while the strange split of HP and Defense give it a Leftovers number.

    Final Thoughts:
    Here's to hoping that a Pokemon that just got better and better from its rather lackluster inception in RBY continues to see use in the future! Just as every Mega Evolution has given us new toys to play with, Gyarados has become a very interesting prospect. Although its role as a extremely threatening set-up monster hasn't changed, the way in which it can do so has been improved through its defenses, and it could be even better than before. Let us discuss!
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  2. Swamp-Rocket

    Swamp-Rocket screw economics!
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    I really don't like Gyara's Mega evo for a lot of reasons.

    Compared to Water/Flying, Water/Dark is honestly a bad defensive typing despite having 6 resistances. Instead of being weak to Electric and Rock you are weak to Electric, Fighting, Bug, and Grass, and Fairy (two of which Gyarados resists), don't have an immunity to Ground, have an even more unreliable STAB (lol bite what a joke), and the only resistances you get to condensate for it are Psychic (which usually have something like Focus Blast), Ghost (Gengar also carries Focus Blast), and Dark (rare outside of Tyranitar tbh)

    Mold Breaker also isn't really that useful because SubDD already sets up all over Gastrodon and nothing else is really immune to water. It maybe helps against Rotom-W if you carry Earthquake but that's honestly the extent of it. Also, RestTalk is pretty bad since so much can honestly wear it down due to the myriad of weaknesses, its definitely not its best set this generation.

    I still think Gyarados is good but its Mega-Evo is underwhelming.
  3. -Nitro-

    -Nitro-

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    For those who still aren't aware, Intimidate does NOT reduce attack 2 stages. That was a mistake on Serebii's part, because they forgot to include Simple. Just gonna get that out of the way first.

    Thank you for this. I was about to make one myself, but after a physics midterm, I didn't feel like more math for the EVs.

    Gyarados will be useful, as usual. I do like how that mono-attacker set looks, actually. However, I'm much more likely to stick with regular Gyarados. Mostly because I don't believe that the Mega Evolution for him offers up enough to take up the mega slot, when you have pokemon who make key uses of it like Blastoise and Gengar.

    Dragon Dance is a staple on almost any Gyarados set, of course, Intimidate, good typing on a lot of things, allows him an easy time setting up, and water is an amazing offensive type. I do wish he got a better flying type move than bounce, though. I still prefer running EQ or Stone edge over bounce.

    Taunt gives him a lot of new options as well against some of the new pokemon, particularly against one of the emerging threats in Aegislash. Water / flying lets him resist sacred sword and Iron head from Aegislash, taunt prevents SD and King's shield, and EQ hits him hard.
    ItsRainingGravy and Talonflame like this.
  4. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Fallen Voice
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    Gyarados does receive crunch this time around, doesn't it? it's a b it better than payback for a dragon dance set.
  5. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
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    Yeah, agreeing with Swamp-Rocket. Using the Mega Stone really limits the amount of opportunities Gyarados can set up, and in return for using it, Gyarados only gains a few notable things. I only find its Mega evolution best for an Offensive Dragon Dance set, where Gyarados's increased Attack can act as a substitute for Life Orb without the recoil.
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  6. -Nitro-

    -Nitro-

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    Does he? I sure hope he does. STAB waterfall and STAB crunch could have me actually trying some stuff with the mega form.
  7. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer
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    Mega gyara is a difficult case on the one hand the increase in bulk and attack is nice and complement his role as a bulky set-up sweeper quite well, but 81 base speed was slow in Gen 5 and Gen 6 isn't going to be more kind. What really bugs me though is the type change Water/flying was a brilliant typing the 4x electric weakness sucked, but it was well worth the fighting and bug resist that allowed it to switch into top threats like Scizor/keldeo etc. while is Water/dark is nice for offensive coverage (especially since steel doesn't resists Dark anymore) if it doesn't get crunch in some way now it will be impossible to make use out of its new typing since bite isn't exactly a good stab and defensivly Water/Dark is pretty mediocre. I think sometimes it might be more practical to mega evolove after you have set-up a few dragon dances and then mega evolve when you go on a sweep and need the extra power or maybe don't even mega evolve at all if you see an opposing Breloom of something.
    The Rain nerf also kinda sucks for him, but thats the case for every water type/rain abuser so lets just be happy they found a good way to nerf weather.
  8. Prophet

    Prophet

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    First set in the OP is Bold. Surely you mean Impish, so you might want to fix that.
  9. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Mega Gyarados is meant for offense DD. Random electric attacks no longer cut your sweep short, while Mold Breaker + Waterfall and Crunch which got a nice buff this gen(if it gets it) means you don't have to rely on Bounce for coverage, which isn't that good on the offense DD set. SR becomes much more managable if you are forced out. And hey, more attack without LO recoil is always nice on a boosting set. Mach Punch weakness sucks, but it has the bulk to tank it now(and alot of things).
  10. Camisado

    Camisado

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    Do boosts carry when you mega evo?

    I mean is there going to be some applications where it makes more sense to Dragon Dance and then MegaEvo, depending on what your facing? Also, how does mega evo'ing affect Rest/Sleep Talk? Can you at all?
  11. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I actually might prefer the mega-evolution as a rest-talker because it lacks a SR-weakness + it has increased bulk and attack. However, the loss of the flying type now makes it weak to fighting type rather than resting them which Gyarados mainly did. So idk, I feel that it will have a niche though somewhere, a bulky water with intimidate isn't something you gloss over.
  12. Wazzup360

    Wazzup360

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    From reading all this, gyarados his only real good mega set is the one for offensive DD, with posibility to MEVO later with the type change in mind. This comparing with his other sets makes him unpredictable for other people. Even more so if you don't MEVO the first turn. Mind games can be played.

    The only question is to seal the faith of mega gyrados offensive DD, will it get crunch.
  13. ViktorNrv

    ViktorNrv

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    Honestly I think Mega Gyarados outclasses Gyarados on the defensive DD. First of all he can make use of Intimidate before Mega Evolving, Second he doesn't have a crippling weakness to electeric allowing him to stay in longer, lastly his boosted defenses allow his subs to stay intact against many other weak attacks. The Leftovers recovery isn't worth losing the boosted defenses and attack.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  14. -Nitro-

    -Nitro-

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    Mega gyarados doesn't take bonus Stealth Rock damage, for what it's worth.
  15. Kejmur

    Kejmur

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    I still rather use normal Gyarados for both kinds of RestTalk sets (Special and Physical defensive ones). For example 248 HP/252 SpD Positive Gyarados easily beats most Infernape variants (watch out on T-Punches and +2 Stone Edges though), Keldeo (resist his both main STABS with Flying/Water), easily swtiches on Water Specs users (now with rain nerfed), beating pretty much all Heatran sets (except rare TormentTran), GRENINJA without HP electric while also resisting U-Turn as a nice bonus and Gengar can't 2HKO back Gyarados even with Modest Specs Shadow Ball on SR, so yeah, invested Gyarados actually can take hits on special side as long as they are not electric type ones. If you want overkill special bulk (and with RestTalk it should be viable enough + rapid spin support), instead of Leftovers you may run Assault Vest and suddenly turn yourself into one of the best special tanks around (which I think actually is good idea, although lack of Leftovers may hurt). x4 Electric weakness hurts, but it's technically his only one on special, while resisting -Water, -Fire, -Fighting while taking neutral hits from example for -Grass attacks. While -Dark typing take SE hits for example on -Grass and -Fighting attacks, so you are not screwed by random Grass Knots/Energy Balls/Focus Blasts and you can easily take many of those while being neutral/resisting. Although I admit that immunity to Psychic and Ghost resist (also lack of SR weakness) are nice bonuses, but in overall I think trade-off is not worth it, although targets they both counter may look different (mostly psychic types in case of MegaGyarados).

    On Physical one - no competition from MegaGyarados. Fighting weakness is really, REALLY crippling weakness, which for example doesn't allow him to counter MegaLucario (no Stone Edge variants), something which normal Intimidate version does. Also you have no snowball chance in hell to check for example Conkeldurr as well, something that normal one can do as well (although you need to phaze it as you can't hurt bulk up versions). Of course Intimidate is another reason why Normal Gyarados is just better pick for this (yeah, you don't need to transform imediately, but loosing that Intimidate in later phase of the game may hurt like hell). Also nice bonus for normal Gyarados is this nice Earth attacks immunity, which is great coverage move for many physical attackers and as long as physical set-up dragons (with DD or SD) are forced to run Dragon Claw instead of Outrage for their dragon STAB (because of existance of Fairies, but we don't know yet if it's gonna happen) Defensive Normal Gyarados can easily check/counter all of them with Intimidate in as long as they don't smash him with +1 or +2 Outrages as he handles everything else easily (ok, Stone Edges are kind of a problem as well).

    So yeah - for RestTalk always normal one IMO unless for specific Psychic/Ghost counter (and with Ghost you may... actually be worse as you don't enjoy taking random Focus Blasts at all).
  16. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    You're supposed to use Leftovers for the extra Substitutes. It's too slow to be walling anything with a defensive DD set, he's still too slow and you're wasting offensive potential. Enjoy those Mach Punches, too.

    I was really hoping he'd be the obvious Water/Dragon with Levitate.
  17. Colonel M

    Colonel M BATON PASS IS NOT BROKEN MUSHARNA COUNTERS IT!!!1!
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    Mold Breaker helps a bit in a few situations:

    - Toxicroak was a major thorn to Waterfall / Bounce.
    - Helps hit Gastrodon for neutral STAB if running EQ.

    The ability also helps a little if you're using an offensive set and someone decides to throw Sturdy at you. Granted, you would probably be using MoxieDos and assuming a Dragon Dance / etc.

    I have looked and so far no Crunch for Gyarados. I went to the move reminder in Dendemille Town and have raised it thus far to Level 57 (the last move it learned was Hyper Beam @ 47).

    Overall, I doubt Mega Gyarados will be very popular. Bulky Dragon Dance sets were always preferred, though I guess Mega Gyarados could work on offensive Moxie sets.
    trickroom likes this.
  18. Yamborski

    Yamborski

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    I don't think Mega Gyarados's typing is a problem.

    DD on something you can force out. A Scizor locked into Bullet Punch etc.
    They switch in say, Scarf Rotom.
    No fucks given, Megavolve and sponge the Volt Switch with your better-than-Latias bulk and DD again.
    You are now faster than Scarf Latios (if Jolly), have +2 attack, Earhquake that can hit Rotom W, Waterfall that hits Gastrodon / Toxicroak.

    OR

    DD on something you can force out. A Scizor locked into Bullet Punch etc.
    They switch in say, Scarf Terrakion.
    Do they Stone Edge or Close Combat? 50/50 guess of course but if you megavolve or don't correctly you take a weaker hit and reach +2.
    You can now sweep with +2 non-mega Gyarados and potentially Moxie sweep.

    Mega Gyarados is good because it can completely flip its typing and stats at near instant speeds. It doesn't lose what Gyarados had (besides Leftovers), it simply gains more options. It can adapt to multiple situations more easily.
  19. Hardtimes

    Hardtimes

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    Just want to confirm that CRUNCH is NOT an egg move, attempted to breed it with drudgion who had crunch and it was a no go. Very disappointed in Game Freak on this one.
  20. Yamborski

    Yamborski

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    Do you really think Magikarp could learn Crunch?

    Well, Gyarados still gets Bite lol. Easily OHKOs Jellicent, Lati@s, Starmie, and 252 HP Celebi after Stealth Rock at +1. Granted it could do the same with Bounce, but... ah well. It's something I guess.
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  21. Hardtimes

    Hardtimes

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    Breeding Gyrados with Drudgion thinking that might have changed him in this gen to allow breeding of moves. No dice, I guess we have to hope for move tutor in the next game.
  22. TorchicBlaziken

    TorchicBlaziken

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    Anyone fully leveled him yet?
  23. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Protip: Magikarp doesn't learn any egg moves.

    More exactly, Magikarp doesn't really have moves at all.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Mega Gyarados will only be worth it if he learns Crunch. With a set of 252 Atk / 252 Spe Adamant and a moveset of Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Crunch / Earthquake, Mega Gyarados can get past many of the Pokemon against which normal Gyarados struggled against, such as Rotom-W (Mold Breaker Earthquake), Perish Song Celebi, physically defensive Jellicent (which could wall offensive DD sets), and Slowbro. Not only this, but Crunch + Mold Breaker Earthquake + Waterfall have perfect neutral coverage in OU. Also, with the Dark typing, Mega Gyarados can check Pokemon such as Swords Dance Aegislash and Sucker Punch Mega Mawile, which could be very useful for frail offensive teams lacking a resist to Ghost-type moves.

    However, this is the only role Mega Gyarados could take in OU. RestTalk sets on it are a joke for two reasons: No Intimidate (main reason why RestTalk Gyarados works in the first place) and bad defensive typing.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  25. Yamborski

    Yamborski

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    It OHKOs the first two with STAB boosted Bite. Do people even use Slowbro? Mega Gyarados imo will be used for the its ability to instantly change its typing and the massive sp def boost. Being able to take roughly a third the damage you previously did from Thunderbolts is pretty huge on something that effectively auto-wins at +2. Being weak to Mach Punch is lame, but don't megavolve if your opponent has a Breloom I guess.

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