1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Hail: Anti-weather (When was the last time you saw a good hail team?)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Aubade, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Aubade

    Aubade

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    This place seems completely swamped by people's teams so I can only hope mine gets a little attention as well. My intention is mostly to show people what hail teams are capable of, and put them up at the top, or at least just a little higher than they are now.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    1. Premise
    Hail is the most underused weather, if not the most underused field effect short of tailwind. This is a shame considering how hard hail is for other teams to counter, but at first glance hail offers little to benefit a team compared to the rest of the weathers that are now staple in the metagame.

    But actually, Hail is just as good as any other weather. Very few teams are going to pack Ice Types, meaning they'll always take damage every turn (in comparison, sandstorm's damage isn't too threatening as ground, rock and steel are all pretty common and don't take damage from it). Hail also removes all benefits that the other weather conditions have; although this can be said of all weathers unlike the rest hail won't abused against you.

    2. In-depth analysis
    A. Core
    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow @ Choice Band
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 58 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    - Brick Break

    Abomasnow isn't as much of a bad pokemon as you've been lead to believe either. It will force a switch or OHKO a Politoed with Wood Hammer and 2HKO any Hippowdon. It will also threaten Tyranitar with an OHKO, depending on the set it has (for example, Special Defensive), something you can predict by seeing which weather is up. Once you look past it's horrible weaknesses, Abomasnow also has good defences giving you a lot of chances to switch in again and do some damage. Regardless of this, Abomasnow's most important feature is it's Snow Warning.

    200 Spd EVs allow Abomasnow to outspeed any regular Politoed or Tyranitar set that doesn't have full speed investment, forcing a switch or killing them outright. Choice Scarf with full speed investment is another option, as it ensures that you will get a hit in on everything apart from a respectively Choice Scarf'd Tyranitar. Ninetales or any faster Tyranitar with Fire Blast (or any moveset) gives you a chance to switch into heatran, getting you a Flash Fire boost and from there you can either kill it with Earth Power or predict and kill everything else with boosted fire-type moves.

    As for the rest of the set, Ice Shard allows you to do some damage if you need to switch Abomasnow in to set up the weather again. It also allows Abomasnow to be a good revenge killer in combination with Choice Band. Earthquake is pretty much a filler move here but comes in handy sometimes. Brick Break is good enough and will stop any pokemon attempting to set up screens on you.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Overheat
    - Magma Storm
    - Earth Power
    - Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power

    Heatran pretty much makes this team. It can switch in on Ninetales or any other fire type/attack (such as Tyranitar's fire blast) and proceed to take the threat out with Earth Power. It's also a great revenge killer on the team as Overheat is able to take out most pokmeon that are threats to the team in one hit. Heatran operates fine under Hail, benefits from the boost in Sun, and won't take damage from Sandstorm. Although Heatran doesn't fare too well against water types that would operate under rainy day, they don't pose too much of a threat to him either.

    Magma Storm is a high power Stab move that allows Heatran to sweep without losing power like it would with Overheat. I realise most people would use another move due to the 1/4 chance to miss, but I prefer the higher damage and little bit extra from the move's trapping effect, which combined with hail can take out even bulky pokemon in one hit. Dragon Pulse is decent but mostly filler, and could be switched for a Hidden Power/etc.

    B. Main
    [​IMG]
    Walrein @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Surf/Stockpile

    I don't need to introduce Stallrein to you right? Leftovers/Ice Body heals 1/8 of it's hp per turn, that's 1/2 of a sub. Protect gives it a free turn, fully refunding the HP cost of Substitute. You then have the option to spam Substitute on a faster opponent, or get an attack in on a slower one. Toxic lets you rack up even more damage per turn. Surf is preferred over Blizzard as the team already has Blizzard users, and surf has more PP for long stall wars.

    Walrein can also pump it's defences up with Stockpile, which is pretty nice in some cases. That gives you the option to use Spit Up, although I wouldn't really suggest it. Steel types are a problem, but hey, Heatran deals with that.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-F @ Electric Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Dark Pulse
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    I can see why Rotom-F is never used compared to the other pokemon- Blizzard makes it too hard to take advantage of it's stab under most conditions, and ice isn't the best typing to make use of it's defensive bulk. Under hail however, Blizzard is a great stab move, and Rotom gets stab on the infamous BoltBeam (Blizzard in this case) combo.

    It's typing is far better than it looks, since Electric+Levitate gives it two resistances and a Stab for free, making it better than other Ice-Types that could fill the role of a blizzard user. It laughs in the face of Steel types as it isn't weak to their stabs at all, and can bring the pain with Hidden Power. Levitate also lets it ignore spikes, toxic spikes and earthquake which works well with the rest of the team. Electric gem is a little controversial but the boost in damage is nice to take out pokemon that would otherwise be able to wall you.

    [​IMG]
    Haxorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Brick Break

    Personally every team needs a pokemon that can take advantage of chances to setup, Haxorus is just a great fit for this team. This is the basic dragon dance set, and there's nothing wrong with it. Mould Breaker in particular takes care of a bunch of threats to the team, allowing earthquake to hit pokemon with Levitate among other things. I won't go on, because there isn't too much to say about a default set.

    C. Filler

    [​IMG]
    Dusknoir @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 18 SDef
    Brave Nature
    - Sleep Talk/Pain Split
    - Rest/Substitute
    - DynamicPunch/Focus Punch
    - Shadow Sneak

    Dusknoir is mostly on this team to screw with any fighting type pokemon who hit hard on the rest of the team. Shadow Sneak is nice enough and can mean a surprise kill on faster pokemon. RestTalk is what I've used so far, and is about as good as Pain Split (which isn't so great under hail).

    I can't find too much to redeem Dusknoir, but he hasn't been all that bad in practice. The ability to switch into what would be an OHKO for one of your pokemon and do a little damage is great, and although I'm sure there is another ghost type able to outperform Dusknoir but I haven't had too much time to try them all out.

    3. Team Strategy

    The main idea is to cause all kinds of hurt to other weather teams and prevent them from abusing their weather condition. That being said, the team is still effective against other teams that don't use weather. I usually send out Abomasnow first since it baits and overrides the weather of pokemon that outspeed it, and is a massive threat to pokemon that don't outspeed it. I've never had a situation where I've lost Abomasnow right at the start before cancelling the opponent's weather out. The team has a mix of offensive and defensive threats including Rotom-F and Walrein, both of which become extremely dangerous under hail despite being NU pokemon. One of the strong points is the ability to build up a lot of momentum with switch-ins from Heatran, Rotom-F and Dusknoir which all have immunities to moves which would otherwise be effective against the team. It takes good predicting to do this though, and one mistake could be pretty disastrous depending on the situation. Entry hazards don't bother the team too much despite lacking a rapid spinner, although Rotom-F is weak to stealth rocks it outspeeds a lot of pokemon, Walrein will regenerate the lost health back, etc.
    Even if you don't manage to win the weather war, the team can still perform alright under other weather conditions, although not ideally. Also hey, I've only lost 1/20 games with this team against a mixture of weather and non weather opponents, so I know it's effective when used right.
  2. snarfboywonder

    snarfboywonder

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    An extremely well made team. The only thing I have to offer is that HP Fire might be better on Rotom F, since most of the common steel types are 4x fire and the ones that aren't are still 2x weak to fire. Except Heatran of course
  3. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    573
    Hey,
    Its a soild hail team you've got here but some changes could defintily help you to win the weather war and further help your strategy. Some weakness's i noted were All fighting pokemon, espcially Scrafty and Conkelldurr with their dark type coverage moves to nail Ducknoir. Also you lack hazards of any sorts which makes DNite's multiscale that much easier to abuse.
    Ok now to changes My first recomeded change is Stealth Rock > Magma Storm on Heatran. Your team lacks hazards and even with a Scarf equipped Heatran makes a good SR setter. Next replace Dusknoir with SubDisable Gengar. Gengar fufills the Fighting immunity niche while suiting your teams Offensive playstyle better . Also to help win the weather war and add another fighting resist, consider running Tentacruel over Walrein. Abomasnow is hindered horribly by Hazard damage and Having Rapid Spin support can be the differance between you keeping your Hail up or Tyranitar and co from crashing the party. To boot Tentacruel adds some soild Resist's that your team would love to have and serves as a counter to rain should you lose the weather war. Finally consider giving Rotom-F the Choice Scarf and giving Heatran Leftovers. Heatran and Tentacruel can then form a good hazard setting group and the weakness to Earthquake is not very important as you have 2 levitate pokemon to patch that up if you take on Gengar and you still have Rotom-F if you don't. Rotom - F appreciates the Extra Speed and Heatran appreciates not being damaged by hail.
    With that GL, hope I helped. Sets below
    Show Hide

    Gengar @ Black Sludge
    Nature: Timid (+Spd - Atk)
    Trait: Levitate
    EV's: 252SpA / 4SpD / 252Spd
    -Substitute
    -Disable
    -Shadow Ball
    -Focus Blast

    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
    Nature: Bold (+Def - Atk)
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EV's: 252HP / 240Def / 16Spd
    -Rapid Spin
    -Toxic Spikes
    -Scald
    -Ice Beam
  4. Rwhite84

    Rwhite84

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    133
    On heatran try Hidden Power [Grass] > Magma Storm heatran doesn't need 2 fire moves and you can get a bunch of unexpecting gastrodons off guard
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    You could use Shadow Ball instead of Dark Pulse in your Rotom-F. Although nothing is immune to Dark Pulse, you have a chance to activate Justified with Dark Pulse, also, Shadow Ball gets neutral coverage on Fighting-types. Also, consider using Hidden Power Fire instead of Hidden Power Fighting, as with exception of Heatran, all OU Steel-types are weak to Fire, but many of them have a sub-type that makes them neutral to Fighting and/or Ground (and those that are weak to Ground generally carry Air Ballon).

    In your Heatran, instead of Dragon Pulse, use Hidden Power Ice. You get the same coverage against Dragon-types and some coverage against threats like Gliscor and Landorus. Also, most Dragon-types have a double weakness to Ice, wich means that Hidden Power Ice will damage them more. Dragon-type is the best type to have as STAB, but is a poor choice as a coverage move. But as 3 of your Pok├ęs already carry Ice-type moves, you can also use Hidden Power Grass; it helps Heatran have some chance against Water and Ground-types.
  6. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,983
    Just to answer your question, Delko makes excellent hail teams, that was the last time I saw a good one.

    Sorry I can't help much because I don't play offense much. However, I know enough to say run Flamethrower / HP ice / Earth Power / Overheat on a scarf set. If your looking for magma storm use the one on site with such a name: http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/heatran

    Just make sure you run toxic to deal with Volcarona.

    Im also 100% positive thunder gem sucks on Rotom-F, give it life orb or leftovers.
  7. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,261
    I'm echoing Asek's sentiments exactly except I'd go for standard 3 attacks Gengar:
    Gengar - Life Orb/Leftovers
    Timid - 4 HP 252 SpA 252 Spe
    Substitute
    Shadow Ball
    Focus Blast
    Thunderbolt/HP Fire
  8. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    511
    Hi Aubade,

    This is a pretty well constructed Hail Team you have here. The Choice Band Abomasnow in particular is very interesting, as it has the ability to OHKO all the other weather starters with the appropriate move. One problem I do see with your team, and many other Hail Teams alike is how weak it is to Stealth Rock. With Abomasnow, Rotom and Walrein all weak to Stealth Rock, it may be hard to keep specific team members alive, especially considering the high recoil from moves such as Wood Hammer. Abomasnow in particular when it is locked into a move and it needs to switch out will be taking 25% from Stealth Rock every time it switches back in, making it very hard for you to win the Weather War. While others have suggested Tentacruel for a rapid spinner, I think a Donphan would be a much better fit over your current Dusknoir. Donphan does a number of things for your team. As well as spinning away Stealth Rock, it also provides Stealth Rock for your team, granting KOs for Haxorus and friends. Donphan also gives you a defensive wall for your team. Common threats such as Terrakion and Tyranitar look very threating to your team, whereas Donphan provides you with a check to these, while also not being Pursuit trapped.

    Alternatively, if this change does not work you could also try a Defensive Wish Latias. For lack of a spinner, your Ice type pokemon will be worn down quickly by hazards. Latias provides Wish Support and a number of resistances that are very helpful for your team. Latias helps check Offensive Rain and Sun Teams, both of which cause problems for your team.

    With Hazards gone, your Pokemon will have less difficulty switching in, Abomasnow especially. As a result, you can afford to switch more and play more aggressive. I think changing your Rotom-F to a Choice Scarf set will give you an answer to Choice Dragons or those at +1. Adding a Scarf will also allow you to gain momentum with Volt Switch and put your opponent into a bad situation.

    Echoing what other users have said, I do recommend switching Heatran to a Specially Defensive Set. With this set, you can maximize Heatran's bulk to increase longevity and decrease the Fire weakness your team has even more. Heatran provides great support for your other teammates, coupled with Stealth Rock and Toxic it can easily wear down some of the bigger threats your team has to offer. It also helps you against Sun Teams, Venusaur and Victreebell in particular have a field day with this team when Heatran is gone. Volcarona also finds it easy to set up against Abomasnow, Dusknoir and your previous Choice Heatran locked into a move.

    Sets (open)
    Donphan (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard

    Rotom-F @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 100 SDef / 160 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Toxic
    - Roar
    - Protect

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)