Hail Discussion

[Cloud 8]

Hail Discussion Thread​

Despite Rain and Sun having great offensive presence, hail has monopoly on weather with the only auto-inducing ability in the tier and should always be prepared for. Hail abusers also find home in the tier such as Rotom-F, Glaceon and Stallrein. Hail teams do have there problems that stop it from being as dominating as it could be like the omnipresent Stealth Rock. Even with the aforementioned glaring weaknesses, Hail should always be considered when team building as both a candidate for a team, as well as a threat.​

The Weather Starter:​

The most vital part of any hail team; Snover has Snow Warning which immediately summons a permanent hailstorm. With Eviolite, Snover gets overall bulk just short of it's evolution, Abomasnow. This bulk allows him to set up a Sub in front of many Pokemon and Leech Seed there health away to compensate for lack of Leftovers. Unfortunately, Snover has weaknesses to common attacking types in the tier such as Bug and Fire but as the only perma-weather, it is not as necessary to keep your weather inducer alive like in other tiers.

Snover @ Eviolite
Trait: Snow Warning
Nature: Calm
EV's: 248 HP/ 172 Sp. Def/ 88 Def
Moves:
-Leech Seed
-Protect
-Substitute
-Giga Drain​

This is the set that takes advantage of Eviolite the best and is probably the most common Snover set. As previously stated, his Subs are very bulky and they also stop him from being Toxiced when he is trying to stall for Hail and Leech Seed damage. Leech Seed also compensates for Snover's low HP and lack of Leftovers. Protect is amazing for scouting for surprise HP Fires and can be used to get an extra 18% of damage on the opponent without taking any damage. The EV spread and Eviolite give great mixed bulk and give Snover the abilty to take Thunderbolts and Scalds all day long. Unfortunately, Giga Drain doesn't do much damage damage and can leave Snover as set up fodder against things like Calm Mind Entei. Regardless, Snover is a necessary evil for Hail teams and with the proper set Snover can actually do something beyond setting up Hail.​

Hail Abusers:​

As mentioned previously, many Hail abusers find a home in RU and can cause quite the havoc. Abusing Hail can be anything from taking advantage of an evasion boost with Snow Cloak, Spamming powerful Blizzards or even stalling out hail damage with Ice Body recovery. These abusers are the heart of most hail teams and there are many options available to build a hail team around available such As Glaceon, Walrein and even Beartic. Regardless the form of hail abuse or abuser, it is generally a very effective strategy and there are still many useful hail abusers that are not on this list that can be just as powerful.

Glaceon @Choice Specs
Trait: Snow Cloak/ Ice Body
Nature: Modest
EV's: 252 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 4 Spe
Moves:
-Blizzard
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fire/ HP Ground
-Ice Beam/ Baton Pass​

Glaceon was never really used in 4th gen outside of NU but Glaceon finds a place in RU in 5th gen, hitting majority of common flying types in the tier with a powerful Blizzard. Unfortunately, Glaceon faces stiff competition from Rotom-F for a Blizzspammer with his superior speed. Glaceon does have higher special attack and a Specs set takes full advantage of that, Glaceon also uses its nice bulk with full HP investment to avoid revenge kills outside of powerful fighting and fire types. A scarf set is still viable as with max speed and a Timid nature, Glaceon can outspeed all base 120's but is arguably outclassed by Rotom-F. A scarf set also forces Glaceon to switch more; a deadly practice for an ice type with a weakness to Stealth Rock. The other issue that holds Glaceon back is a shallow movepool; outside of Blizzard and Ice Beam Glaceon only really has Shadow Ball and Hidden Power for coverage. Glaceon can still make that work as it hits threatening Spinblockers that Hail teams hate with Shadow Ball and can fall back on HP Ground for the likes of Aggron or HP Fire for Ice types and a stronger hit on Ferroseed. Lack of movepool also leaves room for Ice Beam; which has much higher PP than Blizzard or Baton Pass to gain momentum. Not to mention Glaceons two great abilities that it has over Rotom-F that can make even 100% accurate moves miss 20% of the time or give Glaceon a higher HP recovery per turn than Leftovers; therefore freeing up an item slot.

Walrein@ Leftovers
Trait: Ice Body
Nature: Bold
EV's: 232 HP/ 252 Def/ 24 Sp. Def
Moves:
-Substitute
-Protect
-Blizzard/ Surf
-Toxic/ Roar/ Super Fang

Rotom-F@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Modest
EV's 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
Moves:
-Blizzard
-Thunderbolt
-Trick
HP Fire/ Volt Switch

Beartic@ Leftovers/ Life Orb
Trait: Snow Cloak
Nature: Adamant
EV's: 168 HP/ 252 Atk/ 88 Spe
Moves:
Substitute
Swords Dance
Focus Punch
Icicle Crash/ Ice Punch​

Hail Team Suppoters:​

Qwilfish@ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
Nature: Impish
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Moves:
- Spikes
- Waterfall
- Taunt
- Toxic Spikes/ Poison Jab

Claydol@ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sp. Def
Moves:
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam/ Toxic​

Hariyama@ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
Nature: Impish/ Careful
EV's: 12 HP/ 252 Def/ 244 Sp. Def
Moves:
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Whirlwind
-Force Palm

Cryogonal@ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Calm
EV's: 252 HP/ 252 Sp. Def/ 4 Spe
Moves:
-Rapid Spin
-Recover
-Ice Beam
- Toxic/ Haze

Clefable@ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Guard
Nature: Impish
EV's: 252 HP/ 176 Def/ 80 Sp. Def
Moves:
-Knock Off
-Wish/ Softboiled
-Seismic Toss
-Protect/ Toxic/ Encore/ Heal Bell​

Threats to Hail Teams:​

Fighting Types​

.....

Entei​

.....

Munchlax​

.....​

Figure I'd Snatchn this thread up. Rest coming soon.

 

[Chieliee]

Regice should be added to Hail abusers. It acts like a psuedo-stallrein

Also, I once got roflstomped by SD Snover lol, add that set.

 

[marilli]

Ice Body Regice is not released yet IIRC.

Also, a lot of hail stall teams just function like any other stall team other than 1. the extra residual damage and 2. the possibility of stallrein. That means that you should take a look at non-ice types for your team. From what I see, Qwilfish is one of the best T-spikers of RU with its released DW Ability Intimidate. It has good synergy with Ice-types (especially Snover and Qwilfish cover most of their weaks), and T-spikes are always welcome for Stallrein.

 

[Cloud 8]

Should I add a support hail section? What would should be there? Qwilfish is interesting, Entei is a great offensive partner, Blastoise and Claydol are important for spinning and have good overall synergy.

As far as threats to rain teams, Hitmonchan checks everything well, Golduck has Focus Blast and resists ice, Entei can take most hits and obviously kill majority of hail members, Emboar and Magmortar are other fire types that can take them on; Should fire types just be one section? Poliwrath 4x resists ice and can sub up to avoid damage, set up and kill things with Focus Punch. Agrron also has a 4x resistance but has low special dfense and can fall to coverage moves. God, Ice types have a lot of weaknesses.

 

[Delko]

I found BlizzSpam to be pretty effective in RU. Scarf Vanillux gets a mention here.

EDIT: neither Rock nor Fighting doesn't resist Ice so Poliwrath and Aggron don't 4x resist it, just twice.

 

[Amire]

Add Lapras, Piloswine and Rotom - F for other Hail abusers. Hitmonlee and Medicham are good threats for hail teams

 

[Cloud 8]

Ah Thank you, I'm not sure how Hail really benefits Lapras, Blizzspam is better done by basically everything else. Same with Vanilluxe, I dont know what he has over Glaceon, 20 base Spe points shouldnt really make a difference,especially with a scarf. I dont know about Piloswines viability in general, pleas submit some logs or calcs for evidence.

 

[Amire]

Careful nature
Eviolite

252HP/124SPD/128ATT Pilowine is a beast after 2 curses and with help from snow cloak and with a nice offensive type it can be a PAIN! + STAB priority is always a great thing.

 

[waterwarrior]

beast after 2 curses

What are you getting those up on?

 

[No Luck Involved]

Agreeing that Quilfish is an amazing Hail supporter. Resisting Fighting and Fire + Intimidate and TSpikes makes it almost perfect, if only it had recovery. Also Hariyama is a great Hail supporter thanks to Thick Fat, Whirlwind, Fighting STAB, Knock Off and RestTalk.

All fast, powerful Fighting types will give Hail teams massive problems. Scarf Gallade, Medicham, Primeape and Sawk all force Hail teams to switch to their Fighting resist which can be capitalised on. Fire types not so much because of Walrein who can usually take anything even at 75% health.

 

[Amire]

What are you getting those up on?

Entei's choice banded flare blitz does about 80%. After 2 curses that is.

 

[No Luck Involved]

What are you getting those up on?

Entei's choice banded flare blitz does about 80%. After 2 curses that is.

Not sure if trolling

 

[Twannes]

oh if blastoise was still RU. spinner+fire resist and a good wall in general. Also cryogonal gets Rapid Spin as well.
good hail team:
snover / ice type / blizz abuser / spinner / fight resist / fire resist

sth like tht (jus made it up, can be like totaly wrong ;)

 

[kniteowl]

I used a Semi - offensive hail team, but I still needed support to keep the rocks off the field and Walrein is an almost a compulsory choice on a hail team.

Duosion is awesome on a hail team, resist fighting weakness and immune to hail damage and ant other forms of indirect damage because of magic guard and can set up end game to clean out the opponent.

Mixed Life Orb Sharpedo with Blizzzard instead of Ice Beam makes a good revenger but won't last very long but he fitted well on my team who composed of slow pokemon that were easily out sped and swept me other wise.

Specs Rotom-F Blizz-Spam is AWESOME and has Stab bolt beam coverage, I would use a Volt switch, tbolt, Blizzard and trick set with timid nature. Once the checks were gone, just hit blizzard.

Jynx might be worth mentioning now that it's dream world ability *dry skin* has been released, you could also use it to potentially check/counter rain teams because of it's immunity to water moves.

Mandibuzz gets overcoat so doesn't suffer hail damage either but doesn't resist any of ice's weaknesses, it actually adds on your rock weakness but it can cover for some of your other support pokemon such has claydol and Duosion (Dark and ghost weakness) and Hariyama (Psychic weakness)

 

[Cloud 8]

I'm so far skeptical of SD snover and Piloswine, Also some logs for Duosion would be nice too but will porobably add it anyway. Might also add Jynx but I feel as though there are better rain checks. I probably wont add Mandibuzz because its more of a supporter to the supporters of hail teams. I also dont think I will add Sharpedo because I don't know how much difference 30 base power will make. It also compounds a fighting weakness.

 

[marilli]

Some people probably know this, but for defensive / balanced Hail teams, T-Spikes and Spinblocker for Walrein really gets you wins. While a skeptical choice for most teams, Lampent or Frillish cover the Fighting / Fire weakesses and spinblocks. Lampent adds the Rock weakness, but at the benefit of acting as a Yanmega check and actually being able to absorb Entei Flare Blitz. (because Frillish will be 2HKOd with prior damage) If you can keep Tspikes up and get Walrein going, the opponent is royally screwed.

As for your doubts about Piloswine, he is actually pretty good. But I don't really see why I should go for unreliable Snow Cloak when I can just spam Blizzard with something like Glaceon and / or stall with StallRein. Consider this: Hail teams are usually at a disadvantage with +3 Ice-types because Ice is a bad defensive typing. I don't think it's worth it to carry Piloswine at the price of having poor synergy or foregoing Stallrein / Blizzspam.

Gallade should be noted as a serious threat to ALL Hail Teams. It takes ~56% from Scarf Glaceon Blizzard--that's how specially bulky that thing is. (I'm talking about the Taunt + Bulk Up set.) It has Bulk Up + Drain Punch to tank through all but the best hail teams.

 

[JockeMS]

I was just thinking about this, but shouldn't Hariyama be put as a threat as well due to Thick Fat and it's Fighting STAB?

 

[Molk]

I was just thinking about this, but shouldn't Hariyama be put as a threat as well due to Thick Fat and it's Fighting STAB?

I agree with this, Munchlax is a defensive threat to hail teams as well because

1) most hail pokes are weak to SR and munchlax can phaze

2) Munchlax has a pseudo resist to ice and can set up curses all over any hail poke that stands in his way

 

[Foxy Grandpa]

I agree with this, Munchlax is a defensive threat to hail teams as well because

1) most hail pokes are weak to SR and munchlax can phaze

2) Munchlax has a pseudo resist to ice and can set up curses all over any hail poke that stands in his way

And Munchlax rests off toxic spikes as well.

hariyama does that as well but most Hariyamas I've seen have been guts

 

[Cloud 8]

Put fighting types under one category will point out the differences between the bulky fighting types and fast powerful ones. Took off Agrron as the other ones should be first priotiy considering it is never used. Added Munchlax. Put Entei wvwn though it cant beat Stallrein unlasse it is SubCM but still good.

 

[Windsong]

I ran pure offensive hail for a while, and it was ridiculously good (I peaked at like 2nd in about an hour with just below 1400ish). All of the good Blizzard resists either get worn down by repeated Blizzards (or don't like taking Volt Switches from Rotom-F) and a ton of common metagame threats (Yanmega, Rain teams, all the flying types) all lose outright to good Blizzspam (not 6 ice types thrown together, but an actual good team with resists and stuff).

On the other hand, when I tried defensive hail, I found it wasn't quite as good, to be honest. There are simply too damn many threats to cover with six slots, especially when random stuff popping up every other battle, and it's really irritating trying to leave a slot open for Snover. In addition, I also found that while hail does help stall against some threats, it leaves it open to others, since your eviolite mons take that extra bit of damage which is enough for some major threats to stall to 2HKO them.

Finally, I'd just like to add that Hail is probably the single most anti metagame threat right now, especially with Blastoise gone since nothing in RU likes taking Blizzards much, even the common resists that are supposed to be able to "beat" hail, like Entei and Poliwrath.

Also, I would add Clefable and Cryogonal to the threats to hail -- both take Blizzards well from offensive Hail, and defensive hail can't really touch either of them (well, they can Toxic Cryo, but it spins their hazards and Blizzards don't do shit to it).

 

[Lady Shinki]

Even though it might be inferior to other options, I feel like Beartic should be mentioned here for two reasons:

1: It can completely break down RU Stall cores on its own
2: It can abuse Snow Cloak along with a Substitute set

Here's the set I'm suggesting:

Beartic @ Leftovers
252 Atk / 24 HP / 232 Spe
Adamant / Snow Cloak

Substitute/Swords Dance
Focus Punch/Superpower
Ice Punch/Icicle Crash
Yawn / Toxic

Yes, it looks like it has slash syndrome, but the first listed options go well together, and the second listed options also go well together. Ice+Fighting not only gets great coverage, it also MAULS the common walls of the tier. (Unfortunate that it doesn't get Ice Shard, otherwise we'd have an even more dangerous hail sweeper on our hands) SubPunch is a reliable strategy, Yawn can force more switches for entry hazard damage and disable counters like Poliwrath since you're likely to outspeed them with the high speed investment. The main reason to run such a high speed investment is to outspeed 4 Spe Blastoise, but since he's likely to move out of the tier it's irrelevant, so instead you should use at least 88 Spe to outspeed 4 Spe Clefable and the other base 60s, or enough to outspeed 4 Spe Poliwrath/Altaria/etc...

 

[Cloud 8]

Will probably add Beartic too. What about a Sub AND Swords Dance set I dont really know how vital Toxic and Yawn are but Im imagining him like playing Cacturne in the Sand. Pretty much the same thing. Would appreciate some logs/ calcs/ testimonials of Beartic and Duosion. I'm skeptical of Jynx but will probably also add once I finish the main Blizzspammers so some calcs/ logs/ testimonials would be good for that too. Hmmm what else.... Vanilluxe is outclassed by Glaceon and Rotom-F. Lapras is Meh and is better on Rain teams as it needs the power boost. Piloswine, even if viable doesnt gain anything from hail besides an extra 6% of damage from hail on the opponent. Speaking of gaining something significant from Hail, Do Cryogonal and Articuno really deserve a mention in Abusers? The only thing they gain is accurate blizzard and extra health off the opponent. I suppose Sub Roost Articuno likes the extra damge but Moltres covers more of a hail teams weaknesses. Cryogonal doesnt really gain anything either but might put it into supporters with nice Dual Screening abilities. As far as counters, Im skeptical of Clefable and Cryogonal. How does Clefable stand up aghainst repeated Blizzards? Calcs please. Assuming they could both take Blizzards all day the only thing they can really do to a hail team is Toxic. No?

 

[No Luck Involved]

Cryogonal may be more of a supporter than an abuser but it definitely deserves to be mentioned. It has great special bulk, speed, and access to Recover which gives it many opportunities to come in and spam Blizzard or spin hazards. It's ability also really helps it in every way. It's one of the first Pokemon to consider for a Hail team imo.

NB: Piloswine has Snow Cloak btw. Not that it makes it any more viable but it does gain something in Hail.

 

[Molk]

Cryogonal may be more of a supporter than an abuser but it definitely deserves to be mentioned. It has great special bulk, speed, and access to Recover which gives it many opportunities to come in and spam Blizzard or spin hazards. It's ability also really helps it in every way. It's one of the first Pokemon to consider for a Hail team imo.

why not use cryongonal as both? crap physical defense yes, but blizzard hits like a truck, and it can rapid spin quickly, Cryogonal is underestimated in general.