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Hail: More Than Anti-Metagame Idealism

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by DEMo_Gorgon47, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. bubbly

    bubbly

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    The problem with Starmie on conventional (e.g. relatively defensive) Hail is that (Toxic Spikes user + Ghost, which isn't that uncommon right now) is an auto-lose. Most of your best offensive components, mainly SubKyurem, are crippled by Toxic Spikes. Nearly all my best Hail teams have used either the obvious Tentacruel, or stuff like Forretress + Nidoqueen. Starmie can be pretty cool though on Hail by using a Flame Orb coupled with Trick (screwing with Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Tyranitar and other common switch ins).

    Also, I've been doing nicely with a very quickstallish Hail team of LSeed + Protect Aboma, SR Heatran, Toxic Stall Gliscor, SubDisable Gengar, Tentacruel, SubRoost Kyurem. Absolute nightmare for HO teams (which are effing everywhere!) to face, since they usually have to take ~40% from Hail, Leech Seed, and Toxic combined with Protect just to force members out. Only real problem so far is Mamoswine if I don't have Toxic Spikes down.

    Last thing I promise. New favourite Abomasnow set is Focus Punch / Protect / Leech Seed / Ice Shard, with 252 HP / 252 Atk Adamant. To my mind this gives it the best possible utility; you have Ice Shard for revenge killing and lategame cleaning, Leech Seed for recovery, residual damage, and so if you get Burnt switching into Scald you can still do something; and Protect to stall in conjunction with Leech Seed and Hail, while scouting Genesect and co. Focus Punch is sort of unorthodox without a Substitute, but SubAboma isn't that great imo, since it's very susceptible to status and U-turning. Anyway, Focus Punch hits Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Terrakion, and even Genesect for massive damage, and switches to these pokemon are usually very easy to predict.
  2. Murk

    Murk

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    ^that Abomasnow set was my idea lol. Also that team is the most frustrating piece of crap I've ever played against, so well done mate and you owe me a new keyboard.

    Also yay, first post!
  3. bkt0731

    bkt0731

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    there is one thing that nobody really think about. hail deals damage on everything but ice compared to steel, rock and ground of sandstorm.

    this means that stall could work better for hail team.

    try running leech seed set for abobmansnow, endeavor for mamoswine and use walrein.

    walrein has reasonable bulk, has ice body and able to encore. this means protect/sub spamming with leftovers can ko pretty much everything



    aboman

    hp/spa 252 timid
    blizzard/leech seed/sub/protect

    walrein

    hp 252 def 252 bold
    surf/protect/encore/sub

    glacia

    hp 252 def 72 spa 48 spd 136
    blizzard/wish/heal bell/hp-fire or ground
  4. bkt0731

    bkt0731

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    I'd recommend roserade. it gets weather ball, can ohko poli and ttar, absorbs tspike.

    leaf storm/weather ball/shadow ball/hp-fire can hit nearly everything 2x. bp 100 ice move is definitly a threat to all dragons, hp fire can ohko scizor and possibly ferro.

    u can run this set defensively, using tpike.


    there's glaceon, with h252 b72, it can take banded bullet punch from scizor and c48 ensures ohko with hp fire. give the rest to spd and here we have a monster firing stab 100 acc blizzard.

    both rock/fighting resistant aren't that common. slowbro, starmie and jellicent can work in this stall
  5. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
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    You are correct typically hail is played in a "Stall" or "Semi-Stall" way but i have noticed that hail offense has been on the increase.

    bubbly that Abomasnow set seems interasting i have never tried any Focus Punch varaints of Abomasnow but it seems like a good idea to murder Tyranitar switch-ins.

    another thing which was pointed out to me in my rmt is with 122 speed evs Abomasnow outspeeds defensive Politoed and Tyranitar which is good for the Wood Hammer/Ice Shard/Leech Seed/Protect Set. If any of you are curios as to what rmt i am talking about you can check my signature i noticed there are alot of people hear who know alot about hail so you may want to check it out :)
  6. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    speaking of hail, i founded useful the support from dugtrio+u-turn xatu
    xatu helps u with hazards while dugtrio can trap ninetales and tyranitar, not politoed but abomasnow can help against it anyway.
  7. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
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    Yeah i always considered using Dugtrio on hail because it helps take on Tyranitar and Ninetales but then i remembered that hail breaks its Focus Sash i guess Choice Band would work to a certain extent but there are usually better ways to deal with them. Swampert is one of my favourite pokemon in hail being able to abuse Blizzard set up Stealth Rock and be able to beat Tyranitar one on one and even Ninetales that dont carry Solar Beam
  8. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    well, this is a problem only if u need to trap an heatran and u have already hail up. tyranitar and ninetales will summon sand or sun so they wont break your focus sash.
    well, gastrodon is basically better thanks to storm drain and recovery, unfortunately it doesnt have rocks... :(
  9. Box

    Box

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    How in the world can you classify Gastrodon together with Dugtrio? The two fulfil entirely different roles.

    If you're talking about how well they take on Ninetales and Tyranitar, the former simply scares them off while the latter can effectively trap them in and O/2HKO with appropriate attack. Ninetales carrying HP Grass also decimates Gastrodon.
  10. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    i was just saying that gastrodon is better than swampert , thats it.
  11. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    I'm getting pretty frustrated with my hail team lately, largely due to the massive Genesect abuse in OU. Arrgghh. Not to mention if there is a Conkeldurr/Terrakion on the opposing team, I'm in for a world of poop. Either set up SubKyurem FAST, or I pretty much lose.

    How do you guys play around this?
  12. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    protect abomasnow helps you scouting the move of opposite genesect. gliscor can be a good partner, but u need a bulky psichic because some conkeldurr may have ice punch.
  13. Delko

    Delko "ghost mod"
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    If your opponent is using Tyranitar or Ninetales, then Hail isn't up all the time. Try to get them on a double switch to keep your sash intact.

    HP Fire Reuniclus?
  14. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Use scarf Jirachi with a 4 spdef investment to let Genesect get an attack boost. Lead vs Genesect turn 1 and OHKO with Fire Punch.
    vs a bad player http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest2553020
    vs ganj4lf
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2458104
    me sacking pokemon for no actual reason
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2565974
    Conkeldurr is 2hkoed by ice beam. I usually ice beam once as they break Kyurem's sub with Drain Punch and then switch to Gengar. Scarf Jirachi can trick away the scarf and then Gengar can wall it. Terrakion can be handled between Starmie/Gengar/Jirachi.
  15. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    If you are looking for a sweeper, Trick Room HP Fire Reuniclus sounds perfect for your issues. It can solidly OHKO genesect, and use Conkeldurr/Choiced Terrakion as setup at times. If you are looking for a scarfer, Choice Scarf Jirachi can also work pretty well, although it would have issues with Conkeldurr. Choice Scarf Gengar could be a really interesting option as well. Initially they will assume you are Life Orb when they don't see the Leftovers, and feel free to U-Turn/Thunderbolt with their Genesects, while you can outspeed and KO with HP Fire. Choice Scarf Gengar can also make a decent check to Terrakion, even Scarf'd Variants, while maintaining the ability to hit Conkeldurr pretty hard. And due to the fact that Choice Scarf isn't a common Item on Gengar, you will have a bit of surprise factor involved in every match.
  16. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    What spinners do you usually use in Hails?

    I tried Physically defensive Hitmontop, but suffers a lot from its lack of HP base. It does not help not to have instante recovery.

    I also tried Starmie, which works best for me, but, I prefer not to use the same and test another things.

    Rapid Spin, the move forgotten by Game Freak.
  17. IurtaeMont

    IurtaeMont

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    The two I've been debating between are Tentacruel and Donphan.

    Tentacruel gives me a Toxic Spikes immunity, which is good for obvious reasons, but Donphan gives me a Electric Immunity, which is good because with Tentacruel I have three pokemon that may have to eat a SE Thunder.


    What's nice is the moveset I use pretty much works for both of them:

    Knock off, Entry Hazard, Rapid Spin, STAB attack.

    The Donphan set is posted above and the Tenta set is the normal tenta set.
  18. Ambicrow3

    Ambicrow3

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    Cough*Delibird*Cough
    Cough*Cryogonal* Cough
    Cough*Cloyster* Cough
  19. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    True, I was going to mention it, but I don't see Cryogonal viable in OU, Delibird, no words about how awful is, not to mention is the worst spinner because its x4 weakness to SR and frailness. This leaves us with Cloyster, who its set Rapid Spin has a lot of issues against Jellicent, and its typing, HP and special defense sucks.
  20. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    Only VIABLE spinners then. Gamefreak just hates Hail.
  21. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    Forretress is also a very viable spinner in Hail. With Pain Split, it has some form of recovery. Although it may share a Fire-Type weakness with Abomasnow, it can also bring some other useful resistances to the team. Overall though, I have had the most success with Starmie as my spinner in hail. It is extremely fast, can hit hard, and has recovery. Additionally, Starmie can run various coverage moves to help cover any holes my team has, and it can beat most of the spinblocker's in the metagame. I have never been a big fan of using Tentacruel in Hail, as it dies so fast. Nearly every percent of HP lost by Tentacruel is permanent damage, and repeated switching into hazards can really wear it down. If I were to rate Hail spinners, I would say: Starmie > Forretress > Tentacruel > Cloyster/Hitmontop
  22. xKYSx

    xKYSx

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    you might find it crazy but, I've been using cryogonal as a spinner in hail stall and surprisingly it works. His Sp.d is wicked high that he can take most non-boosted neutral special hits easily.

    Though the hard part is finding when is the right time to switch him in to spin because he's pretty much like a mirror; wrong move means he's pretty much done for unlike other spinners who can atleast take a physical hit.

    -edit-

    Though he does have merits vouching for him like his ability. Levitate is sooo useful in OU.
  23. thatgirl

    thatgirl

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    I am thinking that once Overcoat Forretress is released, Hail will probably be its most comfortable weather to be in. Being able to regain health every turn from lefties with protect (and possibly leech seed from Abomasnow) while also draining health from the opposition will be a great boon to hail stall and probably any team looking to run Abomasnow in general. I mean, really, how often does Sturdy really help? Probably a set like spikes/spin/protect/gyroball or volt switch would be pretty cool.
  24. W_M

    W_M

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    Cloyster @ Rock Gem/LifeOrb/King's Rock
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 At / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Jolly/Adamant Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Shell Smash
    - Icicle Spears
    - Rock Blast


    Gengar is beaten after shell smash.

    Jellicent's statistics:
    Natures
    | Calm 44.443%
    | Bold 41.726%
    EV spreads
    | 248/0/0/0/44/216 18.227%
    | 252/0/4/252/0/0 17.075%
    | 252/0/0/220/0/36 13.481%
    | 252/0/4/0/0/252 8.003%
    | 252/0/0/252/0/4 4.217%

    +2 Jolly Rock gem vs bold 252/0 = 93% OHKO (OHKO after rocks)
    +2 Adamant LifeOrb vs bold 252/0 = 67% OHKO (OHKO after rocks)
    +2 Jolly LifeOrb vs calm 252/0 = 67% OHKO (OHKO after rocks)
    41% flinch with King's Rock

    You have sweeper and spinner 2 in 1.
  25. Azotal

    Azotal

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    One thing that's being overlooked here is the fact that a Hail team can benefit from hail, but doesn't necessarily have to RELY on Hail. In fact, in my opinion, relying on Hail is a very bad move considering the prevalence of Abomasnow killing Pokemon (of course, it's important to note that if played correctly, Abomasnow kills pretty much anything. It's the speed that makes it get shredded by popular Pokemon such as Genesect).

    I've found that the biggest help to a Hail team is a plethora of status inducers (specifically paralysis) that assist in speeding up the overly slow Ice-types. Many Ice-type pokemon, Abomasnow and Kyurem being the first two that come to mind, can't deal with the absurdly fast paced current metagame even though they have massive attack stats, making them sub-par. Support from status inducers greatly helps these Pokemon.

    In addition, utilizing pokemon like Endeavor Mamoswine to set up rocks, endeavor them down to no health, then kill is another possibility. Normally, if you die after endeavoring they're left at low hp. However, with Hail up, they now die too. There are many other similar strategies that could greatly benefit from this bonus damage, the most simple of which being the simple all out offense. The small damage compiles quickly and assuming you have one or two other Ice-types that's a big advantage.

    Moral of the story: a mixed bag is better than a one trick pony.

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