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Handling Deoxys-D

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Doughboy, Oct 8, 2012.

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  1. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Handling Deoxys-D
    [​IMG]

    After the banishment of his brethren, Deoxys-D has taken the OU metagame by surprise. Unusually, it has become the primary suicide lead for HO teams with its good speed and access to Spikes and Stealth Rock. Having unmatched effectiveness as a hazard lead, Deoxys-D has attracted quite a bit of hate from OU players. People have gone to say that the teams that it spawns are unimaginative and some have gone to say it is broken. In whatever capacity you hate Deoxys-D, I believe that the difficulty in dealing with it is not taking into account as a threat when team-building. In a sense, we are the unimagitive ones since many team builders have taken negligence for accounting Deoxys-D in teambuilding (almost like not taking into account Stall). I have come to find that the solutions for handling Deoxys-D aren't entirely obvious. Hopefully with this thread it can become more transparent on how to deal with this (annoying) threat in the OU metagame! You guys are encouraged to share how you deal with it or ideas on how to deal with it on your teams.

    Of note is that Deoxys-D carries many different variants. What can beat one variant could be the foil of another. For this thread, we will consider the most used set of:

    Deoxys (Deoxys-D) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Night Shade​

    However the different variants such as the Life Orb variant should be kept in mind! I would also like to note we should try to aim for Pokemon that are found on balanced teams.

    Faster Taunt

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Taunt is the go to move to stop set up of any kind and is a key factor to beating Deoxys-D. With a Taunt user, the goal is to reach above base 90 speed and to use a +speed nature (in other words >306 speed stat). Luckily the distribution of Taunt extends beyond to many Pokemon above base 90, most notably to the Pokemon listed above. Of note is that the Pokemon that have Taunt above either have a free moveslot to incorporate the move with or make it apart of their standard moveset. So far, Tornadus-T on rain teams and Terrakion are the most popular Pokemon to have Taunt to beat Deoxys-D. While on Terrakion it is filler or made apart of its newfound lead set, Tornadus-T can use it to beat Blissey and Chansey 1 vs 1. In a similar fashion, Alakazam can make great use of the move especially on Sand teams. Often teams rely upon Chansey to wall Alakazam and flonder when Taunt prevents their healing while in Sandstorm. Thanks to Prankster, Sableye can Taunt Deoxys-D before it tries to set up and is probably the best option for a stall team to carry in order to beat it. Other Pokemon that can make use of a faster Taunt include Thunderus-T, Keldeo, Zoroark, Gengar, and the (hopefully soon released) Contrary Serperior. However, a fast Taunt user can fall to Metal Herb variants of Deoxys-D or offensive varaints if it has the right coverage move

    Magic Bounce
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Perhaps the most consistent way to deal with Deoxys-D; a Magic Bounce user can prevent Deoxys-D from setting up on the field even on the switch in. Both Xatu and Espeon have the coveted ability and each have their advantages. Xatu's has a secondary-typing with Flying, reliant recovery in Roost, and the ability to beat Baton Pass teams with Haze. However, Espeon can play much more offensively, can escape Pursuit with Baton Pass (or pass CM's), and use Heal Bell to support its team mates. While great for dealing with Deoxys-D, their use is somewhat limited to support team mates or act as an offensive Pokemon. Their susceptibility to the omnipresent Pursuit does not aid them either.

    Outright OHKO'ing
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    This is probably the most inefficient and limited way to beat Deoxys-D, but it can be done. In order to kill one has to be faster than Deoxys-D and have the right STAB's. Powerful STAB, Choice-boosted, super-effective attacks can wipe Deoxys-D right off the map. The two best are Choice Specs Zoroark and Choice Band Geneset. With an unconventional set, Genesect can hit Deoxys-D with a Download boosted U-turn since the standard set has been EV'ed to give an attack boost. Meanwhile, with a Modest Nature, Zoroark can make Deoxys-D stay in with Illusion and OHKO with Nigh Daze (unfortunately not Dark Pulse). Remember, one has to go to pretty extreme length's to OHKO Deoxys-D so it isn't the best way to go.

    Trick+Rapid Spin
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Trick can leave Deoxys-D in a state of being locked into one move. It is especially effective if it goes for Taunt. However, since Deoxys-D still has the ability to use Stealth Rock, a Rapid Spin user has to be paired with the Trick user to get rid of Stealth Rock. Starmie is paticularly effective for its ability to beat Gengar that is often paired with Deoxys-D. Tricking a Scarf is best since this will leave the Rapid Spinner slower than Deoxys-D so Rapid Spin will always go last. While this can stop Deoxys-D from setting up hazards, it will leave you without the utility of the Choice User and can be stopped if the Deoxys-D user predicts the trick (this is why Zoroark is effective in Tricking Deoxys-D).
    __________________________

    Those are the main ways I have thought with dealing with it. How about you?
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Definitely mention Volcarona in there... If you lack T-Wave and it leads, it is able to go at +1/+1/+1 which is troubling for many offensive teams.

    Also mention Aerodactyl and Mew in the faster Taunt users department.
  3. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Dont forget Choice Band Tar:

    252Atk Choice Band Unnerve Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/0Def Deoxys (Neutral): 96% - 114%. Guaranteed OHKO after Sandstorm.

    Celebi is also a good trick user, and is a decent alternative to Jirachi.

    Celebi@Choice Scarf
    ~Trick
    ~Hp Fire
    ~Sr
    ~Leaf Storm
  4. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Choice Band Tyranitar was not included because it can not outspeed Deoxys-D when it sets up Stealth Rock. As a matter of fact the HO team in question will probably aim to set up on your choiced-crunch with one of the many fighting types in the tier found on HO including Terrakion, Breloom, and Lucario.

    edit: Guys I said to keep in mind the offensive sets, I even mentioned it in the Fast Taunt users set. I listed the Fast Spiker set since it is the standard and the most used. It would be too arduous to list out all the variants.
  5. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I like these kind of threads, makes people find ways to counter certain mons which means when we discover new counters there will be less banning.

    Anyway, what about the suicide lead set? I believe that set should be listed in the OP. The set would take out at least half of the listed counters due to it's offensive coverage moves.

    J/w, is super power an okay option to catch tyranitar or a weak chansey/blissey by surprise?
  6. blunder

    blunder

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    I really think you should add in the Offensive Deoxys-D Lead set becuase it can beat most of it's annoying counters straight up such as Forretress and Scizor- The two sets I have run in the past are

    Deoxys (Deoxys-D) @ Fight Gem
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly/Adamant (I personally prefer Jolly to outspeed stuff like Adamant Lucario and Jolly Mamoswine) Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Superpower
    - Fire Punch
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes

    Fight Gem is Mainly there to beat Tyranitar straight up especially if you're running a team based around sweeping with something such as Alakazam or Latios. Tyranitar's Special bulk can cut sweeper's "sweep" short by stopping them with its monsterous attack. It also lets you control the weather war since it is very unexpected. Fire Punch is again for Forry, Ferro, and Scizor


    Alterantively you can use Fire Gem - or use max SpA and use HP Fire.

    Another set I have seen is Electric Gem with Thunderbolt to beat Starmie.
    I also think Tanga berry should be mentioned since I have seen it show merit before, being able to live Genesect's Bug Buzz and let you get up an extra layer

    Hope this helped
  7. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Jirachi and Rotom dont stop Stealth Rock either. Yes, the Tyranitar is choiced and easy to setup on, but if your revenge killer is still alive (it should be this early in the game), then the threatning fighting type can be countered.
  8. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Well taunting is always the go to move, magic bounce doesn't help against screens so taunt is much more of a catch all. I find the very best mon for countering D-D is Starmie with a choice band, because it doesn't boost it's most common coverage moves and forces a switch. However things will go somewhat sour if it goes for spikes before rocks.

    While these are all good strategies the main problem with countering Deoxys-D is that nothing can stop every variation. It might have a mental herb, it might have an appropriate coverage move, it may even have a sash (Though that's rare.) and no team carries counters to everything it can do. You can't effectively scout it because it's a lead so you'll only know what it's going to do if it does it. All in all though it's not to hard to let it do it's thing, let it die then fix the problem later.

    I think the reason people don't like it though is because they regard it with a kind of elitism because it's a "noob" strategy. Like zerg rushing in star craft. It isn't much of an exaggeration to say you can slap 5 offensive powerhouses behind D-D and have an effective team. I like the guy though, he's super user friendly but not the absolute best pokemon. He's a good starting 'mon for newer players.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Actually there is a 100% way to stop any Deoxys-D, and this is Jolly CB Genesect, as long as you lead with it.
  10. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Does CBsect have to get the attack boost to OHKO it? Or does it always? Because if it's the former then physically defensive variants may begin to crop up if CBsect also does.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    It needs the Atk boost, so if it becomes really popular then it won't be able to OHKO. Then Specs Timid Genesect will become popular to get advantage of the SpA boost to OHKO Deo-D, and the cycle will continue forever...
  12. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    I wasn't aware that Deoxys-D was normally EV'd to give Genesect an Attack boost. I EV it so that Genesect gets a Special Attack boost, then Protect to scout for Bug Buzz. I guess you could drop Protect for something that's actually useful and then bank on Genesect not having Bug Buzz, but I don't like losing to CB Genesect simply because I feel that it's such an awful set and it doesn't deserve my respect.

    Also, if anyone was wondering: 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect U-turn vs 252 HP/4 Def Deoxys-D: 71.05% - 83.88%, CB +0 is not an OHKO.
  13. StairFall

    StairFall

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    CBsect is a really meta set. It isn't good in it's own right it's simply the most powerful u-turn in the game because people are purposely giving it attack boosts. Plus D-D while not often can still effectively run a physically defensive or mixed defences set so it isn't very reassuring.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Another poke that can always beat any Deo-D is Scolipede with Bug Gem which does 100.65 - 118.42% to this fucker! I don't know how viable this thing is, but with Spikes, good speed and the ability to beat Deo-D it could have some use as a suicide lead.
  15. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    The only draws I see from CB Genesect are the Download boosts it gets all the time due to people pretending they're clever and putting 4 SDef on their Keldeo or whatever, plus the fact that Terrakion likes to switch into Genesect because it thinks it's safe, therefore if you can pull off an OHKO with Iron Head it feels pretty great. I wish it received Bullet Punch in BW2 off a tutor or something, because then I'd have a reason to use it.
  16. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    I'm actually seeing, and using, Tanga Berry Deoxys-D alot at the moment. A lot of people are relying on Genesect/Scizor to hit Deoxys-D hard with U-Turn, letting them deal heavy damage while avoiding locking moves. Tanga Berry is really nice because it minimizes the damage by a lot, and I can almost always get at least SR + Spikes down, compared to just SR. It may be over centralizing a bit, but hey people started using Fire Gem just to get Scizor/Forretress and Fighting Gem just to get Tyranitar, which doesn't always ko bulky Chople Berry variant iirc, could be wrong though.

    Also Boosting Sweepers should have a special mention imo. Stuff like Volcarona and DDMence can be very deadly once they setup, and if you lack Thunder Wave or they have Lum Berry, they will almost always setup +1.
  17. Lavos Spawn

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    dragonuser, I ran that god-awful Fighting Gem Deoxys-D back in BW1 when it was sort of popular and I was a terrible battler, and yes, the generally accepted spread of 252 HP / 92 Atk / 164 Spd was a guaranteed OHKO on 252 HP Tyranitar (lacking Chople Berry, of course).

    92 Atk Fighting Gem Deoxys-D Superpower vs 252 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 100% - 117.82%

    And I agree that boosting sweepers, especially Volcarona, should be getting mentioned here.
  18. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Boosting sweepers are great because of the way that they don't really stop D-D, they simply disregard him. Because D-D is usually a suicide lead for HO teams I'd just start with sub SD terra (psycho boost is rare in my experience) and force him out with the sheer prospect of getting the sub and +2, it's even better when I face a more inexperienced battler and get both and kill him, keeping my sub and even getting to +4 in some cases.
  19. Lavos Spawn

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    According to last month's usage statistics, while it is true that Psycho Boost is seen on approximately 11% of Deoxys-D, Night Shade and Seismic Toss together account for more than 50% usage. Assuming that none of these three moves are used in conjunction with each other (and why would they be), over 61% Deoxys-D can break Terrakion's Substitute at any time. I don't think SubSD Terrak is a very reliable way to face off against Deo-D. Even if you manage to get a Sub and some boosts under your belt, you just received Stealth Rock and 1-3 layers of Spikes up on your side of the field. Assuming the opponent still has a way to beat Terrakion behind a Sub, you might have lost the game due to the sheer amount of hazards that your opponent got to lay down at the cost of only one Pokemon.

    The next thread I want to see on Deoxys-D is the announcement that it's been banned.
  20. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Do you mean that earnestly that it should be banned or that you predict it will happen?

    And yeah sub SD terrakion was a bad example, however my point was that because of team preview and the fact that D-D is almost always on HO teams if you can set up it can be either a way to scare away D-D or make it hard to take down the rest of the team. It's situational yes but it isn't bad.
  21. Baka Ki Eru Dogura

    Baka Ki Eru Dogura

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    ok, i'm posting this for a right cause.
    That standard Deoxys set uhm...sucks
    'Cause there's a better set that can deal with most of the threat you mentioned

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-D @ Red Card
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spike
    - Magic Coat
    - Skill Swap

    Ok, let's explain
    Red Card checks boosters,
    with that EV spread can survive a +1 Uturn from Genesect, precisely it will reach 406 Defense, and 407 SpecialDefense thus avoiding Gene's SpAtk boost
    Ok, Spike&Sr are his main setups.. (._.)
    Awhhhhplease forgive me...Skill Swap trolls Magic Bouncers.
    Lastly Magic Coad deals with faster taunter.

    Ok, this set doesn't cover Trick+Rapid spin but oh well..
  22. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Unless PO2 has incorrect mechanincs, Red Card doesn't eject your opponent if you are OHKO'd. Meaning that Deoxys-D set is complete setup bait for most boosters.

    Here is a pastebin log of me testing it vs Funkasaurus
    http://pastebin.com/pFE7mtNz
  23. TheFourthChaser

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    I don't agree with the OP since absolutely no one should have been surprised by how good Deoxys-D became once Deo-S was banned and this is pretty much the reason I'm even posting lol. Honestly, I'd ban Deoxys if I had the chance.

    Yes, some viable ways were mentioned how to deal with Deo-D but, for the most part, they aren't enough to stop Deo-D from getting at least two layers. In my opinion using Magic Bounce is the best way listed since:
    -Mental Herb can stop Taunt while allowing you to get another layer or Deo-D can carry Magic Coat and just screw you over while having another item like Lefties, Rocky Helmet, etc
    -Trying to go for the kill still allows me to get some hazards since you aren't killing Deo-D
    -Trick+Spin is alright but it doesn't actually stop me from getting hazards and I may have a Ghost giving you a hard time, BW spinning isn't so great
  24. Lavos Spawn

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    Yes, I mean it earnestly. If you gave me a button, and hitting the button would forever ban Deoxys-D from BW OU, I would come down that button with a closed fist. Guaranteed hazards is too broken.

    And yes, at least one layer of hazards is guaranteed if your set is completely dedicated to it. As TFC notes, the only really efficient way of stopping Deoxys-D is Magic Bounce. However, that limits your options to Espeon and Xatu. Espeon sucks outside of Baton Pass, and Xatu isn't much better, not to mention it can get OHKO'd by an Electric Gem Thunderbolt from Deo-D (yes that set exists, it's on-site iirc). Faster Taunt doesn't beat it, Deo-D can either run Magic Coat to reflect the Taunt back, or, in my opinion, the better option of Mental Herb, which blocks Taunt one time and lets Deoxys-D Taunt the original Taunt user, meaning they have to switch out and back in again while Deo-D gets up two layers of hazards. Pretty sure East was using that set in WCoP, seeing as they reached finals I'm going to assume it worked out well for them. You can't even OHKO Deoxys-D. Seriously, it's impossible bar a crit, assuming Deo-D has its EVs in the right place. Band Genesect doesn't OHKO if it has 4 EVs in Def, and vice versa for Bug Buzz Genesect. Band Scizor is too slow, ScarfTar doesn't even come close to an OHKO and BandTar is, again, too slow for the OHKO. Even the highest roll from a Specs Latios' Draco Meteor won't beat this monster.

    Ban-worthy? Hmm, I wonder.
  25. Somebody Anonymous

    Somebody Anonymous

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    That is why one uses cosmic power on Deoxys- D
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