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Handling Deoxys-D

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Doughboy, Oct 8, 2012.

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  1. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    You should really mention Mew somewhere. Lead Mew looks like this:

    [​IMG]
    Mew @ Expert Belt / Lum Berry | Synchronize
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psychic / Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    - Aura Sphere / Fire Plast / Flamethrower

    There are a million variants possible, Jimbon even used a physical set with Tailwind / Explosion in the last two slots. Or you could run WoW or some status to cripple Deoxys. The point is, Mew can outspeed Deo-D thanks to its higher Base Speed, Taunt it, and then start to support the team in various ways (setting up SR / Tailwind, or boosting and Baton Passing out? That should work, too). You either forced out Deo-D or have a Taunted Deo-D that can barely touch you with SToss / Psycho Boost / whatever, while you do some great work for your team.
  2. yee

    yee
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    I've never seen any Mew like that, but I have seen a bunch with Normal Gem Explosion and Zen Headbutt which seems accepted as the standard. If you're going to run that variant run Low Kick over Aura Sphere so Tran / Tar will take meaningful damage (and watch out for Tentacruel).

    The only 100% counter to all Deo-D leads on it's own is Xatu (or some weird Espeon) which should be made a point. Taunters still have to deal with Magic Coat, U-Turners with Tanga Berry, and spinners lose to one common variant or another bar Starmie which has to play guessing games to avoid getting trapped / Voltturned.
  3. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    a lot of solutions to deoxys-D tend to involve taunt because magic bounce can be rather difficult to shoehorn into a team with only two users, but really deoxys-D can beat almost any taunting anti-lead with magic coat - tfc gave it a brief mention (yee ninja'd me and mentioned it as well). forget this mental herb stuff that only works once and uses up the item slot (granted it only NEEDS to work once in most cases), deoxys isn't gonna be using night shade much anyway since it's a lead, and for a dedicated lead, once you're taunted you're useless to the team - have to switch out, come back in and THEN set up hazards, yeah bye bye momentum. if it's more important to pull hazards off the first time, magic coat definitely gives you the edge. moreover, magic coat will cripple many dedicated leads that aim to have an answer to deoxys-D, since those leads almost definitely carry taunt and you can throw it back in their faces then set up your own stuff (they can't taunt now that they're taunted).

    i'm not sure if this is a very good idea, but you could even drop the taunt and just run magic coat/night shade, since a lot of the things worth taunting are either opposing leads (which usually plan to beat deoxys-D so magic coat is more important) or opposing non-lead hazard setters, in which case you can start magic coat mindgaming their own hazards back at them. really though night shade's usefulness is rather limited from the perspective of hazards vs hazards gameplay.

    magic bounce still beats you if you run magic coat, but there's really nothing you can do about that anyway unless you run tbolt for xatu, and that only hurts xatu if you invest heavily (even then espeon still shrugs it off and either heals with morning sun or boosts up with cm). against bulky variants of deoxys, you can just spin, but deoxys might just keep throwing hazards down and someone's gonna get bored. besides, that mindset will usually get destroyed by suicidal modest LO sets who run coverage specifically to lure in and kill OU's spinners
  4. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    lol I'm probably the only person who doesn't hate or want to ban Deoxys-D.Anyway I used this set for some time on PO when Lavos Sun was too popular for comfort.

    Deoxys-D @ Psychic Gem/Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 72 HP / 252 SAtk / 184 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Psycho Boost
    - Thunderbolt/Thunder

    Attacking Lead!I hated using Genger just for the sake of spinblocking and Xatu really got on my nerves.This set aims to beat Spinners and Magic bouncers instead of using it's bulk to lay more hazards.I used Psychic Gem to OHKO Donphan after Rocks while Thunderbolt was used to 2HKO Xatu and Starmie.Xatu being so popular in early BW2 because of Techniloom hype and GeneSun this set was working very well.Even outside this,attacking Deo-D had got me many useful surprise kills.Life Orb and Thunder are from the analysis,Life Orb Thunder aims for OHKOing Starmie and 2HKOing Forry and Espeon but the unreliability isn't worth it imo.

    For handling opposing ones,outright killing it is what I use.Really,leads are designed to get at least SR up.With powerful attackers like Sheer Force Landorus you can easily restrict it to just Stealth Rocks.Like Lavos said Mental herb and Magic coat blocks fast taunters,taunts them back,they switch,Deo-D doesn,t get OHKOed and look,he still gets SR+1 layer of spikes.All the commonly used fast taunters fails to 2HKO this guy.

    However I don't think just because it is guaranteed to get SR up doesn't mean it's Ban worthy.Failing to prevent Deo-D from getting SR up doesn't really sound broken to me.
  5. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Yeah that Mew set makes sense too; it just needs Taunt to do the work, I listed that set to give a rough idea but it's likely that it's not the standard and something else is better / more used/ etc.

    Anyway, Xatu is indeed very good against the most used sets, but Electric Gem Suicide Lead with Thunderbolt 2HKOs always on the switch (well if SR are on the field, Electric Gem is not even needed). I never saw one, to be honest, but since it's listed onsite I guess it deserves a mention, too.
  6. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    Interesting OP, I like it. "The teams it spawns are unimaginitive" I wonder what they say about Politoed...

    Let's explore common rapid spinners:

    You have Tentacruel, Starmie, and Forretress. Of these, Tentacruel in the rain (Deo-D +weather is rare so it should be not so far fetched to have rain) beat all the common spin blockers, including Jellicent. Starmie can do this even without rain. Forretress loses to all rocky helmet or hp fire sets of course, so it's true Deo-D can beat some rapid spinners. Really though, Starmie is quite a good pokemon right now with Keldeo so common and Genesect unable to switch in, it is not so difficult to fit it onto a team.

    The best way to deal with it is to run Genesect or something that can outspeed OHKO it, but in this metagame, why wouldn't you use Tanga Berry? Still it's only 1 layer at that point, and there are other pokemon that can promise 1 layer every game and yet we don't see a call for bans on them (see Terrakion and soon Garchomp, for pokemon that will always get one layer, or even ferrothorn, it is the unusual team that prevents ferro from getting a layer up).


    Now the faster Taunt idea is pretty good, Magic Coat is not as useful as Night Shade, and if they do Magic Coat you can switch in your Keldeo, Terrakion, DDmence, Thundurus-t, Gengar or other fast abuser of Substitute and set-up on it. It'll get layers up, but you get to start a sweep which may or may not be worth it. Of course you need a very offensive team to use such a pokemon, but if you're using a fast Taunt pokemon it's safe to assume you're already using offense.



    I wouldn't call Deo-D manageable at all, but I think at least in BW1 based on WCOP it wasn't hideously unmanageable, and my Deo-D was getting wrecked on the suspect ladder. Good players have found ways of preventing it from getting spikes and SR up. I would take a long look at Tornadus-T and Genesect, and then Politoed, and then Ninetales before Deo-D.

    Also if you're trying to abuse Deo-D, don't bother with a spin blocker, those are so outdated. All you need is a Choice Rotom-w and a Lat@s. Go to Most Wanted's Apocalypse RMT, change Rotom-w to choice specs and Gengar to the Scarf pokemon of your choice. That's how I make all my teams.
  7. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    The best way to handle deoxys-d in my opinion is Magic Coat
    i've used with success this mew set

    Show Hide
    Mew @ Normal Gem
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Explosion
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Magic Coat


    well, it has magic coat, meaning that u can sponge back stealth rocks if your opponent do so, or taunt it back if it taunts you. if he does magic coat u can just wait till he has no more pp for that move, than u can taunt it and force it to switch out.

    another nice way is to use scarfgenesect modest with bug buzz, if he gets the sp.atk boost u will always shot deo-d.
  8. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    The main problem with this is that Deoxys can win just by spamming Magic Coat, because with Pressure you'll run out of Magic Coats two times faster than him, and at that point you either SR / taunt (whch bounce back) or you explode, which means you lost Mew and you accomplished nothing
  9. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    magic coat is not affected by pressure i think o.o
  10. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    I can neither confirm nor deny that, but even then, Mew is forced to spam Magic Bounce or get it's SR / Taunt bounced back, which is easily abusable. The whole thing turns into trying to blindly guess when he's going to get Deo-D out so you don't Magic Coat on the switch to something dangerous.
  11. HansiKurschG

    HansiKurschG

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    Gothithelle maybe? It can trap it and either just spam Shadow Ball with Specs or use as set up bait for CM, depending on the set. Also, it is viable in OU, as it's a general decent trapper. Duggy with a Dark move could also be used, but it's not nearly as effective.
    Pseudo trapping with pursuit also seems to e somewhat effective, being pulled by things such as Tyranitar or Scizor, but it generally fails to OHKO, and doesn't prevent another layer.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I don't get all the problems and the negativity with Deo-D. It is the best hazard setter for offensive teams, no doubt, and can also wreck an unprepared team, so what? Deo-D is easily abused if you have a plan for it, which you should.

    Rapid Spin + Recover Starmie is a very good way to beat most Deo-D (i rarely see Tbolt variants, hell even attacking variants are rare). You beat Deo-D one on one, and you also beat the only spinblocker found in offensive teams, Gengar so no hazards for the opponent.

    Magic Bounce pokes are hard counters as we have already said.

    Taunt Tornadus-T also works quite good against all Deo-D leads. Any decent player will assume that you are going to use Taunt when leading with Torn-T against their Deo-D, so use U-turn as the use Magic Coat or Taunt/T-Wave (if they have Mental Herb) and then go into your faster strong hitter that will be able to OHKO. If the opponent has neither Magic Coat nor Mental Herb it will probably switch out, so you still gain the upper hand with U-turn. If it is the attacking Deo-D it will go for Psycho Boost / Tbolt, so Latios and Genesect are good partners to handle those attacks. U-turn from Torn-T does 28.94 - 34.21% to Deo-D, so anything able to deal 70% or more to him beat it, such as Specs Latios, LO Gengar and CB Genesect (regardless of Download).

    Then even if you can't OHKO Deoxys-D, you will be able to 2hko it most of the times, while also outpeeding. So it will only get up SR most of the times. Most of the games i played against a Deo-D he either got SR up or nothing at all. So will we start banning things that always set-up SR now? because then i suppose we could also ban Focus Sash Aerodactyl and Focus Sash Terrakion...
  13. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego The little hand says it's time to rock and roll
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    I believe the difference between ferrothorn and deoxys to be this: if a ferrothorn comes in and you switch out to something that you know will ko it, such as volcarona or infernape, it sets up sr, you kill it, and are in a pretty favorable position. Now, when dealing with deoxys, you have Pokemon that can outspeed it, and Pokemon that can ko it, but few that can do both. Even things that do both, such as genesect, have a hard time with it. Killing deoxys with a CB tyranitar puts you at quite a momentum disadvantage with a HO team, such as an opposing lucario about to sd up, whereas with ferrothorn most things that can kill it retain enough momentum for a team. Deoxys not only garuntees SR up in a match, but forces you to also kill it that turn to prevent spikes up. That's the reason azelf exploded once it put up SR, to generate momentum for a team. If you DON'T kill that deoxys immediately, then it's got even more hazards up, but deoxys forces you to kill it right then and gives its team an indirect explosion in the process. You know you have to take it out as soon as possible, and that can be capitalized on.
  14. StairFall

    StairFall

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    So now I started running mental herb+skill swap to beat magic bounce. Feels good and let's me beat a few of the other counters, not just xatu/espeon.
  15. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    @alexwolf

    The main issue that people have with Deoxys-D is that he has so much versatility. I have yet to see a surefire counter to him, as he can really adapt to beat any threat. Taunt? He can use Mental Herb. Faster KOing (Like CB Genesect)? He can use resist berries, and due to the fact that there are so few Pokemon who can outspeed and OHKO him, its pretty easy to choose the appropriate and most effective berry. Magic Bounce? Skill Swap, while lesser used can have any Xatu Sun Team at his mercy. Rapid Spin? He can run different offensive sets to beat each spinner. I even remember ShakeItUp using an Electric Gem set to beat Starmie in Wcop. Boosters? It can Taunt slower boosters and can Thunder Wave faster ones. Even with Lum Berry they will be limited to a +1. Of course Deoxys-D can't run all of these sets at once, but the fact that there is not a surefire way to prevent hazards from getting up is what troubles most people.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    dragonuser i get what you mean. BUT you have to understand that most pokes do not have counters nowadays if they run lesser / outclassed sets. Yeah Skill Swap can be used to set-up against Magic Bounce pokes, but when you don't fight against such a team, you have basically wasted a moveslot. And do note that no MB poke is OU, so it's not like they are really common. And as i said again there many pokes that are faster than Deoxys-D and can 2hko him, so he will only get up SR. And again, what is so broken about a guaranteed SR, if it means your opponent losing a poke?

    Breloom can get around Celebi and Skarmory even after Sleep Clause has been activated. He can use a Technician boosted HP Fire, which with enough SpA investment can 2HKO those pokes. You want your Keldeo to get past Celebi, its best counter? Run an SD set with Aqua Jet / X-Scissor / Close Combat and SD of 'course. I could go on and on, but you will realize that almost any poke can beat its counters if it runs outclassed sets.

    Finally as all of us know by now, no counters doesn't equal to broken (not that Deo-D has no counters).
  17. TheFourthChaser

    TheFourthChaser #TimeForChange
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    I ran Focus Sash Aero throughout Suspect, it is nowhere near as good at setting up hazards as Deo-D is, same goes for Terra.

    Espy and Xatu are the Deo-D counters and they've already been mentioned enough.

    EDIT:
    Multiple posts have not just implied it but directly stated it lol, FUK DEO-D
  18. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    We are not, at least I am not, implying that Deoxys-D is broken. I was simply stating why he gets so much negative press and why many players do consider him broken. I was just saying that even if you do plan for Deoxys-D, he still has popular sets that can get around these aforementioned checks and can usually guarantee some form of hazards.
  19. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Yes, a lot of 'mons have weird ass sets that can be used to defeat their counters; but they are all inherently different from Deoxys - because you can scout for them.

    If I had some weird ass technician HP Fire Breelom, I'd make you conserve your Skarmory to "keep my Breelom in check" until it's weakened enough so that I can KO it and sweep; if I had a physical Keldeo, I wouldn't shove it up your nostrils from turn 1.

    Deo-D is a whole different story - you can't "scout" for it because your opponent is going to send it straight away. You have to take a guess at what's it going to be. Send your Gene? But maybe it's a Tanga Berry, will survive the U-turn and get 2 layers off. Send CB Ttar so that he only gets one rock? Woops, Fighting Gem + Low Kick. Throw Starmie at him, it'll Rapid Spin the hazards away and recover! Shit, Electric Gem Thunderbolt.

    Fighting against Deo-D is very similar to firing a gun in the dark - you never know what you're going to hit, how, and if the bullet will bounce back into your face.
  20. StairFall

    StairFall

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    ClubbingSealCub put it best, you can't scout D-D because it's a lead, and often a suicidal one. It can't be scouted because the only moves it runs are what it's there to do. There is no in between period in the middle of it being sent out and setting up.

    That is I think the main problem with D-D, it's a guessing game. You can't counter every one of its sets at once so you throw shit in and hope it shuts it down. By the time you know what it wants to do its already done it. D-D changing its set to beat its counters isn't the same as Breloom running hidden power. D-D is there to get hazards (or screens) down no matter what and die, it's totally feasible to run skill swap, tanga berry or magic coat because even if your opponent doesn't have the pokemon that that set eats it still does its job.

    Still don't think it's broken though, an uphill battle isn't an unfair battle.
  21. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    Mention Choice scarf ditto (Did I mention I love Imposter ditto) as a way to handle deoxys-D as a lead. It can use Deoxys' taunt against it. Or you can predict a switch and set up it's own hazards on it. An excellent way to combat Deoxys-D indeed.
  22. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte The Great Stone Dragon
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    To help counter Deoxys, I usually do one of two things-

    Carry a fast taunter. I've been toying with Cobalion recently, as some of you may know, it and easily outspeeds Deoxys and Taunts it. Pranksters such as Sableye/Whimsicott are also great ways to deal with the defensive behemoth. Lead Terrakion/Mixed Nape also occasionally carry Taunt, though it's relatively obvious when you send those in.

    OR

    Carry a spinner. Deoxys-D really can't touch Forretress/Starmie without using HP Fire/Thunderbolt, which only the offensive set has. Forretress is great because it can spin and also Gyro Ball Deoxys-D to death. It can also Volt Switch on the Taunt to quickly switch in a teammember for free. Starmie, on the other hand, can spin, tank status, as well as chip down Deoxys's health with repeated attacks.

    There are also many other smaller, yet still relatively effective ways to deal with Deoxys-D.

    Trick- Trick it a scarf/band/specs, and watch it fail. It's great set up bait when it's locked into SR, but watch out for the Scarf set, as it'll just Trick you right back. Also make sure you have a pokemon that can take advantage of the momentary advantage, so you can set up.

    Encore- pretty much the same as trick. It doesn't last as long, but doesn't smack you in the face when it fails either. If you're slower, however, you could be taunted, and that would be quite annoying.

    Status- Toxic pretty much shuts Deoxys-D down, but again watch out for Taunt. There are relatively few common pokemon that can outspeed Deoxys-D and toxic it. I've seen people speed creep with Tentacruel, but it's really not worth it, as you lose a lot of bulk. With this, prediction is key, as you'd want to catch it on the switch and decrease the risks of backfire.

    Just kill it- Any relatively strong super effective move can 2HKO Deoxys-D, as if it runs speed it'll lose bulk, and if it runs bulk it'll lose speed and you can try one of the above methods. U-Turn, Dark Pulse, and Shadow ball are all great ways you can eliminate the pokemon as a threat.

    This is general for dealing with all hazard setters.
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    @TFC

    Pls next time just quote me so it will be easier for me to answer.

    You said that teams with Jellicent and Deo-D can keep up hazards up very easy against spinners. First i have never seen any offensive team with Deo-D and Jellicent, which speaks for itself about the viability of this combo, and second both Starmie and Tentacruel beat Jellicent and non-attacking Deo-D.

    About the Magic Bounce pokes. If you run them alongside with Volt-turn support, then you don't have this risk. An example is Lavos Spawn's Sun team. Lead with Genesect against Deo-D. U-turn to Xatu if it stays in and to the appropriate poke if it switches out. When Xatu is in, simply U-turn out, as Deo-D is faster so he can't set-up while you switch, and if he switches out you play accordingly. Rinse and repeat. Easy no?

    About my example of Torn-T. Of 'course it is a game of prediction, but many times against dangerous pokes you have to predict to get around them, because there is no surefire way to beat them.

    You also say that it is incredibly easy for Deo-D to get at least 2 layers of hazards. Well i am not feeling you at all. Whenever i used or played against Deo-D he sets-up 2 layers of hazards at worst. Most of the times he would only get up SR, and sometimes even nothing at all. Most offensive and balanced teams have 1 or 2 pokes faster than Deo-D that can 2hko him, so getting up SR + Spikes is not as easy as you make it seem. If you know what you are doing btw, and don't ignore Deo-D when teambudlding, which i have seen many people do.

    And the last thing you said about Breloom and Keldeo is true, but still my comparison has some validity i think.

    Anyway just to clarify this, i don't even play HO usually (i am mostly a balance player), nor i am heavily accounting for Deo-D when teambuilding, he just gets covered usually. This is why i believe he is not broken. I can see why one would think he is, but for me, saying that he is obviously broken just screams people not wanting to prepare for him. And yes you can prepare for him, just read this thread.
  24. HansiKurschG

    HansiKurschG

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    Well, so if D-D plays mind games against us, why not playing mind games with D-D? I's already almost impossible to stop it from hazarding your field, so don't bother with it. Instead, using common U-turners, such as Scizor, Genesect and Landorus to setup Swords Dance or Rock Polish can actually put in a momentary advantage against your opponent, as most Deoxys won't bother Taunting them, although they'll die pretty early if you're careless.
    Using Zoroark + a Sleep inducer also seems good in theory, but it' not very effective against other types of team.
  25. TheFourthChaser

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    Sorry lol I thought it was easier to read that way. Anyway, Deo/Jelli is a fine combo people just don't run Jellicent because they were afraid Keldeo would be running CM sets to shit on it(which they don't) and Thund-t. Jellicent doesn't lose to all Starmie/Tenta, it's very set dependent. Throughout WCoP Jellicent was mentioned as the bane of Rain Stall because the average Tenta ran Scald/Toxic Spikes/Spin/Protect which can't touch Jellicent. Starmie only beats Jelli with Thunder or Toxic, Toxic is pretty rare lately and Thunder can be prevented with a weather change(so yes I'm implying Deo/Jelli/Ttar which is a fine combo). Jellicent is just underrated in the current metagame, it's very offensive. The metagame being so offensive not only lowers jelly usage but makes spinning hard to do, even for a fast spinner like Starmie. Part of the reason Excadrill was so good was because it was a spinner that had the power to scare the metagame.

    Again, it's not as easy as you say it is. Deoxys doesn't actually have to lead everytime, especially if a player recognized a team that looked like Lavos's and prepared for it. I can try playing an offense game(again team dependent, fuckin BW) to lure and remove Xatu. So while not exactly hard it's still very possible and definitely harder than you make it out to be.

    I think you're talking about ladder games and honestly, ladder is terrible. Deoxys might not seem as impressive and may not get as many layers because the players on ladder are just doing it wrong. Deoxys doesn't have a great usage number and part of that is "I can't get this to work" from ladder. Reading this thread hasn't really given me any new idea of how to stop Deoxys and part of the reason teams can have some natural preparation for it is the huge amount of Genesect running around. This would work as a point if Genesect weren't arguably broken itself(personally, I think so but I'm not trying to open that argument up).

    People have been playing these Deo-D mindgames since Deo-S was banned. It can be an annoying situation for both players but it doesn't actually prevent hazards from being set up. Scizor and Volcarona, two mons that were very good at these mind games, are decreasing in usage because of Genesect and Drizzle. Genesect can cause some good early damage but the most common way the damage is done is through U-Turn which means if I live I have the possibility of getting 2 layers.

    I liked the Zoroark example in the OP since it was a good, creative idea(which I'm not really expecting from the forums). That is a good mindgame set up and I'm Zoroark biased lol, I think it's a very underrated mon.
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