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Haste makes waste: a Trick Room RMT (Peaked #9 in PS!)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by shiranai, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Haste makes waste: a Trick Room RMT

    [​IMG]

    Hi Smogoners, this is my first RU RMT, and also my first around a Trick Room team, since this is my first successful TR team. BW2 created a lot of aggressive metagames, from Ubers to NU, and RU is no exception. Trick Room is, basically, an anti-metagame way to play pokémon, since almost everything is based in who hit first, and Trick Room completely disrupts this. Trick Room is so awkward that it even let rain, sand and sun stays at the same time. So,now I presents my team "Haste makes waste".

    Team building
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Trick Room is similiar to a weather, so I need someone to set it. Uxie is one of the best weather setuppers around, packing nice bulk and support moves, being both a Stealth Rocks and Trick Room setupper.
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    Trick Room, unfortunately, doesn't have a rock like the others weathers, so another setupper was needed. Oddly, Uxie's broher, Mesprit, can do a similar role, but packing more power in exchange of some bulky.
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    The emotion siblings are nice setuppers, but lack power to sweep. Slowking, on the other hand, can both setup Trick Room and be a threat right away thanks to its STABs and high SAtk. Also, thanks to Regenerator, Slowking still is kind of a bulky water.
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    With all the TR setuppers chosen I needed the TR abusers. Aggron is one of the most famous of them. Quite "fast" and packing nice coverage moves, at the same time it can wall the common normal sweepers of the tier are the points that got him this spot.
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    Everyone knows that dragons have the best coverage around, not hitting only steels for neutral damage. And most players know that good steel types are quite rare outside the OU environment. This way, Druddigon have everything a TR sweeper needs: nice coverage, low speed and a nice STAB with great Atk status.
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    The idea of making a whole team dependant to Trick Room never made may mind, so I decided to chose a poke that could have decent coverage and Atk and a nice Spe status. Scarf Cinccino was my choice, since, thanks to its speed, it can finish the work my sweepers couldn't finish before, being vulnerable only to (really) fast Scarfers and priority moves.


    The Team
    [​IMG]
    Uxie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Trick Room
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Stealth Rock

    Uxie is my main lead thanks to its bulk. With these EVs Uxie can take some hits before fainting, setting Trick Room at least twice since it is quite hard to 2HKO this guy, even with some super-effective moves. Notice that both nature and IVs doesn't lower Spe, this way Uxie can use a "slow" U-Turn, being able to hit after some pokes and protecting my sweppers from damage, making them more durable. Heal Bell is kind of a filler move, but a nice one, getting rid of burns from my team, even though they doesn't mind burns so much. Stealth Rocks helps making some 2HKO in OHKO, and thanks to the power of the other team members many switchs are forced, giving more free damage. If Uxie is defeated too fast I can get in trouble, since the other can't set Trick Room as well as this one.
    As said by col49 and supported by Texas Cloverleaf, and later also noticed by
    myself, Heal Bell wasn't doing anything for me. This opened a slot for Psychic, and also a change in nature because of this.
    I ended giving up in Psychic and putting Toxic instead thanks to the low SAtk of Uxie, not giving enough damage to justify the use of the STAB. Toxic, otherwise, give me a way to break Cresselia, that can hold the whole team alone.

    [​IMG]
    Aggron (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - Head Smash
    - Heavy Slam
    Aggron is an awesome pokemon in paper: carries a steel type, packs nice Def and Atk base status and have a large movepool. Unfortunately,Aggron has many downsides: 4x weakness to fighting and ground and low SDef and Spe. Even though, under a Trick Room, Banded Aggron is a monster. Head Smash and Heavy Slam are the STABs moves, and the main one to use; Head Smash can even 2HKO some fightings it hit in the switch, while Heavy Slam is, most of the times, a reliable 100 accuracy move. Earthquake is for coverage, hitting opposing steels harder than its STABs moves would. Fire Punch is only a filler at all, since even Tangela get more damage from Head Smash. Predict here isn't quite needed since Head Smash is the prefered move; both Hitmons are easily 2HKO, while the others fights are easily countered by Mesprit, while the emotion siblings can take Earthquakes all day long. The current IVs are for max "speed" with Trick Room, while the EVs are for better bulk, since Aggron can't take even some resisted special moves, this way Aggron can retaliate priority moves, except for Mach Punch and Vaccum Wave.
    Changes in the EVs spread, also thanks to col49 and Texas Cloverleaf, so Aggron could cover Hail teams wasier.

    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Healing Wish
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt
    Mesprit is the second Trick Room setupper, but, even similar, it is completely different to Uxie. Mesprit still carry some bulk since the offensive sibling is Azelf, but is way more offensive than Uxie. Psychic can hit hard enough, netting a 2HKO in Tangela, one of the few things that can wall both Druddigon and Aggron; Psychic is preferable instead of Psyshock because my other attackers are physical oriented, otherwise making physical walls hard to take down. Healling Wish works similar as U-Turn in Uxie, but with a bonus: making the incoming sweeper being able to fight again, despite status or current HP. Thunderbolt is the only move I'm not quite sure since Psychic getall the coverage I want from it, and the bulky water mons that can give me some problems are the ones that carries a ground type.

    [​IMG]
    Druddigon (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Outrage
    - Sucker Punch
    - Superpower
    - Dragon Claw
    Druddigon may be completely outclassed in OU, but in the lower tiers it is awesome. With the lack of good defensive steel types both Outrage and Dragon Claw can hit almost the whole tier for neutral damage; Outrage, also, has a nice think: even though you lose control of Druddigon for 2-3 turns, most of the times Trick Room will be avaiable for the dragon for 3 turns, so with a 2-turn Outrage I can switch it back and set Trick Room again, while with a 3-turn Outrage I will get at least 2 KOs. Sucker Punch is a way to counter opposing priority moves, since under Trick Room it is hard to hit before Druddigon. Superpower is also for coverage since there still is a few steel in the tier that can't be 2HKO'ed by Outrage, like Aggron. Just like Aggron, predict isn't so needed, but here is thanks to Outrage coverage.
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    Slowking (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Psychic
    Slowking is already quite famous with this set. Now, with RU without Cofragigus, Slowking is the best special Trick Room sweeper around. Like most Trick Room sweepers Slowking will not hit more than 3 times per switch, this way Regenerator can recover the damage Life Orb did to Slowking. Just like Mesprit, Psychic is prefered so I can hit SDef instead. Surf is here for the STAB, and Fire Blast is to hit the biggest threat to the team, named Tangela. Obviously, EVs, IVs and nature are these so I can get the best of Slowking under Trick Room, while avoiding further damage from confusion.

    [​IMG]
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    Cinccino (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Seed
    - Rock Blast
    - Tail Slap
    - U-Turn
    This italian bunny is here thanks to a prefereance of me. Most Trick Rooms teams carries only sweepers that works under Trick Room or a poke that carriy a nice priority like Sucker Punch or Extremespeed. But sometimes things doesn't go the way you wish, and a backup plan is needed. Scarf Cinccino can be a great revenge killer and late game sweeper. Thanks to its amazing 115 speed base status it is quite hard to outspeed it, even without a Jolly nature. Skill Link transformed the average Technician buld and a real threat, giving 125 BP to Bullet Seed and Rock Blast, and an even more stronger Tail Slap. Despite the bad accuracy of the moves Cinccino can deal with many flying, ground and frail sweepers, making easier to deal with most teams, even without Trick Room. For real, U-Turn is a real filler, since the bunny only enters the field to get a KO.

    Threats
    Untill now the only thing that really gave me a real hard time was Tangela; Eviolite, Regenerator and Leech Seed made him a hard pokemon to deal. Crescelia is another problem, but really easier to deal than Tangela, but not less annoying since without a super-effective move it is hard to take it down. Otherwise most offensive threats are destroyed by Trick Room.


    If you read till here, I really thank you. If you can make a comment, being it a compliment or a criticism, with or without a change, I would appreciate even more. Lastly, if you liked it you can always Luvdisc.
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    Grey Knight likes this.
  2. Fotographic

    Fotographic

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    If U-turn is just filler on Cinccino, you should run Aqua Tail or Wake-Up Slap to make sure Steel-types don't totally shut you down. Aqua Tail is relatively strong even without 2X, but Wake-Up Slap can be run for some super-effectiveness. Just be warned that Wake-Up Slap is fairly weak.
  3. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Hum... True, I forgot Cinccino got Aqua Tail. Wake-Up Slap doesn't seem a good idea outside a Technician build for me... Actually this need some calcs and tests. Thanks for pointing it for me.
  4. col49

    col49 unpolished
    is a Contributor to Smogon
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    Hey shiranai, nice team, cool to see a post-Cofagrigus Trick Room team :] If it's ok with you, I'd like to try to make some suggestions to improve upon your team.

    As you mention, Heal Bell isn't overly useful on your team, as taking the time to Heal Bell and remove status really kills offensive momentum. I would look into the use of Psychic, which offers a good reliable STAB move to pressure Fighting-types that Uxie switches into. Moreover, as you really don't need Attack as much so as Special Attack, I would suggest utilizing a Bold nature over your current one. However, I would recommend against minimizing your Attack EVs. While this is a generally accepted practice, the extra damage from U-Turn actually can come in handy. For instance, a Psychic+U-Turn from a 31 Atk IV Uxie does 25.21-4026% to a +1 Bulk Up Gallade, whereas a 0 IV variant only does 23.4-28.18%, which is the difference between it maintaining it's Substitute or not!

    Personally, I would run a spread of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD on Aggron. While the added physical bulk is nice, with Hail being reintroduced into the tier Aggron really appreciates the extra special padding to take on Blizzards, and while I realize he isn't your primary switch for that sort of thing it never hurts to be careful !_!

    While I understand Cincinno's place in the team, I don't feel as though you optimize that teamslot. As it stands, Steel-types (Steelix in particular) are quite troublesome for your team, forcing your primary heavy hitters to avoid locking themselves into their STAB moves, with only Slowing aptly handling them. Moreover, powerful Sucker Punch users like Absol really trouble your team (as with most TR teams really :[ ), forcing you to risk 50-50 predictions switching Pokemon such as Aggron in. Cincinno further exposes these issues more so then it does reduce issues imo. If I may, I'd like to recommend using Status Orb Hariyama in it's stead. It's natural bulk and Fighting typing makes it a solid switch-in to Dark-types, and it's useful 1-2 punch of Fake Out+Bullet Punch allow it to check frailer sweepers fairly well, while still functioning quite well in Trick Room. Moreover, with it's "immunity" to status it serves as an excellent response to Smeargle leads, who can usually get a Spore+2 layers of hazards up against TR teams no problem. Here's my suggested set:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Hariyama @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge / Ice Punch
    - Bullet Punch


    Tl;dr:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    • Heal Bell ---> Psychic
    • Impish ---> Bold
    • 0 Atk IVs ---> 31 Atk IVs

    [​IMG]
    • 140 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Def ---> 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD

    [​IMG] ---> [​IMG]


    That said, I hope my suggestions were of use to you, good luck bud =)
  5. Celever

    Celever

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2,690
    Wow. This is a very solid team. However 3 trick room setters seems a bit.. extreme. Especially as none have a switch-out move. If you get rid of one though (I suggest mesprit) then i would suggest an octillery to cover up and patches you miss. In one set I'm pretty sure you can hit every type for neutral, but is there is a pokemon that is giving you grief then octillery it. Tangela, he gets flamethrower and ice beam. Cresselia, shadow ball or dark pulse. I think that 3 trick room setters is too much, sort of taking away the ability for the team to really get out and sweep.

    I luvdisc'd though; great team! :D
  6. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

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    No. 3 TR setters is not extreme at all. With TR, which lacks a length window of opportunity to act you need the versatility of being able to set and threaten your opponents at a moment's notice. His Uxie even carries U-Turn has a switch out move which kind of invalidates your argument.

    I support col49s suggestions btw
  7. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Thanks for the feedback guys! Now, what I think about it:
    Indeed, I was really missing another offensive move in Uxie, and Heal Bell was healing more Uxie itself than the others. And for some odd reason I thought it was 0 Atk, but actually is 31, so everithing is fine. Uxie changes will definetely come in.
    Now on Aggron, the changes seems nice too. Even without investment it still pack a decent Def status and, even though I still didn't faced one, hail teams are really back in action. I could try the changes, specially because Accelgor was hitting it too hard with a simple Bug Buzz.
    But I'm not completely OK with Cinccino. Steel types really give me a hard time (even making me to think in running a Mold Breaker EQuake Druddigon instead of Superpower), but thanks to its highspeed Cinccino gave me many, many wins. I can test it since my main weakness is steel types and see if I miss the bunny or not. This will need test and see what happens.


    Like Texas Cloverleaf already said, and I felt during my gameplay, 3 Trick Room setupers is needed so the team can be successful. Octillery is an awesome sweeper under Trick Room, but I can't afford a team spot for him. Opposing to Slowking, the octopus can't setup TR for itself, despite having one of the oddiest and, at the same time, most amazing movepool around. But still, thanks for the feedback and the Luvdisc.
  8. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    I tested the changes, and this is my results:

    Uxie: Uxie didn't do so well as I thought. Psychic wasn't doing enough damage thanks to its low SAtk. i don't know, Psychic still is better than Heal Bell, but I'm thinking in Toxic, so I could have an answer to Crescelia. More testing in this one.

    Aggron: the new EV spread did well. Most physical damages didn't do a lot of damage thanks to its already high Def and steel typing, while every super-effective (except for physical water) would defeat him.

    Cinccino => Hariyama: I think it was luck, but the matches I tested Hariyama I missed Cinccino, and vice-versa u.u no actual answers at all.
  9. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Hiya shiranai, I really like your team! Trick Room teams can really turn the tables when executed properly.

    Trick Room teams want to pace the hurt as much as possible, and regain its strength quickly when Trick Room ends, using great synergy.

    I don't think Cinccino does an optimal job. I understand that you want a fast Pokemon that can clean teams once Trick Room has shattered their hopes. A Choiced-user isn't the best for this because then the opponent can just change Pokemon to resist the attack. In addition, Tangrowth gives you a lot of problems, and Cresselia isn't very nice either. To help deal with them, I suggest Bouffalant. Bouffalant can switch into any Grass-type attack, such as Sleep Powder and Spore, with ease thanks to Sap Sipper. Additionally, Bouffalant is really slow, so it can "outspeed" anything. Bouffalant helps to deal with Steelix as well, which can switch into Druddigon and Aggron with ease.

    The Bouffalant set can set up a Swords Dance easily thanks to its bulk. Once Bouffalant reaches +2 or +3 it can wreak havoc with Head Charge or Earthquake in Steelix's case. The downside is that you do lose a fast Choice Scarfer, but you gain another sweeper, which can hasten the opponent's downfall.

    set (open)

    [​IMG]
    Bouffalant@Leftovers
    Adamant | Sap Sipper
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Head Charge
    - Earthquake


    Hope I helped ^.^
  10. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    hey, thanks! And Bouffalant seems to be a nice idea. Lilligant don't have a safe switch thanks to Sleep Powder, and Tangela can't do much to him either; I think Bouffa can even break Cresselia. Shame this set can't touch Rotom, but Rotom can't do a lot against either Druddigon or Aggron. And different of Hariyama, which also carries a lot of power, it doesn't have to have an status to run rampant, and Hariyama could't hit Rotom quite well too. Definitely I could test him.
    But I'm still not sure about taking Cinccino out, even though most people are saying to do it. The bunny got me many wins thanks to its speed OUTSIDE Trick Room, and it can even break some weaker subs...

    And I finally appeared in the top100 ladder of the suspected tier, and even with some Cresselias in my way I managed to dig a #9, battling with the same team in the OP.

    [​IMG]

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