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Haste makes waste (Final Version)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by shiranai, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    Haste makes waste: a Trick Room RMT

    [​IMG]
    Like a month ago I did this team, during the Cresselia suspect round (that you can see here). Unfortunatelly this team had terrible times against Cresselia, but now it is gone, I managed to ladder quite well with the team (peaked 9th in PS!) but now I dropped really hard, for reasons from hax to misplays, and I'm not with the will to recover all the points... So, I decided to retire this team, and see what you, smogoners, have to say about it.

    Team building
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Trick Room is similiar to a weather, so I need someone to set it. Uxie is one of the best weather setuppers around, packing nice bulk and support moves, being able to both set a Stealth Rocks and Trick Room.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Trick Room, unfortunately, doesn't have a rock like the weathers, so another setupper was needed. Oddly, Uxie's broher, Mesprit, can do a similar role, but packing more power in exchange of some bulky.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The emotion siblings are nice setuppers, but lack power to sweep. Slowking, on the other hand, can both setup Trick Room and be a threat right away thanks to its STABs and high SAtk. Also, thanks to Regenerator, Slowking still is kind of a bulky water.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    With all the TR setuppers chosen I needed the TR abusers. Aggron is one of the most famous of them. Quite "fast" and packing nice coverage moves, at the same time it can wall the common normal sweepers of the tier are the points that got him this spot.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Everyone knows that dragons have the best coverage around, not hitting only steels for neutral damage. And most players know that good steel types are quite rare outside the OU environment. This way, Druddigon have everything a TR sweeper needs: nice coverage, low speed and a nice STAB with great Atk status.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The idea of making a whole team dependant to Trick Room never made may mind, so I decided to chose a poke that could have decent coverage and Atk and a nice Spe status. Scarf Cinccino was my choice, since, thanks to its speed, it can finish the work my sweepers couldn't finish before, being vulnerable only to (really) fast Scarfers and priority moves.
    And this is how the team presented during the suspect round.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    I still tested two other members in place of Cinccino: Guts Hariyama and Swords Dance Bouffalant, suggest in the other RMT. Even though they did well, I ALWAYS missed the speed Cinccino had, so this is the reason it got the last spot of the team.



    The Team
    [​IMG]
    Uxie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Trick Room
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Stealth Rock

    Uxie is really bulk, being one of the best setupers of any weather of the tier, while also packing a nice support movepool. Trick Room is the main strategy of the team, being the main move of the set. Stealth Rock is the best hazard around, and most teams runs a spinner, which gives me a free turn to either set Trick Room, get a free switch or nail a free KO while they spin off the Rock. Unfortunately Uxie doesn't carry Taunt, so Toxic is the only answer it have to against setup sweepers while crippling some walls like Quagsire and Sandslash, which depending of the set i'm not able to 2HKO with my other sweepers. U-Turn is the way Uxie have to give a safe switch to my sweepers, even with no investment Uxie still is fast, making it moves last under Trick Room against many pokemon, making sure either Aggron or Druddigon will keep max HP to sweep, avoiding been revenge killed by Mach Punchs and Aqua Jets; this safe switch it may give is also the reason of not running a nature that lower its speed.

    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Healing Wish
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt

    Mesprit is the second Trick Room setuper, but have a completely different role than Uxie. Mesprit have all around stats, making it less bulky than its sibling but more offensive too. This way Mesprit can set Trick Room while still being able to hit a few threats hard enough as long as it can hit a super-effective move. Mesprit is one of the best answers to Nidoqueen, since Levitate avoid being hit by Earth Power while Psychic can KO it; Mesprit can counter any fighting type too as long as it isn't named Gallade since Medicham doesn't have enough bulk to avoid a 2HKO. Thunderbolt is here only as a coverage move, even not covering many things in truth (Azelf must be really grateful for getting fire moves, which its siblings lack). But Healing Wish is where Mesprit shines; Trick Room sweepers need a safe switch to safely come in the field, and Healing Wish is the perfect move for it: it avoid the next pokemon being hit, while recovering it to full health. Keep in mind that Healing Wish's recovery happens BEFORE hazards damage, making it possible to either Druddigon and Aggron come back to action even with extremely low HP, a hard task since both are hit by Spikes.

    [​IMG]
    Slowking @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Psychic
    Slowking now doesn't suffer with the competition with Cofragigus as the best special Trick Room sweeper in the tier. And different from the emotion siblings, Slowking can actually attempt a sweep under Trick Room. Slowking is also my main response to Steelix, since both Surf and Fire Blast can KO the iron snake. Even though not the best one, Slowking is also able to deal with most steel walls and Tangrowth; but as I said, Slowking isn't the best one because since Klingklang packs Wild Charge, while Ferrorseed still is a plant type. But without Slowking I wouldn't be able to break most defensive cores from opposing teams, since Druddigon and Aggron isn't able to break all physical walls of the tiers without a lot of predictions. Surf and Fire Blast are to break these walls, but Psychic is also needed to accomplish this job. Without Psychic Lanturn and Qwilfish (which can be annoying thanks to Intimidate) could wall Slowking completely, while it couldn't reliable counter fighting pokemon that populates the tier.



    [​IMG]
    Aggron @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - Head Smash
    - Heavy Slam

    Aggron is a monster under Trick Room. Period. With its huge base attack power Aggron can easily OHKO most pokemon that doesn't resist Head Smash, while being able to 2HKO many threats that resist Head Smash. With a Choice Band, Aggron have a chance to OHKO even most +2 Sigilyph sets, while still being able to OHKO unboosted Sigilyph with a burn. Actually, Aggron packs so much Atk that many times it doesn't care with a burn, and when it does cares with the burn it can be healed with Mesprit's Healing Wish. As stated, steel walls can give me huge problems, resisting rock and dragon moves, making coverage moves to hit these types needed; in Aggron I opted for Fire Punch and Earthquake. Both aren't a lot used because it needs some prediction to work well, but Fire Punch can work really well to finish Ferrorseed, being able to always land a KO in special defensive ones, while having a small chance to OHKO full health physical defensive builds. Steelix, otherwise, cannot be taken down with prior damage, being this the reason these coverage moves aren't used at all. Heavy Slam is an option to hit hard some fighting since, well, Aggron is quite heavy while most pokemon in RU isn't, but, just like the coverage moves, some times a resisted Head Smash can do as much as damage. You may also keep in mind that, except for Mach Punch, Aggron doesn't take a lot of damage from priority moves, for example, +2 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops's Aqua Jet max damage is 71%, being unable to KO Agrron without some prior damage, proving why it is such a monster under Trick Room.

    [​IMG]
    Druddigon @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Outrage
    - Sucker Punch
    - Superpower
    - Dragon Claw

    When I first build this team Druddigon wasn't used so much. Fortunately now Druddigon's usage is rising, and for a good reason: it is awesome. Druddigon packs a lot of power for the tier, and being a dragon type gives it a lot of chances of switch, being able to work quite well even without Trick Room set. Druddigon is my answer to most sets of Gallade, having a chance in four of KOing a +1 Bulk Up Gallade with Outrage. And just like Aggron, Druddigon hardly uses its other moves besides Outrage, and almost like Aggron too many times it doesn't get bothered by a burn. Indeed, most problems I stated with Aggron repeats with Druddigon, except for the fighting pokemon, and its covering moves are here to cover it. Superpower hits Steelix a bit harder than Aggron's Earthquake, but even though it still is need prediction and prior damage to deal with it without Slowking, while Sucker Punch helps Druddigon works without Trick Room better. Dragon Claw, well, theorymon says that Dragon Claw is for when you don't want to be lock in Outrage, but most of the times I DO want to be locked in Outrage; maybe I could have used another coverage move, but Sheer Force would be needed for this, and I really got used to nails some KOes with Rough Skin, so I didn't tested it at all.

    [​IMG]
    Cinccino @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd/ 4 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Seed
    - Rock Blast
    - Tail Slap
    - Sleep Talk
    Cinccino is by far the poke that is least needed in the team, but also it is the one that will be missed the most if it leaves the team. In reality, most games Cinccino not even touches the field, but there are also some matches that I could sweep and only won because of this italian bunny. Thanks to Skill Link both Bullet Seed and Rock Blast reach 125 BP, and Tail Slap a bit more with STAB; this way Cinccino can KO almost everything it can land a super-effective hit or doesn't have amazing defenses. Cinccino is a great late game sweeper mainly because there isn't many pokes that doesn't take at least 50% of damage from one of its moves, and late game is when it is harder to set a Trick Room too. Oddly enough Cinccino manages to survive some priority moves: it can take a +2 Life Orb Timid Kabutops's Aqua Jet with Stealth Rock while retaliates with Bullet Seed, the same happens with Choice Band Adamant Entei's Extremespeed with Rock Blast. The forth move was always a filler, and the best one I found was Sleep Talk, making Cinccino an answer to Smeargle and Lilligant, bypassing Focus Sash from the painter and outspeeding +1 Lilligant. Also, as the most disposable member of the team it is the perfect poke to take Tangrowth's Sleep Powder, without becoming completely useless, and serves as a sacrifice to get Druddigon or Aggron a safe switch.

    Threat list
    Show Hide
    Since Trick Room is a kind of anti-metagame there isn't many threats, but there still some things to take note:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Steel Pokemon: Most physical walls can be broken with Druddigon's Outrage and Aggron's Head Smash, but pokemon that carry a steel typing can't. The team have ways to play around them, but without them down the team can't get a clean sweep.
    [​IMG][​IMG]Cosmic Power sweepers: The major problem is only they can setup on me, since the team lacks a phazer. If they manage to get a +3 (which isn't as hard as it seems thanks to Head Smash accuracy) it is gg, unless I get a critical hit, but, well, if them get a +3 it is almost gg to most teams at all.
    [​IMG]Bulk Up Gallade: This one is just like the Cosmic Power duo: if it get a +2 it is a gg since I'll miss the OHKO while it may recovers all the damage with Drain Punch.
    [​IMG]Escavalier: Escavalier deserves a spot here, being the only real threat. First because it outspeeds Druddigon and Aggron under Trick Room, and second because Slowking isn't a safe way to deal with it and neither emotion siblings can actually hit it hard enough. Can take a lot before being taken down.
    [​IMG]Defensive Tangrowth: This works a lot like the steel walls: I'll miss 2HKO thanks to either Giga Drain or Leech Seed and the best option I have to deal with it is Slowking.






    Importable

    Show Hide


    Uxie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Trick Room
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Stealth Rock


    Aggron (M) @ Choice Band Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Head Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Heavy Slam
    - Fire Punch


    Mesprit @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Healing Wish
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt


    Druddigon (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Outrage
    - Sucker Punch
    - Superpower
    - Dragon Claw


    Slowking (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Psychic


    Cinccino (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Seed
    - Rock Blast
    - Tail Slap
    - Toxic

    Fell free to try this team, since most Trick Room teams in the tier will look a lot with this one.
  2. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    114
    I'm bumping this. No rates?
  3. Yosh SiliS

    Yosh SiliS

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    38
    I wish I had seen this team sooner. I love seeing Trick Room teams, no matter what tier. I really like this idea, and I can just imagine how much damage your heavy hitters deal out. I will surely try this team out and let you know what I think.
    You may want to do something about having so many psychic types on this team. Slowking and Uxie seem to fit well, and I bet mesprit works well with them, but maybe try someone else to add more diversity. Example:

    Dusknoir @ leftovers
    Brave Nature
    252 DEF / 252 HP / 4 SPD
    - Trick Room
    - Toxic / Taunt / Will-o-wisp / Pain Split
    - Curse / Pain Split
    - Substitute / Shadow Sneak

    This could be a more defensive Trick Roomer, and it can help with gallade escavalier, and tangrowth threats. You could also try a Sub Punch set if you want it to be more offensive. It was just a thought. I'll get back to you once I try the team. It honestly looks like a lot of fun to use.
  4. Poopboi

    Poopboi

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
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    I would recommend replacing Mesprit with a specially defensive Amoonguss to deal with the massive threat of Choice Specs Sceptile.
  5. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    I also think mesprit should be replaced. Try using one of the best trickroom abusers, Escalavier. It's sheer power and decent bulk will make it a nice addition to your team.
  6. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
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    Dusknoir seems a good idea, since it can be a way to set Trick Room facing a Durant, something all my psychics can't. But the problem is which pokemon Dusknoir would take the place... Uxie is a must since it can either set Trick Room and Stealth Rock, Slowking is my main answer to Steelix and Ferroseed, while Mesprit is the reason this team laughs to hazards and even burns... To be sincere, I couldn't replace any of these 3 guys without a very strong and good reason. And fell free to use this team, since I'm kinda of getting upset of Aggron's misses lol.

    Unless Sceptile is carring a Choice Scarf (and that would be really stupid) this team can deal quite easily with it. Non-Unburden Sceptile can be outrun by Cinccino and KO'ed by Tail Slap; physical Unburden can't hit Uxie at all, while special Unburden is quite rare, thankfuly, but still can be played around. Also, most of the times, when Sceptile comes in, TR is up, meaning it won't outspeed any member of my team bar Cinccino.

    Mesprit could only be replaced, and I need a really strong reason for this, for another Trick Room setter instead of a sweeper. I really considered Escavalier for this team, specially during Cresselia's round, but Megahorn is way more easier to be walled than Outrage and Head Smash, even though Escavalier have the awesome ability to outspeed even Slowking under a Trick Room. Escavalier will always be an option, but not in place of Mesprit, unfortunately.

    Thanks for all the feedback guys, and, even though I forgot to say in the OP, you are free to try this team, since I'm not playing with it a lot anymore. And I wasn't expecting a rate for it anymore too, so really thanks.
  7. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    I actually think cinncino should be replaced with something else. Offensive Nidoqueen or aerodactyl seem like better options. They both are stronger than cinncino and seem like they have good type synergy with most of your team.
  8. shiranai

    shiranai

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
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    Aerodactyl seems a good idea, mainly because I prefer my last resource being faster with a Scarf than the majority (if not all) of Scarfers of the tier, giving me a chance to deal with +1 Speed pokemon too, and even +2, since these will most of the times KO my TR setuppers. Even though, Cinccino is able to hit harder with a Scarf than most pokemon, including Aerodactyl, thanks to Skill Link.
    What my last pokemon seeks is outspeeding fast scarfers, like Manectric and Primeape, and still being able to OHKO it. Take note of a few calcs I did to choose Cinccino instead of other scarfer, for exampe I'll compare with Scarf Aerodactyl, which would be a bulkier option:VS Scarf Primeape:
    252+ Atk Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 275-330 (101.47 - 121.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Scarf Primeape is outspeeded by Scarf Cinccino
    252+ Atk Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 186-219 (68.63 - 80.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 268-316 (83.48 - 98.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    VS Scarf Manectric:
    252+ Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 310-366 (110.32 - 130.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 252-296 (78.5 - 92.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Skill Link Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 275-330 (97.86 - 117.43%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Manectric Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cinccino: 198-234 (67.8 - 80.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    These are only two examples. Overall, Cinccino can hit most things harder thanks to STAB Skill Link Tail Slap, even with a lower base attack. Even not being able to OHKO most threats I'm used to KO with Cinccino, Aero seems really worth a spot.

    Offensive Nidoqueen is a totally different story. I could get Max HP and SAtk so I could use under Trick Room, but I'll lose my sweeper outside TR, while being a little more vulnerable to opposing Nidoqueens since there won't be a speed tie; a Max Spe and SAtk still carry some nice speed and bulk, and Queen still isn't fast enough to not be a threat under TR. This also deserves some testing, even more than Aero, to be honest.

    Still, I'm not quite open to get rid of Cinccino, but you really gave me some ideas. Thanks for the feedback.
  9. Magcargo

    Magcargo
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    If raw power and high speed is what you are looking for, try testing out sceptile, Rotom-c and Scolipede. While cinncino is a hard hitter, Sceptile is a nuke on the special side. With CScarf or Specs, Leaf storms, it can hit quite hard and has access to focus blast for coverage. Rotom-C has better typing and bulk as well as trick and thunderbolt, so it might be a solid option. Scolipede can be a lead pokemon and set up spikes. Access to swords dance means that megahorn can hit quite hard. However, get rid of a pokemon that isn't useful at all
  10. silenced

    silenced

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    While I know very little of RU's meta, one thing you could try over a scarfer is a trickroom user with focus sash and magic guard if you're having trouble with getting trick room set up late game. Pity the only two pokemon able to do this in RU are duosion and sigilyph, but I used such a gimmick sigilyph in a UU trickroom team and I thought it fared okay.

    Sigilyph @ Focus sash
    Quiet Nature
    252 HP, 252 Spa, 4 Sp def
    -Trick room
    -Whirlwind
    -Psyshock/Psychic
    -Air slash

    The nice thing about sigilyph is that it can double as both a last resort TR setter and also what I essentially refer to as a golden bullet against sweepers, either neutering speed, or neutering boosts that could prove difficult to work around with your team. The two attacking moves I leave to you to decide.
  11. shiranai

    shiranai

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    Right now I'm testing an offensive Nidoqueen in this spot (thanks to you guys giving some ideas I got the courage to run the team again) and is doing quite well, even though I miss someone that can absorb sleep or could deal with Smeargle. I never really liked Sceptile, it always seemed to me that it missed some raw power; Scolipede suffers from the same problem, and with Swords Dance it wouldn't be able to hit hard as soon as it gets on the field, while acting as a suicide lead leaves me without a fast sweeper late game. Rotom-C have a nice typing, but TR teams already pack bulk hitters, and adding Rotom-C wouldn't be ideal, since many common scarfers can outspeed it.

    I appreciate your feedback! Your Sigilyph set attracted me more because of Whirlwind than for being a TR setupper, to be honest. I will consider this one since it can deal with the Scarfers by being able to set TR thanks to Sash and phaze some others that can give me some headaches.

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