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Hawaiian Air — An offense team by twash

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by twash, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. twash

    twash
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    Hawaiian Air


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Introduction

    Welcome to my RMT. I originally built this team for use in Smogon Tournament #8, but also used it in a few other tournaments. I am now extremely comfortable with this team and it has maintained a 90%+ win rate (100% in official tournaments) by beating several well known and successful players. Before I go any further, I would like to thank Giant Enemy Crab and Kevin Garrett for their respective help in the aesthetics and proofreading of this team. I hope you enjoy reading about my team.

    Hawaiian Air is designed to limit the opponent's opportunities to set up. Despite this aim being rather hard in Black and White, it is still a valid team base. You may notice that this follows through into the strength and coverage of the team. I should also point out that five of every six moves on this team is an attacking move, increasing coverage and limiting the opponent's options. The pace is very high, shown by the fact that five of my six Pokemon also have maximum Speed EVs, with four of those five Pokemon also having a Speed boosting nature. The team also has only one move that has less than perfect accuracy, which helps prevent "luck".

    On this team, I have two priority moves, two Explosion users, two users that abuse different types of weather, two U-turners, one trapper, and a Multiscale abuser. This gives me plenty of options, and means that I almost never have a totally disadvantageous matchup.


    In Depth

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Azelf @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Explosion
    - Ice Punch
    - U-turn

    Azelf is my Stealth Rock user, and also one of two Exploders. Explosion from 349 Attack is definitely no joke, especially when boosted by Life Orb. Ice Punch is mostly to help against Dragonite and the Latis, but it also turns Azelf into an efficient revenge killer against Virizion and non-Scarf Landorus. U-turn helps build momentum and lets Magnezone with an easy route to trap Steel-types, who often try to wall Azelf.

    Azelf can be played in several ways. It can be used sacrificially to get up Stealth Rock as soon as possible or alternatively it can be used as a quick pivot with U-turn. It is easy to feign a threatening move such as Psychic or Flamethrower with Azelf, which can force a switch and help me gain momentum. Azelf also has a very useful Ground-type immunity, which can help against Landorus.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Choice Band
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw

    Dragonite is mostly used to check powerful threats that could threaten me in the beginning of the match, where Multiscale almost guarantees that he will get a chance to attack. Against bulkier and slower teams, I will often save Dragonite so that I can fire off a few Outrages against a slightly weakened team, which can really put me in control of the battle. ExtremeSpeed is a great priority move that can finish off weakened Pokemon, and means that Dragonite is almost always worth saving, even if he has barely any HP. The upgrade to stage two priority is a further boost to ExtremeSpeed, beating Ice Shard to the punch. Earthquake is mostly for Heatran and Jirachi, whereas Dragon Claw is a useful scouting move if I don't want to lock myself into Outrage.

    Dragonite holds the only Choice item on the team. This is justifiable because Dragonite's Banded Outrage is generally strong enough to stop things from setting up. It is also important as it gives a big kick to ExtremeSpeed's power.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Magnezone @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Substitute
    - Charge Beam​

    Taking less than neutral damage from 13 of the 17 types makes Magnezone one mega pivot and also a fabulous check to several Choice users. Magnezone really is a great Pokemon, even without Magnet Pull. The ability to trap Steels is just an added bonus that makes this team click. Removing Skarmory allows my physical Ground-types to run riot, taking out Scizor reduces the risk of being revenge killed, and the fall of Ferrothorn will cause Kingdra weep with joy.

    Maximum Speed paired with Hidden Power Fire help Magnezone beat non-Jolly Scizor, which is important in case of a fast Swords Dance set. Jirachi needs just 16 Speed EVs to outspeed Magnezone and Body Slam, which doesn't happen frequently because defensive Jirachi tend to use nothing in terms of Speed. This allows Magnezone to Substitute and start using Charge Beam. The additional Speed is also handy when facing slow Rotom-W.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef)
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn
    - Explosion​

    Landorus's main use is to straight up power through things with his incredibly strong attacks. Landorus is my abuser should the opponent dare bring a Sand Streamer; few things like taking a Life Orb Earthquake, especially if they have boosted the attack by activating Sand Force. Hidden Power [Ice] helps destroy Gliscor (and weakened Dragonite), whereas U-turn helps to build the momentum and additionally provide a safe switch to Magnezone.

    Landorus is my second Exploder. Explosion is a fantastic fourth move because the alternatives of Stone Edge/Rock Slide are normally unused in my experiences. Explosion can be used to take out specific threats to allow a teammate to sweep. Alternatively, if I have a lead in the match I will often Explode both Landorus and Azelf in two turns, as this will often guarantee that the rest of my team can take out the rest of the opponent's Pokemon and win the game. I should point out that despite having Life Orb, Landorus can often feign Choice Scarf until it an attack actually hits, which is incredibly useful for forcing switches and luring in threats. I don't use a Choice item because it would allow too many opportunities for setup, whereas Expert Belt does not provide any potential boost to Explosion and is simply too weak.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Mamoswine @ Life Orb
    Trait: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Spear
    - Ice Shard
    - Superpower​

    Mamoswine's Earthquake can double up with Landorus's attacks to wear down bulky Waters to the point of a sweep. Earthquake is just a fantastic move, and having a priority Ice move alongside makes it the perfect combination. Icicle Spear is a stronger STAB Ice move for when I need it and can help break through any bulky Multiscale Dragonite. Superpower is for opposing Mamoswine and Ferrothorn. It also hits Rotom-W pretty hard, as well as being Mamoswine's best hope of denting Bronzong.

    Mamoswine is useful as it pairs up with so much of the team. As a second priority user, it can help pick off threats and can be used with Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed if necessary. Dragonite, Landorus, and Azelf can all help power through opposing Pokemon that may wall Mamoswine, and Magnezone will take out the ever annoying Skarmory. Finally, Mamoswine lures in Choiced Water and Fire moves, providing easy setup opportunities for Kingdra.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 152 HP / 140 Atk / 40 SDef / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Waterfall
    - Rest​

    Kingdra is unbelievably underrated. Kingdra gets a free double Speed boost against rain teams, which helps him to check tons of offensive Pokemon found on rain teams. I went for a bulkier set because I needed something to tank hits from Water-types, and Kingdra does the job well. Kingdra also has a rather important quad-resist to Fire moves.

    A Dragon Dancing Rest set allows Kingdra to abuse its STAB moves early game whilst sponging hits, and then go for a late game sweep once the opponent's team has been weakened. The EV spread is tailored towards this role, and the Speed EVs allow Kingdra to get the jump on bulky 52 Speed EVed Volcarona. I chose Chesto Berry over Lum Berry because I prefer to Rest off burns and poison damage. Paralysis can be a bit of a pain, but on a team with two Ground-types it is a risky strategy (plus Body Slam Jirachi is normally taken out by Magnezone). The confusion from Outrage is not an excuse to use Lum Berry either, as it never really gets in the way due to my hatred of locking Kingdra into it early game. If Kingdra is using Outrage late game, then it is probably ripping the last few Pokemon to shreds anyway.


    Conclusion

    All in all, this team has been successful for me. It tends to be of solid use against all types of weather, as different Pokemon can take advantage of whatever weather the opponent may decide to bring. I don't have a real abuser of sun and hail, but against these teams the key to victory normally lies with Mamoswine and Dragonite, as well as Exploding at a good time.

    The couple of problems include Shed Shell Skarmory and Cresselia, assuming the latter has support from Ninetales. Although Gengar and Terrakion look problematic, I tend to be fine against them because they don't get many opportunities to switch in safely. On top of this, I can normally force them out by feigning with Azelf or Landorus, and potentially pick up momentum so that the game is out of reach for the opponent by the time these Pokemon get the chance to switch back in.

    I have had great fun with this team, and the fast pace of it really makes it quite exciting to play with. Some of the Pokemon are quite unusual too, and it is always quite nice to run something slightly unique. I really do hope you enjoyed reading my RMT as much as I enjoyed making it.
  2. magic_leopard

    magic_leopard

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    As a quick suggestion as its late, can i recommend an expert belt landorus? This will retain most of Landorus's offensive edge whilst bluffing the oh so common scarf and get the jump on switch-ins who think that they're safe. If you do decide to do this, I would recommend putting stone edge or rock slide over a now weakened explosion simply to deal with either volcarona or gengar and get at least neutral damage on rotom-W who otherwise completely walls you.
    I have to say that this team looks balanced yet powerful, and still retains a strong vibe of personality. Very good team, and I am glad too see a lack of scizor/rotom core, which seems to be the go-to duo for offensive teams relying on momentum. Good job!
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Hey,

    This looks like a really cool team, and it's well presented! Just a few nitpicks and suggestions here. First, you could use Fire Punch > Dragon Claw on Dragonite. Though you may reject to the change at first, as you no longer would have the liberty to use a STAB move without drawbacks, I think the ability to beat Scizor quickly would benefit your team more. On Mamoswine, I really think you should go with Icicle Crash > Icicle Spear because it has more power, and you never know how many times Icicle Spear will hit. I'm not sure if Explosion is actually necessary on Landorus, since I've actually found use for Stone Edge plenty of times. I think you should try it out over Explosion on Landorus, and see if it makes a difference. Though you won't have a last second move to bust you out, I don't know if you'll object to being able to hit Volcarona. Volcarona can actually be a big problem at +2, and if the opponent has a Rapid Spin user, it could really hurt, so I really think that Stone Edge is necessary. Otherwise, I don't have much to say. Cool team, and good luck!
  4. KorKonT

    KorKonT

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    -Dragon Claw on Dragonite is rather counterproductive, because as it is a Choice Band set usually used for late-game cleanup, most of the time Outrage would be unnessesary. I would replace with Fire Punch.
    -As Icicle Crash is not reliable power, I would not recommend using it as mentioned above. Keep it as it is.
    -NEVER use explosion. As it suffered from a nerf in Generation V, it no longer has the power to reliably take out much of the metagame. Replace the moves with Psychic and Stone Edge, respectively.
  5. KorKonT

    KorKonT

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    I'm sorry, I didn't have my head screwed on correctly again. Forget what I said about Icicle Spear, I was confusing the two again.
    I honestly replaced Azelf's explosion within a second due to not thinking much(and the fact I wrote a 500+ character rate a few minutes ago). It's a bad idea to replace Explosion on Azelf, I am sorry
  6. Razza

    Razza

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    Tested out this team, its amazing at keeping up momentum and makes for fast games, i would give dragonite fire punch over dclaw to help out with shed shell skarmoury who walls this team.

    Terrakion and gengar are dangerous threats especially with stealth rock down. I would run zen headbutt on azelf for this reason as it takes out virizion too one of the reasons you were running ice punch. The latis cant really take an explosion or a uturn very well anyway and neither can dragonite who is susceptible to being revenged by mamoswine.
    If you dont like zen headbutts imperfect accuracy psyshock is a good alternative as i dont know how much damage psychic will be doing to terrakion in the sand but this makes azelf mixed.

    Pure offense, Love it.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Amazing team. Those kind of teams make me want to start playing OU again. Props for using Mamo, Azelf and Kingdra to great results. All these pokes are very good and underrated.

    I have 2 suggestions to make that may seem minor but will greatly help you. First of all definitely put Fire Punch over Dragon Claw so that you can kill Skarmory with something else except Magnezone. With Fire Punch Dragonite can 2hko Shed Shell Skarmory 100% of the time after SR, and more than 50% of the time without it.

    Finally put Icicle Crash on Mamoswine. With Icicle Crash, Mamoswine can 3hko Shed Shell Skarmory after SR, 100% of the time if you manage to flinch it with the second hit and ~50% of the time without SR (not accounting for Icicle Spear's accuracy). Icicle Spear is not needed anyway since Icicle Crash ohkoes Dragonite most of the time dealing 98,7% minimum to the most defensive Dragonite (252 HP) with MS active of 'course. And generally Icicle Crash a more reliable powerful STAB move for Mamo.

    With those 2 changes i think that your Shed Shell Skarmory problem will be easily solved.
  8. Mynism

    Mynism

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    This is the best team ive seen in weeks. Gratz for coming up with this ! About rating, I can see a Scarf Rotom-W weakness. It outspeeds and OHKO Azelf, is immune to Mamo and Lando EQ and revenge them, same for Dragonite if it carry HP Ice. Kindgra is the only mon able to take on him but can't give a solid answer in the short run and have to stay at full life for the late game part.

    Scarf/Band Terrakion is also a real problem, riping your team apart with SR up. You say it cant easily come in but a good player will manage to get him in more often than not and Terrakion resist U-turn.

    It might seem weird but maybe you should try running a Scarf Azelf set. It could revenge kill Terrakion (and a lot of other things since you lack a Scarfed mon), have an advantage against such Rotom-W and maybe Trick Skarmory taking the U-turns (shed shell ? Gliscor don't like taking Ice Punch and him and Heatran mean free kill for Landorus or Mamoswine) and Cresselia.

    Again, nice team !
  9. twash

    twash
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    The problem with Expert Belt Landorus is that it has no real advantages over my current set, and the additional raw power with Life Orb makes Landorus straight up more threatening. Feigning to primarily get kills on Gliscor and Dragonite is not so useful on this team: Azelf, Dragonite, Kingdra, Mamoswine, and Landorus can damage these heavily anyway. I actually ran Explosion because I was fed up of Stone Edge Landorus. The accuracy is piss poor and the move is just a liability. Explosion gives the team more options of play throughout the game, which I personally find of more use than a Rock move just to hit Volcarona (who to be honest the team has no real problem with). Thank you for the rate though!

    I tried Fire Punch originally for Ferrothorn and Scizor, but I didn't find it of much use. I will try it again though and see how it goes. Icicle Crash's accuracy is quite a turn off, but more importantly it is illegal with Superpower. Unfortunately, I cannot particularly drop Superpower because of how it weakens Rotom-W so nicely. As I said to magic_leopard above, generally the inaccurate Rock moves are pretty poor choices. Volcarona is never going to be taking on Life Orb Landorus anyway so it would be a bit of a waste; if Volcarona comes in on Landorus then I would just Explode or go to Dragonite (the opponent would have to be pretty desperate to use Volcarona against Landorus).

    Explosion's nerf did not make it into a bad move at all... it still takes out big threats such as Rotom-W, and taking out the correct Pokemon can make games a lot easier.

    Thanks, I hope you had fun playing with it! I will try out Fire Punch again and see if I get more use out of it in the long term. The whole Psychic move vs. Ice Punch is interesting because I really struggled with that moveslot when I built the team. I will probably try out Psyshock or Psychic and see how it goes, I definitely would struggle to cope with Zen Headbutt's accuracy. I mostly liked the ability to hit Dragonite hard and still managed to cope with Terrakion and Gengar, but it would make life easier against those two so it is definitely worth thinking about.

    @ Alexwolf: Thanks for the rate. I think I answered most of the points above. I will try out Fire Punch again, but not Icicle Crash as it is illegal with Superpower.

    Thank you for the compliments. Scarf Rotom-W can be a pain if it gets the chance to come in, and this is why I normally try to Superpower instead of Earthquake with Mamoswine on obvious switches or aim to take it out early with Dragonite. Luckily they tend not to spam Volt Switch quite so much, presumably due to my two Ground types. Terrakion doesn't "really" rip my team apart as much as it looks: I have three Fighting resists, a decent Rock resist, and a Multiscale user. Together I normally have options against Terrakion, although prediction often comes into play. Anyway, Scarf Azelf is an intriguing idea. Although I'm a little concerned it could allow for too much set up, I will try out some kind of Scarf Azelf and perhaps switch Stealth Rock onto Mamoswine. I dunno, I'll try something out with it because it sounds interesting.
  10. Mynism

    Mynism

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    Or just use A Scarftrick set with SR ! Tell me if it works out man :)
  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Scarf Alzelf = No rocks

    Don't do it.
  12. Motagua

    Motagua El Ciclón Azul

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    Very original team buddy! I also played UU and this team is one of the few teams that shows you dont really have to abuse OU pokemon to have great results. I do see Shed Shell Skarmory as a huge problem in your team. With a Shed Shell, Skarmory can easily escape Magnezone and continue to set up Spikes and counters hard your team considering all 6 pokemons are physical attackers. My initial suggestion would be to change Dragon Claw for Fire Punch. Fire Punch allows Dragonite to 2HKO SS Skarmory with SR in play and keeps him at bay.

    If you still think Fire Punch is not a good option, I would like to suggest a Special Attacker Kingdra instead of a Chesto Rest set.

    Kingdra (M) @Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    -Rain Dance
    -Hydro Pump
    -Draco Meteor
    -Dragon Pulse

    With 216 Speed EVs, Kingdra outspeeds Scarf Terrakion in rain and it isn´t walled by Skarmory, who will be KO´d by Hydro Pump. Draco Meteor will hit anything like a truck, that doesnt resist it or is a pink blob. To show you how powerful Kingdra is, Draco Meteor deals 62.4% - 73.5% to Jellicent, and at -2 Dragon Pulse deals, 20.3% - 24.0% giving you a high chance to 2HKO him after SR damage. 252 Sp.Atk EVs maximize his power grabbing a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs in Rain, and the rest is dumped in HP. Permanent rain from opposing Politoad just allows you to troll rain teams & considering that Magnezone & Mamoswine are weak to Fire, it will let them survive most un-Stabbed Fire Attacks.

    However, you can reduce the Speed EVs to 172, to outspeed Scarf Landorus and dump the rest in HP. If you are using this set, my 2nd suggestion would be changing Dragon Claw for Waterfall, considering that if Kingdra´s rain persists, Waterfall 2HKOs SS Skarmory after SR, and plus, it has a 20% chance to flinch.

    Hope this helps :]
  13. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    ^
    How are you going to keep that rain up in a tier filled with other weather?
    And as you will probably always try to set up rain, above scenario against Jelli is a bit unrealistic.

    The reason for my post is that, well, this is a solid team.
    When I rsaw that Shed Shell Skarm and Cressy in the Sun where the two only huge concerns (at least that I got from what I had read), I was even more impressed than I already was, especially seeing that those pokemon are rather rarely used (or item, in skarm's case). A well made team indeed, and I hope this gets archived.

    And just a nitpick (a lot of them I seem to have lately), I think you mean Azelf's very useful Ground immunity, not weakness.

    Once again, good job on making this team.
    Maybe in the future you can say this team helped you win OST 8...
  14. NahimC

    NahimC

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    This looks like an amazing team XD
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Thanks for sharing your team, twash! This team is an exemplar of the strategy of focusing on one specific wall and overloading it to provide the necessary break for the rest of your physical sweepers. Magnezone obviously helps with the wall destruction, but this team also uses the very underrated move Explosion to dispatch other problematic physical walls.

    The success of this team calls for little change; it's clear aggressive fast-paced playstyle compensates for covering threats, as most often-than-not your opponent is on the defensive. You also have strong priority to keep sweepers in check. However, Razza's rate is spot-on, especially his Azelf suggestion - now that your team is known, you can't bluff that possible Psychic to force Gengar / Terrakion out. Plus, those two are harder for your priority mons to dispatch than Dragons, so you're right in that you want a more definite way to check those two powerful threats.

    The only Pokemon that I can see resolving most of the problem in one is adding a SD Scizor. Its priority Bullet Punch provides it a mean to pick off Terrakion / Gengar, and Skarmory and Cresselia certainly wont enjoy taking a +2 Superpower and +2 U-turn, respectively.

    The problem is fitting Scizor in. I'd say it can possibly go over Landorus, since it lacks priority, does not have the most useful Speed tier, not a Sweeper, and lacks any distinctive resistances that are not covered by others. You do lose out on that significant LO Explosion to break walls, but Scizor can still scout with U-turn like Landorus, and the bug provides you more priority / sweeping capabilities - advantages that may offset the loss of your desert grenade? Scizor fares decently against Sand teams, too, imo. Although it seems like it may make your team more vulnerable to Volcarona, Scizor can avoid set-up opportunities by U-turning out. Scizor also takes a huge chunk out of offensive Volcarona with its boosted move, allowing DNite to finish it off. Gyarados may also be an issue, but nothing that an aggressive play can't overcome, similarly to Volcarona's case.

    SD Scizor (open)

    Scizor @ Metal Coat / Life Orb
    Adamant | 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD OR Jolly | 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
    Bullet Punch | U-turn | Swords Dance | Superpower

    Yea, I'm not suggesting the piss-weak specially bulky Scizor here. The Adamant variant has reliable bulk and oomph, but the Jolly variant prevents Scizor from being eliminated by non-Scarfed Magnezone, as well as getting a heads up on most bulky Rotom-W; Life Orb is definitely suggested on the Jolly one.


    Congrats to the team's success, twash!
  16. CAPS alt

    CAPS alt

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    Minor change but you have said Azelf has a Ground Type weakness when it is immune to it.
  17. Mynism

    Mynism

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    ?? Why shutting down my ideas using fake arguments ??

    Anyway, I do think Pocket's idea is really really good. I think it's better to replace Magnezone with Scizor, though. Because well played, it beat the same things it does.
  18. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Like Mynism said, why are you shutting down his idea? Scarf Azelf can actually Trick away his Scarf and use Rocks, in case you weren't aware.
  19. Clarion Valenheart

    Clarion Valenheart

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    Oh, no real hail abuser? There's Mamoswine abusing Hail, lol.

    Anyway, I can't rate fully due to some body clock problems. However, overall, it's a very solid and original team you made. No wonder how you made a lot of gimmicks out of that team, lol. :)
  20. CZ.

    CZ.

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    Great team I remember playing it against you in a haxy battle but still a good one, So time for my first rate I guess.

    Pocket's Idea is great, also with the mention that your team have a big weakness to Kyerum, with 5/6 pokemon being weak to the standard moves it runs, with Azelf also being OHKO'd by Blizzard, and with the sub set being on the rise could bring big problems to you team. Scizor will stop Kyerum well really well and will give you some help against those 2 4x weakness you have to Ice. LO Mamoswine is also a threat to your team, Kindgra is 2HKO'd after SR by a EQ/Icicle Crash and Ice Shard respectively, while Azelf is 2HKO'd by Ice Shard after SR. Scizor will also scare out this foe.

    Good luck with your team and it's nice seeing some new pokes being used effectively.
  21. DatCarl

    DatCarl

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    Great Team. The only thing is that you dont have a pokemon that can live something like a choice band/specs attack. Pokemon with boosted stats can live some hits and maybe get off an attack to kill of your non-bulk team. that is all i have to say.
  22. peng

    peng

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    474
    Its an offensive team; adding more defensive Pokemon to switch-in on those powerful attacks slows his team down way too much, and could give his opponent more set-up opportunities, which teams like this really don't want to do.

    This is obviously a great team, and certainly makes a change from the standard Volt-turn teams people tend to be using on ladder and posting in RMT. Like most offensive teams, your team seems a little weak to LO Starmie under Rain, since the only way you can really handle it is between Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed and Kingda's Outrage, which you generally won't want to be doing early game, especially if the Starmie is paired with Ferrothorn, which from experience, it is most of the time. Magnezone has a touch job switching-in on Ferro under rain since it gets really really badly weakened by Leech Seed + Protect variants. Sets with hazards also get at least SR and 2 layers of Spikes up, assuming Magnezone is switching-in on Ferrothorn rather than a double switch, and your team is already really quite hazard weak as it is. I know this is getting pretty circumstancial, and the way you handle offensive rain probably changes from battle to battle, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete. Probably the most obvious way I can suggest to help with this is to put Choice Scarf on Landorus, but you've already said how you don't like the set-up opportunities it gives, and seeing how threatening SD Lucario is to this team, I agree that giving it a chance to set-up on choiced Stone Edges or Hidden Power [Ice]s probably isn't a great idea.

    A somewhat gimmicky recommendation I'd like to see you try out is Magic Coat over Charge Beam on Magnezone. Ferrothorn will generally try and set-up Spikes vs Magnezone since attacking is p much futile, and using Magic Coat will put your opponent off attempting to set-up as much, and can also get you some free Spikes in the process, which helps out practically everything on your team. With good prediction you can end up having Stealth Rock and 2/3 layers of Spikes up, while your opponent has a dead Ferrothorn and often only Stealth Rock or a single layer of Spikes up. I've personally never seen the use for Charge Beam outside of helping you set-up on SDef Jirachi, who's usage seems to be declining quite a bit anyway. As you mentioned, Magnezone should already outspeed most defensive Jirachi variants and Substitute up, and from there can Hidden Power [Fire] to a range where you can switch into Mamoswine, Dragonite or Landorus on the predicted Wish. This is obviously much riskier, however, as all 3 really don't appreciate a Body Slam paralysis if you do call it wrong. Its really gimmicky, but for such a Stealth Rock and Spikes-weak team as this I definitely think its worth trying out.

    Another option would be to try out a Choice Scarf Magnezone. Scarf Magnezone isn't particularly common so can get some surprise KOs, but isn't as good at beating Leech Seed Ferrothorn as the standard Substitute sets. Choice Scarf Magnezone is one of the best Lucario revenge-killers in the game as well, resisting both ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch, and KOing with a little residual damage. Running Choice Scarf 'Zone will also prevent you from being massacred by Jolly SD Scizor, which I admit is really rare, but if you do come up against it, it can just run right through most of your team if Dragonite and Landorus are just a little be weakened by Stealth Rock and Life Orb respectively.

    I was going to mention some other things like trying Stealth Rock on Mamoswine, and then testing Xatu over Azelf. You seem to pretty much rely completely on Dragonite to beat Volcarona, and it also seems to be your best answer to loads of other Sun pokes, so having a way to keep Stealth Rock off the field would definitely help a lot against Sun.

    Wow this rate is absolutely huge. tl;dr:
    • Try Magic Coat Magnezone so that Ferrothorn doesn't get all its hazard up against you
    • Scarf Magnezone is also cool because it kills Starmie / SD Luke / Jolly SD Sciz / CB Terrak
    • Maybe try Xatu over Azelf to help keep rocks off the field, because you rely on Dragonite to beat loads of pokes, and it doesn't do its job as well with SR on the field


    As everyone else has already said, your team is excellent. Its difficult to suggest anything without opening up some major holes to other threats, but I'm sure most of the things people have highlighted already as threats (like Terrakion) can just be handled by the way you play the team (smart double switches etc).
  23. LighTz911

    LighTz911

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    233
    Ha ha, great team you got here! I honestly don't have much to say, but have you considered Return / Frustration over Superpower and Adamant nature on Mamoswine? Return lets you consistently damage Rotom-w while an Adamant nature boosts your priority Ice Shards. Also, I think that a Life Orb Hidden Power Ice KOs Gliscor regardless if you use a Jolly nature or not. So maybe you'd want to change Landorus's nature to Jolly? It lets you take on special attacks a bit easier and you never know. Not to mention, HP Ice doesn't KO a full HP Dragonite, further reducing the need of Naive. Lastly, how come you use max speed Magnezone? Is there a real purpose to it?

    Well, here are some suggestions I have. Probably not so useful, but there isn't much to be changed anyway!
  24. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    Thank you for the rate. As I said to a few other people, I will definitely try out Fire Punch again on Dragonite to help deal with Skarmory somewhat. I'm personally a little bit skeptical about changing Kingdra to an offensive rain version. The simple reason is that he will lose a lot of bulk, something which could be troublesome when I use him to sponge Water and Fire attacks. This skepticism is further increased due to the loss of Rest. I will try it out though, just to see how it runs.

    Hey Pocket, thanks for the rate. I will try out Psychic/Psyshock on Azelf, although it's essentially a preference thing of whether I want to hit Dragonite or Terrakion/Gengar harder (I was totally paranoid about covering Dragonite due to its popularity). Considering I have a lot of anti-Dragonite setup sets, I will give a Psychic move a try.

    I actually originally considered Scizor but decided against it because of the additional Fire weak at the point in team building when I considered it. I didn't think about it after that though, so I will give it a try. I definitely like the idea of triple priority.

    Thank you for the compliment. Technically I guess Mamoswine does abuse hail, but not in the same vein that Landorus and Kingdra abuse sand and rain respectively. The latter two use the weather offensive to wreak havoc and their abilities were huge influence of their placing on the team, whereas Mamoswine's was not so much.

    Thanks for the post. I do have a bit of a Sub Kyurem weak, but thankfully it is so unpopular that it doesn't matter so much. I guess Azelf and Landorus can check it if it doesn't have a Sub, but I get your point. IMO you are always going to be weak to some threats with an offensive teams, and you have to take a risk that those threats will be unpopular (which Kyurem kind of is). Pocket's above Scizor suggestion would help here to an extent, so I will keep an eye out for that.

    Thanks for the post. As PenguinX below you said, this team is simply not going to be able to shrug off these hits because of its nature. Luckily the fast pace means that they tend not to be able to come in. The scariest Choice users are definitely Terrakion and Latios, but normally I can subsequently take advantage of whatever move choice they make. It is very give and take against Choice users, so normally it just ends up about being sure you plan the end game well.

    Thank you very much for the in-depth and well thought out rate, I'm glad you clearly understood the nature of the team. Ferrothorn luckily isn't too much trouble because it can only come in on Azelf and Kingdra without losing a chunk of its health (and sometimes Dragonite, though it still takes a ton). Azelf has U-turn as well which doesn't make the problem so bad. I didn't even realise that Magnezone learnt Magic Coat, that's an incredibly interesting idea. I will definitely try that out over Charge Beam to see how it does, it sounds fun at worst.

    I'm not so keen on Choice Scarf Magnezone because of Choice users tending to be pretty lame, especially for an offensive team like this (I really don't want to invite strong Pokemon in for free). Plus I pretty much get screwed by Ferrothorn then, which is pretty huge. I just feel as though I'd lose more games by running Choice Scarf and giving free turns away, just to deal with the incredibly rare Jolly Life Orb Scizor. I guess it would help against Starmie as you mentioned, but Starmie really is not too much of a problem. Kingdra heavily messes up Starmie, and Dragonite can ExtremeSpeed as you know. If desperate, I can also take the Speed tie risk with Azelf.

    Finally, the Xatu thing is something I might try it out, although I'm a bit fearful of losing so much Speed and revenge killing potential if I drop Azelf (and the Explosion too!). Generally this team isn't too bad against sun, but it's worth trying.

    Thanks for the compliment. I don't like Adamant Mamoswine because I like to be able to outspeed Timid Heatran and Politoed, as well as Adamant Toxicroak. I also like to be able to beat opposing Adamant Mamoswine, one of the major reasons for Superpower. Return/Frustration could be used I suppose but generally when I use Superpower, I'm switching out the next turn (no way am I staying in on Rotom-A if it switches in on Superpower). I'm pretty sure the same would go for Return, and thus I don't particularly see the need for consistent damage. I run Naive on Landorus as it gives me a guaranteed kill on 252 HP Dragonite after Stealth Rock, whereas Jolly does not. I run maximum Speed on Magnezone to outspeed all non-Jolly Scizor, which also allows me to Substitute on Jirachi which are lacking Speed EVs. It also helps against slow Rotom-W. On top of this, running HP is pretty futile on Magnezone as it struggles to survive many hits and tends to run off its resistances, something it can manage with zero defensive EVs.
  25. LUST

    LUST
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    Hey

    Solid team man. As others already pointed out you have a glaring fighting weakness. Landorus and Dragonite does a decent job absorbing Fighting-Type moves but with some predictions, your opponent can easily take them out early in the game. With hazards and possible sandstorm or hail damage both of them can be easily wear down. In my opinion Landorus isn't the right teammate for this team, it's only beneficial under sandstorm and since you're running a LO variant, it's survivability becomes a major issue. It also fails to bluff a choice item which lets your opponent predict accordingly. This Landorus performs decently under other weathers but then again it fails to counter big threats to this team such as Conkeldurr, Terrakion. I would recommend replacing Landorus for a Trick Room Reuniclus. Reuniclus's low Speed and excellent Special Attack make it a natural candidate for a Trick Room sweeper. Magic Guard further adds to Reuniclus's potent sweeping capabilities, as it is not affected by residual damage, including Life Orb recoil, sandstorm, and entry hazards. Reuniclus eliminates your fighting weakness and also gives you insurance against statuses. It decimates Terrakion and Conkeldurr, lures in Scizor for your Magnezone, Mamoswine can securely shut down Tyranitar and clear path for Reuniclus to sweep efficiently. With a Quiet nature and an IV of 0, Reuniclus reaches a Speed stat of 58, allowing it to outpace every common Pokemon after it sets up Trick Room. The three listed attacks provide Reuniclus with perfect coverage, and they each have a solid Base Power to take advantage of Reuniclus's great Special Attack. Psychic is still a very solid STAB that hits anything that doesn't resist it very hard thanks to Life Orb and the investment in Special Attack. Psyshock is an option to 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock and hit Jellicent harder. Focus Blast and Shadow Ball are excellent auxiliary attacks for Reuniclus, nailing the Dark and Psychic types, respectively, that resist Psychic. Trick Room Reuniclus has little to fear from Tyranitar, as Focus Blast OHKOes all versions. Although Shadow Ball is necessary to hit the likes of Latios, Latias, and Mew super effectively. Reuniclus will help you stand a chance against strong fighting-type mons and be an excellent overall teammate for your team. It causes so many switch-ins and with some prediction it can be very deadly and should not be under-estimated. Reuniclus also becomes your secondary Sun check as it's able to sweep after one trick room. It also opens up opportunities for Kingdra to be more effective with the given bulk.

    Trick Room Reuniclus (open)
    Reuniclus (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 192 HP / 64 Def / 252 SpA | 0 Spe
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast

    For some other minor changes, Dragon Claw should be replaced by Fire Punch on Dragonite as it benefits for your sweepers. Fire Punch destroys Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory who could be a pain to face. Overall, brilliant team man!

    Choice Band Dragonite (open)
    Dragonite (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch

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