Pokémon Hawlucha

[Cornonjacob]

Also, Zard Y needs like 2-3 other teammates for support to function optimally (a Pursuit Trapper, a Defogger/Spinner, and maybe Hippowdon to reset weather and deal with some of its checks). Magnezone might be a better answer for Scizor and even Clefable with Magnet Pull and Steel-STAB, respectively.

Magnezone also takes care of Skarmory, the bane of physical sweepers everywhere. It also provides you with a somewhat slow brutal Volt Switch giving you the chance to chess with your opponent and possibly get a safe switch into Hawlucha, ready for setup.
Magnezone is also a good wallbreaker in general, there isn't much it can't fry with max modest Choice Specs stab moves. It's also got decent bulk and its typing allows it to come in on Latios and Azumarill, who just barely fails to score a 2HKO with Waterfall without Choice Band and is promptly toasted by an electric type attack.

 

[Jin White]

The way you'e talking about Hawlucha, you're making it seem like it only has one viable set. Unburden seems like its best ability on paper, but its fast enough to not need that boost to sweep late game, especially since things have been shifting towards more of a priority-driven metagame. That means it can utilize one of its other abilities like Limber. Because of that, Hawlucha doesn't need to worry about any Prankster T-waves. Priority users are what stands in the way of Hawlucha, and the only one that OHKO's is Talonflame. However, Talonflame gets mauled by Stone Edge, so does Thundurus, and Gyarados takes a decent chunk and has a difficult time deciding whether to Mega evolve or stay in base form. Not only that, Gyara gets 2HKO'd after SR. Yea Ferrothon might have protect but that'll be figured out during the game and can be used to the advantage of the Hawlucha player and might be able to snag another SD. Klefki isn't a counter whatsoever lol. Limber prevents paralysis and if it only runs Foul Play then it can't do much damage at all. If Mawile already Mega evolved, than it gets 2HKO'd by HJK.

The only thing that has changed my opinion is the Mega Scizor mention. That only adds to the fact Char-Y would be able to handle the things Hawlucha needs out of its way to do its job. I will also admit a lot of situations are dependent on who needs to switch in and who is already in. Obviously both of us are going to bring up situations that best support our arguments, but in the end Hawlucha does have a couple tricks up its sleeves to get by most of the things you mentioned.

252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 302-356 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's very sexy. Have been spending time looking for valuable members on a rain team that check rain offense's biggest problems: Ferrothorn, M-Venusaur, and Thundurus. This guy has the potential to do all of that. Question though: what Flying STAB should he opt for on a Limber set?

 

[Karxrida]

252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 302-356 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's very sexy. Have been spending time looking for valuable members on a rain team that check rain offense's biggest problems: Ferrothorn, M-Venusaur, and Thundurus. This guy has the potential to do all of that. Question though: what Flying STAB should he opt for on a Limber set?

Running LO means you can't use Acrobatics and are stuck with Aerial Ace or Fly as your Flying STAB.

 

[G-Von]

252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 302-356 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's very sexy. Have been spending time looking for valuable members on a rain team that check rain offense's biggest problems: Ferrothorn, M-Venusaur, and Thundurus. This guy has the potential to do all of that. Question though: what Flying STAB should he opt for on a Limber set?

Running LO means you can't use Acrobatics and are stuck with Aerial Ace or Fly as your Flying STAB.

Karxrida has a point; that's why I run no item on my Hawlucha.

252 Atk Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 232-274 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

If you know how to keep SR on their side of the field than no item should work just fine for you.

 

[Der Richter]

Karxrida has a point; that's why I run no item on my Hawlucha.

252 Atk Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 232-274 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

If you know how to keep SR on their side of the field than no item should work just fine for you.

No item at all? Wouldn't be better have a consumable like a berry or focus sash? I can't use properly Acrobatics from the beginning, but no item at all imo isn't worth it.

 

[G-Von]

No item at all? Wouldn't be better have a consumable like a berry or focus sash? I can't use properly Acrobatics from the beginning, but no item at all imo isn't worth it.

Then you risk not being able to use your item at all throughout the match and always having a weak Acrobatics.

 

[Der Richter]

Then you risk not being able to use your item at all throughout the match and always having a weak Acrobatics.

That's why the only set currently avaiable is the Sky Attack one. The option you're suggesting basically makes you play without item and ability, which is insane; at this point just use another mon.

 

[Jaguar360]

That's why the only set currently avaiable is the Sky Attack one. The option you're suggesting basically makes you play without item and ability, which is insane; at this point just use another mon.

You could always go for Red Card or Sitrus Berry, though those aren't quite as consistent since you need to get hit (though you could also run Bulk Up over Swords Dance to help).

 

[G-Von]

That's why the only set currently avaiable is the Sky Attack one. The option you're suggesting basically makes you play without item and ability, which is insane; at this point just use another mon.

ughhhh...*cracks knuckles and neck* here we go....

First off, Hawlucha obviously has more than one set available, it just so happens that there's only one set on its analysis. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is the only set worth using in OU. His dual STAB's have great coverage and only a handful of pokemon actually resist them and then there are only another handful of physically bulky enough pokemon who are naturally able to take his STAB moves. It sadly doesn't have Brave Bird, but Acrobatics works just fine when Hawlucha is freed from his item. HJK hits its opponents hard as hell and only has to worry about ghosts switching in. Obviously that is a huge risk due to the buff ghosts received this gen but it can easily be predicted when that will happen. A couple pokemon that are pretty common that resist Hawlucha's STAB's are Thundurus and Zapdos. Thankfully for Hawlucha, it gets Stone Edge to hurt both of these pokemon hard. Thundy is OHKO'd after SR and max/max Zapdos is OHKO'd at +2 75% of the time after SR. Hawlucha is completely screwed against Aegislash but it can be whittled down through switching in a ton since it is relied upon to check a ton of shit.

I have also noticed a striking similarity between Aegislash and Hawlucha: neither one of them were being used to their fullest potential when they were first put to the test. People have since started using many more sets for Aegislash, but people have written off Hawlucha as unviable in OU. For whatever reason, people thought Unburden was the ability that should be used to maximize Hawlucha's use, but I don't think that's the right choice in a priority-filled metagame that we have here today. That and of course Flying Gem isn't out right now. Mold Breaker is a great ability but Hawlucha doesn't really have much to abuse it with. Now, it comes down to Limber. Hawlucha now can no longer be paralyzed by any wall trying to T-wave or Thundy trying to Prankster T-wave. This is huge since many Thundurus users will most likely opt to T-Wave a Hawlucha knowing it will not be able to do anything to it. Some might actually try to straight up attack since it might think Hawlucha is Adamant, when in fact it should be running Jolly strictly because of Thundurus.

Finally, lets get into more detail regarding Hawlucha's STAB moves. Most pokemon that opt for the fighting and flying attacks have to deal with things such as low accuracy and/or stat drops, however that is not the case when dealing with Lucha Libre. Acro has 100% accuracy, while HJK has a solid 90% accuracy. Very little is worried about when using either move: Acrobatics is completely risk free, while you just have to be careful a ghost type doesn't switch in on a HJK and the unfortunate 10% chance of naturally missing. Not only that but these moves also pack a punch since they have a high base power. This helps alleviate Hawlucha's mediocre attack stat. Regarding it's STAB's, it is also only 1 of 3 offensive flying types that are neutral to SR and the only one able to use both of its STAB moves without any type of problems or 4MSS.

tl;dr-Hawlucha has an offensive niche that I personally believe can be put to work with a SD+3 attack Limber set. Don't knock it till you try it. Hawlucha may not be the best fighting type or flying type, but it can do harm to many teams since its STAB's are two of the best attacking types in the game.

Edit @ Karxrida: Jolly so that it can actually outspeed Thundurus. Offensive pokemon are always going to check Hawlucha; it's frail as fuck. You don't see Greninja switching into everything, do you? It seems to be doing just fine with nearly the same bulk as Hawlucha. (obviously for different reasons but regardless Greninja is checked by a ton of offensive pokemon)

 

[Karxrida]

ughhhh...*cracks knuckles and neck* here we go....

First off, Hawlucha obviously has more than one set available, it just so happens that there's only one set on its analysis. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is the only set worth using in OU. His dual STAB's have great coverage and only a handful of pokemon actually resist them and then there are only another handful of physically bulky enough pokemon who are naturally able to take his STAB moves. It sadly doesn't have Brave Bird, but Acrobatics works just fine when Hawlucha is freed from his item. HJK hits its opponents hard as hell and only has to worry about ghosts switching in. Obviously that is a huge risk due to the buff ghosts received this gen but it can easily be predicted when that will happen. A couple pokemon that are pretty common that resist Hawlucha's STAB's are Thundurus and Zapdos. Thankfully for Hawlucha, it gets Stone Edge to hurt both of these pokemon hard. Thundy is OHKO'd after SR and max/max Zapdos is OHKO'd at +2 75% of the time after SR. Hawlucha is completely screwed against Aegislash but it can be whittled down through switching in a ton since it is relied upon to check a ton of shit.

I have also noticed a striking similarity between Aegislash and Hawlucha: neither one of them were being used to their fullest potential when they were first put to the test. People have since started using many more sets for Aegislash, but people have written off Hawlucha as unviable in OU. For whatever reason, people thought Unburden was the ability that should be used to maximize Hawlucha's use, but I don't think that's the right choice in a priority-filled metagame that we have here today. That and of course Flying Gem isn't out right now. Mold Breaker is a great ability but Hawlucha doesn't really have much to abuse it with. Now, it comes down to Limber. Hawlucha now can no longer be paralyzed by any wall trying to T-wave or Thundy trying to Prankster T-wave. This is huge since many Thundurus users will most likely opt to T-Wave a Hawlucha knowing it will not be able to do anything to it. Some might actually try to straight up attack since it might think Hawlucha is Adamant, when in fact it should be running Jolly strictly because of Thundurus.

Finally, lets get into more detail regarding Hawlucha's STAB moves. Most pokemon that opt for the fighting and flying attacks have to deal with things such as low accuracy and/or stat drops, however that is not the case when dealing with Lucha Libre. Acro has 100% accuracy, while HJK has a solid 90% accuracy. Very little is worried about when using either move: Acrobatics is completely risk free, while you just have to be careful a ghost type doesn't switch in on a HJK and the unfortunate 10% chance of naturally missing. Not only that but these moves also pack a punch since they have a high base power. This helps alleviate Hawlucha's mediocre attack stat. Regarding it's STAB's, it is also only 1 of 3 offensive flying types that are neutral to SR and the only one able to use both of its STAB moves without any type of problems or 4MSS.

tl;dr-Hawlucha has an offensive niche that I personally believe can be put to work with a SD+3 attack Limber set. Don't knock it till you try it. Hawlucha may not be the best fighting type or flying type, but it can do harm to many teams since its STAB's are two of the best attacking types in the game.

You running Jolly or Adamant for that set?

Cause a whole lot more offensive shit checks you if you're Adamant Limber just so you can deal with 1 fucking counter that you can't even kill without SR up.

 

[Der Richter]

ughhhh...*cracks knuckles and neck* here we go....

I'll just say that I've actually used Hawlucha on Showdown, and even breeded one to use in ORSA. So I'm well acquainted with his flaws and pros. Isn't Mold Breaker still unreleased? And yes, till the gems get a release, the only set truly viable withouth crazy stuff like not having item nor ability in use is the Sky Attack one. Yeah, he's got a niche, but if you don't exploit his only true viable set (which is quite decent imo, but severly hinders your coverage options), then just use something else. It's not like OU lacks strong and fast attackers, so why rely on such gimmicks?

The comparison to Aegislash and Greninja makes absolutely no sense. There are good reasons why they're extremely used, especially two abilities that actually help them, instead of strongly limit your options.

 

[G-Von]

I'll just say that I've actually used Hawlucha on Showdown, and even breeded one to use in ORSA. So I'm well acquainted with his flaws and pros. Isn't Mold Breaker still unreleased? And yes, till the gems get a release, the only set truly viable withouth crazy stuff like not having item nor ability in use is the Sky Attack one. Yeah, he's got a niche, but if you don't exploit his only true viable set (which is quite decent imo, but severly hinders your coverage options), then just use something else. It's not like OU lacks strong and fast attackers, so why rely on such gimmicks?

The comparison to Aegislash and Greninja makes absolutely no sense. There are good reasons why they're extremely used, especially two abilities that actually help them, instead of strongly limit your options.

You say you've used Hawlucha on PS! and have one ready to be transferred to ORAS when the games come out, yet make no mention of the set I posted about since you've probably never used Limber Hawlucha. I don't get why you bad mouth the use of Limber and refer to it as if Hawlucha doesn't even have an ability, but it definitely serves a purpose. Also, almost everytime a pokemon benefits from holding an item, but Hawlucha is one of the few exceptions since it doesn't have access to Brave Bird and relies on Acrobatics. It takes less from Knock Off, which it resists, and will always have a 110 base power STAB move so I wouldn't call it "crazy stuff". Unburden is an incredibly overrated ability due to the abundance of priority moves this generation and the fact Unburden can only be used once you lose your item and the speed boost from it is not Baton Pass-able. BTW, Mold Breaker is available.

 

[Der Richter]

You say you've used Hawlucha on PS! and have one ready to be transferred to ORAS when the games come out, yet make no mention of the set I posted about since you've probably never used Limber Hawlucha. I don't get why you bad mouth the use of Limber and refer to it as if Hawlucha doesn't even have an ability, but it definitely serves a purpose. Also, almost everytime a pokemon benefits from holding an item, but Hawlucha is one of the few exceptions since it doesn't have access to Brave Bird and relies on Acrobatics. It takes less from Knock Off, which it resists, and will always have a 110 base power STAB move so I wouldn't call it "crazy stuff". Unburden is an incredibly overrated ability due to the abundance of priority moves this generation and the fact Unburden can only be used once you lose your item and the speed boost from it is not Baton Pass-able. BTW, Mold Breaker is available.

Ok, sorry, maybe I missed a line, but I thought we were talking about Unburden.

 

[G-Von]

Ok, sorry, maybe I missed a line, but I thought we were talking about Unburden.

If you read my previous posts you would know I haven't been referencing Unburden at all and I have been talking about a Jolly SD+3 attack Limber set.

 

[Karxrida]

If you read my previous posts you would know I haven't been referencing Unburden at all and I have been talking about a Jolly SD+3 attack Limber set.

Oh, you're talking about Jolly! You're fucking weak if you're Jolly, stuff like Gyarados become counters, AND fucking set up in front of you.

 

[Jin White]

G-Von I've been trying Limber Hawlucha since you mentioned it, especially as a check to top threats for rain teams. LO Limber is pretty fkin cool and underrated, and you can afford to run Jolly because the power isn't bad as is: namely, that OHKO on Thundurus even without rocks is just awesome. More than that, though, the LO gives you a superpowered HJK. Fly is sub-par sure but it hits harder w/ LO than itemless Acrobatics, and there are few 'mons not named Aegislash that want to switch in on Fly & can afford to take an HJK next turn.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 182-216 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 408-481 (119.6 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some counter, buddy! Karxrida

I know replays don't have real merit until they're about 1800+ so I'll see if I can't gather some higher-ranked replays, but until then, watch this LO Hawlucha in action:
vs. trick room: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-146559400
in which i flounder around until turn 26, after which hawlucha saves my ass: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-147372713

LO SD + HJK + Fly + Stone Edge is perfect coverage & it's not quite so hard to set up as we're being led to believe. Fly actually makes an alright scout for protect 'mons, and protect 'mons make for alright SD fodder. It's niche, and it's not easy to use, but I'm liking this unique coverage & speed for the threats I specifically need it to deal with (Thundy + Ferro + M-Venusaur all at once).

EDIT: Aegi's just been banned making Flying + Fighting + Rock coverage that much more viable

 

[Scherzo.]

Now that Aegislash is gone, will Hawlucha see a bigger impact?

 

[Karxrida]

G-Von I've been trying Limber Hawlucha since you mentioned it, especially as a check to top threats for rain teams. LO Limber is pretty fkin cool and underrated, and you can afford to run Jolly because the power isn't bad as is: namely, that OHKO on Thundurus even without rocks is just awesome. More than that, though, the LO gives you a superpowered HJK. Fly is sub-par sure but it hits harder w/ LO than itemless Acrobatics, and there are few 'mons not named Aegislash that want to switch in on Fly & can afford to take an HJK next turn.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 182-216 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 408-481 (119.6 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some counter, buddy! Karxrida

I know replays don't have real merit until they're about 1800+ so I'll see if I can't gather some higher-ranked replays, but until then, watch this LO Hawlucha in action:
vs. trick room: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-146559400
in which i flounder around until turn 26, after which hawlucha saves my ass: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-147372713

LO SD + HJK + Fly + Stone Edge is perfect coverage & it's not quite so hard to set up as we're being led to believe. Fly actually makes an alright scout for protect 'mons, and protect 'mons make for alright SD fodder. It's niche, and it's not easy to use, but I'm liking this unique coverage & speed for the threats I specifically need it to deal with (Thundy + Ferro + M-Venusaur all at once).

EDIT: Aegi's just been banned making Flying + Fighting + Rock coverage that much more viable

Gyarados is still a counter since it switches in the turn you set up so it's not going to be taking a +1 Stone Edge. I'll post more in-depth when I'm not on a phone.

 

[Tressed]

Gyarados is still a counter since it switches in the turn you set up so it's not going to be taking a +1 Stone Edge. I'll post more in-depth when I'm not on a phone.

Er

Vs Bulky DDdos
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 179-213 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs Offensive
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 182-216 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm not seeing how you're dodging the 2HKO here unless you opt to go fully defensive or Scarf, and Scarf maxes out at around 75%, which means that Hawlucha still has a good shot at killing you anyways (disregarding external stuff).

 

[Karxrida]

Er

Vs Bulky DDdos
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 179-213 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs Offensive
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 182-216 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm not seeing how you're dodging the 2HKO here unless you opt to go fully defensive or Scarf, and Scarf maxes out at around 75%, which means that Hawlucha still has a good shot at killing you anyways (disregarding external stuff).

Gyarados switches in as Hawlucha sets up.
Gyarados Dragon Dances the next turn without getting KO'd.
Is it really that hard to understand?

 

[Salemance]

Gyarados switches in as Hawlucha sets up.
Gyarados Dragon Dances the next turn without getting KO'd.
Is it really that hard to understand?

I think the thing he is confused on is how Gyara is living a +1 Stone Edge if a -1 is still a 2HKO. Unless you are talking bout Mega Dos, which he could try and predict with a HJK, but to risk him activating unburden is a risky proposition to say the least. As he could just attempt to predict the switch and hit you on both turns instead of boosting.

 

[Jin White]

Gyarados switches in as Hawlucha sets up.
Gyarados Dragon Dances the next turn without getting KO'd.
Is it really that hard to understand?

loool this is dumb convo but

do you even know what a counter is ?_?

btw if gyara switches in "as hawlucha sets up" hawlucha is now at +1 after the intimidate drop. this means gyarados gets OHKO'd by stone edge if he doesn't/can't megavolve, potentially OHKO'd by HJK if he does; either way gyara lost 50-70% if hawlucha predicted wrong, OHKO'd if hawlucha predicted correctly. he's sure as fk not switching in with impunity multiple times which is what a counter does.

 

[Halcyon.]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-811548

Posting this here as well for the hell of it. Been using this team since the beginning of the suspect and I actually kind of like Hawlucha a lot. When I put more thought into a good team with it I'm sure it'll perform even better. Yet another example of a Pokemon that I hate design wise but works fantastically. Sort of like SF Conk last gen.

 

[Tressed]

Gyarados switches in as Hawlucha sets up.
Gyarados Dragon Dances the next turn without getting KO'd.
Is it really that hard to understand?

FTFY
Gyarados switches in as Hawlucha sets up.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 406-478 (115 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 406-478 (122.6 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you're going to get snarky, make sure you do your math first. Is it so hard to not be an ass AND wrong?

 

[Karxrida]

FTFY
Gyarados switches in as Hawlucha sets up.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 406-478 (115 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 406-478 (122.6 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you're going to get snarky, make sure you do your math first. Is it so hard to not be an ass AND wrong?

You still have to play the "will it Mega?" guessing game. LO wasn't in my calcs because its a shit item for Hawlucha and not part of the discussion until Jim brought it up.