Haxmons (Playable on Aqua)

The accuracy stuff is still confusing and inconsistent: why should Wide Lens or (If I understand this correctly) Victory Star save V-Create but Hone Claws will never allow Aerodactyl to use its Rock STAB as better than Smack Down? It's bizarre and I don't see what logic there is to it. If no amount of accuracy boost of any kind did anything, fine whatever. Or if any accuracy boost bring a move to over 100 Accuracy would cause it to not miss, cool. But why are stat-ups alone exempt from fixing accuracy problems?
 
The accuracy stuff is still confusing and inconsistent: why should Wide Lens or (If I understand this correctly) Victory Star save V-Create but Hone Claws will never allow Aerodactyl to use its Rock STAB as better than Smack Down? It's bizarre and I don't see what logic there is to it. If no amount of accuracy boost of any kind did anything, fine whatever. Or if any accuracy boost bring a move to over 100 Accuracy would cause it to not miss, cool. But why are stat-ups alone exempt from fixing accuracy problems?
because the game checks the base accuracy first (which abilities, wide lens, etc. directly effect) and stat boosts second. If it finds that a move does not have 100% accuracy than it will set it to miss before it even checks it's boosts. I could be wrong tho
 
I've been laddering for a while now, and I've discovered a surprisingly effective set. Special Crobat. Wait don't leave yet! Here's the set:

I'm Special (Crobat) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ominous Wind
- Air Slash
- Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain
- Quick Attack

This set puts all of the best tricks in the meta, and puts them all in one package. (Well maybe not all of them, but quite a few.) It's immune to flinching, so it can easily sweep, it can raise all of it's stats with a reliable coverage move, and can flinchax everything that isn't an Inner Focus pokemon with Air Slash thanks to Wide Lens. Sludge Bomb can drain the foe's HP slowly, or it can Heal itself with Giga Drain, another good coverage move. I prefer Giga Drain, but Sludge Bomb is good too.

I've also found Scarf Sniper Kingdra with waterfall to be a Royal Annoyance. (pun intended) It can hit like a truck, and has some reasonable bulk and speed as well. Another thing I've found to be annoying is Thunderus. Prankster Thunderwave is deviating, and it can deal some good damage as well, making it a huge threat.
 
And not a single complaint about Lapras was given that day.

Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Mild
- Ancient Power
- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard
- Iron Head

Shell Armor and high HP make the defense top notch. Set up Ancient Power after a Whimsicott Tailwind. Freeze a mon and then set up Ancient Power. Ice Shard past the Flinch Hax. Flinch hax with Iron head after Ancient Power. There's practically 1 counter to it and that is Close Combat/Superpower. Set it up right and you have the perfect sweeper.
 
And not a single complaint about Lapras was given that day.

Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Mild
- Ancient Power
- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard
- Iron Head

Shell Armor and high HP make the defense top notch. Set up Ancient Power after a Whimsicott Tailwind. Freeze a mon and then set up Ancient Power. Ice Shard past the Flinch Hax. Flinch hax with Iron head after Ancient Power. There's practically 1 counter to it and that is Close Combat/Superpower. Set it up right and you have the perfect sweeper.
I can say from experience that this thing is insanely OP.
 
I've been laddering for a while now, and I've discovered a surprisingly effective set. Special Crobat. Wait don't leave yet! Here's the set:

I'm Special (Crobat) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ominous Wind
- Air Slash
- Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain
- Quick Attack

This set puts all of the best tricks in the meta, and puts them all in one package. (Well maybe not all of them, but quite a few.) It's immune to flinching, so it can easily sweep, it can raise all of it's stats with a reliable coverage move, and can flinchax everything that isn't an Inner Focus pokemon with Air Slash thanks to Wide Lens. Sludge Bomb can drain the foe's HP slowly, or it can Heal itself with Giga Drain, another good coverage move. I prefer Giga Drain, but Sludge Bomb is good too.

I've also found Scarf Sniper Kingdra with waterfall to be a Royal Annoyance. (pun intended) It can hit like a truck, and has some reasonable bulk and speed as well. Another thing I've found to be annoying is Thunderus. Prankster Thunderwave is deviating, and it can deal some good damage as well, making it a huge threat.
The set i run is:
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SPE / 4 (any other stat that you want tbh)
Naive Nature
- Roost
- Bite
- Ominous Wind
- Poison Fang

Not much to say here, can toxic with poison fang, flinches with bite, heals up with roost and boosts with ominous wind, you can combine flinching and toxic together to whittle down a pokemon faster or you could just leave the pokemon receiving toxic damage and while that set up ominous wind.
 
This meta is cancer with Skuntank (and to a lesser extent Muk). You absolutely have to have Inner Focus (or your own Skuntank) to stop it, but if your opponent predicts well, he'll just cripple your Lucario or Dragonite switch in with Flamethrower. It has Sucker Punch and Crunch for Ghosts, so they can't really beat it either. Banning Skuntank / Stench makes this meta a little less stupid (but it will probably still be cancer anyway).
 
Banning Skuntank / Stench makes this meta a little less stupid (but it will probably still be cancer anyway).
Please, stop sugar coating, tell us how you really feel.

But seriously, Skuntank is way too powerful. The closest things there are to Skuntank "counters" are Lum Berry Dragonite and Special Crobat, both of which can be crippled or KO'd by the thing they are supposed to counter.
 
The set i run is:
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SPE / 4 (any other stat that you want tbh)
Naive Nature
- Roost
- Bite
- Ominous Wind
- Poison Fang

Not much to say here, can toxic with poison fang, flinches with bite, heals up with roost and boosts with ominous wind, you can combine flinching and toxic together to whittle down a pokemon faster or you could just leave the pokemon receiving toxic damage and while that set up ominous wind.
Why bite instead of dark pulse? Dark pulse has more power, although I think Crobat's attack is higher.
The crobat I've been running is
Crobat @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 SPE/ 252 SPA/ 4 ATT
-Roost
-Brave Bird
-Giga Drain
-Dark Pulse
I forget the nature, but it seemed to work well, although it was mostly a suicide machine.
 
I'm #1 on the ladder without Skuntank or Inner Focus, saying it is "required" is ridiculous. It is definitely a top mon, possibly the top mon, but there are ways to deal with it. I'll share some of the ways from my team:
Fake Out Ambipom hits it hard and will usually force it to flee (which will often let you punish the switchin accordingly with Thunderpunch or Pursuit a low health Skuntank). Feint is so weak that Ambipom can switch in plenty as long as it comes in on a Feint or Sucker Punch (this is not that hard if you aren't too obvious, and if they get overzealous trying to catch your Ambipom it is GG for their skunk).
Gengar and Froslass are both immune feint, outpriority sucker punch with SP/Ice Shard, and flinch or freeze Skuntank that tries to crunch. There is some prediction here, but I would give the advantage to the ghost types especially if sashed so they can take sucker punchs and reciprocate with a freeze.
Depending on Skuntank's EVs Mega Scizor can completely stall out feint, taking around 3%. If it catches a Silver Wind boost (this isn't hard at all) before or while Skuntank comes in it can also outspeed slower skunks with a Feint of its own (this actually ends up being a great move on Scizor), or BP if Skuntank wants to switch moves. If Scizor isn't mega it can probably run leftovers and be untouchable by Feint, or Rocky Helmet just to be cruel.
I've been able to take out Skuntanks by simply staying in on them. As people say, a skunk will often try to predict the switchin to a ghost or scizor or inner focus mon, so consider just staying in and firing off another attack. As long as you have a Skuntank counter alive it doesn't actually have to come in to force him away from feint, and one freeze is all you need from the likes of Greninja or Lapras. Some thought, mindgames, and switching around really can work wonders considering feint has such a low offensive presence.
I may not, but 90% of teams run Lucarios and Dragonites anyways, which are solid pokemon that as far as I know will beat Skuntank 1 on 1. Again, see what I said about Ambipom - feint has such a low offensive presence that you can afford to take a few just to make your switch in more unpredictable.
There are surely plenty more ways. Feint Sharpedo is one idea I had that should be able to lay some solid hits on Skuntank, and speed boosted bite and aqua jet make sure Sharpedo can actually put in work against other teams. There is no doubt Skuntank is good and there is no doubt it can beat a lot of pokemon. But I designed my team before Skuntank started appearing and it still does fine against it (only change was adding Feint to Scizor). It isn't some threat that will require you to use otherwise unviable things just to fight it, or that only has a select counter. I don't even think I've seen a team that didn't run at least one of: Dragonite, Lucario, Gengar, Skuntank.

Edit: I'm not even sure what I'm more afraid of, Skuntank or bulky Lapras with AP/Rest/Ice Shard/Iron Head or Ice Beam. My team isn't as hard-hitting as a lot of other teams I see but Lapras is just an amazing wall.
 
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The speed creep in this meta drove me to use Jolly Talonflame...I have to though if I want a chance to Flare Blitz auto-defrost in front of the faster 'mons like Greninja.
I just wish that there were just a few more Pokémon with Shield Dust or Magma Armor.

On the other hand, it's been amusing watching everything take Rocky Helmet damage from a Keldeo of all things, especially Skuntank.
Plus I get to see a meta where the move Twister has some good potential.
 
I'm #1 on the ladder without Skuntank or Inner Focus, saying it is "required" is ridiculous. It is definitely a top mon, possibly the top mon, but there are ways to deal with it. I'll share some of the ways from my team:
Fake Out Ambipom hits it hard and will usually force it to flee (which will often let you punish the switchin accordingly with Thunderpunch or Pursuit a low health Skuntank). Feint is so weak that Ambipom can switch in plenty as long as it comes in on a Feint or Sucker Punch (this is not that hard if you aren't too obvious, and if they get overzealous trying to catch your Ambipom it is GG for their skunk).
Gengar and Froslass are both immune feint, outpriority sucker punch with SP/Ice Shard, and flinch or freeze Skuntank that tries to crunch. There is some prediction here, but I would give the advantage to the ghost types especially if sashed so they can take sucker punchs and reciprocate with a freeze.
Depending on Skuntank's EVs Mega Scizor can completely stall out feint, taking around 3%. If it catches a Silver Wind boost (this isn't hard at all) before or while Skuntank comes in it can also outspeed slower skunks with a Feint of its own (this actually ends up being a great move on Scizor), or BP if Skuntank wants to switch moves. If Scizor isn't mega it can probably run leftovers and be untouchable by Feint, or Rocky Helmet just to be cruel.
I've been able to take out Skuntanks by simply staying in on them. As people say, a skunk will often try to predict the switchin to a ghost or scizor or inner focus mon, so consider just staying in and firing off another attack. As long as you have a Skuntank counter alive it doesn't actually have to come in to force him away from feint, and one freeze is all you need from the likes of Greninja or Lapras. Some thought, mindgames, and switching around really can work wonders considering feint has such a low offensive presence.
I may not, but 90% of teams run Lucarios and Dragonites anyways, which are solid pokemon that as far as I know will beat Skuntank 1 on 1. Again, see what I said about Ambipom - feint has such a low offensive presence that you can afford to take a few just to make your switch in more unpredictable.
There are surely plenty more ways. Feint Sharpedo is one idea I had that should be able to lay some solid hits on Skuntank, and speed boosted bite and aqua jet make sure Sharpedo can actually put in work against other teams. There is no doubt Skuntank is good and there is no doubt it can beat a lot of pokemon. But I designed my team before Skuntank started appearing and it still does fine against it (only change was adding Feint to Scizor). It isn't some threat that will require you to use otherwise unviable things just to fight it, or that only has a select counter. I don't even think I've seen a team that didn't run at least one of: Dragonite, Lucario, Gengar, Skuntank.

Edit: I'm not even sure what I'm more afraid of, Skuntank or bulky Lapras with AP/Rest/Ice Shard/Iron Head or Ice Beam. My team isn't as hard-hitting as a lot of other teams I see but Lapras is just an amazing wall.
Ambipom can do good damage with Fake Out, but can't OHKO so Skuntank recovers HP with Black Sludge. You can beat Skuntank with Ambipom if you have really good prediction skills, but if Skuntank burns your Ambipom on the switch, that is thrown out the window. Gengar and Froslass can't do much damage with Sucker Punch and Ice Shard, so Skuntank can go for Crunch / Flamethrower on those moves and kill them. Mega Scizor is killed by Flamethrower, end of story. As I stated before, Lucario and Dragonite are crippled / killed by Flamethrower. Your opponent can always switch out Skuntank if you get a check in safely, so then you have to win the prediction war again and again to stop Skuntank.
 
Ambipom can do good damage with Fake Out, but can't OHKO so Skuntank recovers HP with Black Sludge. You can beat Skuntank with Ambipom if you have really good prediction skills, but if Skuntank burns your Ambipom on the switch, that is thrown out the window. Gengar and Froslass can't do much damage with Sucker Punch and Ice Shard, so Skuntank can go for Crunch / Flamethrower on those moves and kill them. Mega Scizor is killed by Flamethrower, end of story. As I stated before, Lucario and Dragonite are crippled / killed by Flamethrower. Your opponent can always switch out Skuntank if you get a check in safely, so then you have to win the prediction war again and again to stop Skuntank.
So basically, flamethrower/crunch can cover a lot of things. This is true. But if Skuntank tries to flamethrower/crunch, unless it catches a switch, it will be maimed, crippled, or dead. The fact that it has to burn things like Dragonite or Lucario or Ambipom on the switch means it won't be able to just spam feint, so anything can potentially beat it or paralyze/freeze it. Because most everything can take a ton of feints, the Skuntank needs a lot more prediction than you do if it wants to catch those burns, as you may have 5+ turns to switch before dying whereas if he goes one move without using feint and he doesn't catch the switch he is often out of commission (yes, even by Scizor who at +1 can OHKO with BP). The hypothetical Skuntank that can cover everything with proper prediction gets beat with a lot simpler prediction. And even if it switches out, nothing appreciates being paralyzed in this metagame.

I'm not trying to deny skuntank is good and that he has all the tools he needs. But I don't think he is so invincible or centralizing that he deserves banning.
 
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So basically, flamethrower/crunch can cover a lot of things. This is true. But if Skuntank tries to flamethrower/crunch, unless it catches a switch, it will be maimed, crippled, or dead. The fact that it has to burn things like Dragonite or Lucario or Ambipom on the switch means it won't be able to just spam feint, so anything can potentially beat it or paralyze/freeze it. Because most everything can take a ton of feints, the Skuntank needs a lot more prediction than you do if it wants to catch those burns, as you may have 5+ turns to switch before dying whereas if he goes one move without using feint and he doesn't catch the switch he is often out of commission (yes, even by Scizor who at +1 can OHKO with BP). The hypothetical Skuntank that can cover everything with proper prediction gets beat with a lot simpler prediction. And even if it switches out, nothing appreciates being paralyzed in this metagame.

I'm not trying to deny skuntank is good and that he has all the tools he needs. But I don't think he is so invincible or centralizing that he deserves banning.
this reminds me of the sticky web+ nidoking strategy I use in UU: if you get the predict right, your opponent -or should I say target- quickly dies, but if you guess wrong you die
 
Well I don't think the skunk needs banning, but the fact that stench = kings rock = razor fang makes stench need a QuickBan tbh. That bans skuntank's viability unfortunately, but it's way too over centralizing, and this ain't even UBERs. The OMoTM isn't nearly long enough to allow for suspecting such a broken thing. Priority Flinching and overall everything flinching was, after all, the reason kings rock and razor fang are banned. If stench is kept alive, that purpose is defeated...

Edit: To forestall derogatory stuff, I do know that it's being suspected.

On another note, I've being doing acceptably with non-priority users by using a wide lens elemental fangs/protect aerodactyl as late-game sweeper. It's blazing speed + the status AND flinch make it just powerful, especially with its resistances. Additionally, the fact that ditto don't run wide lens make them unable to successfully copy this :D
 
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Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Introducing everyone to the new Haxmons Council
- Snaquaza
- Xylen
- Lcass4919
- The Reptile
- PokemonMasterDebater

All of them have a good knowledge of the metagame, most have participated in discussions in #haxmons and have posted on here. You can still join the council, but we'll go to nine maximally.
Anyway, our first vote was about banning Stench. The vote was 5 Ban, 0 No Ban, 0 Abstain.
This means that Stench is Quickbanned.

It will be the only quickban, next time a Pokemon will get suspected (if anything) and you'll have a few days to discuss. A Pokemon needs 67% of the votes to be banned as of now.
 

Xylen

Perfect Harmony.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Ill share real quick why it is seen as "OP". Stench gives all moves a flinch effect (Haxmons mechanics). While this does not seem op, the pokemon that gets it abuses it a lot.
Some example goes to Muk With Shadow Sneak, but the noticeable one is Skuntank with Feint and Sucker Punch, two really good Priority to abuse with Stench. Both pokemon usually move first due to Priority moves, flinching so you cant do anything.
 
Introducing everyone to the new Haxmons Council
- Snaquaza
- Xylen
- Lcass4919
- The Reptile
- PokemonMasterDebater

All of them have a good knowledge of the metagame, most have participated in discussions in #haxmons and have posted on here. You can still join the council, but we'll go to nine maximally.
Anyway, our first vote was about banning Stench. The vote was 5 Ban, 0 No Ban, 0 Abstain.
This means that Stench is Quickbanned.

It will be the only quickban, next time a Pokemon will get suspected (if anything) and you'll have a few days to discuss. A Pokemon needs 67% of the votes to be banned as of now.
Just to post it here, I'd like to challenge the ban by saying what breaks the game currently is Skuntank, not Stench itself, and Skuntank achieves this because it has a +2 Priority move [Feint] and a very powerful +1 priority move [Sucker Punch]. Other pokemon with Stench don't possess this level of Utility for the ability - Muk has a +1 priority, but is rendered somewhat helpless against anything which can wall Shadow Sneak due to its low speed.

With all of this in mind, I move for banning either Skuntank or Feint - Skuntank wouldn't be nearly so bad if it had only Sucker Punch to work with [Substitute, anyone?], but Feint can be used to strike before other priorities on other pokemon, so I'd ultimately think Skuntank is the core problem here and would have the smallest impact on other strategies if removed.
 
While I don't think Stench is broken (it's easily countered with Inner Focus) however, there is no denying it's overcentralizing. Almost every team runs an Inner Focus user in order to beat stench. It practically forces Inner Focus to ran by something on your team. I'm on the fence about this ban. I would be fine either way, and I understand why either choice would be picked.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Yea, let me explain.

At first I horribly underrated Stench, mostly because I didn't know there was anything with any good priority. Anyway, Skuntank got Sucker Punch and Feint and Muk got Shadow Sneak. Eventually this forced every team to run Inner Focus or Extremespeed or you'll HAVE to sacrifice something to beat it. (PP Stalling, you can get lucky with Flame Body, Fake Out/Feint). This overcentralizes the metagame as while Inner Focus has always been good, the fact that Flinching is priority makes it so that you can't beat it using Scarf/Other Priority.
Yes, it's true mostly Skuntank was the problem. But you can still run Scarf on anything and get very powerful flinching moves or run Shadow Sneak Muk. It's clearly the ability which makes the Pokemon too good rather than the Pokemon which are too good because of a good ability. Compare it to Wonder Guard. Currently the only Pokemon that has it has a HP of 1, which is extremely bad so it's easily killed. But if you give it to any other decent Pokemon it'll be pretty incredible. That's Stench too, if you give it to any Pokemon with priority it will abuse it badly and getting very hard to beat as it basically prevents your opponent from moving.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
That's true, but it now it's basically required for a successful team, without Stench it's just used to handle Flinching better..
 

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