Hazards in BW2

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by BlackLight, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Anyone who has played competitive Pokemon knows that entry hazards can be important factors in a battle. Stealth Rock can often turn a decent Pokemon into a rather bad choice, simply because they are weak to Rock, and thus will lose 25% (or more!) of their health upon switching in. Spikes can be stacked up to three times, and will take off a chunk of health from grounded Pokemon. And Toxic Spikes inflict poison upon any Pokemon who isn't immune to Poison, although this can be averted by using non grounded Pokemon. With multiple hazards, merely switching can rip an impressive amount of damage from a Pokemon, which makes taking attacks and/or setting up a tougher job, and can easily kill them off with repeated switching.

    Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on which side of the field the hazards are on), there are ways to remove hazards. Toxic Spikes can be eliminated by switching a Poison type into them, while all hazards can be removed from the field by using Rapid Spin. It is also possible to keep hazards off the field altogether, by switching in a Pokemon with the ability Magic Bounce while the opponent tries to lay down the hazards.
    Of course, there are ways to prevent the removal of hazards as well. Ghost types are immune to Rapid Spin, and thus can prevent the removal of hazards by taking the attack.

    So lets hear from you, now.

    • What Pokemon have you found are successful at laying down entry hazards?
    • What Pokemon are good at removing or preventing the use of entry hazards?
    • What Pokemon or strategies can be used to prevent the spinning of entry hazards?
  2. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Mord Fustang
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    Yeah, hazards are really really important in today's metagame. If your team dies not exhibit at least some form of hazard control, you will be ripped apart by well played Hyper Offense, a decently popular style. It isn't just for stall- offensive teams love the extra damage and the breakage of opposing sashes.

    A new sort of sub strategy that I've seen people say is Spike-stack Offense. It basically involves leading with a spiker, prmarily Deoxys-D, then laying down 3 layers and dying. Afterwards, you just pummel your opponent with so much offense that they don't have time to spin, nor could they risk too. Deoxys is really the only setter in that strategy because it retains decent speed- so that it is not as scared of Taunt as Foretress or Ferrothorn. It can also put forth some offense- utilizing its wide movepool to punch holes in spinners.

    The way I usually handle spinners is 'low reward high risk', and goes alon the style of spike stack offense. Basically what this is is taking advantage of Rapid spin's abysmal power to set up or deal heavy damage to their spinners. You basically get a 'free turn' as they spin, and there are hordes of pokemon I know that can turn frim pretty harmless to monstrous in just one turn. (Personally, I use Jirachi.) In fact, this strategy can be used to play mindgames. If I know that my opponent has a weakness to SR yet they've covered it with a spinner, I'd use hazards as a bait for a 'free turn' as my opponent spins. During that turn, I can set up and sweep, or, I can KO the spinner with a surprise set and reset hazards later. This strategy generally only works with SR, however, as spikes require more turns to perform and the outcome is in general not as beneficial.

    In cases where my opponent chooses not to spin, well, their Volcorona is going to be taking 50% every time it switches in, so I'll have an advantage either way.
  3. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
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    Entry Hazards are always a big deal, but I feel like in this metagame spikes and toxic spikes are a bit harder to work with since it's so fast paced and any free turn you hand out is crucial. I've also had a lot of matches where I never bothered to get up SR and didn't regret it in the slightest, so maybe for the time being entry hazards are a little less important then they have been in the past. Still, the threat of SR is still doing its job of keeping people from running a ton of focus sashes and things weak to Rock and I think it's a must-have for every team.

    Of the three types SR is definitely the one that I've seen the most, and it easily has the biggest effect on any match it's in. I'm sure everyone knows by now all of the OHKOs it guarantees, but it also really helps against choice items, since they're switching out so much, and it's pretty necessary if you don't want Dragonite to have a free turn via Multiscale. As for getting SR up I've been using Mamoswine to do it and he does an OK job. I run max hp / max attack with a Lum berry so I can take a lot of random hits as well as any status and make sure to get SR up. Typically works, and he doubles as a nice physical threat / revenge killer. From what I've seen Landorus-T and Ferrothorn also do a good job, as they've been the two most used against me in regards to getting SR up.

    Honestly haven't really come across a spikes user that isn't awful once spikes are down. Forretress isn't bad i guess since it can spin, but he's not a great fit on offensive teams and they're the teams that like spikes the most. Toxic Spikes is kinda the same deal, but Tentacruel is better than Forry as long as it has rain. The spike stacking teams that run Deo-D + 5 sweepers or whatever variation of that formula they favor aren't super common from what I've seen, and as long as you don't make your team crazy spikes weak they aren't a big deal.

    Keeping off SR is really hard since you can throw it on something with offensive firepower and it only takes one turn. The other two are a lot easier since you can easily diagnose which Pokemon on the other team is going to try to get hazards down and you just have to anticipate it coming in and then not give it an opportunity to do so. If they get more than one opportunity to do so from what I've experienced the match is in late-mid to late game and entry hazards aren't as big a deal. If it's a stall team that's different obviously, but you should have something to break those anyway so that's a different process of preparation.

    Rapid Spinning is something that I've seen a lot of since pretty much everyone that runs Dragonite is packing a spinner, and a lot of rain teams bring Tentacruel or Starmie, but Starmie usually dies pretty quick and Tentacruel is setup bait for the most part. Forry is too, but to a lesser extent since he can volt-switch out and regain momentum. Out of the three Starmie is my favorite since I don't really like playing defensive, but all three seem to do a good job. Doesn't really seem to be a solid spin blocking presence, Gengar works for offensive teams but he can't really switch in with impunity since he's so fragile.

    Overall I think Hazards are actually a little less present compared to the past, but they're still and always will be a super important part of the metagame.
  4. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    Spikestacking with a Ghost is imo fantastic, and I'd say Deo D spikestacking is the best because it solves simple goals; gets down rocks, plus a spike layer, and can kill Spinners (Psycho Boost, HP Fire, Tbolt), common counters (HP Fire), and Xatu (Tbolt). The difference between 1 and 3 layers of spikes tbh isn't huge if you have rocks down, which is why 1+1 is so good.

    But you also have spinning. Starmie and Tentacruel are so goddamn good at what they do, and Reflect Type Starmie is absolutely amazingly solid and should be used on so many more teams.

    Tbh most things that could be running Toxic Spikes (and by that i mean...what, just Tenta and Forry?) should be running Toxic instead or using that fourth move on something better. Like with Forry for example, let's say you have a Rocks user on your team, so your Forry set would be something like Spikes/Spin/Tspikes/Gyro. Take off Tspikes for Volt Switch and you're good. Or with Tenta, SubToxic is fantastic and the strategy does NOT work with Toxic Spikes. I still do sometimes run Toxic Spikes on my Tenta, but for that I'd say it's more of a toss up. Forry should stick to running Spikes or Rocks/Spin/Vswitch/Gyro or EQ or HP Ice.
  5. bubbly

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    I've actually had a lot of trouble abusing entry hazards on anything but dedicated suicide leads in this meta. HO + Xatu is everywhere, as is HO + Deoxys-D, both of which basically ruin defensive spikestacking teams. Almost every team has either a Spinner or a Magic Bounce user, and Toxic Spikes are less viable than ever with Tentacruel and Amoonguss everywhere. And as someone said above, there are so many dangerous threats around that giving away free turns is just dangerous.
  6. Ames

    Ames

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    What reflect type set/EVs would you recommend for a spinner?
  7. Alexander.

    Alexander.
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    I agree, the entry hazards are very important in this game...

    What Pokemon have you found are successful at laying down entry hazards?

    I find an important setter of entry hazard in Deoxys-d, it can easily set stealth rock and 1 layer of spike with its bulkyness and with its decent speed. As already said, it can destroy rapid spinner with its coverage moves (HP Fire, Thunder/Thunderbolt and Psycho Boost).

    What Pokemon are good at removing or preventing the use of entry hazards?


    I love much Xatu because it can switch-in on the most common setter of entry hazards like Hippowdon, Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn etcetera. For removing them I always use/used Starmie, SubToxicTentacruel or Choice Band Tyranitar plus Forretress. Starmie can 2hko Jellicent (with a offensive evs spread), destroy Gengar, Tentacruel can beat Gengar if the rain is up and Gengar doesn't have Thunder/Thunderbolt and can toxic-stall Jellicent. Forretress can use Volt switch on Gengar/Jellicent and Choice Band Tyranitar destroys Jellicent and Chople/Choice Scarf Tyranitar destroys Gengar. Then, which anti-spinner remain? Cofagrigus? Chandelure? Dusclops?

    What Pokemon or strategies can be used to prevent the spinning of entry hazards?

    The answer is above. I don't like use anti-spinner in BW, I find them useless. They can't block rapid spinner users.
  8. Sn00p

    Sn00p

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    In my opinion, Toxic Spikes are completely useless in today's metagame. 13 (or 15 if you count Espeon & Breloom) of the Top 20 of the OU Usage Stats (PO though) are immune to Toxic Spikes, 1 of them even removes them. And Politoed, Ninetails & Tyranitar often don't stay in long enough for the Toxic damage to matter. If you factor all that in, 18 of 20 Pokemon don't care about Toxic Spikes. That's 90%.
    Moreover, laying down just one layer of Toxic Spikes can even be useful for your opponent, because there are a lot of Pokemon that would rather take a bit of damage than be rendered completely useless by a Will-O-Wisp or Thunderwave. Often I have switched my Jellicent (who's one of the few Pokemon that actually really care about being badly poisoned) in when there was just one layer, meaning it would be immune to any other status (including being badly poisoned) for the rest of the game. And the poison damage can easily be healed off by Recover.
    In conclusion, Toxic Spikes are useless right now, because
    a) too many Pokemon are immune to Toxic Spikes or don't care about it, and
    b) you really need the 2nd layer down, otherwise you might just be helping some Pokemon.
  9. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    • Stealth Rock is THE staple move of the metagame. It should be present on every team. It is the easiest hazard to setup, and affect any pokémon bar the obvious exception of Magic Guard users. The extra damage may look minuscule to you but can really make a difference many times, making 3HKOs and 2HKOs become 2HKOs and OHKOs, respectively. Not to mention those revenge killers that hate having to take residual damage every time that they enter on battle. Even if you aren't looking for this, there is another reason to use Stealth Rock: being able to break Focus Sash, Multiscale and Sturdy. This can sometimes mean a difference when trying to battle against enemy Dragonites, also you should be prepared to gimmicky but annonying strategies such as F.E.A.R and Copycat Riolu.
    • Spikes is another great entry hazard, unfortunately not as great as Stealth Rock. With too many flying/levitating things on the metagame, this entry hazard should only be used as an auxiliary hazard with Stealth Rock. Being able to do more damage to grounded things that resist Stealth Rock is a plus, but getting three layers of Spikes is very hard, if not impossible. When you get one layer of this and of Stealth Rock, however, you are certain that your opponent will be sad. This entry hazard is still amazing and should be used if you can afford to.
    • Toxic Spikes however is awful. There are too many things immune to this hazard on the metagame, many things that aren't immune generally don't stay enough on the battle to care about it, and with grounded Poison-types being more common on the metagame (read: Venusaur, Ammoongus, Tentacruel) Toxic Spikes may prove to be a waste of moveslot on some situations. Not to mention that the residual damage from poison adds too slowy in comparison with Spikes and Stealth Rock, to be useful for offensive teams. Also, as the user above said, if you can't get two layers, your opponent can take advantage of the normal poison to become immune to toxic poison, burn, paralysis, sleep! Don't bother using this except on stall teams, but who uses stall these days?
    As for the questions:



    • What Pokemon have you found are successful at laying down entry hazards?
    Forretress. It's a staple on most of my teams because not only it lay down hazards, but it can also get rid of them with Rapid Spin. However, if you aren't looking to use and get rid of hazards in one pokémon, you are better off using Ferrothorn. It's better than Forretress because it has much more utility (can paralyze the opponent, annoy him with Leech Seed, and defeat Water-types with Power Whip) has better Special Defense and a better tipying (both defensively AND offensively). The only reason why I don't use it is because I really need Rapid Spin from Forretress, but I am willing to always use Ferrothorn if Game Freak gives Rapid Spin to it on the next game or generation. Still, I've used it on the past and is extremely good on what it does, and unlike Forretress it's not setup bait for most Pokémon.


    Apart from the two, I've managed to setup Stealth Rock using Tyranitar, but it's a bit harder for him to use hazards because of its common weakness.


    I can' say anything about Deoxys-D because I didn't yet tried to use him. Also, as a last not; I've tried to use Stealth Rock on offensive sets of Heatran, and failed miserably, because Heatran rarely gets a chance to use it. Don't use Heatran to setup hazards, never, unless it's defensive.


    • What Pokemon are good at removing or preventing the use of entry hazards?
    Forretress, as I said above, but I'm also using Xatu to great sucess. Xatu is great because the entry hazards will be on my opponent's side. Their spinner is forced to take residual damage to get rid of it. Ah if I had a ghost to abuse this fact... I've tried to use Starmie, but it's only useful on rain teams. I've tried to use it on a sandstorm team, and it's not good. It's either weak offensively because it's forced to use Leftovers to mitigate the sandstorm damage, or it dies too quickly because of the residual damage from both Sandstorm and Life Orb recoil. If you plan to use both Recover and Rapid Spin to mitigate this, be prepared to deal with the fact that now you have worse coverage. Unfortunately Starmie suffers from four-moveslot syndrome and thus I recommend it only for rain teams. However, at those teams, Starmie is definitively the best spinner. I've also used Starmie on sun teams! However Starmie definitively works best on rain, as boosted Hydro Pump and acess to Thunder more than compensates for the lack of Life Orb if you decides to use Rapid Spin.

    • What Pokemon or strategies can be used to prevent the spinning of entry hazards?
    Unfortunately it's hard to prevent hazards from being spinned. Most Ghost-types nowadays have flaws that prevent them from being staples on most teams. Jellicent is only useful on defensive teams or if you are looking for a stallbreaker (and there are faster stallbreakers). Gengar is too frail and has only one good STAB, and is forced to rely on a innacurate move for coverage. Cofagrigus is too slow, Mismagius is frail on the physical side, and Golurk is not only slow, but is half Ground-type, making him weak to attacks that many spinners commonly use, such as Hydro Pump. Other spinblockers like Dusclops, Dusknoir and (lol) Banette are just bad. Unfortunately the best spinblockers are on the Uber tier, Arceus-Ghost and Giratina to name them. They are good on just about any team, but as I said they are Ubers. OU lacks a spinblocker that can be used on every team, I think that changing Rotom-A's types was a bad idea in the end; it was the best spinblocker that ever existed on OU.
  10. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Toxic spikes are even terrible on stall teams, use toxic for that one one pokemon that it may be actually useful for, or any other move however niche it is. Heck, ive used another spikes / rocks setter over stealth rocks because I need rocks up... and not to waste 2 turns setting up poison for 2 pokemon.
  11. Pombo

    Pombo

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    I dont agree with TSpikes being useless. In fact, they are powerful BECAUSE people overlook them.

    Ive had a lot of sucess with a Tspikes Tentacruel in a rain team just because people didnt bother trying to spin them. I mean, they do, but not as much as they would if i set SR + Spikes. And, as its known, Tspikes hits EVERY SINGLE WEATHER STARTER.

    "OMFG Pombo, you idiot.... who cares?? Weather starters dont stay in enough for the poison to rack up!". Well, i know that. BUT they cant heal as well. Even better, a single layer will DEAL damage every turn. In other words, unless they are a giant hippopotamus or have wish support (the latter can be exploited by your own team very easily), every single health point taken is NOT going to be recovered. And no, no Ninetales ever uses Morning Sun.

    So, if you are running a balanced or defensive weather team (im currently using Toed/Tenta/Dug/Gene/Ferro/Tornadus (I'm Fermat)), toxic spikes ARE a good option. Its not always possible to kill their weather starter with Dugtrio... And Tspikes are my backup plan.
  12. Eranu

    Eranu

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    ~What Pokemon have you found are successful at laying down entry hazards?
    I've been testing different teams for a while now and the pokemon that lay down hazards the easiest are in my eyes Deoxys-defense and Forretress. Deoxys-defense is almost impossible to ohko with tanga berry and Forretress has sturdy. However, if you only look for something that lays down just stealth rocks i feel the Sash Lead Terrakion set does it best. Being able to ohko Xatu and Tornadus-t, only Taunt Alakazam/Sableye can prevent it from setting up Stealth Rocks.

    ~What Pokemon are good at removing or preventing the use of entry hazards?

    Removing: Starmie strikes me as the best rapid spinner. Being able to beat most spin blockers 1v1 is its greatest quality. Ohko'ing Gengar and Sableye (Rain boosted Hydro Pump). Most starmie don't carry Thunderbolt anymore so Jellicent can wall most sets.
    Tentacruel in rain deserves a mention too, as it only loses to gengar with Thunder. It can use scald on Sableye since the burn damage Tentacruel'll take is compensated by Leftovers + Rain dish. It wins vs Jellicent if it's a SubToxic set.

    Preventing: Xatu is by far my favorite. Along with U-turn support the opponent always has a hard time getting hazards up. As Lavos Spawn has shown it works great on sun. However, it works on pretty much any team with U-turn support. I feel it outclasses Espeon because it can escape with U-turn, giving you momentum. Heat wave + Toxic usually takes care of most entry hazards laying pokemon.

    ~What Pokemon or strategies can be used to prevent the spinning of entry hazards?

    What's struck me as the most effective way of dealing with spinners was editing spin blocker sets so it can deal with any spinner. For example: Scarf Gengar with Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Hidden Power [Fire]/[Ice] (Depending on the team)/Thunder(bolt). Giving it a choice scarf allows it to outspeed Starmie, which usually stays in thinking it's faster. This helps in getting the opponent's spinner taken care of early in the game. I haven't tried this with more defensive spin blockers like Jellicent, but it walls most spinners anyway.
  13. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
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    Hazards are incredibly important on every team, that extra little bit of damage can be essential when you need to put something into OHKO range or whatever. It's easy to see the most effective team archetype that utilizes hazards is Deoxys-D offense. Deoxys-D pretty much guarantees hazards against most leads, and can even run specific items to beat what it cant (Gems for spinners, Mental Herb for Taunt users, Berries to buffer certain moves, etc). Combine this with the immense bulk that Deoxys has and it's not difficult to be 3 turns into a match and have multiple hazards up. This completely paves the way for any hard hitting 'mon to do work to your opponent's team. It puts your opponent at a disadvantage right from the start, and puts them in a predicament where they become more focused on removing hazards rather than removing the Pokemon in front of them. Hazard stacking right at the start of the match makes it significantly easier for members of your team to do their intended purpose. For example, your Deoxys lead gets Stealth Rock up and one layer of Spikes. Deoxys dies, in comes CB Terrakion and they have no Ghost type. They switch in Dragonite, and it's 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock. The same thing happens every time Terrakion switches in as your opponent cannot afford to switch. The same case applies for pretty much any 'mon that can hit hard without any setup, but the point I'm trying to make is the same. It eases prediction incredibly, and when you combine this with a Spinblocker, it's such an effective strategy.

    As for spinblockers, the most effective I've found is Life Orb 4 Attacks Gengar. It's great for keeping hazards up, while still applying the offensive pressure you need on offense. Even in situations where Gengar is simply sent it to spinblock, you can easily pivot switch out into something to beat the spinner in question (Gengar vs Starmie, Gengar comes in to spinblock, switches out into Scarf Genesect or w/e to take Psychic, U-Turn out for momentum). It's a very effective way of keeping your hazards up, and even if they do predict your pivot switch they'll still need to switch regardless, giving you momentum no matter what. The set I used was Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Icy Wind. It was made to sweep late game, not to just block Rapid Spin. Thunderbolt mauls Tentacruel trying to Spin while Icy Wind hits DD Nite and other Dragons much harder as they try to get a free DD against Gengar. It does much better than Sableye or offensive Jellicent (is that a thing?) and I have found myself unexpected sweeping through weakened teams with it, very cool set.
  14. tehy

    tehy

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    Jimbon;you realise you'll be taking a hydro pump, right? That's assuming you predict perfectly and all that. And if it's LO, you're boned. If it's not, sableye is still better than that. Certainly you can double pivot to something else, but this is true for most ghosts in general. Mainly, that just beats donphan better.
  15. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    What Pokemon have you found are successful at laying down entry hazards?
    Well, speaking of stealth rock, i think that only a few are really available. Tyranitar comes to mind, for example, chople berry tar has a lot of chance to setup and it can give pressure to the opponent. Special defense jirachi can do the job, even tough its not really good against sun teams. The same goes for heatran, its not that great against rain teams but it can be used under hail/sun. Mamoswine can be a good Srocker, because it can give a lot of pressure to the opponent, but it has to be used on offensive teams. Dugtrio is a pokemon that sometimes fails to setup srock, but a lot of teams needs do rely on it. Hippowdown, expecially specially defensive variants can setup srock easily. Terrakion and landorus can be used if you dont have any other slot. Speaking of spikes, i think that theres only one good pokemon that can do it, called skarmory. Forretress can be a nice toxic spiker user only because toxic spikes can be usefull sometimes, and useless some other. Lets say that your opponent has a team weak to ts, u can just lead with forretress and setup a layer. Spikes in other hand are way more usefull, so its pointless to give it to forretress, because it doent have recovery, and the only thing that it must do is to spin, and sometimes it fails even at doing so. Speaking of sr+spikes, deoxys-d is the best for ho teams. really, it can always setup rocks with its bulk, unless taunt, and sometimes it can even spike without problem. Ferrothorn, is very usefull under rain, it has a lot of resistances that it can abuse to setup both srock and spikes. Toxic spikes tentacruel can be used, however i think that toxic spikes sometimes fail to be usefull.



    What Pokemon are good at removing or preventing the use of entry hazards?

    well, Orbmie is perfect for offensive teams. With recover it can even be a good spinne runder sand. Tentacruel is perfect under rain with rain dish. Xatu, paired with dugtrio its a nice way to prevent stealth rock and stuff. To prevent the use of entry hazards, just use an heavy offense team that makes your opponent forfeit before they can even think about to click "stealth rock"


    What Pokemon or strategies can be used to prevent the spinning of entry hazards?

    Well, as i said before, take advantage of the turn they waste to spin and do Sd/dd or something like that. I think that jellicent in stall teams can be used with success because it prevents spinners to spin, just be carefull about thunder of starmie and sub toxic cruel. Gengar can stop some spinners, even tough its better in heavy offense teams with the support of deoxys-d.
  16. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I agree with many of you that expressed disappiontment toward Toxic Spikes in this meta. Stealth Rock is more vital than ever, many threats absolutely require that you set your own Rocks to be manageable. Sash Dugtrio is the prime example, however Multiscale Dragonite, Volcarona, all those Therians (especially Thundurus) are all handled far easier with SR in play.

    Spikes are useful, indeed, but it's getting increasingly hard to find something that can set up them without putting yourself into horrible situations. Also, things like Magic Bounce Xatu, Sableye and Taunt Tornadus are there to negate your opportunity to do so (or even worse, to make it backfire horribly). It's not helpful either that most of the Spikes users out there leave a lot to be desired offensively, thus becoming easy set-up bait, or free switch for a random Spinner. Using things like Gengar and Sableye on your own increases a lot Spikes' usefulness, since they can 1. spinblock and 2. force switches quite a bit. They require careful prediction, though, since they are quite frail.

    Toxic Spikes, on the other hand, are quite underhwlming. Well, they are actually great, however the sheer amount of immunities, and even worse, of grounded Poison types that infest OU almost completely remove their viability. Pombo said that they hit every single weather starter - indeed they do. However, Sun has the omnipresent Venusaur to absorb them, Rain often carry their own Tentacruel, or Starmie that doesn't care about poison and will easily spin away while forcing you to gamble thanks to its incredible Speed. Sand will probably have at least 4 members immune to those, since they tend to carry huge amounts of Levitators / Flying types, and Steel types too. Even Hail / weatherless teams often run poison types - Tentacruel is good even outside there, and Amoonguss is not bad too. Many dangerous threats of BW2 are also immune to those - Genesect swiftly comes to mind, but also Therians. Keldeo is probably the one that hates them most, but still, they're very situational, and you're often better to run other ways to status the enemy team (there are plenty awesome status users around right now, just think about that catch-all SpD Rotom-W that can single handedly shut down many threats a Rain team can pose), since there are so many awesome ways to do so.
  17. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    I run max HP and enough speed for Terrakion, rest in Sp.A. Make sure you run 4 Sp.D EVs to give Gene an Attack boost :3.

    Also, Scald/RT/Spin/Recover.

    Best spinner in the meta.
  18. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Problem using Starmie as a spinner with Recover under sandstorm, is that you are forced to replace coverage options. I want to know if someone had sucess with Starmie on sandstorm teams, with Water STAB, Recover, Rapid Spin and only one slot for coverage, and wich coverage move would be better in that case. I remember to tried using Starmie with 3 attacks + Rapid Spin, but it was not very good. The problem was the sandstorm residual damage, and the item that I used. If I used Leftovers to mitigate sandstorm damage, Starmie was too weak to pose an threat, and often couldn't defeat any spinblockers, and if I used Life Orb to power up Starmie, the recoil (especially on situations that I've only used Rapid Spin) + sandstorm residual damage + damage from enemy attacks meant that Starmie had a very, very short lifespan, and it often died before even having a chance to spin.

    But I never tried to use Starmie with Rapid Spin and Recover at same time, and I want to know opinions because it appears to be interesting.
  19. dragonuser

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    Many Sandstorm teams have used Recover Starmie to a lot of success. Defensive Starmie (Scald / Recover / Rapid Spin / Psyshock, Tbolt, Ice Beam) was used extensively in late BW1, and I have used it to a lot of success in BW2. With Starmie's high Speed and useful resistances, it becomes a bulky spinner that can offer incredible longevity. Thunderbolt can be used to hit spinblockers like Jellicent, while Psyshock hits Pokemon like Breloom/Amoonguss pretty hard. Ice Beam can also be used if your team is weak to dragons, etc. Recover/bulkier EV spread really increases Starmie's staying power, and makes him a better spinner for more balanced/stallish teams. While Starmie can offer good coverage, utilizing Recover and more bulk turns him from a strong but generally short lived spinner into a long lasting and reliable spinner.
  20. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,390
    How bout me? I decided;screw thunderbolt. Gyarados rarely appears in this metagame and he can't sweep me;jellicent is a problem but still;other bulky waters commonly used just cause a stalemate. I use lefties and it's still strong enough to pose a threat, and can defeat most spinblockers. It's got a plenty long lifespan, and i find that while it may die a tad too easily occasionally, it's usually not a problem.

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