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Discussion Healing Moves Clarification

Discussion in 'Policy Center' started by Pwnemon, May 16, 2013.

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  1. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.

    Healing moves: You can set limits on them in battles. But what counts as a healing move? Here, we discuss.

    List of Candidates:

    Draining Heals (eg Giga Drain)
    Leech Seed
    Direct Heals (eg Recover)
    Rest
    Aqua Ring / Ingrain
    Heal Pulse
    Wish
    Swallow
    Probably others that are slipping my mind right now

    What should we do with the codified list?
    Edit into the move description 'this is a healing move'
    Edit a list into the Ref Resource thread
    Edit a list into the Battle Tower
    Others that are slipping my mind right now


    Discuss!
  2. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    this is tangental but imo whatever gets included in this should replace/become what our healing move substitution class is

    edit: imo swallow also deserves a distinct place on that list, its kinda different than conventional healing moves
  3. Houndoomsday

    Houndoomsday

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    As for the list of healing moves, any move with no major effect other than direct healing should be a recover move.

    Direct Heals (eg Recover)
    Rest
    Aqua Ring / Ingrain
    Heal Pulse
    Wish

    All of the above fit my criteria (yes Rest isn't just HP gain, and same with Ingrain, but the primary effect of those two are to heal, and not anything else).

    Leech Seed and Draining Heals however, deal at least as much, if not more damage then they heal, and therefore the primary purpose is not just healing.
  4. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    oh another question is does Heal Pulse just count as a healing move for the recipient or just for the user or for both
  5. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    Not sure about the Heal Pulse as a Recovery move for recipient/user, but I'll bring up both sides...

    For recipient: Obviously, it's the recipient getting healed, after all. If the point of the recovery cap is to prevent mons from becoming stalling supermachines, it makes more sense to prevent one specific Pokemon from healing to insane amounts. Otherwise, strategies/gimmicks such as a Gallade/Gardevoir/Snorlax trio with the former 2 using Heal Pulse on Snorlax and 'lax Slacking Off or RestSnoring/RestTalking would be really annoying.
    For user: It's not the recipient who has Heal Pulse shut down by Disable and Taunt, it's the user. Also, flavour-wise, the user uses the move. Finally, the user has to pay its own MC/KOC (or trainer's UC, whatever) to learn the move.

    tl;dr whatever I'll make a post with more effort later
  6. Floating

    Floating

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    Direct Heals should count, obviously. Heal Pulse as well.

    Wish in my opinion should not count since it is not guaranteed healing. (At least not in regular battling, not sure about ASB.

    Rest should not count because it also has a major effect of removing status effects.

    Draining Heals such as Giga Drain or Drain Punch shouldn't count either due to them being sttacking moves.

    Lastly, and I believe this will be the most debated upon is Aqua Ring/Ingrain/Leech Seed - the healing per action moves. I don't think they should count due to slow pace at which they heal and also because they are generally regarded as weaker options to other healing counterparts (though we'll see if that changes with the recent updates to AR and Ingrain). Now Leech Seed isn't typically said to be weak but if it's only the healing portion that you look at, then it's really no different (a bit less total HP recovered). So for that reason I say it should not count as a healing move.
  7. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Wish should only count as a healing move against the Pokemon it heals, the same with heal pulse, they only count as healing after actually healing, Aqua Ring and Infrain should work like that too IMO (only count as healing after 6 actions)
  8. Ragnarokalex

    Ragnarokalex

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    Wish is a healing move, all it does is heal, theres no other side effect. The fact that it heals later instead of immediately is a risk to be taken by the user, not a circumstance that immunes it from being a healing move. Also Rest is used primarily to heal, regardless of whether its healing HP or healing status, its still a heal. I don't think anyones ever used Rest offensively, or at least not with much success. Im a little on the fence about wether the user or the recipient should have heal pulse count towards their limit, although I am leaning a bit more towards the recipient.

    Oh yea draining moves, I don't think they should be counting since their primary effect is the damage dealt, with healing being secondary.
  9. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    If Heal Pulse counts for the recipient, can I Heal Pulse them at the start of the match to run their recoveries dry?

    Yeah, let's just count it for the user.
  10. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Wasting 28 energy and giving your opponent 2 actions of free attacks where you're unable to do any damage beforehand (and which only potentially works if you're first so you're also wasting your second moving turn)

    yeah, I think this is fair (no different than snatching chills or encoring for an EN KO)
  11. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Erm, I think you might have overlooked something, Gerard - Let's say I use something like Recover > Aqua Ring > Recover, in a round. Given standard 2-recoveries clause, it creates a conundrum since Aqua Ring (and by that extension, Wish) is only counted when it finishes its full effect, as per your reasoning. Of course, referees can usually rule it out by saying the user has used up their recovery moves, thus Aqua Ring would no longer heal, but it's a potential loophole to abuse and rabbit-hole to confuse, so I think it'd be better if recovery moves are counted when they are used.

    That said, I would side with Gerard that Heal Pulse (and Wish pass, if possible?) should count for the recipient, not the user. There are many mons that lack viable recovery moves, and there are others who'd function as the healer in certain battles and RPs, so counting recovery moves for recipient allows for more diverse options without actually upsetting anything (except perhaps your opponent).

    As for the list:
    [box]Direct Heals
    Rest
    Heal Pulse
    Wish
    Swallow [/box]
    I'm leaning towards listing moves that provide a rather large lump sum of healing in relatively few actions as their primary effects. To that end, Draining Heals and Leech Seed usually would deal damage as their primary goals rather rely on the relatively small HP healing. Aqua Ring and Ingrain are, to use dogfish's words, but a larger Leftovers, and thus need not be in the list.
  12. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    it looks like everyone wants Direct Heals to be healing moves and nobody wants draining moves to be healing moves. in addition, i'm going to just table AR/Ingrain because we just voted that they would count as healers. That leaves:

    Wish
    Swallow
    Leech Seed
    Rest

    please keep debating these!

    imo, all of them except leech seed should count as healing moves, because the other three really have no purpose except to heal and i could give no fucks about 'balance;' if the match limits heals it's to stop you from healing so it goes quicker. However, leech seed deals just as much damage as it heals, which leads me to believe it is not a detriment to the speed of a match and thus shouldn't count as healing.
  13. Objection

    Objection

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    Pretty much this, with the addendum that Wish counts as a healing move for the target since that's who's getting healed. If a Pokemon that would receive the benefits of Wish has already used up all its healing moves, the Wish would simply go to waste.

    However, there are a couple of moves that have been overlooked for a while: Healing Wish and Lunar Dance. I would add those to the list of healing moves as well on the basis that, like Wish, the effect is to heal (since you don't really want your Pokemon to faint). Like Wish, I would say they should count as healing moves for the target.
  14. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Supporting ^ @ Obj and Pwne. Also if we could clarify that the healing moves count for the recipient upon usage of that move, I'll throw whatever weight I have behind it.
  15. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    What should count as a healing move? imo...

    Direct Heals (eg Recover)
    Rest
    Aqua Ring / Ingrain
    Heal Pulse
    Wish
    Swallow

    Are your healing moves. Officially, Recoveries are classed as moves that recover any Pokémon's HP & not reduce any Pokémon's HP simultaneously. Swallow is a different can of worms, but to be consistent with the definition I mentioned, it needs to count.

    Healing Wish & Lunar Dance? They should not count, because they also faint the user, which is inconsistent with my definition. Pain Split? It reduces HP, so no.
  16. Objection

    Objection

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    OK, since there are so many possible ways to vote on this, I am going to propose the following way of voting:

    [box]Post in bold the moves and groups of moves that you believe should count as recovery moves for the purposes of restrictions like 2 recovers / 5 chills:
    • Direct Heals
    • Roost
    • Rest
    • Draining Moves
    • Leech Seed
    • Swallow
    • Aqua Ring and Ingrain
    • Pain Split
    • Heal Pulse (counts for user)
    • Heal Pulse (counts for target)
    • Wish (counts for user)
    • Wish (counts for target)
    • Healing Wish and Lunar Dance (counts for user)
    • Healing Wish and Lunar Dance (counts for target)

    The Direct Heals category contains the moves Heal Order, Milk Drink, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Recover, Slack Off, Softboiled and Synthesis.

    The Draining Moves category contains the moves Absorb, Drain Punch, Dream Eater, Giga Drain, Horn Leech, Leech Life and Mega Drain.[/box]

    If there are any moves I have missed or if there are any that we should just take off the list, let me know.

    Oh, and I'm going to issue a 24-hour warning.
  17. Objection

    Objection

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    OK, so it ended up being a bit longer than 24 hours, but I'm going to assume that youse guys' silence is consent to the above slate and method of voting and that youse guys don't have anything else to contribute, so expect a voting thread shortly.
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