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Heart Gold | Soul Silver In-Game Tier List

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Colonel M, Mar 17, 2010.

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  1. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    By the way, I think Intelligent Systems and Gamefreak work together. They made Gyarados become the Zagaro of Pokemon.

    Okay, I think Mekkah explained the rules best, so I'm just going to copy -> paste them in here:

    "The best possible Pokemon is one that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and takes 1 hp damage from everything, while also learning every possible HM, heals itself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best ones possible.

    The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run through of the game. Those will be put in High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in Low. Things that are neither efficient nor inefficient, for example Pokemon that have some opportunity cost but end up as good as High ones, will be put in the Middle.

    Resources are available, but come with the cost of not being able to give it to other Pokemon. Giving Super Potions is fine because you can buy them and you have almost infinite money in the game. Giving a Pokemon a TM like the Dig in RBY cannot simply be assumed as there is likely lots of competition for it. The less competition there is for a TM, the more likely it is that the Pokemon in question can get said TM. A buyable TM can always be assumed, of course.

    Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded runs with luck manipulation through resets, and aim for the absolute fastest time, but the real time spent on them is usually much, much more. Just assume you want to play through in a relatively low time frame.

    Team size is actually by far most efficient if you use one member, but I'm assuming something more like 3 members as otherwise you get extremely centralized lists with starters and earlygame Pokemon at the far top and everything else is pretty much too shitty to bother with."


    For now, assume that trading isn't possible. There supposedly is a glitch with the GTS (can't confirm), but I'm going to treat it like the Mine Glitch in FE7 and assume that it doesn't exist.

    This isn't quite complete, but we threw on as much as we could. We got rather tired with some of them (see all the Water-types olol), but hey you guys can still help us out. This was made with IOS, SevenDeadlySins, Bblader, and myself. Out of a committee of 1, I was elected to post the list (hurrhurr). Articuno and co are just assumed in the Kanto Tier. Btw, the Kanto Tier is basically like a "No Zone" tier. So don't think that Togepi is actually worse than Pikachu.

    Anyway, let's get on with the show:
  2. matty

    matty I did stuff along time ago
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    I'm going to petition for Staryu in the High tier for a few reasons.
    1) Its not that uncommon and fairly easy to get
    2) It is a great Water Poke that can learn Surf and uses it well
    3) It has the ability to be quickly evolved with the addition of a Water Stone
    4) Its movepool is amazing. In fact you can almost sweep the entire Elite 4 at the end of the game with a moveset of Surf / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psychic
  3. pastel

    pastel

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    Maybe caterpie should be upper mid, at least mid.
    He is common since the beggining of the game, he just takes 6-10 levels to become buterfree.
    As buterfree, he lears confusion, wich is enough to go to the whole game alone.
  4. Sceats

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    Having recently played the game, i have to say that nidoking was a let down. Its movepool was completely dependant on tms (apart from thrash) including the highly competitive dig tm and the low pp low acc. moves found in the department store(blizzard/fireblast/thunder). Its still pretty good in that it can be fully evolved early on, and is compatible with practically every tm, but its definately not top material. Imo it should be moved to high.

    I would also recommend that chinchou and wooper be moved from mid to uppermid due to their great movepools ( they both get surf and quag gets earthquake at lv 36 and yawn at lv 31 while lanturn gets signal beam at lv 35 and the thunder tm at goldenrod) and can be found early on, wooper before the first badge and chinchou at olivine when you get the good rod, potentially before the 4th badge.
  5. Alex Practice

    Alex Practice

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    I have to agree with Sceats on Wooper.

    "The best possible Pokemon is one that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and takes 1 hp damage from everything, while also learning every possible HM, heals itself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best ones possible.

    Obtained early: You can get it right after the first gym battle, so yeah, pretty early.
    Can OHKO everything right off the bat: No, but it starts with STAB Water Gun and learns the useful STAB Mud Shot (I think that's the name) quickly after that so it won't have to rely on weak tackles to take stuff down.
    Takes 1 HP Damage from everything: Not exactly, but its naturally bulky and has great defensive typing, so it will be able to hold its own.
    Learns every possible HM: Too lazy to count them now, but probably all the water HMs, plus rock smash, plus strength...
    Heals itself automatically:
    Water Absorb.
    Has a neat ability:
    Water Absorb. It may not be as good an in-game ability as, say, Intimidate and Levitate, but it's a lot better than crap like Pressure.

    Plus, it's fucking CUTE.


    Also, may I ask what's the hype with Chikorita? I have heard people say that it performs well throughout the game, but I've never really liked its relatively bad offenses, and its typing (weak to a few of the early gyms and a lot of common attacking types). I've heard that it has the best stats out of the 3 starters and is good at supporting the team, but I'd prefer to just use Cyndaquil and sweep through Johto :P
  6. Sceats

    Sceats

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    Chicorita is terrible against all gyms but the fighting and normal one (though it does great against them). However the game isnt all about the gyms and chicorita gets razorleaf at level 6 and headbutt at ilex forest, moves that can keep it going right until it evolves into meganium and learns petal dance, a move that use little pp and is pretty powerful.

    It also gets dual screens and poison powder which can help wear down some of the tougher opponents such as whitneys miltank. Seeing as there are practically no usable grasstypes and a load of water and ground types to fight , meganium shouldnt be completely overlooked.

    EDIT: I would also like to know what our stance on evolution stones/trading is seeing as growlithe, vulpix, abra, gastly, bellsprout, poliwag, staryu, eevee (jolteon), shellder, exeggcute, machop and onix all rely on trading, which is hard for some and the evolution stones which(apart from moonstone and sunstone) cant be found before e4.
  7. IOS

    IOS

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    I agree with all the suggestions so far, although the Pokemon Sceats listed do not all need trading (only Abra, Gastly, Machop and Onix do).

    Evolution stones actually can be found before the E4 (Well, at least Water/Fire/Leaf/Thunder can). They can be obtained as prizes from the Pokeathlon, Bug Catching Contest, or can be obtained from specific trainers after you get their number (example: One of the Lasses near the Daycare will call you randomly, telling you that she has a Leaf Stone for you).
  8. matty

    matty I did stuff along time ago
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    What are you talking about; do research before you might assumptions -.- EDIT: No IOS, you just beat me by 4 mins

    Fire Stone: Johto: National Park (Come 1st in Bug Catching Contest), Route 36 (PokéGear Phonecall)
    Thunder Stone: Johto: National Park (Come 1st in Bug Catching Contest), Route 38 (PokéGear Phonecall)
    Water Stone: Johto: National Park (Come 1st in Bug Catching Contest), Route 42 (PokéGear Phonecall)

    Source: Serebii.net http://serebii.net/heartgoldsoulsilver/items.shtml

    As for things that evolve through trading, if you can get the evolutions, then all the more power to you. The Pokes will be pretty untouchable


  9. IOS

    IOS

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    I'm assuming that post wasn't directed at me, seeing as what I posted matches up with what it says on serebii...
  10. Sceats

    Sceats

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    Matty you can only get a sunstone before the e4 from the bugcatching contest and the phone calls are all based on luck. However i did completely forget about the pokeathleon.

    As for trading, i was just wondering if we were assuming that we could as onix is placed as high, despite the fact its terrible after bugsy and geodude completely outclasses it. Maybe having both onix and steelix up there could be a good alternative?
  11. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

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    Pinsir belongs above Scyther. Better attack (more important than Scyther's better speed), better moves, no nasty x4 rock weakness. Scyther's movepool is pretty bad, it should probably be moved to the bottom of the top tier and possibly lower. It doesn't learn a physical bug attack until level 41, up until then it's just Wing Attack (which comes at level 21).

    Regarding Espeon: Bite is now physical. The fact that Shadow Ball is now special does kind of make up for this, but their is an opportunity cost associated with it. Espeon learns Psychic much later, at level 64. (Ouch!) This, combined with the relatively high investment of time required to evolve Espeon, would be grounds for lowering it a tier, methinks.

    Meowth and Phanpy look awfully low, considering pickup. Free items is always nice, especially when they can take the form of Rare Candies. Perhaps both can be bumped up a tier or two?



    I'd like to compare Caterpie to Chikorita, since the two seem to be so far apart in terms of tiering.

    Caterpie comes at level 3-4 when Chikorita will probably be around level 6-7. Caterpie does have some catching up to do, and Chikorita has the advantage up to level 10 mainly due to having a 55-power STAB while Caterpie just has tackle, as well as a statistical advantage.

    At level 10, Caterpie becomes better than Chikorita and stays that way for most of the game.

    Butterfree has 80 base special attack. (Compare to Bayleef's attack stats of 62/63 and Meganium's attack stats of 82/83.) It starts with Confusion to run off this nice special attack stat. Confusion may not get STAB and Magical Seed bonus (available after the first gym) like Razor Leaf, but it's running off a higher attack stat, meaning it will do comparable amounts of damage, and when it comes to typing, Psychic blows Grass out of the water. Chikorita/Bayleef has trouble with many, many things leading up to the third gym. Sprout Tower, Faulkner's Gym, and Bugsy's gym are all very unkind to Chikorita/Bayleef, but Confusion will be hitting everything for neutral damage when it's not helping you. Later, Butterfree gets a Confusion upgrade in Psybeam and a special STAB in Silver Wind (though its low PP does hurt a bit).

    Fun fact: Meganium learns nothing but grass attacks (Razor Leaf, Magical Leaf, Petal Dance) until Body Slam at level 46 (!)

    If you want to look at other parts of their movepool, Butterfree also gets all three powders at level 12, whereas Chikorita gets Poisonpowder (arguably the worst of the three), as well as synthesis and the walls. Considering the ease with which potions can be acquired (and used), I'd call this one either a draw or one in favor of Butterfree since sleep powder can be quite useful. Butterfree's sleep powder also allows you to work around the fact that it has cruddy defense, it can buy you turns to use potions when your HP gets low (or even allow you to avoid damage completely if you put threats to sleep before they can attack).

    Bayleef suffers from one-type attack syndrome for the entire game, and grass is one of the worst types to be stuck with. It's resisted by bug, flying, grass, and poison, all of which are rather common types. TMs don't help it much, either. In fact, probably its most viable options are Cut and Strength. These moves just allow Bayleef to stay "par for the course." They are the only thing keeping Chikorita from being completely screwed against rockets. Also, lol ghost gym. The only TM it gets that is not a normal or grass attack is Earthquake, which comes after the eighth gym.

    Butterfree is mostly about psychic attacks, and psychic is resisted by psychic, dark, and steel, none of which are prominent early-game. At level 28, it gets Silver Wind which punishes psychics and darks. Bug Buzz comes at level 40 if you keep it around that long. Butterfree is very solid offensively.

    Chikorita doesn't catch up to Butterfree until level 32. At this point, you get Meganium. Meganium's special attack and attack are almost exactly the same as Butterfree's special attack. Meganium gets the advantage of being able to choose between physical and special STABs (which stack with the Miracle Seed hold item) and Petal Dance while Butterfree has only special moves. Meganium is also a tank and should need little to no healing, whereas Butterfree might actually force you to burn through potions. (It even can die against strong physical attacks, especially those that are flying or rock.) At this point, Meganium starts looking like a better option than Butterfree, especially after it learns Earthquake. However, Butterfree's Bug Buzz brings it back up to being pretty close to Meganium's level. At this point, I'd consider them tied, possibly favoring Meganium due to PP reasons. (Butterfree still only has 15 total PP between its two bug attacks.) Meganium will never have to worry about dying and has zero PP issues, but Butterfree is basically tied with Meganium for special attack and gets a very nice bug STAB as well as psychic attacks which can be useful late-game.

    Summary by level:
    • Up to level 10 - Advantage: Chikorita (STAB Razor Leaf, head start by ~3 levels)
    • Level 10 to 15 - Severe advantage: Butterfree exists and Bayleef doesn't
    • Level 16 to 31 - Advantage: Butterfree (Bayleef's movepool cripples it in certain situations, Butterfree has the better attack stat that makes its non-STAB psychic attacks as good as Bayleef's boosted grass attacks
    • Level 32 to level 39 - Advantage: Meganium. Petal Dance and better stats for Meganium.
    • Level 40+ Tied. Butterfree has a nice set of attacks, Meganium has very nice defenses.
    Also note that in order to break out of having only grass and normal attacks late game, you need to burn an Earthquake TM on Meganium, which is a high opportunity cost for sure. (Earthquake is one of the most in-demand TMs in the game.) I guess the same goes to Headbutt to a lesser extent. I'd argue that Caterpie is better than Chikorita. It's strictly better for a very sizable portion of the game, and it's still useful late-game without needing any TMs. The only time when Chikorita has the clear advantage over Caterpie is before Caterpie evolves and also during the window when Meganium is around and bug buzz isn't.

    Suggestions: split Caterpie up based on version, and move HG Caterpie up to top tier. It's definitely at least as good as other Pokemon listed there. In fact, looking at most of the other things classified as high, perhaps it belongs in uber tier.
  12. jumpluff

    jumpluff Red†Admiral
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    Espeon gets Psybeam at lv. 36, which is a fair way into the game; up until then it only gets Confusion, Swift, and TM-based Shadow Ball, which, as Kikuichimonji says rightly, there is an opportunity cost associated with. It also takes a reasonable bit of effort to get Eevee to max happiness, so I think there's just too much effort for a mediocre in-game Pokémon (saying that as an Espeon user!). Please push Espeon lower. It's not good in-game, as I have discovered multiple times but persisted anyway. =[

    Marill should be much lower as well. It has a 1% encounter rate in Mt. Mortar, which is mid-game, at a relatively low level (15), and not all Marill are Pure Power, which is the obvious reason to use Marill over Pokémon like Wooper, which are great Water-types for the reasons outlined previously, which have better availability etc. Early evolution is sweet, though, so I think it belongs more in the higher echelons of Lower Mid.

    Agreeing with the push for Wooper up higher. Any easily-caught, decent-stats Water-type has obvious utility assuming it gets HMs, and Wooper does. It gets Mud Shot at lv. 19 and Mud Bomb at lv. 19, which is pretty decent, as well as automatically having access to Surf, and Waterfall later in the game if it goes physical. Earthquake in the mid 30s as Wooper and (more importantly) 36 as Quagsire is just great, and it gets Yawn around the same time. It can even do the default HM whore Water-type thing, as it gets access to Rock Smash, Whirlpool, Surf, and Waterfall. That Wooper is so low is a travesty imo.

    Why is Pineco so high? It has awful stats barring Defense to use those good moves, evolves late for a Bug-type, and has to blow itself up to do significant damage to most stuff, which is a serious downside for obvious reasons. I suppose availability is a plus.

    I agree as well with Kikuichimonji on the following points: Pickup Pokémon need to be up higher, and Caterpie good, though I think Meganium is worse as well.

    That's all for this very moment. I approve of any tier list worked on by you guys, btw! (Tiny note: You have Snubbull spelled as Snubull in the list.)

    ETA: By the way, is Spearow up so high because of Kenya or what? It's worth noting that apparently Kenya is always Hasty, which is far from an awful nature. :3
  13. acinod

    acinod

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    IMO Exeggcute needs more love. It is obtained after you learn Headbutt so it is easily accessible. It starts off with Uproar which is an above average attack compared to Tackle. It also gets Hypnosis which is invaluable in-game. At Lvl. 17 it learns Bullet Seed, and at Lvl. 27 it gets Confusion. Exeggcute pays off after you win a Leaf Stone from the Bug Catching Contest in National Park which evolves it into Exeggutor which has gets Seed Bomb and a whopping 125 Special Attack to work with.

    If you don't start with Chikorita, then Exeggcute is a superior alternative for you Grass Pokemon.
  14. Sceats

    Sceats

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    You can only win sun stones at the national park before the e4.

    As for the whole butterfree>meganium argument one of the major benefits of meganium is its so called weakness. Grass attacks have many major flaws throughout the game, specifically the first couple of gyms and team rockets poison typed infestation, However apart from that it does great hitting the many water types and ground types thoughout the game. Also i have to say that flash+screen is a mad way to make the gym leader fights much simpler, especially when grass+normal (headbutt) is surprisingly good coverage.

    I cant really speak on behalf of butterfree having not used it, however wouldnt training it to lv 10 in the first place suck majorly? Especially when its strongest moves are gust and psybeam until lv 40. However sleep powder that accurate does seem cool.
  15. jumpluff

    jumpluff Red†Admiral
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    Assuming Sceats is correct, you can't actually get a Leaf Stone (minus getting one from the trainer on Route 34 who calls you by chance) before Kanto. I just checked Serebii.net to make sure.
  16. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

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    Not really. Most of the trainers that you encounter on the way to Violet have ridiculously low-level Pokemon. If you catch Caterpie at level 4, he can actually make it through the route without needing your starter to switch in to finish things off for him. Even starting with a level 3 Caterpie is not that bad when you consider that one of the trainers you face before Violet has three level 2 Caterpies and a level 3 Weedle. You should at least have a Metapod by the time you get to Violet, and Metapod is basically untouchable for most of Sprout Tower. Vine Whip is physical, bug resists it, and the Bellsprouts using it are level 3 until you get to the top. By the time you're fighting Hoothoots, you should already have a Butterfree or be pretty close if you've been allowing Caterpie to do most of the fighting, and the battles leading up to that point are so ridiculously easy that it seems like a shame to waste them on something like your starter that doesn't really need to farm the easy exp.
    It also gets Silver Wind at level 28, which is SE against the dark and psychic types that would resist psybeam. Butterfree's usefulness does dwindle toward late-mid game, but Confusion is a great attack at level 10 and Psybeam is also quite a useful attack throughout the game mainly by virtue of its type.
  17. Naxte

    Naxte

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    You can get one from the Pokeathlon on Saturdays before you get the National Dex:
    http://www.serebii.net/heartgoldsoulsilver/pokeathlon.shtml
  18. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    I'm in the group for pushing Wooper up a tier... Actually make that two, it's easy to just hand it water HMs and Earthquake (which is level-up at level 36, and Mud Shot is fine until then) and wreck things. Give it Protect before Whitney and you can laugh whenever Miltank tries to Rollout too.

    For those asking, Spearow is also found on that tiny part of Route 46 you can get to extremely early. It's easy to train in Sprout Tower too.

    Speaking of the normal/flying combo... I've found Togepi quite useful. It's offenses aren't great, sure, but for the time that it's a Togepi with Extrasensory it just wrecks things, especially with all the Poison-types in the game. Headbutt can do some damage but is really there for the flinch chance (with Serene Grace it's a 60% flinch rate). And it's easy to overlook, but I've found Charm invaluable against things like Whitney's Miltank and Chuck's Primeape. It should be Mid, since despite the lack of power it has quite a bit backing it up.
  19. Destiny Warrior

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    I'm game for pushing Slowpoke down. Yeah, you get it early, but its evolution is way late at level 37, and until then, its stats are rather pathetic. Besides, you need to use good TMs to make it usable really. I would say that SLowpoke deserves Mid(or if you stretech it) Upper Mid.
  20. IOS

    IOS

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    I can definitely agree with Togepi in at least mid. Colonel M and I just weren't really sure where to put him. The fact that he can single handily destroy the fourth gym no matter what level he is helps too.

    Now while we're moving Caterpie up, I think we should look at Oddish as well.

    Oddish is found in the Ilex Forest, around when you get the second badge. It can be found at Level 5 or 6, starting out with Absorb as its only attacking move, until it gets a STAB attack in Acid at Level 9. While not as good a STAB as Bayleaf's Razor Leaf, bear with it for a second. It then learns the three powders (just like Butterfree), and evolves at Level 21. Now by this time, we've probably passed through the National Park and could very easily have won a Sun Stone. This lets us evolve Gloom immediately to Bellossum, who learns Magical Leaf in 2 levels. So now we have a Pokemon who is superior to Bayleaf statistically, while having the same STAB Grass Attack, with Bellossum having three types of powders to wreak havoc with.

    When Bayleaf evolves, it gets Petal Dance and is slightly superior statistically to Bellossum. However, around this time we have access to Blackthorn City, meaning we can use the move re-learner to teach Bellossum Leaf Blade, an attack with the same power, that doesn't leave the user confused at the end. The two probably won't be learning any more offensive attacks until after the Elite 4.

    So to conclude, Oddish has a bit of catching up to do at first (although its powders make up for this), but instantly surpasses Bayleaf as soon as it evolves to Gloom (and then Bellossum), and is about on par with it when Bayleaf evolves again. I could easily see the two in the same tier. I think Chikorita down a tier, Oddish up a tier and Caterpie up three tiers makes the most sense. Or maybe Chiko belongs in Mid, I'd have to compare it to other Pokemon in Upper Mid.
  21. jumpluff

    jumpluff Red†Admiral
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    @Diana: I'm not really sure what to make of Togepi. :( Happiness evolution is a pain, and there's always the chance you end up with Hustlekiss. It does have a nice movepool, and it comes for free, but eh... I can grant arguing it up inch by inch, seeing as the tier it's in largely consists of rubbish.

    Not really sure why it's below Natu, of all things, which doesn't get anything offensively better than Peck and Night Shade for a long time (Future Sight at level 42 for Xatu), even when evolved, and also has mediocre stats. Shadow Ball is a TM a bunch of Pokémon would like, so it has to compete for that resource, and Psychic is late-game. As far as TMs you get in a reasonable timeframe, it can U-turn, and I guess... that's it.

    I'm not terribly sure if I'd say Togepi should be higher than Farfetch'd; Farfetch'd comes as is and has an awesome level-up pool (starts with Poison Jab and Peck, gets Fury Attack at lv. 7 and Aerial Ace at lv. 13, Slash at lv. 19, Swords Dance at lv. 25, Night Slash at lv. 33... blah, blah, blah), despite its mediocrity in other aspects (though both its abilities are cool, Keen Eye and Inner Focus). However, that's not because Togepi is so awful as that I think Farfetch'd itself deserves a little boost.

    I propose propelling it past, say, Teddiursa, which has a weak movepool without breeding (why bother?), is rare, is caught quite late into Johto's storyline, etc. Pickup is about the only thing, and to be frank you can get better Pickup Pokémon early, so it's not like it's extraordinary even in that facet. This also pushes it past Phanpy, which has the same issues, except reduced. I can't be bothered arguing it up any higher for now, so let's take a raincheck, although I want to add that I can easily see it above Jigglypuff as well on the basis of: needs Moon Stone, bad level-up moves (although it gets awesome TMs, TMs are extremely competitive, so I'm inclined to disregard the high-demand, rare TMs like the elemental attacks).

    I know I agreed with Kikuichimonji that Pickup mons should be higher, but that was more about Meowth if anything, and I can expound upon this if necessary.

    I should conclude as well, so for now my proposals and suggestions are: Farfetch'd above Teddiursa or Jigglypuff, Meowth into the higher parts of Mid, Wooper into High, Togepi gets a little boost too, Espeon in the higher parts of Lower Mid. Also, seeing as the tiers are pretty big (for obvious reasons), perhaps the three Mid tiers should be split up in order to add more contrast between Pokémon and to make them easier to analyse. I only ever observe you guys discuss FE tiers, so I'll leave that up to you with no input :P

    ETA: IOS o/
  22. Afti

    Afti

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    I'm going to propose that Geodude be moved to Top- it's available in Dark Cave, before Falkner, and it disembowels every Gym up to Morty, in addition to Rockets. Morty's Shadow Balls are a threat, but even then Geodude/Graveler eats him for breakfast. Oh, and it gets Earthquake at level 33.

    So, midgame, you can have:

    Rock Blast/Earthquake/Strength/Selfdestruct

    This rips through most of the game by itself.

    EDIT: Gah, can't believe I didn't see trade evo mention! Still!
  23. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

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    I don't think that Gastly belongs in high. The fact that he comes very early (level 3 in Sprout Tower at night) actually works to his disadvantage due to the rate at which he learns moves. He has amazing special attack, but he's stuck with a physical Lick (20 base power) which runs off an awful attack stat until he learns Night Shade at level 15. He doesn't get to utilize his awesome attack stat until he learns Shadow Ball at level 33, which is just ridiculous. TMs don't help him much, because for some dumb reason he can't learn Thunder. You could put him in mid, since he is awesome once he learns Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb, but he's pretty pathetic up to that point, and it doesn't seem like it's worth the time to raise him when he needs 30 levels before he gets a good STAB. If you do use him, it might actually be worth it to use the Shadow Ball TM on him, since it allows him to start being good sooner, but that's still after the fourth gym.
    No idea what Slowpoke is doing that high. Pre-evolution (prior to level 37) is most of the game, and its stats are pretty horrible for that period. Base 40 special attack really sucks when your best attacks early on are Confusion and Water Gun. Slowbro isn't anything special. Base 100 special attack, STAB Surf, and a STAB Psychic at level 54 are all just "above average," and using a Pokemon that sucks for 2/3 of the game just so you can have something that's slightly better than average for the last leg of the game isn't worth it. Slowpoke should be mid at best, and lower-mid is probably a better place for it.
    I agree with this. Geodude has amazingly good stats for a tier 1 Pokemon. It ties with Croconaw and (almost) Meganium for attack, and its defense is even better. Rock Throw at level 11 is a solid attack, and Magnitude (level 15) makes for a nice ghetto Earthquake until level 33. (Magnitude averages to 71 damage a shot, and most of your attacks will be in the 50-90 range.) Rollout can also be quite effective against gym leaders and whatnot. (This is probably a better option than Self-Destruct.) Geodude is an all-around great Pokemon. The only thing that hurts it is that it is a bit chancy up until Earthquake. None of its rock moves have a 100% accuracy (this is especially significant in Rollout's case), and it sucks when Magnitude hits for 10 power (this happens 5% of the time, although I guess a crappy Magnitude is better than a missed Rock Throw).
  24. Afti

    Afti

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    311
    Also, I'm going to propose that Sentret be moved up to High with Rattata. Furret has similar stat distribution to Raticate, sacrificing a bit of Attack and Speed for quite a bit more physical bulk, but comes five levels earlier and is an even better HM slave once it dwindles. Whirlpool only pollutes Feraligatr or Gyarados; use Furret up until you get the red Gyarados and transform it into a nice HM slave akin to Bibarel with Cut/Strength/Rock Smash/Whirlpool. Its only problem is that its Sucker Punch is a fair bit later than Raticate's, and it'll typically have started HM slave duties before it gets it.
  25. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    888
    I'm surprised Girafarig is so low. It has fairly decent offenseive stats (80/90/85), access to Agility and Baton Pass, which has saved me quite a few times. It gets Psychic quite early at level 37, and Crunch later on at level 46. Also, you can get one before Morty's Gym by going through Mt. Mortar to get to the Lake of Rage. Thanks to its Ghost-type immunity and STAB Confusion, it can then destroy Morty's Gym and gain levels very quickly to catch up to the rest of your team (you catch them at around level 15). You can also teach it Strength for HM usage and STAB. Probably not as good as Abra, but better than the other Psychics. Better than Lower-Mid, defiantly.

    Also, are the PokeWalker Pokemon going to be included?
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