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Heat Rock Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by tennisace, Apr 25, 2012.

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  1. tennisace

    tennisace
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    So the NU council (or a supermajority of it) decided Heat Rock should be an official "suspect" to be voted on. This thread will serve as a sounding board for peoples opinions.

    What you are expected to do in this thread:

    1. Post about your experience with Sun teams in this thread, both teams you used and teams used against you.

    2. Discuss Heat Rock's place in the tier; has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame?

    3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Heat Rock in this thread.

    4. Remember, you are trying to convince the council members with your posts. Keep it civil!
  2. Steamroll

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    I'll be the first council member to post, I'll mainly highlight my experiences abusing it.

    I haven't really been comfortable with sun teams in NU, especially the Chloro abusers. Outside of sun they're perfectly fine in terms of checking but when they get that speed boost in sun, it turns them into killing machines. The prime example is Victreebel, who outside of sun doesn't see much use at all in NU, but under sun it outspeeds nearly everything bar priority. Usually with the use of Sunny day, there's only 4 turns to abuse the benefits of sun. Heat Rock makes it 7, and makes it much harder for you to stall out turns with so much offensive presence from the likes of Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Eggy and Charizard. From the few battles I've seen it looks like most of the ladder doesn't pack a proper answer like Cloud Nine Altaria but instead rely on raw offensive power to keep the Sun Sweepers at bay, which sadly doesn't help at all. Even with the use of Sp. Def Altaria the chlorosweepers can just use HP ice to plow right through it, and although altaria cancels the sun it's still going to take a really powerful hit from those sweepers. The bigger problem is that Altaria is not a long term answer to weather unless you have ways to dismiss all the weather setters in the tier (personally this is why I use prankster but even that fails against some mons).

    Here's the bit from when I had to face sun teams. I HATED facing them because I couldn't build a 100% effective answer without opening myself up to other attackers or walls, which are still bountiful in the tier. Often times I would win because the opponent overpredicted on Volbeat's Prankster Thunder Waves in fear of Tail Glow passing and I luckily ended up paralyzing most of their team, which is pretty much the only way I could've won those battles and I feel pretty damn lucky I managed to pull that off.
  3. No Luck Involved

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    Confession time: I would love to see Heat Rock out of the meta tbh. It's not overly hard to set up Sunny Day even if your opponent plays well and once a Cholophyll abuser gets in it just becomes a killing field. Tactics pretty much go out of the window for 6 or so turns as both teams trade Pokemon for Pokemon. If you get through the 8 turns of Sun then you have a good chance to sweep the remaining Pokemon as long as you have kept a cleaner with you. But surviving even one onslaught without a dedicated sun check or two is a very tough ask.

    SpecsZard has been covered extensively before and while it is a bit of a liability, its power can't be denied. It's hard to tell if a Charizard is Scarfed or Specced and I think most sneaky people Scarf their Zards so it's ridiculously hard to revenge kill without priority. Funnily enough though, carrying your own ChloroBambi is a great check to Sun teams.

    But having said all that, I have honestly not seen many Sun teams at all. I battled probably less than 10 in a two week period and iirc most of them were the same guy! I was carrying my own Chloro Sawsbuck at the time so I wasn't rolled over but I honestly could not see a reliable way to survive the onslaught without using some more obscure sets. Strong priority like Absol definitely helps but we all know the pitfalls of relying on Sucker Punch!

    I tried battling with Sun very briefly and one look at the abusers really show they suffer from common weaknesses and general lack of bulk. Setting up the Sun also gives away momentum, you don't want something setting up in that time although Regirock and Volbeat sort of have their own ways to deal with it somewhat.

    I'm generally pretty conservative in my opinions on banning stuff so I'll say let Heat Rock live for now. If it really is broken then slowly the ladder should gravitate towards that and we'll see some broken unstoppable Sun teams right? I haven't seen that, at least not yet, and I haven't been overwhelmed enough times by Sun teams to really judge if they are over-powering and a bad influence. It's just one of those playstyles that completely rolls over unprepared teams really easily but then falls over when it meets something it doesn't like. Personally I don't like that but I'd love to hear other people's experiences and opinions. I tentatively say no ban, for now... But I can't deny I'd be happy to see it gone.
  4. tomtom5858

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    My oh my oh my oh my. Heat Rock is powerful. I personally don't use Sunny Day Victreebel--my preference is for the unstoppable power of LO 'Bel. General strategy: Set up sun with Persian or Illumise. U-Turn or Baton Pass out quick as you care, respectively. Send out Victreebel. If I have the opportunity, Growth (not too often at the start of a battle) then wreck with Giga Drain (keeps him healthy and able to possibly survive a Mach Punch) Weather Ball (who doesn't love it?) and Hidden Power [Ice]. It allows me to rend an entire team for six turns with an enormous amount of power. I believe that Heat Rock is too powerful for NU. If I have any sway, I vote Ban.
  5. Endorfins

    Endorfins Your Worst Nightmare
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    As an extensive user of Sunny Day in NU (and helping write the NU Sun guide) I believe I should post my thoughts on this topic.

    At first, after the Charizard and Sawsbuck drop downs, I was drawn into the enormous hype that surrounded them, and the Sun they thrived on. However, like the Gorebyss hype, it eventually died down and the threat of Sun has appeared much more manageable.

    The sheer power of sun teams is undeniable, for any team to try and wall all members of a Sun team is sheer folly. However, this power has its downfalls;
    Firstly, I'll address the most common and powerful Sun sweepers.

    Charizard
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    We all know how powerful this thing is. There's really no need for me to provide calcs since we all know how powerful this thing is. It can run a Chocie Scarf, Choice Specs, Life Orb, Substitute etc, unfortunately, it cannot run all of them. Choice Specs Charizard is uncounterable but I've found it can rarely get more than one or two KOs per match because of its rather middling Speed and the propensity for many teams to run Choice Scarfers and Absol. Sure it can decimate Altaria with Hidden Power Ice, and Flareon with Air Slash, but it requires prediction which can work both ways. Also, as soon as Zard locks itself into a move, the opponent can switch to an appropriate counter and regain the momentum. Stealth Rock is also a huge threat, limiting Charizard to basically one switchin with Rocks on the field (Solar Power will leave it unable to switch in twice). Life Orb and Substitute variants suffer from the same Speed problems as well as huge residual damage. With the damage from Stealth Rock, Solar Power and Life Orb / Substitute, Charizard can rarely survive for more than a couple of turns. Choice Scarf variants suffer from the same problem in that as soon as it locks itself into a move, the opponent can respond accordingly.

    Same goes for Specs Exeggutor and Life Orb Magmortar, just because it can 2HKO everything in the tier doesn't mean it can do it consistently and often requires prediction. A Charizard locked into Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast is relatively easy to take care of.


    Victreebel
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    This is IMO, Sun's greatest asset in the tier. Growth + 3 Attacks is devastating as is the Swords Dance set. But Victreebel suffers from 4MSS, if it chooses to run Growth and Three Attacks, it has no room for Sleep Powder, and if it uses Sleep Powder, than it loses out on valuable coverage.

    The biggest problem I've seen is that setting up Growth is almost impossible in this metagame, Victreebel is very frail and easily crippled. Even moves that don't kill it will leave it at low enough health that Life Orb will finish it off. Traditional Sun checks such as Altaria and Flareon can also check it and either use Lava Plume or Roar to phaze it away.


    Exeggutor
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    Another huge threat that can easily win games with the Sun. Solarbeam coming off 125 special Attack and a Life Orb hurts, but it isn't unstoppable

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Exeggutor SolarBeam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Probopass (+SpDef) : 41.67% - 49.07%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Exeggutor (+SpAtk) Psychic vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Flareon (+SpDef) : 41.32% - 48.8%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Exeggutor SolarBeam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lickilicky (+SpDef) : 43.4% - 51.18%

    Its not exactly plowing through the metagames top Special Walls and it also suffers from being slow even after a Chlorophyll boost, with a Modest nature, Scarf Braviary can revenge kill it! While Timid versions can be outsped by Scarf Jynx.


    Sawsbuck
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    As such, it still has all the flaws of Leafeon, it has relatively poor type coverage, and is walled by the most common physical wall in the tier Tangela. without Sap Sipper, it can't even take advantage of Tangela's Grass-type attacks and can be put to Sleep. Gurdurr revenges it with Mach Punch, and bulky Pokemon such as Golbat can either tank its hits or force it to kill itself with residual damage such as recoil and Life Orb




    In terms of using Sun teams as a whole, I've found that they've been very inconsistent on the ladder. They really immensly on offensive momentum, which if lost, will probably lead them crashing and burning. For example, I cannot lock Charizard into Fire Blast if I see Flareon on the opposing as even if I kill something with it, I immediately lose all my momentum as they can just go to Flareon and hit my Grass-types with a boosted Lava Plume or force me to waste precious Sun turns going into something such as Miltank to wall it. Sleep Powder is also an extremely annoying move as it leaves a 25% of my sun sweeper getting paralyzed / killed / almost killed.
    8 Turns of Sun isn't actually that much in real game play, people say you can set up sun, switchin, setup a Growth and sweep. But your opponent isn't going to be sitting idly by in those three turns that it takes to setup something such as Victreebel. They can setup a Substitute or boost up a sweeper of their own in that time. When you've finally got an open window, you might only have a few turns left.


    TL;DR
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    Sun isn't broken



    Volbeat doesn't even learn Taunt
  6. Dangerous

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    Now I must say there has been a noticable drop in usage of sun teams ever since the first week or so after Charizard and Sawsbuck moved down (I swear, I faced one like every other battle back then), but that doesn't change my opinion on them whatsoever. Sun in NU has always been incredibly powerful - allowing huge threats such as Magmortar, Victreebell, Exeggutor, Vileplume, and Shiftry to receive a crucial boost in Speed and/or power. Charizard and Sawsbuck, two already top threats with a lot of sweeping potential, in my opinion come very close to crossing the line; Sawsbuck is pretty much SD Leafeon on steroids with better type coverage and a useful secondary STAB, while literally nothing in the entire tier can switch in on SpecsZard safely (Solar Power boosted Air Slash 2HKO's everything with access to Flash Fire after SR, holy crap).

    From personal experience dealing with these kind of teams is all about revenge killing, keeping up entry hazards, and maintaining offensive momentum by for example pulling double switches on the expected switch to Charizard in order to rack up Stealth Rock damage. An example of what I used to use to deal with opposing Sun teams is SD Acrobatics Jumpluff - able to outspeed literally every big threat and either OHKO with Acrobatics or put them to sleep.

    I would love to see Heat Rock go, but on the other hand I wouldn't exactly call 8 turn lasting sun overpowered to the point where it's impossible to deal with.
  7. Steamroll

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    I meant Thunder Wave, thanks for catching that.

    Also between you guys and me, a core of Regirock and Altaria helps to remove and set up weather while you can also run Volbeat to support the team by Thunder Waving key opponents that could pose problems to your team and passing subs and tail glows, too!
  8. No Luck Involved

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    [​IMG]

    Was that what you were testing yesterday?
  9. Steamroll

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    no I was testing jynx with tail glow passes, I tried the other one a days ago.
  10. sandshrewz

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    Let's not derail the thread too much ~_~

    Anyway, though I haven't played in ages, my best team was actually a sun team :d Sun teams are hard to face (so are rain teams) because they are (or were) rare and people are less prepared for it compared to other threats. How many people actually take weather into consideration when building teams? I think not many. Not being prepared for them means it's pretty hard to handle them, though it's already quite hard to prepare for them anyway.

    Sun teams hold a lot of power, but that isn't really due to the use of Heat Rock. Heat Rock merely extends the window for you to abuse the sun and gives you more time to sweep, especially for Pokemon with Chlorophyll. With 8 turns to work with, minus the turn to set it up, you only have a mere 7 turns left. That and the fact that you probably need another to switch to an appropriate abuser leaves you with 6 turns unless your Sunny Day user faints on the turn it's used. 6 turns is probably enough to sweep an entire team if you can OHKO everything in each turn, but that's highly unlikely. Besides, several of the sun abusers need another turn to either set up a Substitute, Growth, or Swords Dance. Then, that will limit the number of KOs you can attain in a single use of Sunny Day. However, even though you might not be able to finish the sweep at the first try, most sun teams often can set up the sun a few more times to get back at sweeping.

    What makes sun teams threatening isn't really Heat Rock but the sun abusers themselves. Sun sweepers are generally hard-hitting and very powerful. Exeggutor can just mindlessly fire off SolarBeams while Charizard can spam Fire Blasts until they need to switch out or when sun ends. Heat Rock enables them to sweep longer, but only a maximum of 3 extra turns. Does that really change the fact that they can still sweep half the team if given the chance to? Not really. A good sun team should be able to reliably set up sun for more than once, and as many times as possible if need be though most sun teams are pretty offensive and doesn't need to get it up that many times unless it's facing a rain team or the opponent is well prepared against weather in general. Not having Heat Rock will just mean that sun teams will probably have to set up the sun more often and the shorter window will just be ending sweeps quite prematurely. Most sun abusers aren't fast enough to sweep without Chlorophyll activated, but they can still dent wholes with their powerful attacks especially if things such as Victreebel has a +2 boost under its belt.

    Banning Heat Rock won't really help to balance the metagame :/ If anything, it's probably just putting a handicap on sun teams and make them harder to use. That's just my opinion though :d Often times I've successfully pulled off a sweep without the help of Heat Rock as both my setters (Regirock and Volbeat) fainted quite early ~_~ I've been using Substitute + Sunny Day Exeggutor with Psyshock and Solar Beam mainly as a temporary backup if its still on the field and the sun has faded and I don't want to waste my Substitute if it's still there by switching out. Besides Substitute helps with a ton of stuff that are faster and status moves, but I digress. If it can still function (though probably not as well) without the extended sun, other abusers can do so as well.

    Heat Rock isn't breaking the metagame; if anything, it's most likely the sweepers themselves or Prankster + Sunny Day. The latter, though irritating, isn't impossible to stop anyway. ehhh Taunt Murkrow T.T There are many ways to keep the weather or the sweepers off the field such as keeping the entry hazards, mostly Stealth Rock, up and deterring sweepers from switching in. Swellow can pretty much spam Brave Bird to KO a sweeper if it dares to switch in and U-turn out if something like Regirock or Golem comes in and try keeping the sweepers away with something else such as Choice Band Sawk or something.

    tl;dr Sun is good. so is Heat Rock. However, Heat Rock isn't that 'metagame-breaking' especially compared to top threats such as Sawsbuck. Sawsbuck can even function without sun anyway and sun is just a boost to the abusers to make them harder to take down or enable them to sweep easier. ps Trick Room nails sun badly and people should try Trick Room more. It might even be better than sun j/s >.>

    In terms of countering sun, it might be better to focus on countering the Pokemon instead of the weather anyway :d People should keep sun in mind even when countering threats such as Choice Specs Exeggutor which performs well without sun too.

    edittttttttttttt: I built a sun team without Heat Rock. I'll post back if there's much progress in a few days
  11. No Luck Involved

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    I disagree that Heat Rock is not the suspect.

    Yes sun abusers are great Pokemon in themselves but that's exactly it. Without Heat Rock, the abusers will likely only get 3 turns to sweep if set up by something else. We all know that is not enough time to sweep, in fact it's barely enough time to punch holes. Without Heat Rock, we would judge Sunny Day Victreebel, or Sunny Day Exeggutor, or Sunny Day Magmortar individually based on the merits of their respective sets because they will most likely be setting up their own sun.

    Heat Rock extends the likely sweeping window to 6 turns if set up by a dedicated 'Sun setter', now that is more than enough time for abusers to punch holes and may even be enough for a full on sweep. Being able to rely on a Sunny Day setter means the abusers can afford to run more moves such as Substitute or more obscure coverage. While it's still important to maybe have one Sunny Day cleaner, the options available to the main sweepers open up dramatically.

    The difference is Victreebel having Sleep Powder, Solarbeam, Sludge Bomb, and Weather Ball; or Victreebel being forced to carry Sunny Day and give up one of its four deadly options or only being superfast for 3 turns. The latter is much more manageable and not broken imo. The former is much harder to handle not just in terms of longevity but also power, coverage and unpredictability.
  12. AyoGabos

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    I personally think items or Pokemon should only be banned if they truly dominate the tier. I have been playing NU for a short time -- about two weeks or so (and I love it 10x more than any other tier) -- both on the Smogon and PO servers and have only run into one sun team, which did not give me a rediculous amount of trouble. If you run SR with a Spinblocker, the Fire-type threats are handled easily, yet Chloro is indeed still a problem. I ran a Wish-Protect max-Def Shelgon with Toxic and was able to take down the foes Sawsbuck.

    I think Damp Rock is far more suspect than Heat Rock, being that it allows its abuses both a speed boost and STAB boost. I think weather is such a key component of online battling, and the removal of Heat Rock would essentially eliminate it entirely.

    I wrote this on my phone, so my apologies for the brevity and any spelling errors.
  13. Raseri

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    I am leaning towards ban on Heat Rock for the following reasons:

    - Handling the Sun Abusers for 8 turns(well 6/7) is just to much; as very few Pokemon can take them on and players are generally forced to resort to clever switching to stand a chance. So stalling out those turns is more difficult

    - It will give us more insight as to whether the weather abusers are broken or if its the longevity of it. I know this isn't a real reason to ban it but it will allow us to know if its the abusers that are broken.

    Also try taking on +2/+2/+2 Victreebel for 5 turns and tell me Heat Rock isn't broken. Without Heat Rock there wouldn't be nearly as many problems with sun; and even if you do make a mistake and let sun be set the consequences arent nearly as dire. When letting volbeat switch in once costs you the game because of its item I think its to much though many may disagree
  14. sandshrewz

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    I'm pretty much against banning of Heat Rock so I guess I'll try to address the concerns raised to ban it. Pardon me if I sound harsh or anything in advance >.>

    long quote (open)


    On another note, imo Prankster + Sunny Day makes set up wayyyy to easy and yet hard to counter, especially when Volbeat has Encore -.- Encore makes it even easier to set up. Volbeat keeps making free turns by Encoring tons of stuff and blocking status with Substitute. A team without Prankster weather is probably way easier to handle too though as you don't have to worry about them setting up the weather at the very last moment and let them sweep you all over again.

    I don't find sun as a whole totally uncounterable or breaking the metagame with the Heat Rock. Handicapping a playstyle is probably bad for it but that's just me being conservative with bans. A little more time should be given to find ways to adapt to sun though :/ As much as some sweepers are broken, I don't think many have adapted well to sun. If Heat Rock gets banned and the weather abusers are still overpowering, will Heat Rock be unbanned? >.> Pretty much the only 2 sun abusers that are too hard to handle after the approriate setup are Victreebel and probably Charizard. I haven't tried Charizard though but it's having a harder time sweeping than Victreebel :d I'm all for banning Victreebel if it's a suspect since losing a sweeper doesn't affect sun teams as a whole. The loss of a sweeper can be adapted but the loss of Heat Rock changes the playstyle quite drastically. Imo no playstyle should be handicapped at the expense of keeping any Pokemon in the tier unless that would cause every if not many of them getting banned from the tier. A change in playstlye also limits the use of Victreebel and other sweepers on sun teams though the same playstyle can be used without Heat Rock but it's too much of a hassle to keep repeating @_@

    Sorry for the long post that might not make any sense >.>

    tl;dr ban Victreebel sun is manageable with Heat Rock once the metagame has fully accepted and adapted to it. If it isn't, then overpowering sweepers such as Victreebel might be the cause of overpowering if there's any. Limiting sun to 5 turns is unnecessary in order to keep them in NU :/

    edit: I rattle on too much >.>
  15. /B/utterfree

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    If only one Pokemon (Victreebel) is the source of complaints involving a weather playstyle, I feel like we should just ban the Pokemon causing the complaints. Banning items is just beating 'round the bush, and I'm not too keen on seeing items getting banned. If it were abilities that were being banned, I'd be a lot less stingy (although if they're poorly-distributed abilities such as Sand Veil, then I'd still hesitate)

    It's parallel-drawing time: Reason Sand's still around in OU? Because Excadrill was the only broken thing in Sand (and yes, this parallel isn't as close as I want it to be). The entire weather doesn't suffer from just one Poke being banned, while the broken Poke was sent to where it belongs.

    If Sun is really giving NU a hard time, all one must do is ban Victreebel.

    It's an established fact that Charizard was way overhyped and can't last a single turn with its DW ability (Solar Power), a Life Orb, and Stealth Rock hazards laughing at it. I tried using Charizard in order to eliminate my pyrophobia as well as to use a Fire starter on a team for once, and it was complete disaster (granted, I did this a few months ago). I lost every single time I used a Sun team, even in the upper tiers.

    For all that is logical, do not ban Heat Rock.
  16. DTC

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    Victreebell is not the only thing broken about sun; in fact, I'd go as far as to say that it isn't the best abuser. Exeggutor is, in my opinion, the best sun abuser with its amazing Special Attack stat, good typing, and good bulk. Unlike Victreebell, it also has room for other moves.

    Also, Charizard is still an incredible monster. Maybe the reason why it was so bad for you was you were using Life Orb. There is no reason to use Life Orb on Charizard in the sun. It just makes it die faster. Use Choice Specs Charizard, you barely have to predict using it. Also, Rapid Spin support is incredibly useful for sun teams -- and not only for Charizard. I have no idea where you came up with the "It's been established" stuff.

    Sawsbuck is also incredibly frightening as it's virtually impossible to outspeed and can afford to run some bulk.

    There are also a few other abusers such as Emboar (it's virtually impossible to wall this guy outside of the sun), Magmortar, Vileplume, Rapidash, etc. but I don't consider any of them "broken" abusers.

    In general, I think sun is incredibly hard to beat if they can get the abusers in. Nothing will wall Charizard other than Cloud Nine Altaria (which is only useful JUST for sun; it's inferior otherwise). It can just spam Fire Blast on everything unless you have a Flash Fire Pokemon. After Charizard/ Magmortar/Emboar breaks holes, one of the Chlorophyll sweepers can easily sweep. It's fairly inconsistent and can be stopped, but it's hard to fit a bunch of sun checks on your team, and if you only have 1-2, the sun team can still get past them.

    I'd probably lean towards ban, but it's true that sun is largely based off of team match-up's.
  17. sandshrewz

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    Lol I actually think Victreebel is more threatening than Eggy... it can set up with Growth and after that its attacks are stronger. Eggy on the other hand is easier to counter without a way to boost its stat. Victreebel has better coverage too I think? However, what true counters are there to it? I'd rather face eggy than victreebel. Sawsbuck also has more hard counters like golbat and gurdurr?

    Unless majority of the sun sweepers are proven to be.broken in sun, a ban for Heat Rock would handicap other sweepers for no reason too. That would also assume that all sun teams use those overpowering sweepers for the ban to be fair. If not, sun teams that don't use them will be greatly disadvantaged.

    It would be hard to determine if all of the abusers are broken especially when sun teams are rare (i think?). Such a ban would have a huge impact on sun in general and make some abusers completely non-viable such as Choice Specs charizard. Banning it would have a greater impact on the metagame too, be it good or bad.
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