1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Heatran (Placeholder [GP 2/2])

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Moo, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    Heatran > Gyarados
    QC: 2/2 (Firecape, tr) GP: 2/2 (Zy/jc, CP)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Heatran

    --------


    [Overview]

    <p>Heatran has a unique niche in Ubers due to its very valuable resistance to the extremely powerful and common Dragon-type attacks, as well as a unique set of other resistances backed by respectable bulk. In addition to absorbing Dragon-type attacks, Heatran can successfully roast other Steel-type Pokemon such as Forretress and Ferrothorn, who can otherwise be troublesome. With a Speed stat just good enough to outpace stall-based Pokemon and access to great moves such as Taunt, Roar, and Toxic—as well as the ability to scare away the aforementioned defensive Steel-types—Heatran is incredibly useful in Ubers as a stallbreaker. Although Heatran's Special Attack stat is nothing to scoff at, it is outclassed offensively by other Pokemon such as Reshiram and Ho-Oh. A STAB Fire-type attack will still pack a punch in the sun, though. Heatran is definitely worth using and can be a major threat to stall teams when played correctly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Uber Stallbreaker
    move 1: Taunt
    move 2: Toxic
    move 3: Roar
    move 4: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Because of serious offensive competition from the likes of Reshiram, this set does what Heatran is best suited to in Ubers: stallbreaking. Because of its great bulk, typing, and movepool, Heatran can easily put a stop to defensive Pokemon and their stall-based shenanigans. Taunt is the crux of the set, stopping all Pokemon from recovering lost health, using status moves, and setting up entry hazards. Notable examples are Blissey and Chansey with Wish or Softboiled, and Giratina with Rest. Although the common Steel-type Spikes users—Forretress and Ferrothorn—will usually switch out due to a type disadvantage, either of them can take Fire-type attacks from Heatran when its raining, making Taunt advisable in that situation. Heatran cannot prevent entry hazards from being set up all of the time, because it is likely that Ferrothorn or Forretress will have an opportunity to switch in on a different team member. Double switching is vital against those Pokemon, preventing entry hazards from being set up on your side, and increasing your own entry hazard damage, provided they are in play.</p>

    <p>Toxic is great on Heatran and deals increasing damage to opponents. Whereas it is useless against most stall-oriented Pokemon—Steel-types such as Ferrothorn and Forretress being immune and Blissey having Natural Cure—it can, however, be useful for poisoning common switch-ins to Heatran such as Palkia, Giratina, Kyogre, and Lugia. Ferrothorn can easily switch in on Palkia, setting up entry hazards while Palkia's health slowly withers away. In the case of Giratina, Heatran can use Taunt, preventing it from healing itself with Rest, and resists most of its attacks apart from a rare Earthquake. Kyogre spells trouble for Heatran, so poisoning and switching to something that walls Kyogre is the best that Heatran can do. Roar can shuffle the opponent's team, and is useful when the opponent switches. Roar also stacks entry hazard damage, and can take chunks of HP from Pokemon weak to Rock-type attacks, such as Reshiram, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza. Pokemon that may attempt to set up on Heatran, such as Rayquaza, are in for a surprise, as they can be easily phazed out. Flamethrower rounds off the set, and is Heatran's only attacking move. It is used over Fire Blast, as the perfect accuracy and extra PP are appreciated on less offensive sets. Flamethrower can toast Steel-type Pokemon, and do decent damage to others, especially under the sun, 3HKOing Blissey and Giratina and 2HKOing Lugia, assuming Stealth Rock is in play. Lava Plume is an alternative to Flamethrower, sacrificing the extra damage for a larger burn chance, which can be useful for halving a Pokemon's Attack stat and inflicting passive damage every turn. Protect is also an option to stack Leftovers recovery, as well as scout a Choice-locked Pokemon's attacks.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is straightforward: 252 HP ensures that Heatran is bulky and is capable of taking hits. 128 Speed allows Heatran to outspeed Pokemon with base 90 Speed and no Speed investment, such as Groudon, Giratina, and Deoxys-D. The remaining EVs are invested in Special Defense with a Calm nature, letting Heatran take powerful Dragon-type attacks, which are usually special. Heatran can also take hits from Mewtwo and Darkrai with Special Defense investment. An Aura Sphere from a 252 SpA Mewtwo will do just over 50% damage to Heatran, and Heatran is never OHKOed by a Life Orb-boosted Focus Blast from Darkrai.</p>

    <p>Sun support from Groudon is a blessing for Heatran, as its Fire-type attacks gain a boost, and it loses its Water-type weakness. This will also ensure an eventual Kyogre switch-in, allowing Heatran to cripple it with Toxic. As well as providing sun support, Groudon has access to Stealth Rock, and can take powerful physical hits for Heatran. Ferrothorn is also another great partner, laying Spikes, and walling Kyogre. A Ghost-type such as Giratina-O or Ghost Arceus is also advised, as it can cover Heatran's Fighting-type weakness, as well as block Rapid Spin.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Heatran is far less versatile in the Ubers environment, but other options are available. A Choice Specs set can be run, but Reshiram packs much more offensive power. The only reason to use Heatran instead of Reshiram is Heatran's typing, which gives it resistance to Dragon-type attacks and neutrality to Stealth Rock. A Choice Scarf set is viable as a revenge killer, thanks to Heatran's massive base 130 Special Attack and resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Terrakion is usually a better option, however, as it is faster and does more damage to Extreme Killer Arceus. A Life Orb can be used instead of Leftovers to pack an extra punch, but this is not recommended on a set with only one attack. Fire Blast can be used instead of Flamethrower or Lava Plume for a sizable power increase should you want to take down your enemies a little faster. Dragon Pulse is a very usable option, allowing Heatran to nail common Dragon-types that switch in, such as Palkia and Giratina. It can also be used to allow Heatran to pick off a Dragon-type such as Rayquaza locked into Outrage.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Anything that can exploit Heatran's gaping 4x Ground-type weakness makes a decent check to it. Pokemon such as Garchomp, Ho-Oh, and Groudon with a few Speed EVs can outspeed and OHKO Heatran with Earthquake. Giratina-O can also OHKO Heatran with Earthquake, even though it is a rare move to be seen on the legendary dragon. However, these Pokemon aren't a major problem for Heatran, as it can simply switch out of danger. Kyogre can counter Heatran absolutely, as it takes pathetic damage from Flamethrower, and—in the case of RestTalk variants—does not mind being poisoned. Kyogre also summons rain, which halves the power of Flamethrower. While rain is in play, Pokemon such as Manaphy and Palkia can OHKO Heatran with ease.</p>
  2. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    Heatran is noob because it loses to Gyarados easily. Heatran is a cheap mon, no useful physical STAB, slower than a large Gyarados in Speed LOL, useless Steel STAB and it is afraid of Earthquakes. Marine Dragon > Volcano anytime of the day.

    On a more serious note, Choice Scarf set can be useful for revenge killing SD Arceus(since you resist Extremespeed), Darkrai, Swords Dance Rayquaza, Mewtwo and SD Groudon. The choice Scarf set deserves some testing.

    The fire and burn immunity helps Heatran a lot unless it's facing Reshiram.
  3. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,226
    Heatran used Hidden Power Electric! =P

    Anyway, have considered testing a Nitro Charge (I don't give a shit what the English name is) set? You know, Nitro Charge / Fire Blast / Earth Power / Hidden Power Rock or something like that?

    EDIT: trickroom: HP Electric w/o a boosting item vs 252/0 Gyarados: 78.17% - 92.39% => Looks like an OHKO with SR to me!
  4. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    Will test it, after I've tested defensive and Choice But I'm doubting its effectiveness with all the Blisseys and Chanseys floating around. Not to mention Kyogre and Giratina.

    I might make a Choice set instead of doing both, because pro.

    Also, Reshiram can hit Heatran with Fire due to its ability :\
  5. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    Not sure about Flame Charge set. Kyogre can just come in and you are screwed. Heatran is also quite slow, even slower than Gyarados LOL.

    Without a Speed boosting Nature Heatran can't outspeed Mewtwo or Shaymin-S.

    Oh, Gyarados easily survives a Hidden Power Electric from Heatran because Heatran is weak, a noobish piece of crap.

    Taunt Heatran will always be the main set in Ubers because it can abuse that lucky (sucky? compare to Gyarados at least) typing in Ubers where Dragon, Dark, Ghost and Fire, Ice attacks are so common.

    EDIT: I mean Gyarados can survive it at full health and Earthquake is a guaranteed OHKO :D

    This is total BS. Gyarados > Heatran any time of the day. The best way to settle this is let them fight. We all know Gyarados outruns and smashes Heatran to craps. I must admit Heatran does better than Gyarados in Ubers though but seriously Heatran > Gyarados is a nonsense :D It should be Gyarados > Heatran and don't use any Heatrans vs me or you will lose horribly, I have Gyarados in most of my teams.
  6. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,957
    Can we not have this Heatran vs Gyara discussion.

    Also really not sure on Flame Charge set because Reshiram exists. (Better STAB, more powerful, higher Speed, can't be walled by anything, etc.)

    Scarf is cool because it can revenge kill things Reshiram can't, such as Extremekiller Arceus, Bisharp, SD Ray, and isn't weak to SR + has a lot more resists to swtich in on.
  7. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,048
    First off use the standard abbreviations.

    Spe = Speed
    SpD = Special Defense
    SpA = Special Attack etc

    Not really experienced with other sets but I have used bulkytran a lot.

    • if you're going to put speed at least bump it up to 112 Evs to outspeed and Taunt Giratina-A before it rests
    • Mention max SpD in AC or something, some people may not care about Speed an just want pure bulk.
    • Mention Protect somewhere, even worth a slash IMO. An extra turn of lefties, maybe even scouting a choice move, is really helpful on Heatran with its lack of recovery moves
    • Mention Lava Plume too, that 30% burn chance can be helpful.
    ps: You're last set's EVs just say 252 >_>
  8. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    thanks
  9. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    sorry to double post, but I need to bump it for some QC input.

    I'm removing the Choice set, because it isn't very good, thoughts?

    Scarftran can't 2hko Extremekiller arceus without sun, which was supposedly a good reason to use it, a resistance to extremespeed. It can't really ohko anything decent with Fire Blast outside of sun, apart from Shaymin-S. I think it's a bit outclassed as a Choice mon so I'll just move it to Other Options
  10. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,048
    Yes. Don't sell Heatran's defensive set short. Its an amazing stallbreaker and wall, and has a great set of resistances to boot. I'm kinda iffy on a choice set, but 100% yes on the defensive set.

    QC approved 1/2.
  11. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    k, thanks for the stamp. I agree, it is awesome.
  12. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    Heatran sucks, use Gyarados. Gyarados > Heatran

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED (2/2)

    Don't like the Choiced sets since I never saw anyone used it effectively in Ubers. Mention Kyogre as the best counter since it fears nothing. Ho-Oh with Earthquake owns Heatran. Earthquake Giratina-O can suprise and OHKO Heatran.

    Put Dragon Pulse somewhere. It beats Giratina-O, 2HKOes Rayquaza and Palkia.

    EDIT:
    Too risky to stay in on Gyarados who can OHKO you anyway.
  13. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    Thanks, I'll write it up eventually
  14. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    Lava plume mention? Burning some groudon coming in is quite painful, I'd say. Rest talk should also get a mention as a reliable recovery move. It really helps with no negative priority shuffling.
  15. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    I'll slash lava plume actually, but I think Rest Talk borders on defensive territory, which Heatran isn't best suited at for Ubers.
  16. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    You think? Rest talk is really effective at shuffling and with such defenses, it definitely deserves a mention (it was a suggested set in the heatran discussion thread in ubers).
  17. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,614
    [​IMG]



    Also please edit your thread title, as it isn't a placeholder. anymore. "(Copyediting) Heatran [GP 1/2]" is fine.
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,778
    crap ninjad twice in one day.

    This is NOT GP 2/2. Many of the changes overlap, and you notice that I have found quite a lot more than Zystral which needs changing.
  19. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    Thanks guys, I edited in both checks
  20. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,666
    Deletions
    Additions / Corrections
    Comments


    Show Hide

    [Overview]

    <p>Heatran has a unique niche in Ubers due to its very valuable resistance to the extremely powerful and common Dragon-type attacks, as well as a unique set of other resistances backed by respectable bulk. In addition to absorbing Dragon-type attacks, Heatran can successfully roast other Steel-type Pokemon such as Forretress and Ferrothorn, who can otherwise be troublesome. With a Speed stat just great enough to outpace stall-based Pokemon and access to great moves such as Taunt, Roar, and Toxic—as well as the ability to scare away the aforementioned defensive Steel-types—Heatran is incredibly useful in Ubers as a stallbreaker. Although Heatran's Special Attack stat is nothing to scoff at, it is outclassed offensively by other Pokemon such as Reshiram and Ho-Oh. A STAB Fire-type attack will still pack a punch in the sun, though. Heatran is definitely worth using and can be a major threat to stall teams when played correctly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stallbreaker
    move 1: Taunt
    move 2: Toxic
    move 3: Roar
    move 4: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Because of serious offensive competition from the likes of Reshiram, this set does what Heatran is best suited to in Ubers: stallbreaking. Because of its great bulk, typing, and movepool, Heatran can easily put a stop to defensive Pokemon and their stall-based shenanigans. Taunt is the crux of the set, stopping all Pokemon from recovering lost health, as well as using status moves, or and setting up entry hazards. Notable examples are Blissey and Chansey with Wish or Softboiled, and Giratina with Rest. Although the common Steel-type Spikes users—Forretress and Ferrothorn—will usually switch out due to a type disadvantage, either of them can take Fire-type attacks from Heatran when the rain is up, making Taunt advisable in that situation. Heatran cannot prevent entry hazards from being set up all of the time, because it is likely that Ferrothorn or Forretress will have an opportunity to switch in on a different team member. Double switching is vital against those Pokemon, preventing entry hazards from being set up on your side, and increasing your own entry hazard damage, provided they are in play.</p>

    <p>Toxic is great on Heatran and deals increasing damage to opponents. Whereas it is useless against most stall-oriented PokemonSteel-types such as Ferrothorn and Forretress being immune and Blissey having Natural Cureit can, however, be useful for poisoning common switch-ins to Heatran such as Palkia, Giratina, Kyogre, and Lugia. Ferrothorn can easily switch in on Palkia, setting up entry hazards while Palkia's health slowly withers away. In the case of Giratina, Heatran can use Taunt, preventing it from healing itself with Rest, and resists most of its attacks apart from a rare Earthquake. Kyogre spells trouble for Heatran, so poisoning and switching to something that walls Kyogre is the best that Heatran can do. Roar can shuffle the opponent's team, and is useful when the opponent switches. Roar also stacks entry hazard damage, and can take chunks of HP from Rock-weak Pokemon weak to Rock-type attacks, such as Reshiram, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza. Pokemon that may attempt to set up on Heatran, such as Rayquaza, are in for a surprise, as they can be easily phazed out. Flamethrower rounds off the set, and is Heatran's only attacking move. It is used over Fire Blast, as the perfect accuracy and extra PP are appreciated on less offensive sets. Flamethrower can toast Steel-type Pokemon, and especially under the sun can do decent damage to others,especially under the sun, 3HKOing Blissey and Giratina and 2HKOing Lugia, assuming Stealth Rock is in play. Lava Plume is an alternative to Flamethrower, sacrificing the extra damage for a larger burn chance, which can be useful for halving a Pokemon's Attack stat and inflicting passive damage every turn. Protect is also an option to stack Leftovers recovery, as well as scout a Choice-locked Pokemon's attacks.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>The EV spread is straightforward: 252 HP ensures that Heatran is bulky and is capable of taking hits. 128 Speed allows Heatran to outspeed Base 90 Speed Pokemon with base 90 Speed and no Speed investment, such as Groudon, Giratina, and Deoxys-D. The remaining EVs are invested in Special Defense with a Calm nature, which lets letting Heatran take powerful Dragon-type attacks, which are usually special. Heatran can also take hits from Mewtwo and Darkrai with Special Defense investment. An Aura Sphere from a 252 SpA Mewtwo will do just over 50% damage to Heatran, and Heatran is never OHKOed by a Life Orb-boosted Focus Blast from Darkrai.</p>

    <p>Sun support from Groudon is a blessing for Heatran, as its Fire-type attacks gain a boost, and it loses its Water-type weakness. This will also ensure a Kyogre switch-in, allowing Heatran to cripple it with Toxic. As well as providing sun support, Groudon has access to Stealth Rock, and can take powerful physical hits for Heatran. Ferrothorn is also another great partner, laying Spikes, and walling Kyogre. A Ghost-type such as Giratina-O or Ghost Arceus is also advised, as it can cover Heatran's Fighting-type weakness, as well as block Rapid Spin.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Heatran is far less versatile in the Ubers environment, but other options are available. A Choice Specs set can be run, but Reshiram packs much more offensive power. The only reason to use Heatran instead of Reshiram is Heatran's typing, which gives it resistance to Dragon-type attacks and neutrality to Stealth Rock damage. A Choice Scarf set is viable as a revenge killer, thanks to Heatran's massive base 130 Special Attack, and its resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Terrakion is better usually a better option, however, as it is faster and does more damage to Extremekiller Arceus. A Life Orb can be used instead of Leftovers to pack an extra punch, but this is not recommended on a set with only one attack. Fire Blast can be used instead of Flamethrower or Lava Plume for a sizable power increase should you want to take down your enemies a little faster. Dragon Pulse is a very useable option, allowing Heatran to nail common Dragon-types that switch in, such as Palkia and Giratina. It can also be used to allow Heatran to pick off a Dragon-type such as Rayquaza locked into Outrage.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Anything that can exploit Heatran's gaping 4x Ground-type weakness makes a decent check to it. Pokemon such as Garchomp, Ho-Oh, and Groudon with a few Speed EVs can outspeed and OHKO Heatran with Earthquake. Giratina-O can also OHKO Heatran with Earthquake, even though it is a rare move to be seen on the legendary dragon. However, these Pokemon aren't a major problem for Heatran, as it can simply switch out of danger. Kyogre can counter Heatran absolutely, as it takes pathetic damage from Flamethrower, and—in the case of RestTalk variants—does not mind being poisoned. Kyogre also summons rain, which halves the power of Flamethrower. While rain is in play, Pokemon such as Manaphy and Palkia can OHKO Heatran with ease.</p>


    [​IMG]

    GP 2 / 2
  21. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,129
    uploaded

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)