Heatran [QC 3/4]

HP Rock should at least be mentionned on the Attacking Sets, netting a surprise KO on Talonflame, Charizard and Volcarona thinking that they would come and setup as they want is something that shouldn't be overlooked imo.

also dents Gyarados and Rotom H.
 
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HP Rock should at least be mentionned on the Attacking Sets, netting a surprise KO on Talonflame, Charizard and Volcarona thinking that they would come and setup as they want is something that shouldn't be overlooked imo.

also dents Gyarados and Rotom H.
Scarf has Stone Edge (which does more damage even uninvested) and SDef has Taunt to stop set up sweepers
 

Jukain

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Defensive Heatran should have 40 Speed EVs standard. It's silly for us to have 0 EVs on a Pokemon that basically always has Speed, and max Speed Mega Mawile is rather common regardless of what we're putting in the analysis. It's definitely a legitimate concern, as you don't want to be KOed with a +2 Knock Off before Heatran gets a chance to move, and the 40 EVs is not some enormous sacrifice. 200 EVs should be mentioned in SD as a large creep to hit 240 (it's more efficient than Timid + less EVs fwiw).
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
ALright so this needs some work.

1) Sdef has Earth Power nowhere. We discussed the slashing of Sdef's set a while ago and I think it looks good, but earth power needs a moves mention to hit opposing tran, and some rock types. It's silly, but it has its uses.

2) Sdef needs 40 Speed EVs. +2 252 spe Adamant Mega Mawile outspeeds and OHKOs Heatran with Brick Break or Knock Off, thats a serious flaw. 40 Speed also help you creep on Mega Scizor that think they can run a bit of speed to pop you with Knock off or Superpower

3) Scarf > Specs. Scarf is a pretty nifty revenge killer because it has so much bulk and all those resistances so it can even wall shit, unlike nearly every other scarfer, and it takes priority well while still hitting damn hard. Specs is OK but its not THAT hard at all to wall for defensive teams, or even for offensive teams to switch into (Latios, Dragonite, Rotom, Tyranitar, etc etc).

4) Taunt is in OO but its the primary slash on sdef. Also Power Herb Solarbeam and Balloon are missing from OO

Also, can we have a discussion on reinstating offensive balloon tran? With its Balloon up offensive tran is pretty good at checking a lot of shit, it still counters Talonflame and can switch into Mawile, it can set up SR, and its not THAT weak. A lot of its switch ins (terrakion, d-nite, tyranitar, etc) get fukt by will o wisp. Overall its a pretty bulky and strong SR user that can deal with some unique shit for offensive teams.
 
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Jukain

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fwiw I agree on adding Balloon Tran back

so i've talked about this set numerous times and i've seen it used effectively by certain players on the ladder, and saw danilo use it in ost. it's this:

SubToxic
########
name: SubToxic
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Earth Power
ability: Flash Fire
item: Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

subtran has always been rather effective since heatran forces many switches due to its offensive and defensive capabilities. this set allows heatran to effectively stall/pressure certain things, mostly water-types and char y/talonflame, that normal offensive heatran has trouble dealing with. it's difficult to deal with because it roasts steels that would normally laugh at other users of this strategy, and things that can switch into its offensive attacks don't enjoy a toxic, such as the lati twins and aforementioned char y. definitely an effective, threatening set in this metagame. (If there's better EVs tell me!)

add this set and make ash borer's changes, and i will stamp.
 
The overview's a bit sparse, you could add stuff like no recovery, make a general mention of its good bulk, support movepool, explain why its typing is so awesome.

Make sure you put the right information in the right places. Moves is where any information about other moves goes, Set Details is just for EVs, items, and abilities. And when you write it up/edit it, make sure to format the Checks and Counters.

I agree that you should mention the alternate speed spreads, and that Scarf should be before Specs. I'm indifferent towards BalloonTran, but a Substitute set is very good. You could expand Team Options and Usage Tips a bit for the Choice sets, but it's not especially important.

Tag me when you've done these and I'll stamp too.
 

ShootingStarmie

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Damn you nigs make me lol. I've talked with many people about Earth Power, and we spent ages agreeing that there isn't any room for it to get a main slash. I'm not going back and forth on Earth Power, so I'm not going to include it unless loads of people suddnely weigh in on this.

Added the 40 Speed EVs.

Again with Balloon Heatran, I'm sick of going back and forth on adding the removing the set. We talked about Balloon tran a ton, and we mainly agreed that it has little use in the metagame. Can we please stick to one thing and be done with it?

I've put Scarf above Specs.

I'm not adding Jukain's set until I speak to more people about it. I'll be on IRC all day today to hear everyone's opinions about it, because again I'm not going to write up the whole analysis for it only for you guys to tell me to take it down.

Updated the overview a little. Changed the format for the checks and counters.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Points of contention default to the writer's choice. In the case of Balloon Tran I was never aware of the discussion that took place in regards to offensive balloon tran, but if you dont want it then fine.

QC 1/4
 
The format of the EVs on the first set are wrong they should be reordered into "248 HP / 220 SDef / 40 Spd".
 
I think Heatran could make good use of an Assault Vest.
Not really. Bulky Assault Vest would be utter shit since it can't use any of its support moves. Offensive with AV would be ok, but Air Balloon is already so much better for switching into Pokemon such as Excadrill and that got rejected so...
 
I think Eruption deserves a mention on the Specs set. It might force one to run a Quiet nature, but the power, THE POWER. I'll post calcs when I get home.
 

Alter

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I think Eruption deserves a mention on the Specs set. It might force one to run a Quiet nature, but the power, THE POWER. I'll post calcs when I get home.
Eruption forces Heatran into running a Quiet nature because it is an event move. This means that the highest Speed stat that it can have is 227 - something terrible for a Pokemon that wants to be atttacking as quickly as possible to maximize Eruption's power. Moreover, Fire Blast outdamages Eruption after Heatran has taken ~28% damage, meaning that you're better off just using Fire Blast anyway. It doesn't deserve a spot/mention in the Specs set and OO is as far as it should go.
 
Eruption forces Heatran into running a Quiet nature because it is an event move. This means that the highest Speed stat that it can have is 227 - something terrible for a Pokemon that wants to be atttacking as quickly as possible to maximize Eruption's power. Moreover, Fire Blast outdamages Eruption after Heatran has taken ~28% damage, meaning that you're better off just using Fire Blast anyway. It doesn't deserve a spot/mention in the Specs set and OO is as far as it should go.
227 speed lets Heatran outspeed neutral uninvested base 95, which is most walls and would-be counters. Specs is meant to be used as a wall breaker anyway, so being outsped by certain pokemons isn't too much of a problem (in my opinion).

Comparing FB to Eruption (assuming 100% health, which is not too uncommon if you send it in early, or have hazard support + VoltTurn):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 310-366 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 228-268 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 173-204 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 127-150 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Notice that Heatran outspeeds standard Rotom-W (44 speed EVs)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 282-333 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 231-272 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 169-200 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Meaning Starmie can't spin away the rocks

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 161-189 (53.3 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Meaning that Latias has to choose between Defogging the rocks (and sacing herself) or switch

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 267-315 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 197-232 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Notice how these are all "counters" to Heatran. For cleaners like Keldeo, removing or very severly damaging these mons can be the difference between a sweep and a lost battle. Therefore, I don't think it's completely useless.
 
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227 speed lets Heatran outspeed neutral uninvested base 95, which is most walls and would-be counters. Specs is meant to be used as a wall breaker anyway, so being outsped by certain pokemons isn't too much of a problem (in my opinion).

Comparing FB to Eruption (assuming 100% health, which is not too uncommon if you send it in early, or have hazard support + VoltTurn):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 310-366 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 228-268 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 173-204 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 127-150 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Notice that Heatran outspeeds standard Rotom-W (44 speed EVs)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 282-333 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 231-272 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 169-200 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Meaning Starmie can't spin away the rocks

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 161-189 (53.3 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Meaning that Latias has to choose between Defogging the rocks (and sacing herself) or switch

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 267-315 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 197-232 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Notice how these are all "counters" to Heatran. For cleaners like Keldeo, removing or very severly damaging these mons can be the difference between a sweep and a lost battle. Therefore, I don't think it's completely useless.

Edit: Why can't I put the calcs in a spoiler tag '_'
The Spoiler tag is
Code:
[hide=Title Of Spoiler Tag]
Information in here
[/hide]
And It should look like this:
Information in here
 

Punchshroom

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Why is there so much mention of Jellicent in the analysis? Other relevant bulky Waters like Vaporeon, Quagsire, Slowbro, and Suicune, or bulky offensive Waters like Manaphy and Azumarill seem better to replace mentions of Jellicent.
Heatran can easily tank weak Water type attacks from Jellicent and other bulky Water types
Why is this mentioned? It's not like bulky Waters are exactly weak, Slowbro is arguably the only Pokemon I can think of that fits the description of "bulky Water that is not doing enough damage to Heatran", but it has Slack Off anyway. Vaporeon and Rotom-W can hurt Heatran pretty bad and the former has clerical moves to basically shrug off Heatran's moves, Quagsire EQs the shit out of you, Suicune and CM Manaphy can just boost up until they hit you hard enough....

Just because Heatran can take some of these Water attacks, doesn't mean it shouldn't turn tail and run if it fails to hit them with Toxic on the switch. That health is not easily regained.
 

CyclicCompound

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Alright, I'm going to go ahead and utilize some precedents set by SDS:
Note that this doesn't mean that QC is tasked with rewriting entire sets and laying out every specific of an analysis. If a set is missing, it can be added later or in a separate thread.
Larger changes can always be submitted via revamps, partial revamps, or new sets for an analysis, if a change needs more eyes on it.
We can move SubToxic to a separate, individual thread and discuss it there, as well as bullet point/write it up on that thread if it's eventually decided it should go on the analysis.

For now, this analysis should progress. It looks good, although the usage tips and team options for Scarf could be buffed up a little bit. Maybe elaborate a little bit more on specific teammates and/or strategies.

QC 4/4

EDIT: ShootingStarmie, if you have no qualms about including SubToxic, then please add it as a set. Most of the QC team supports its inclusion.
 
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Martin

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Something which I have been thinking about for the past few days is that, on paper at least, Heatran seems like a good user of Assault Vest as it has good natural bulk, good defensive typing and solid offensive stats. It also lets it invest a little more into its offensive stats and/or physical defense than the specially defensive set does, and it functions more like a tank rather than a sweeper (specs) or revenge killer/cleaner (scarf). I am still testing it properly, so atm it is just something to think about. The set I was thinking about was somewhere along the lines of this, but it can still be adapted a little as it is still 'in beta', if you know what I mean:

Assault Vest
########
name: Assault Vest
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Stone Edge / Overheat
ability: Flash Fire
item: Assault Vest
evs: [WIP]
nature: Modest

Fire Blast as there is no special attack drop to stop you being setup fodder. Flash Cannon is a secondary STAB move, hitting Azumarill and Terrakion harder than any other move. Earth Power is mainly there to hit opposing Heatran, which would otherwise completely wall Heatran. Finally, Stone Edge is nice to hit Megazard Y and Volcarona for guaranteed OHKOs, but Overheat can be used if Fire Blast's power isn't enough, as it is at times. Flamethrower for moves.

A few other things:
  • Adamant Mawile isn't a good benchmark to outpace as you outpace neutral 124 speed Mawile without any investment. Uninvested base 80s, such as Mega Venusaur are a far better benchmark to try and outpace. You need 28 EVs to do this. (the new spread is below. Just C/P that)
  • The stat ordering and abbreviation for speed is wrong on the specially defensive sets EV spread. Just copy and paste this: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe - note how I have changed the EV spread to fit with the new speed stat.
  • Lots of issues with the write up, such as ill-placed points (such as moves in set details, some of which are on the set as it is - although they shouldn't be in set details in the first place) and outdated points, like your mention of Jellicent which has since been deemed inviable - though I still use it in a core with Ferrothorn occasionally.
  • There is also an issue with the formatting for the paragraphs of OO and the sets other than specially defensive where there is text smaller than the headers.
Can't be bothered to see if there are any further issues. Any help with the AV set's EVs and testing is appreciated, but not at all required.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
shootingstarmie is not going to do this, and I think someone said they were going to take this up but never did so

can this be moved to locked/outdated and put up for reservation? Poor Heatran.
 

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