Doubles Heatran

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Taken over from Lagaagagagagag
QC Approval: [Nollan, Mizuhime, Lolkomori, Audiosurfer, Pwnemon]
GP Stamps: [Calm Pokemaster, Pwnemon (amcheck stamped by me :D)]


Overview
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Heatran's magnificent typing and ability combination allow it to counter a multitude of threats and gives it plenty of opportunities to apply offensive pressure. Its stats are also terrific, giving it power and enough bulk to survive even super effective attacks, such as Hydro Pump from Rotom-W. To top it all off, it has a great movepool and a lot of different options to use. It has powerful STAB spread moves in Heat Wave and Eruption as well as access to coverage moves such as Earth Power and Ancient Power. Unfortunately, its 4x weakness to Ground-type moves is very exploitable, and it's also weak to Water- and Fighting-type moves, which are both fairly common. It also lacks the key coverage types it needs in order to truly be able to beat most Water- and Dragon-types. Still, Heatran's unique traits make it a top-tier threat and a popular choice for many teams.

Substitute
########
name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Heat Wave
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Protect
ability: Flash Fire
item: Leftovers
evs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

This set lets Heatran take advantage of its resistances and immunities in order to set up a Substitute safely and then launch its powerful attacks. With a Substitute up, Heatran becomes even harder to take down, and it can immediately impose tremendous offensive pressure with its powerful attacks. Heat Wave is a very consistent STAB spread move and is easily spammable once a Substitute is up. Earth Power provides much-needed coverage against Rock- and Fire-types, especially opposing Heatran. Protect is a great move on any Doubles Pokemon, and it is very good to use alongside Substitute, giving Heatran the ability to protect itself against being double targeted as well as scout for dangerous attacks when its Substitute is down.

Set Details
========

76 Speed Heatran outspeeds 0 Speed Rotom-W and Cresselia, and the remainder of its EVs are invested in HP and Special Attack. A Modest nature is used to maximize power and because Heatran doesn't need any more Speed or bulk than the spread already provides. Leftovers is the best item choice, as it works well in tandem with Protect to help Heatran steadily replenish its health and use Substitute more. Flash Fire should be used as the ability as it lets Heatran wall threats such as Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y.

Usage Tips
========

This set's goal is to fire off as many powerful attacks as possible, using Substitute in order to protect itself from dangerous switch-ins. Thus, it is advised to take advantage of Heatran's resistances and immunities to switch in against Pokemon that it can easily force out, such as Amoonguss or Scizor. It can use the free turn as the opponent switches to set up a Substitute or use Heat Wave to get some damage done. From there, Heatran can continue to use Heat Wave and Protect accordingly, with Earth Power for the occasional Rock- or Fire-type. The combination of Protect and Substitute often helps Heatran avoid taking damage for significant amounts of time, as it can often recover health lost to Substitute by just alternating between Protect and an attacking move. If a check or counter switches in when Heatran does not have a Substitute up, just switch it out and send it back in later, gradually wearing down said check. Once all of Heatran's checks are taken down or weakened, it can effectively clean up the opposing team, utilizing Protect and Substitute to shield itself from status and revenge killing attempts. Do not let Heatran stay in against a Ground-type, unless Heatran has a Substitute up, as most fairly powerful Ground-type attacks can easily OHKO Heatran. Because of this, it is also often a good idea to use Protect against Pokemon such as Latios and Genesect to scout for Hidden Power Ground and other surprise Ground-type coverage attacks. Due to Heatran's numerous resistances and ability to recover gradually with Leftovers, it has no trouble switching out and switching back in, and it should thus be saved for later if an opponent still has a potentially dangerous threat that Heatran still needs to counter.

Team Options
========

For partners, Heatran seeks Pokemon that can remove its checks and counters quickly so that it can begin to clean up the opposing team. Grass-types enjoy Heatran's ability to tackle Fire-types and Talonflame and can remove Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types in return. Shaymin-S, Amoonguss, and Venusaur are prime examples, all of which can take Water- and Fighting-type attacks for Heatran. Ludicolo can also help sponge Water-type attacks, but cannot take too many Fighting-type attacks. Follow Me / Rage Powder Pokemon can redirect attacks and give Heatran openings to set up. Togekiss gets a special mention for beating Fighting-types as well. Water-types beat Ground-types and can hit airborne Fire-types that wall Heatran. Rotom-W is great, as it can burn Fighting-types and pummel opposing Fire-types with Hydro Pump. It also keeps Landorus-T and other Earthquake users away. Thundurus is a great partner, as it can support Heatran with priority Taunt, Thunder Wave, and Tailwind, preventing the opponent's Pokemon from using Taunt and Wide Guard. Heatran is great at removing Steel-types, which can open up sweeps for offensive teammates such as Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir, and Scizor, making them great partners as well. Fairy-types can also return the favor by keeping Dragon-types away or removing them completely. Gardevoir and Latios form great offensive cores with Heatran, as they lure in Steel-types for Heatran to set up Substitute on. Latios also disposes of Garchomp and can set up a Tailwind for Heatran to function better. Hitmontop is also a possible option for offensive support. Its Intimidate, Wide Guard, and Fake Out support greatly help Heatran fulfill its role. It also has Feint, which hits through opposing Wide Guard, letting Heatran more reliably use Heat Wave. Icy Wind or Trick Room Cresselia is a great partner too. Icy Wind provides Speed control for Heatran and also hits Ground-types fairly hard, while Trick Room support helps minimum Speed Heatran by helping it outpace most Ground-types and other faster threats. Also, Cresselia can pass Heatran its Levitate with Skill Swap, alleviating the latter's greatest weakness.

ErupTran
########
name: ErupTran
move 1: Eruption
move 2: Heat Wave / Fire Blast
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Protect
ability: Flash Fire
item: Charcoal / Shuca Berry
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
nature: Quiet

Moves
========

With this set, Heatran takes advantage of its super powerful Eruption to deal heavy damage to its opponents. Eruption is extremely powerful; when Heatran is at full health, it hits 270 Base Power after STAB and the Charcoal boost, and it is also a spread move. Heat Wave is there as a backup STAB spread move, being more powerful than Eruption after Heatran's HP dips below 64%. Fire Blast can be used instead of Heat Wave as a great single-target option to hit Wide Guard opponents. Earth Power is for coverage against Fire- and Rock-types that resist Eruption. Protect is great for scouting and messing up offensive strategies.

Set Details
========

Heatran's Speed stat is minimized, as this set should be used with Trick Room support. However, it can be run with 31 Speed IVs so that it can maintain some leverage outside of Trick Room. Maximum Special Attack investment makes Heatran as powerful as possible, and full HP investment gives it solid mixed bulk. Charcoal is the best item here, as it boosts the power of Eruption while still letting Heatran use its other moves. A Shuca Berry can also be used to allow Heatran to sponge one Ground-type attack if Heatran does not have sufficient team support against opposing Ground-type attacks. A Sitrus Berry can be used to recover HP quickly and at the same time replenish Eruption's power, but on average Charcoal is better because its boost makes up for the power loss. Leftovers can also be used for this, but are slower at doing so than Sitrus Berry.

Usage Tips
========

Eruption is the main move to utilize on this set. It's so powerful when Heatran is at maximum health that it hits even resistant opponents harder than Earth Power does, so it should be what Heatran uses most of the time. After taking damage, Heatran becomes far less powerful, so it is important to keep it healthy so it can spam Eruption over the course of the match. Do not use Eruption and Heat Wave against an obvious Wide Guard user such as Hitmontop unless Heatran is supported by a Feint user that can remove the protection. Once Heatran loses more than 36% of its health, Heat Wave will become more powerful than Eruption and should be used instead.

Team Options
========

Trick Room setters are pretty much mandatory partners unless other forms of Speed control are provided. Cresselia, Gourgeist-S, and Trevenant get their own mentions here. Cresselia is a great supporter for Heatran, as it can both set up Trick Room and support Heatran's spread moves with Helping Hand. Cresselia also has Skill Swap, which can be used to pass Heatran its Levitate and give it an immunity to Ground, at least until Heatran switches out. It is also immune to Ground-type attacks and can easily switch in to take them. Trevenant also has great synergy with Heatran, as it OHKOes Rotom-W and burns threatening Fighting- and Ground-types. It can even use Will-O-Wisp on Heatran to activate Flash Fire and boost the power of Eruption. Trevenant and other Grass-types also enjoy Heatran's ability to tank Fire-type attacks and wall Talonflame, and can even carry Sunny Day to power up Heatran's attacks. Tailwind can also be used to support Heatran; 24 Speed EVs are all Heatran needs to outspeed maximum Speed Thundurus at +2. Latios is a great partner for this, as it can also remove opposing Dragon-types that wall Heatran. Other forms of Speed control that Heatran would enjoy include Thunder Wave support, which can be provided by Pokemon such as Thundurus, which also has Taunt and priority on its status moves. Hitmontop is also a great partner for Heatran, as it provides Intimidate, Helping Hand, and Fake Out support as well as Feint support to remove opposing Wide Guard. Water-types help beat Ground- and Rock-types as well as airborne Fire-types that wall Heatran. Examples include Jellicent, which can support Heatran with Trick Room, and Suicune, which has access to Tailwind. They also bait in Grass-types for Heatran to take down.

Attacker
########
name: Attacker
move 1: Heat Wave / Fire Blast
move 2: Earth Power / Stone Edge
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Flash Cannon / Stone Edge
move 4: Protect
ability: Flash Fire
item: Shuca Berry
evs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
========

With this set, Heatran's main goal is to continuously launch an onslaught of attacks at the opponent. Heat Wave is a spread STAB attack that can readily rip apart unprepared teams. Fire Blast can be used for its greater power, but has slightly less accuracy in comparison to Heat Wave and cannot hit both targets. In the second slot, Earth Power is used to hit Rock-types and Fire-types that resist Heatran's Fire-type STAB attack. Stone Edge can also be used to nail Fire-types such as Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y. Ancient Power is another option to hit airborne Fire-types, but it is less likely to OHKO Mega Charizard Y even with the Modest nature. Hidden Power Ice surprises Ground-type switch-ins such as Landorus-T and Garchomp and also hits Dragon-types hard. Flash Cannon is a secondary STAB attack that can also be used in the third slot to hit Dragon- and Rock-types, and it also hits Fairy-types super effectively. If Earth Power is needed, Stone Edge can also be used in the third slot.

Set Details
========

A Modest nature and 200 Speed EVs allow Heatran to outspeed neutral-natured maximum 252 Speed Adamant Bisharp and below, also covering threats such as Rotom-W and Cresselia. Timid can also be used with the same spread in order to outpace Jolly Breloom and below, at the cost of some power. 252 Special Attack EVs make Heatran as powerful as possible, and the rest of the EVs are put into HP for bulk. An alternate spread of 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe with a Modest nature can work as well for maximum power, some more bulk, and the ability to still outspeed Rotom-W and Cresselia, if it is not important for Heatran to outspeed invested base 70 Speed Pokemon. A Shuca Berry is used to guard against Earthquakes from the likes of Landorus-T and Garchomp, helping Heatran effectively lure them in for the surprise OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. It also guards Heatran from surprise Ground-type coverage moves such as Hidden Power Ground. A Sitrus Berry can be used for recovery. Charcoal could also work to boost the power of Heatran's Fire-type attacks. Finally, Life Orb can be used to boost the power of Heatran's attacks significantly at the cost of some health.

Usage Tips
========

What this set lacks in power or setup utility, it makes up for with coverage. With coverage, Heatran becomes incredibly difficult to wall, especially seeing as its attacks are backed by such a high Special Attack stat. Heatran can also try to feign a Substitute or Eruption set to lure in counters and KO them. Most of the time, Heatran should fire off Heat Wave or Fire Blast to deal steady damage. The Shuca Berry will guard Heatran against one Ground-type attack, so Heatran can lure in Ground-types, absorb their attack, and KO them with Hidden Power Ice. Do not reveal Heatran's coverage moves unless absolutely necessary, as they should be used to surprise the opponent and take down its typical walls. Do not be afraid to let Heatran sponge a few hits; it lasts a long time and can switch out and come back if necessary.

Team Options
========

Heatran greatly appreciates support from any Pokemon that can eliminate Pokemon it can't get past. Grass-types are great partners to tackle the Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types that Heatran can't muscle past. These include Shaymin-S, Amoonguss, and Breloom, the first of which can also take down Fighting-types, and the last two of which can support Heatran with Spore. This Heatran set eats up Steel-types, so anything walled by them appreciates the defensive opening created. Fairy-types in particular are great partners, especially Mega Gardevoir, which can help Heatran muscle past specially defensive Pokemon and also remove Fighting-types. Mega Charizard Y provides Drought to boost Heatran's Fire-type STAB attacks. Psychic-, Flying-, and Fairy-types are all useful as they remove Fighting-type threats. Defensively, Wide Guard is this set's best friend. Without Substitute and Eruption to deter Ground-types, this set is more susceptible to Earthquake, which Wide Guard protects against. Wide Guard also protects against Muddy Water, another attack that hits Heatran hard. Speed control support is also really helpful for this set, and Trick Room support can be paired with minimal Speed Heatran. Cresselia is great as it can set Trick Room, use Helping Hand, and set up dual screens. Tailwind is also beneficial. Partners such as Suicune, Talonflame, and Latias can provide this support. Fake Out support can stun Ground-types so Heatran can take them out with Hidden Power Ice. Intimidate support weakens opponents and makes Heatran "bulkier". Hitmontop is a great partner as it provides Wide Guard, Fake Out, and Intimidate support.

Other Options
########

Heatran can also use Hidden Power Grass to hit Water-types for more damage. A utility set with Will-O-Wisp and Taunt can be used to great effect. A Shuca or Chople Berry on the Substitute and Eruption sets can be used to help Heatran shrug off super effective attacks temporarily. Choice Specs can be utilized for even more impressive power, but is quite risky and easy to punish with smart switches. Similarly, a Choice Scarf can be used to outspeed opponents and hit them hard. A Sitrus Berry can be used to recover Heatran's health quickly. Air Balloon can also be used instead of a Shuca Berry to give Heatran a temporary immunity to Ground.

Checks & Counters
########
**Offensive Typing Advantage**: Ground-types such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Gastrodon can just OHKO Heatran. However, those that don't resist its Fire-type STAB attacks must watch out when they switch in lest they take a load of damage. Hidden Power Ground can be used on a multitude of special attackers to surprise and take down Heatran. Other Heatran can threaten with a Speed tie if your own Heatran doesn't have a Substitute up and possibly force your own to flee. Fighting-types are also threatening as many are bulky enough to sponge attacks, and some even have priority Mach Punch to bypass speed control support.

**Rain Teams**: Politoed and other rain setters are Heatran's biggest enemy, halving the power of its Fire-type STAB attacks. The Water-types that are common on rain teams also give Heatran a lot of trouble, taking very little damage from its attacks and easily taking it down with rain-boosted super effective Water-type attacks. Notable examples of these include Ludicolo, Rotom-W, Gyarados, and Keldeo.

**Utility**: Taunt prevents Heatran from using Substitute, Encore locks Heatran into it, and Wide Guard blocks Heat Wave. Perish Song forces Heatran out, even if it has a Substitute up.

**Assault Vest Pokemon**: Pokemon such as Assault Vest Goodra, Ludicolo, Scrafty, and Conkeldurr can easily sponge Heatran's attacks and chip away at its health with STAB attacks and coverage moves.
 
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Overview:
  • The first bullet is just fluff, you can add that it is a top-tier threat to the end of another point if you want.
  • Mention in here also how useful a STAB Heat Wave is in the metagame.
Set:
  • Spe
Moves:
  • Protect also stalls out field conditions such as Trick Room, Tailwind, and Rain that hurt Heatran's performance.
Set Details:
  • Add Shuca Berry to lure in and hurt faster Heatran as well as Ground-types such as Excadrill and Landorus-T, as opposed to forcing them out with Air Balloon.
  • Add Fire Blast as an option over Heat Wave here to hit way harder as well as bypassing Wide Guard.
  • Mention that the Speed EVs are for 0 Speed Rotom-W and Cresselia.
Team Options:
  • Add Togekiss to Fairy-type partners and add that it can help Heatran set up Substitute easier with Follow Me support as well as redirecting and sponging Fighting- and Water-type attacks.
Other Options:
  • Take out Fire Blast from here.
  • Mention that Eruption should only be used in Trick Room or with a Choice Scarf
  • No Charcoal that;s dumm
Checks & Counters
  • Change the ground-types tab to **Ground-type Coverage** and add that special attackers such as Latios and offensive Cresselia can easily surprise Heatran with HP Ground.
  • Take out Blissey and Chansey now pls
  • Add Keldeo and combine water and fighting types into and **Offensive Advantage** because both are too tiny rn.
  • Add that Dragon / Flying types wall it to that tab also.
  • Add Perish Song to Utility because it can stop Heatran even through Substitute.
  • Politoed sets up Rain weakening Heatran' STAB, threatening it with a super effective Water-type attack, and boasting Encore and Perish song to mess it up behind Substitute
Do these and i will stamp. Also since we obviously have time, you will just do this analysis with the normal QC procedure. Pwne just tricked users into reserving skellys so we could get these done trololol.
 

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
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OK BIG CHANGES SINCE LAST TIME

I took over Laga's skeleton with his agreement and implemented the two checks that were given to it like a month ago. Added Nollan and Mizuhime 's QC checks.

I added Audiosurfer 's Attacker set, which is still up for discussion.

Made a few tweaks here or there.


This is ready for its final QC check before writeup! (or possibly more since it's been a while)

Things to address:
-ATTACKER SET
-Team Options coverage
-Specific spread / set tweaks
 
Overview:
  • To your Ground-type weakness point, add that Fighting- and Water-type attackers are both pretty common as well in Doubles
  • Don't say it needs speed control to perform well, because it dgaf, unless you specify the Eruptran set (but you should probably just put that in team options of that set.
Substitute Set:

Moves:
  • Heatran doesn't need to have Substitute up to spam Heat Waves; it is just nice to use when the opp is literally helpless against it.
  • Move Fire Blast to Set Details because it is not slashed in the set.
Set Details:
  • Charcoal in OO. Lefties, Air Balloon, or Shuca is just too good to pass up.
  • Mention why Flash Fire is so good.
Usage Tips:
  • Heatran doesn't have to set up sub before attacking, it works fine just spamming heat wave. Shorten the first bullet into "Heatran can switch in and out easily due to its bulk and great defensive typing." and then talk about how it should set up substitutes against helpless opponents, allowing Heatran to kick ass against even some counters.
  • It can stay in on a Ground-type attack if it is behind a sub :p
Team Options:
  • Add to Hitmontop that Feint lets Heatran hit through Wide Guard.
  • Name specific Water- and Grass-type teammates.
  • Add teammates that like Steel-types gone in the last bullet, such as Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir, and Scizor.
Set 2

Moves:
  • It's Fire Blast not Flamethrower.
Set Details:
  • Sitrus Berry could work so Heatran can take a hit and immediately be back in Eruption spam range.
  • Max Speed + Scarf is doable as a lategame sweeper, but max speed alone is still outsped by too much to be viable.
Team Options:
  • Add Gourgeist to TR partners.
Set 3:
  • I don't think leftovers is the best item here. This guy has way less survivability than subtran, so Sitrus is a reliable first slash. For the second slash, Life Orb always works for an all-out attacker set, but Shuca+HP Ice makes a fantastic Garchomp and Landorus-T lure. Whichever one you don't pick for the second slash put it in Set Comments tho.
Moves:
  • Protect does more than that :p
Set Details:
  • Also outspeeds Cress
Team Options:
  • I see this set loving Tailwind support. Suicune, Togekiss, and Latias are cool partners.
  • Charizard-Y boosts its STAB.
  • List specific Fighting-type killers here too.
Other Options:
  • For each of these, list what sets could use them as other options, because some sets already use certain options.
Checks & Counters:
  • Assault Vest Pokemon such as Goodra, Ludicolo, Conkeldurr, and Scrafty have an easy time playing around Heatran.
  • Mach Punch is a great way to weaken Heatran in Trick Room (weakening Eruption), Tailwind, or for revenge killing purposes.
  • No chansey/blissey pls
 
they play differently, as seen in the usage tips, and i changed the item in the last check
Aside from the third set not having Substitute, how? Use great resistances / bulk to switch in or soak attacks, hit with a STAB move when possible, switch out against Ground-types. I think they are similar enough to be merged and to just talk about the different usage in Usage Tips.
 

Electrolyte

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The Attacker set is supposed to be a lot more offensively natured and geared towards the removal of certain threats (hence the Shuca Berry + Hidden Power Ice + loads of coverage) Its main draw is that few people expect more than just Fire- and Ground-type STAB from Heatran, so pulling out those coverage moves helps it snatch some good kills

Anyway, Lolk's changes were all implemented. I didn't count it as a check because no stamp was given (I think, unless it was implied) and even if there was a check, still highlighting Audiosurfer to look at that third set to make sure it matches what he was considering. We decided on IRC that Shuca Berry is the best item on Attacker set.

Ready for final check!
 
Last edited:
In the usage tips for eruptran, mention 1) set up trick room 2)spam eruption. Ik its obvious but they need to know :0

also in set comments of the all out attacker sitrus>leftovers and shuca also saves heatran from surprise HP grounds

you don't need the defensive typing advantages tab because you already mention dragons in offensive typing advantages

QC 2.5/3 write it up!
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
check:

Overview
  • Heatran isn't used to "check" things except maybe gene, it's more that it's a threatening offensive pokemon that gets switchin opportunities on the listed types
Set 1:
  • "heatran's best set" is unnecessary and perhaps false, but it is the most common
  • shuca berry and full trick room are not things that subtran does, and i'd argue that even full tr tran is a dumbass if it runs 0 spe ivs
  • also no fire blast
  • HO BOY USAGE TIPS
    • Switch in on Pokemon that cannot properly threaten Heatran, such as Amoonguss, Scizor, Genesect, etc.
    • Use substitute as they switch to heatran checks, or else just heat wave as they switch, if you know they have no checks that would rather be Earth Powered
    • Proceed to damage your checks and switch out
    • Once all SubTran checks are cleared out, it makes an effective cleanup wall, immune to status and able to stall out attempts to chip it with sub + protect
    • Don't try to clean before its counters are eliminated—if they have out a +2 scizor with a jellicent in back, don't get cute, just fucking heat wave
  • hitmontop is not tran's favorite partner. tran wants things that eliminate tran counters—like bulky waters, Rotom-H, dragons (esp chomp). I'd much rather partner SubTran with Amoonguss or Ludicolo than most of the partners you listed (fairies excepted; they do make good tran setup lures and have good offensive synergy)
  • In general subtran wants offensive help, not defensive
Set 2:
  • no 0 spe iv, just mention that if you're running a full tr with no fastmode that's an option in set comments
  • slash shuca, perhaps even in front of charcoal, and discuss it in SC
  • sitrus berry is bad on eruptran typically. 75% non-charcoal eruption is less powerful than charcoal heat wave
  • remove mentions of max spe and scarf
  • instead of "this set relies on trick room...partner sets trick room back up" just say something like "heatran is far less threatening after it takes a hit, so if your opponent is weak to eruption spam, make sure you keep heatran out of harm's way with switches and protect"
  • trick room is hardly MANDATORY; you can also use tailwind! 24 spe evs is all you need to outrun 252+ Thundurus at +2 and 0 Top at +0. Tran does need some sort of speed help tho
  • >mentioning cress without mentioning skill swep
  • dont forget when discussing tree (and other ghosts) that they can boost tran's output with both wow and (in the grass's cases) sunny day
  • I'd rather use top than scrafty with eruptran bc helping hand, feint
  • taunt support is a super minor thing with eruptran, i'd not pair thundurus-i with it except if i were using them outside of tr and wanting to spread para; if youre going to keep thund-i absolutely mention para
  • with water types mention specifically jelli and cune for their speed control
Set 3:
  • id go timid with enough spe to beat max+ loom tbh
  • Earth Power + HP Ice and AncientPower + Flash Cannon are pairs more or less; i'd slash like this. Flash Cannon + HP Ice should never be used but your slashes give the impression that they're a team.
  • dont mention badloon in SC
  • you're way overselling attacker tran as some sort of luretran set in usage tips. that's not what it is. it simply is an attacker.
  • the fact that you hardly even touched on offensive synergy in teammates makes me deeply uncomfortable
OO:
  • this is a good place for air balloon and sitrus
  • never use flash cannon or ancientpower on the first two sets
C&C:
  • remove mentions of gastrodon unless you want people to think it's not shit (its shit)
  • bloontran is shit, just mention how if a tran switches in on u with no sub up its a game of fucking chicken
  • "dragons with eq like mence and dnite" wat wat wat wat wat
  • rain deserves its own damn bullet in checks and counters
 
Last edited:

Electrolyte

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Ok, Pwnemon I implemented all of your changes.

The analysis is quite a bit different now (especially Checks and Counters, which I rearranged) so it would be great if I could have one final approval before I move this to GP.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
The only problems I saw were in set 3
  • Remove all mention of surf ever
  • You mention fire blast's acc but it's only five lower than heat wave? The only draw back is the mono target
  • The slashes are still weird, I think you misinterpreted what I said. Possible Heatran coverage options are: EP + HP Ice, EP + AncientPower, EP + Flash Cannon, AncientPower + Flash Cannon. I'd probably slash it as such
Tran
- Heat Wave / Fire Blast
- Earth Power / AncientPower
- HP Ice / Flash Cannon / AncientPower

Maybe explaining the proper combinations in the analysis

QC 3/3 Good Job!
 
Mention the large amount of recovery that sub+protect offers.

In set details of the all out attacker set, specify min or max rotomw and cress since you mention them twice for two different speed ev spreads.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
That was awkwardly worded but what he meant was:

200 spe is used to beat loom, also it covers stuff like cress and rotom. If you only care about the latter and not loom, just use 76 spe instead
 

Audiosurfer

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Electrolyte just wanted to say to use Stone Edge > Ancientpower on Heatran. It does more damage to Charizard-Y than Ancientpower even with an attack reducing nature so it's worth listing over Ancientpower. More on that here. Also slash Modest in front of Timid, not many are using Jolly Bisharp so it makes sense to have more power. Timid is still good tho so keep it slashed.
 

Electrolyte

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Stone Edge replaced Ancient Power.

Modest was slashed in front of Timid. I will add an explanation after I play around with EVs a bit to see what it does / doesn't outspeed at that range. If Modest is better, could there possibly be a better spread with less Speed since you lose against most relevant threats without Timid anyway?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
The two bit speed benchmarks for middling mons in doubles are min rotom-w and max+ breloom: if you go modest then just run 76 spe. But i really think you'd want to be able to outspeed loom.
 

Audiosurfer

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The two bit speed benchmarks for middling mons in doubles are min rotom-w and max+ breloom: if you go modest then just run 76 spe. But i really think you'd want to be able to outspeed loom.
nah dude this is gen 6, not 5. breloom is only slightly less relevant because of sleep being freed but still irrelevant. bisharp however is everywhere, so opting to only outspeed adamant bisharp given that it's the most popular nature is a more than reasonable thing imo.
 

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