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Heatran (Substitute) [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Tomahawk, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Nidoqueen is good in Ubers!
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    [​IMG]

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Heatran is a Pokemon that can force out many different Pokemon with its high Special Attack and useful resistances, and this set aims to make use of those free turns to set up a Substitute. This lets it take down switch-ins that can outspeed and KO it, such as Terrakion and Landorus, without relying on guesswork. Substitute also makes Heatran harder to revenge kill, as Pokemon have to break its Substitute without being OHKOed by any of its attacks. Substitute along with Toxic allows Heatran to cripple common switch-ins to Heatran that would otherwise easily wall it, including Jellicent, Rotom-W, and Dragonite. Using Substitute makes the opponent take another round of Toxic damage, and after a few turns, either Fire Blast or Earth Power can 2HKO. Heatran also makes for a good Toxic user in general, as it is able to take down most Steel- and Poison-types with STAB Fire Blast or Earth Power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature enable Heatran to outrun standard Gyarados and Dragonite and take them down with a combination of Toxic and Substitute. Maximum Special Attack makes Heatran as threatening as possible, but a bulkier spread can also work. If you decide to use such a spread, you should shift some Special Attack EVs—not Speed EVs—into HP or Special Defense, as the ability to outrun Gyarados and Dragonite and to Speed tie with other Heatran is extremely vital to this set's success. Roar can replace Toxic on Spikes-stacking teams, as the entry hazard damage can pile up quickly, but the ability to cripple common switch-ins is usually preferred. Will-O-Wisp is another option in the last slot as it halves the Attack of Dragonite and Gyarados, but Toxic is mostly superior as it can't be stalled out with Recover or Roost, as well as having superior accuracy.</p>

    <p>Because two of the most common switch-ins to Heatran—Politoed and Tyranitar—are weather starters and are worn down by Toxic, this set functions excellently on sand and sun teams as it greatly helps with winning the weather war. Thanks to Substitute and its decent Speed, Heatran can easily Toxic stall both Tyranitar and Politoed, enabling your own weather starter to have complete control. Heatran also pairs well with Pokemon that appreciate bulky Water-types being poisoned, such as Dragonite. Dragon Dance Dragonite is able to set up on poisoned Water-types, while Toxic wears them down and puts them range of being KOed by Outrage or Dragon Claw. It's worth noting that there are two Water-types that don't mind Toxic, namely Starmie and Hydration Vaporeon. Therefore, a teammate that can deal with those Pokemon, such as Rotom-W or Ferrothorn, makes for an excellent choice.</p>
  2. Ojama

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    HP Ice over Toxic is a great option since you can destroy Nite / Gliscor. Another thing that you could add is Air Balloon cause it allows you to use substitute easily against Subtoxic Gliscor for example.
  3. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Then it just becomes the Magma Storm set already on site (if you slash Magma Storm, Substitute, Earthpower and Toxic are all main slashes on the Magma Storm set as well, and the EVs are the same making this set totally redundant if you do that).

    Similar problem, that if you put HP Ice over Toxic then it just becomes offensive Heatran with Subtitute instead of Stealth Rock. Substitute is already mentioned in the AC of the Offensive Heatran set so that'd completely defeat the purpose of this analysis as well.

    No, what really sets this apart is the idea of running Toxic on an offensive Heatran without trapping (though this does make me wonder if it's not outclassed by Magma Storm trapping Heatran or not). The idea of using Toxic and Substitute to weaken and defeat Heatran's usual counters is a very novel idea. I do see it having issues with health getting low from subbing repeatedly though; maybe mention a wish passer as a teammate so it can do it more than once if need be (Heatran in general likes wish passing thanks to its lack of recovery). I'm curious to try this out for myself now, it has some real potential I think. Air Balloon is worth a mention as it makes getting a Sub up easier, allowing you to beat your counters that much more easily.
  4. Knight of Cydonia

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    Well I'm glad to see a set with Substitute on it that has actual thought put into it instead of the usual "I'll just throw Substitute on this poke and call it a day". Mention opposing Air Balloon Heatran as the best counter.
  5. Nachos

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    I've used this previously and I prefer it over Balloon Tran if I wanna go offensive. What makes this stand out is that it gives stuff like Rotom-W and Politoed trouble, and like as you said, without relying on guesswork at all. Gliscor is a massive dick though if they're running loads of Speed EVs and Protect. You should make a note that Earth Power is pretty weak due to a lack of LO and a Modest nature. You won't be doing much to an SDef TTar iirc, probably around 22%~ A mention of how this annoys Dugtrio on Sun teams wouldn't be too bad either.

    This set basically guaranteed a Toxic on their Politoed/Rotom-W/Tyranitar/whatever due to nobody knowing what it did, and that makes it an excellent set on Sand/Sun teams. I suppose this being released to the public kinda negates the surprise factor, but it's definitely a good set and should be up on site.
  6. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

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    Gyarados is a pretty hard counter here, especially the DD set because it can taunt and setup and then KO with Waterfall. I see it as any flying type with decent bulk and/or resistance to fire can probably wall this thing, however they must be wary of Toxic. Faster subbers can also cause problems, such as SubCM Latias.
    Also, I don't really see the point of Magma Storm, as most of the time the opponent switches to something that walls Heatran before it can trap pokes.
    Other than that, this set seems pretty useful. Other options, such as SR or Roar, can be used over (preferably) Earth Power (because Substitute and Toxic are necessary, and because Fire Blast is a stabler option)
    Good work!
    (and since when did Turk get a mustache? XD)
  7. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
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    @Dragontongue - Gliscor is not a counter.
    Fire Blast: (70.33 - 83.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  8. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

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    It can revenge kill, and counter if it can catch a Heatran unSubbed. A common situation would be when it's following a Volt Switching Rotom W or something like that. It's situtational, but whatever. If it gets burned on the switch however, it becomes dead weight.
  9. Knight of Cydonia

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    Ok, first of all who keeps their Heatran in on a Rotom-W?
    The normal definition of a counter is a Pokemon that can safely switch into any of another pokemon's moves. Switching in and getting mauled by Fire Blast is not countering. Revenge killing is not countering either.
  10. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

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    it's actually a 72 percent chance factoring accuracy, and the above scenario was just an example, but whatever.
    maybe the Gliscor thing may not be a solid counter but everything else I said still holds it's ground.
  11. Juanca529

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    i have run that set but instead with hp grass...you could add this to the other options list or slash hp grass and ice, ice for dragons and flyings and hp grass for gastrodon,rotom-w etc (IF under a sub) and u could say that the optiions is depending wut ur team needs to counter the most
  12. Vvamp6

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    Fire blast should be replaced if your attempting to stall anything. Flamethrower over lava plume, so it won't conjunct burn with toxic statuses. As for counter I see hydration vaporeon coming in on anything taking meager damage from Earth Power.
  13. Superpowerdude

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    hmmmmmmm interasting i run a similar heatran used to lure in Bulky waters and toxic them i like the idea of substitute alot what about these evs though? 56 hp / 252 spa/ 200 spe. lets it Out speed jolly breloom and have a little more bulk. also Willo wisp should be mentoined as an alternative of toxic because it can lure in Fighting types and cripple them. although guts Conkledurrs would still be a problem
  14. Dice

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    Ziah was the player who created this set, and this set is just amazing. Being able to cripple bulky waters and common switch ins like SpDef Hippo is amazing.
  15. jc104

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    You do realise that this set was pretty common in gen 4 right? No way did anyone "create" this set recently. I'm finding it difficult to believe that it wasn't already in the analysis.

    Anyway, it's a great set, but it might be nice to see a bulkier spread in AC, since a lot of the time you won't be attacking directly.
  16. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Nidoqueen is good in Ubers!
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    Thanks for the input everyone. Magma Storm and Hidden Power Ice I have not included for the reasons mentioned. Will-O-Wisp I have added in AC since it is mostly inferior to Toxic since Jellicent and other bulky Waters don't care about it at all, and it has lower accuracy and kills slower as well.
  17. X5Dragon

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    Assuming that both of them hit, you won't outspeed most Gliscors out there or survive an EQ, he counts as a counter especially because of poison heal.
  18. Lee

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  19. Knight of Cydonia

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    @X5Dragon
    Ok, here's the scenario with Gliscor supposedly acting as a counter. Heatran puts up a sub as Gliscor switches in. If it is a defensive Gliscor running 72 speed evs you outspeed it and hit it with fire blast as earthquake breaks your sub. Even if it protects next turn, it still won't survive the next fire blast. The second main scenario is facing acrobat. It outspeeds Heatran and breaks the sub and with stealth rock you have a 87.5% chance of KOing with fire blast. The third scenario is facing a non-standard set with 252 HP and at least 212 speed evs with a neutral nature. In this case you see it breaks your sub first and that fire blast didn't KO, so you obviously switch out, and Gliscor has taken a minimum of 57.8% damage factoring in poison heal for sort of countering you. Finally, if you are hoping for a fire blast miss it doesn't really help the case for calling it a counter.
    I understand that if it one vs one and Heatran does not have a substitute it will lose. However, countering is about switching in safely, not about the outcome when you come in after a KO or similar. I apologise if I sound angry/moody, it is not my intention, I can't convey tone through typing.
  20. Bloo

    Bloo
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    Most things were already pointed out here, but I'll reiterate some points regardless because I like ranting.

    The main thing I like about this variant of Heatran is its ability to wear down two of its most common switch-ins, which also happen to be the two main weather inducers in OU: Politoed and Tyranitar. As we all know, weather is huge in OU, and Heatran's ability to wear those two down through Toxic damage and potentially help you win a weather war is extremely helpful, especially in this metagame. It's also worth noting that a lot of Tyranitar run Crunch, Pursuit, SR, and Fire Blast, meaning that it can't touch Heatran, further allowing you to wear it down and force a switch, putting the game in your advantage and control at that point.

    Another aspect of this set that I love is its ability to minimize prediction by using Substitute to mess with switch ins like Terrakion. Terrakion came in as you used Sub? Now it'll have to deal with an Earth Power to the face, which will do plenty of damage, especially if said Terrakion decides to use Close Combat to break the Sub. This set shines on sun teams especially, since Heatran itself benefits from the power boost, while being able to, as said before, wear down other weather inducers, potentially helping you win a weather war. It also messes with Dugtrio, assuming you have a Sub up and SR is up to deactivate Dugtrio's sash. It even messes with opposing Heatran that try to absorb a Fire Blast, only to met with a Sub and the decision of "Damn, do I want to take an Earth Power or do I want to switch out?" Speaking of switching, this set forces a hell of a lot of switches, which is amazing when paired together with hazards.

    Aside from that, bulky waters, namely Rotom-W, Jellicent, etc, will have to deal with being crippled and worn down by Toxic, and even Dragons like Latios and Dragonite will not enjoy being poisoned. When those things are poisoned, you open up holes for another Pokemon to take advantage of. The waters that don't mind being poisoned, though, are Starmie and Hydration Vaporeon, both of which should receive a mention in the OP.

    Basically, this thing can effectively lure in and wear down its usual counters is great, and this can be used to great effect on sand / sun teams (even hail teams if need be), helping you wear down other weather inducers with the aim of winning the weather war. This is different enough from the Magma Storm trapper to warrant an entirely different write-up. Keep the set as-is. Slashing HP Ice / Grass / Magma Storm detracts from the purpose this Heatran serves, and also makes it too similar to the offensive Heatran already on-site, so don't do that. When you're writing the actual analysis, please make sure to emphasize its strengths, which were discussed above.

    Consider this approved by me!
  21. Iconic

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    QC Approved 2/3
  22. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Nidoqueen is good in Ubers!
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    Thanks a lot Bloo! You made a lot of good points, I will be sure to mention them when writing this!

    edit: ty iconic ◠‿◠
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Another cool set, Tomahawk :) Bloo mentioned a lot of good points, namely winning the weather war, which makes Heatran a helpful teammate for Sun teams, and some more specific instances of protection from revenge-killers, such as from Dugtrio and Terrakion.

    I'd provide teammates that can deal with Air Balloon Heatran and Hydration Vaporeon that this set cannot touch. Perhaps PursuitTar, EB Latios, or non-scarfed Rotom-W (w/ TB), or a Chlorophyll sweeper / Celebi / Virizion? How do you usually deal with these two?

    QC Approved (3/3)
  24. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Nidoqueen is good in Ubers!
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    Thanks for the approval Pocket!

    I'll be sure to mention good switchins to Air Balloon Heatran and Hydration Vaporeon. Myself I've been using Bulky DD Salamence and Ferrothorn to deal with those two respectively, with a Starmie as well, but I'll mention Rotom-W as a good teammate to deal with those two at once.
  25. Tomahawk

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    This is ready for GP!

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